Liu He Men @ Shaolin

[Blacktiger]

Hi just putting the question out to people who have trained or been to Shaolin.

Has anyone seen or know of monks/masters practising Liu He style kung fu at the temple while they have been there. :D

[shaoshishan]

Hi just putting the question out to people who have trained or been to Shaolin.

Has anyone seen or know of monks/masters practising Liu He style kung fu at the temple while they have been there. :D

Suggest you try to find more information about Master Shi Dejian, as he is the inheritor of Shaolin Xin yi ba, and Liu he is one of basic thoeries of shaolin traditional gongfu. go to video clips at www.shaolindj.com

[Blacktiger]

Cool thanks for the help. :)

[Blacktiger]

Thanks for the info but no joy.
Yes Liu He is one of basic thoeries of shaolin kung fu but it is also a whole system on its own, "Liu He Men or Six Harmonies kung fu".
I found nothing on the site that made any connection with Liu He Men to Master Shi Dejian.

[Shaolin Master]

One must be specific in the request.

ok, Songshan Shaolin do practice a series of Liuhe quan.

In Hebei there are two Liuhemen so to speak. THe original Muslim (Large system) and the Shaolin Liuhemen (of Liu De Kuan and descendants Wan Laisheng etc...).

Hebei martial arts are many and varied so there as a variety of shaolin based arts in the area.

I guess if you clarify the request which specific Liuhe then I will provide an answer.

Regards
Wu Chan Long

[Blacktiger]

The Shaolin Liu He men (of Liu De Kuan and descendants Wan Laisheng etc...) please. Thanks for the help I should have been clearer :D

[Shaolin Master]

Yes,

Some of Wanlaisheng's disciples came up from Fuzhou and still practice Liuhemen.
However, this is not a standard curriculum of Songshan as much as the previous training of some now resident monks/students.

Regards
Wu Chan Long

[Blacktiger]

Ok cool...Thanks :D

[dimmakseminar]

Dear Mr. Blacktiger:

The answer you seek will be provided by ninja. ninja trained at Shao-Lin, with Monks, and also mastered many Liu He Man techniques on the path to enlightenment.

Sincerely,

dimmakseminar.

[Blacktiger]

Ok cool - The only reason I asked is because although its a Shaolin style its not that common at the temple.

[ninja]

Lihemen is an old style the combines the theory of bagua, xingyi, taiji and shaolin temple style. For instance in the form you may move from shaolin lian huan punch ( or mabu to gong bu punch) to one of the 5 Xingyi punches. Liuhe is full of variety and quick directional changes like bagua. It's a very flowing style that emphasizes natural body movement and speed. Liuhemen are the forms but the real teaching of Wanlaishen involves training in ziranmen qigong and lohan shenda. Ziranmen teaches a series of natural circular movements for fighting. Emphasis is on natural shoulder and waist rotation in harmony with arm and legs. The movements are very compact with great attenion to elbow placement. Application is very imporatant in liuhe style.

There are a few sites where you can find info: ziranmen.com and sifuchenying.com

[Blacktiger]

Cool thanks for the info Ninja but Liu He Zi Ran Men is what I study so I am aware of everything you have mentioned, check my profile or check http://www.ziranmen.com/
our school website.
In Australia we study under Master Liu De Ming he is the 5th generation inheritor of the Liu He Zi Ran Men lineage.

Im not after info on what Liu He and Zi Ran Men is - I study Liu He Zi Ran Men, im asking the question:


Has anyone seen or know of monks/masters practising Liu He style kung fu at the temple while they have been there :confused:

[ninja]

When I was there for 5 weeks training with monk teachers I did not see any Liuhemen. The closest teacher I have seen that moves in a manner similar to ziranmen is Shi Dejian. I have only seen this master on video. His movement is fantastic. I train with Chenying in NYC. To me the Body Movement and Foot work are what makes liuhemen special. Shi Dejian teaches different forms but the body style has the quality of liuhe and ziran.

[Blacktiger]

Right thanks but as I said - Im after Masters/Monks who are practising or teaching Liu He style kung fu, forget Zi Ran Men.
As for Shi Dejian the styles he covers are not even close to Zi Ran Men and Liu He.
There is a bit of cross over with Xing Yi and of course Liu He Mantis but thats it.
All the foot work and body movement is Zi Ran Men there is nothing really special about Liu He footwork that all comes from the Zi Ran Men.
If you want to draw a comparison with Zi Ran Men it would be with Bagua. :confused:

[ninja]

Ziranmen has xingyi, bagua, and taiji fighting movements and qigong. It is completely based on taoist theory. It pulls together the basics of taoist martial arts into one practice. Dejian teaches different forms yes. Everyone teaches different forms. Even the same forms are taught differently by different teachers. I am talking about body movement. Of course the exact patterns will be different but the intention and flow are the same. The footwork is special in liuhe. I have studied many shaolin temple styles from various monk masters. The footwork in liuhe style is very unique and diverse.

[Blacktiger]

Look sorry but you really dont know what you are talking about.

Yes Zi Ran Men is based on ancient Taoist philosophy, Traditional Chinese Medical Theory
and, most importantly, the philosophy of 'One and Zero'. It combines physical training,
Chi kung, meditation and combat techniques. Through training, Zi Ran Men enhances
the spirit of the mind, regulates the circulation of Chi and develops physical sensitivity.

But Xing Yi, Bagua, and Taiji fighting movements - Ah no Im not sure where you are getting your info from but its just not correct.

As for Liu He foot work - its not unique or that special - maybe if your comparing Hulk Hogans footwork with Liu he, then you are on the mark.

Your getting it the wrong way round - the foot work/body movement that is unique is in relation to the Zi Ran Men not Liu He

Sorry but you really are out of wack. You said you study with Chenying in NYC if thats so and you are learning Liu He and Zi Ran Men then you would now what Im talking about :D

[ninja]

This is a quote from Liang Chao Qun.

" This internal Kung Fu school was created by Xu Ai Zhai also named "The Dwarf", who specialised in numerous styles of Taoïst Fights, from which the Zi Ran Men represents a synthesis. "

[Blacktiger]

Yes Dwarf Xu was the founder - No kidding !

Yes Zi Ran Men is a synthesis of many styles - actually around 17 arts....No kidding! Thats like saying Karate has lots of kicks and punches :confused: . It does not matter who you quote anyone who trains in Liu He and Zi Ran Men can tell you that.

Your giving very basic system stuff here.

Remember we are talking about Liu He and your confusion with the footwork and body movement - which is the signature of the Zi Ran Men not Liu He.

If your comparing old Shoalin forms with the Liu He - The only difference if you were being really really picky is it is a little more dynamic, in terms of body lightness and changes in direction.

You said you study Liu He Zi Ran Men what forms are you familiar with and how long have you been training :confused:

Look check this link http://www.ziranmen.com/artsframe.htm to the Zi Ran Men website and read to your hearts content, you will even see some pictures of Grandmaster Wan Lai Shen when he was really young. :D

Anyway back to my original question before this thread gets totally stuffed:

Has anyone seen or know of monks/masters practising Liu He style kung fu at the temple while they have been there.

[ninja]

Why do you have such an angry and bitter tone? You sound very negative. Why can't we have a conversation? If I'm inexperienced then why do you have to be arrogant and pretensious towards me? Have you studied shaolin temple forms? I studied shaolin style for 5 years with 2 monks living in the city. One is Shi Xing Peng or Zhang Llipeng. I then moved on to Chenying. Liuhe style is very complex in body movement. You have to pull the body style out of the form. And for example there is no Pao Chuan from Xingyi in shaolin temple forms. At least not in the more common forms. So that is certainly a unique step. Also in the Green Dragon form there are many bagua steps that you would never find in shaolin form. Shaolin forms never stray beyond a straight line, forward a backward. Liuhe is constantly moving at angles.

[NorthernShaolin]

The Shaolin Liu He men (of Liu De Kuan and descendants Wan Laisheng etc...) please. Thanks for the help I should have been clearer :D


The Cangzhou Wu Shu Zhi records states that Lui He Men was transmitted by Zhang Ming to Cao Zhenpeng in the Ming Dynasty. Cao taught his son, Cao Peng who then taught Shi Jinke, Shi Changchun, Zhang Maolong of Putozhen which spread to Hebei.

Li Guanming (who learned from Cao Peng), Tien Guichun and Wu Fengming brought Lui He Chuan to Cangzhou. Li Guanming taught Li Fenggang, Tong Cun, Wang Dianchen, Liu Yuling, and Tien Chungui.

Li Fenggang taught Liu Dekuan and Wang Zhengyi.

Liu Dekuan taught Liu Caichen and Zhao Xin Zhou.

Zhao Xin Zhou taught Wan Lai Sheng, Liu Xianwu, Zhou Yaqing, Zhao Pulin and He Zhigui.

[NorthernShaolin]

Also in the Green Dragon form there are many bagua steps that you would never find in shaolin form. Shaolin forms never stray beyond a straight line, forward a backward. Liuhe is constantly moving at angles.


Well the steps and directions in Green Dragon form are not unique nor specifically limited to Lui He. Since I know Green Dragon set, the directions and stepping are also similar in BSL and in BSL Lo Han. Both of these styles are not limited to just back and forward directions. Good examples are in BSL # 4, 8, 5, 7 and 10 and in BSL Lo Han # 1,2, 3, 4 and 5.

[Blacktiger]

Thankyou and Thankyou :D

Hey Northern thanks for the detailed history but you got me out of context when talking with Shoalinmaster on a previous post, I was trying to see if he had any fresh info but he didn't.

Im after anyone up there at the moment teaching Liu He, monks/masters anyone. A friend of our master runs a school up there we know of him of course but thats it.

By the way where did you pick up Green Dragon and do you have any of the others ?

[NorthernShaolin]

Okay, misread it.

Sorry that I cannot help you in your original question.

I originally learn Green Dragon and two other Lui He chuan sets (Lui He chuan and Black Tiger) from my sifu many years ago. Unfortunately he no longer is willing to teach this style save the first Lui He set. He currently uses this one set as a stepping stone or a transition point for students who want to move from an external style to an internal style, i.e., BSL to Hsing-i.

[NorthernShaolin]

Well all I can offer are some more names but I do not know if they are teaching. Sometimes these names will lead to their disciples who are currently teaching so these names may help you track down what you are looking for.

In the Fujian area, Wan Liai Sheng taught Sun Zongxiong, Hu Jinhuan, Huang Xiuyu and Gao Jianqing.

When Liu Dekuan went to Beijing he left a lineage thru Liu Caichen who taught Ma Yuqing, Wu Zizhen and Liu Wenhai.

Ma Yuqing's students are now in an oranization called Beijing Liu He Quan Reasearch Institute. Also there are Wu Zizhen's and Lu Caichen's students there too.

Some of Ma Yuqing's students are Zhang Xuchu, Zhang Guosen, Cao Fengqi, Li Yanrong, Liu Yugui, Ma Jinlong, Xu Digu, Li Zuoyan, Zhou Zhihua, Zhang Fengying, Zhao Hui, Yi Hongji, Ma Zhupo, Diao Feng'an, Wang Yulin, Hou Shiyong, Hao Jianhui, Chen Gangdeng.

Students of Wu Zizhen are in the Simim Martial Arts Society. They are Dai Yubin, Li Qingchuan, Song Dekui, Wang Shixun, Niu Baogui, ZangYuhe, Man Huifeng, Li Ziqiang, Song Chengkun, Yan Long, Ma Qingke, Wang Chun'gu, Wang Shaohua, Sun Changfu, Zhou Baokun, Sun Zhe, Zhang Huazhi, Xu Xungwei, ui Yujing, Niu Guangmao, and Zang Yong.

Li Yuanzhi taught in Taiwan and Huang Xuanting taught in Hong Kong.

In Switerland, there is Liu Yugui, and Deng Jixiang in Italy, and Zhang Bingshen in Poland and Yin Ruchuan in USA.

[Blacktiger]

Hey Northern

Thanks for the info its great stuff.

Its also interesting about the the use of the green dragon set going from external to internal style.

I checked out your homepage as well on your profile, great pictures and history.

I was wondering, do you have any info on Du Xin Wu ?

[NorthernShaolin]

Du Xin Wu or Tu Hsin Wu is reconized as one of China's 10 greatest fighters at the turn of the 20th century.

Du Xin Wu or Tu Hsin Wu was born in 1869 in Yan ban Tian Village in Cili County, Honan Provence. He started to learn martial arts from his uncle, Yan Ke, at the age 6. At the age of 10, his uncle sent Tu Hsin Wu to Mount Gaizi where he learned from a Taoist monk (name is unknown). Exactly what style he learn from this monk is not clear but at the age of 13 (1882), Tu became too proud of his own skills and went to Yanbantian village to challenged an opponent whom practiced Tuan style or Short Fist. Tu quickly defeated his opponent with one move (front sweep with his right leg, knocking his opponent off his horse). Later, after defeating several more challengers, a challenger named Wang who was a master of Shaolin Wu Chan Ch'uan (Shaolin Five Battle Fist). But instead of fighting, Wang offered to correct Tu's techniques. Tu soon realized Wang was a master and requested to be his disciple.

Wang sent his good friend, Hsu Liu who was from Kwangsi Provence, to teach Tu Hsin Wu the Art of Lightness or qinggong and Tu spend the next four years until 1886 perfecting the art.

In 1887, Tu went to work for an escort service in Sichuan Provennce which transported goods to Yunnan Provence. Areas around the borders of Kueichou and Yunnan Provences were danagerous with bandits and Tu's reputation grew with each encounter. Soon his reputation spread throughout southwestern China that bandits, save one, would stay away anythime they saw his flag flying in an escorted caravan. The one exception was the famous bandit, Li Lao Da. Li had a plan to win Tu's friendship and with that plan, Li would be the most feared bandit in China. Instead, Tu got Li drunk and killed Li with his own sword.

Some years later, Tu met his match in Sichuan Provence near Omei Mountains. During this time Tu was known as Chung Yuan Escort Bureau Chief, Tu Hsin Wu. Anyway to make a long story short, the challenger was an old man, known only as Hsu. It was in this match that it is record Tu used Liu He techniques against Hsu.

After Tu's initial punch to Hsu's chest, he follow with lighting speed, 'Black Dragon Searches the Sea' to Hsu's heart, followed by a double kick then with the technique, 'Three Rings Harness the Moon' and finally followed with the technique, 'Go thru the heart with the Foot' to Hsu's chest.

Hsu avoided all the strikes. Tu then attacked with the technique, 'Turn around the body back kick'. Now Tu had used this technique to kick heros all over China and he never missed until now. Next he used ' Lazy Dragon Turns its body' technique and finally he used his famous Shaolin Death Kick called 'Welcome at the Door Thrust Kick (Ying Men K'ou Tzu Tui). Again Hsu avoided Tu's attacks without attacking Tu and this left Tu stunned.

Realizing Hsu's high level skill, Tu requested to be his disciple and thus Hsu taught him Natural or Spontaneous Boxing for the next 8 years.

Tu Hsin Wu was a wealthy person compared to others and he really did not like to teach so it is said that he only personally taught 8 men his Natural Boxing and they were not at the same time.

Tu Hsin Wu passed away in 1953.

[Blacktiger]

Oh man thats great history. I always try and get info like this when the opportunity presents itself, thankyou.
Our master has lots of info and a whole book on the life of Du but its all in Chinese. Really we only get stories here and there about the masters in our lineage so im always hunting and looking for info. I guess I could start learning Chinese but that would mean less time to train. :)

So you are saying he started with Dwarf Xu or Hsu..is this the same person or ?

Do you have any stories from his triad days in Shanghai ?

Also Northern who is your master is he on your website ? The Curriculum looks fantastic. :D

[NorthernShaolin]

So you are saying he started with Dwarf Xu or Hsu..is this the same person or ?

Yes, old man Hsu is the same person, Dwarf Xu.

Sorry but I do not have any history on Tu's Shanghai days.

[Blacktiger]

Ok............. thanks for the info just the same. :)

[NorthernShaolin]

Blacktiger,

Sorry, but I didn't see your last question.

My Sifu is Wong Jack Man and his lineage is from Kuo Yu Chang via Yim Shan Wu. KYC and Wan Li Sheng were very good friends and respected each other skills. They often would trade ideas and theories and sets. YSW learned first Liu He Chuan from WLS and then BSL from KYC.

Also Tu was regarded as the last master to be able to use the Shaolin Death Kick. Witnesses stated that when Tu used this kick, it would come upclose to his body along Tu's center line and shoot out like a punch towards the opponent's chest or head. Obviously Tu's was very flexable beyond a normal person.

[Blacktiger]

Oh thats cool no drama.

Thats a very impressive lineage you have there. Great skills to be able to learn especially passed down from those guys, great stuff :)

As for Tu's Shaolin Death Kick - my sifu and I were talking about that very kick last night at class actually, its like a third punch. Sifu was saying that Grandmaster Wan had a kick like that passed on from Tu, straight up the front and bang. I think my sifu was saying he has some footage of Wan peforming the kick somewhere.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Blacktiger,

Your teacher's site says that you have "Qian Ba Zuan '1008 Movement Chi Kung'. . . . ."

Wow! a 1008 movement chikung set????
A 108 movement set would be a bit more believable :-)))
r.

[dimmakseminar]

Dear Faithful Readers:

The "Shao-Lin Death Kick"? I like it. Where do I sign up?

Sincerely,

dimmakseminar

[Mortal1]

The way you describe the kick is exactly how the three different monks I trained under teach a side kick.

[NorthernShaolin]

Except that this kick comes out from under the chin, like a third punch.

[Blacktiger]

Except that this kick comes out from under the chin, like a third punch.


Yeah thats it its not a side kick.

[Blacktiger]

Hi Blacktiger,

Your teacher's site says that you have "Qian Ba Zuan '1008 Movement Chi Kung'. . . . ."

Wow! a 1008 movement chikung set????
A 108 movement set would be a bit more believable :-)))
r.

No its not a 1008 movement chi kung set.

Qian Ba Zuan - means 1008 drilling hands, like chi reeling hands. You must complete the exercise 1008 times before you gain an understanding of the movement and get the full benefits from this chi kung exercise. :D
The 1008 is in no way related to the number of movements in the set.

It was a gift from a taoist master to Wan Lai Shen.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Hi just putting the question out to people who have trained or been to Shaolin.

Has anyone seen or know of monks/masters practising Liu He style kung fu at the temple while they have been there. :D

there is a Lie He form that is available on vid from wle.com (http://www.wle.com).

[Blacktiger]

The broad sword form ?

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

no, sorry. it's in the shaolin section and is part of a 2 tape pack. lie he is in the description of the tape, not in the title of the package.

there is a green dragon form available from Plumpub.com (http://www.plumpub.com) on the shaolin pages as well. they might also have your lie he shaolin form.

i believe there is a bunch of lie he type forms represented through wayfarer.com. but thier catalog is more extensive than thier web page.

northernpractitioner:
are the forms the same (except for the mantis stylised additions) from lie he shaolin school as compared to lie he mantis?

[Blacktiger]

there is a Lie He form that is available on vid from
wle.com.
this is the only Lie He form from before the lie he school being founded other than the styles of lie he style of shaolin and the lie he mantis which has seven forms. i think they are the same forms, as described by another forum member, but yet another stated they were of different orogenies with the same nuance of required skill development. in either case both members cited the lie he form from shaolin as the most probable origin to the rest of it.

Liu He and Liu He Mantis are very different. Liu He is a branch of Yu style from Shaolin. And the Liu He Mantis comes from Shandong Province. :)

[Blacktiger]

no, sorry. it's in the shaolin section and is part of a 2 tape pack. lie he is in the description of the tape, not in the title of the package.

there is a green dragon form available from Plumpub.com (http://www.plumpub.com) on the shaolin pages as well. they might also have your lie he shaolin form.

northernpractitioner:
are the forms the same (except for the mantis stylised additions) from lie he shaolin school as compared to lie he mantis?


Yes have seen those VCDS.

The forms for Liu He and Liu He Mantis are totally different.

Although not so well known as 'Seven Stars' and 'Mehua',
Liu He Praying Mantis is the third major school of
Praying Mantis Kungfu. The special characteristic of this school
is its use of continuous vertical (and sometimes horizontal)
circles which permit either striking, trapping or defending.

The fast vertical 'running hands' allow a range of offensive and
defensive techniques. Arm strikes to the opponent can use the edge
of the hand or the forearm. If the opponent blocks or parries, the
leading (circling) hand may grab while the other continues the attack.

This vertical circle, combined with advancing steps, provides speed and
Jin (power). Horizontal circling hands make use of the edge of the
palm or the wrist.

There are seven forms in Six Harmonies Praying Mantis, and each form has
its own characteristic and may be learnt and practised individually.

The stances are about 70/30 and are not as low as the other Mantis styles as the Master of this system took out all the monkey stepping as he thought it was not practical for fighting....Thats the most obvious thing you will see.
He did this after he had learnt Seven Stars etc.
The other thing is that is is purely for fighting everything is flat out attack.

:D

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Liu He and Liu He Mantis are very different. Liu He is a branch of Yu style from Shaolin. And the Liu He Mantis comes from Shandong Province. :)

sure. but which is the antecedant to the other?

there are analogs within cma. also, certain styles look like other styles and have definate stylistic genera which can be observed from one to another. great credence is given to each style represented as having it's own development. the style i practice was just such a style: my teacher developed it over time just to find that a shaolin abbot whom went semi public (because he left shaolin) has his own similar style but called it something different.

[Blacktiger]

Both are separate and independent of each other. Liu He Mantis does not look anything like Liu He.

:)

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Both are separate and independent of each other. Liu He Mantis does not look anything like Liu He.

:)

the question was: which came first?

example: the southern preying mantis form has been discusssed as being older than the style of mantis. the shaolin lie he form is older than the style of shaolin lie he. is lie he shaolin older than lie he tang lang? can you see the movement principles of lie he in lie he tang lang? if lie he tang lang is the third development of tang lang then the lie he principles were added to tang lang to make the new style. aside from mantis stylistic additions to the lie he style how are they different?

it just seems like the video study of arts avails itself to this redaction criticism method: to look for a historic starting point and search for analogs and antecedants to really see the progression of arts from one principle to another and into a style and back to a principle representational form. (lau gar)

i've seen lie he mantis and have given it a good hard look which is why i'm asking about the lie he shaolin if you know both well enough you should be able to deconstruct the erector set into it's component principles and unique peculiarities.

but you were the one asking about lie he shaolin, right? which is why i directed my question concerning this to northernpracticioner.

[Blacktiger]

the question was: which came first?

example: the southern preying mantis form has been discusssed as being older than the style of mantis. the shaolin lie he form is older than the style of shaolin lie he. is lie he shaolin older than lie he tang lang? can you see the movement principles of lie he in lie he tang lang? if lie he tang lang is the third development of tang lang then the lie he principles were added to tang lang to make the new style. aside from mantis stylistic additions to the lie he style how are they different?


Not sure which came first.

Liu He:

It combines soft and hard, internal and
external techniques. Liu He is based in the theory of six combinations : internally, cultivate
essence, energy and spirit. Externally, cultivate hands, eyes and body.
The purpose of this training is to develop an ideal state of health, protect the body's energy
and master self defence and retaliation.
This leads to a superior level of martial arts skill, total freedom of defence, a healthy body and long life.

" Eyes go with the mind, Mind goes with the Chi,
Chi goes with the Body, body goes with the hands,
hands go with the feet, feet go with the hips"

Liu He movement is firm, forceful, steady and accurate.
The heads moves like an inquisitive ghost, the chest sinks in
defence and extends in attack. The body floats, sinks and soars ,
jumps like a cat, dodges like a dog, rolls like a rabbit and turns
like an eagle.

"When one part moves, every part moves,
When one part is still, every part is still.
Move when the enemy moves, move like an avalanche

I explained Liu He Mantis in my previous post.

As for the movement principles of Liu He in Liu He Tang Lang? Yes the the priciples are the same. Liu He means Six Harmonies or combinations. But that dont look the same outwardly.

:D

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Not sure which came first.

As for the movement principles of Liu He in Liu He Tang Lang? Yes the the priciples are the same. Liu He means Six Harmonies or combinations. But that dont look the same outwardly.

:D


great. thanks.

[ReignOfTerror]

Suggest you try to find more information about Master Shi Dejian, as he is the inheritor of Shaolin Xin yi ba, and Liu he is one of basic thoeries of shaolin traditional gongfu. go to video clips at www.shaolindj.com

the link is dead.

[Brad]

Works fine for me :)

[Blacktiger]

Me three :)

[ninja]

Here is a another new website created by a senior student of Chenying's.

ziranmenusa.com

[Blacktiger]

Cool, Zi Ran Men USA - its starting to spread.

Also I found out the other day our master used to teach your Sifu he used to be one of his students :D

[ninja]

That's real cool. He said he was taught by many teachers. Do you think you will have videos to downlaod on your site in the future?

[Blacktiger]

There will be a new video/dvd out soon from Master Liu soon so I will keep you posted all Liu He and Zi Ran Men. But no video on the site coming up that I know of. :D

[ninja]

Great thanks. What is your opinion of the Liang Chaoqun vcd's? What do you think of his qing long?

[Blacktiger]

Not sure which ones you mean, are they from Plumpub ?

[ninja]

yes the one from plumpub

[Shaolin Master]

A lot of Wan Laisheng's students tend to have ziranised their Liuhequan. Thereby the power and flow often differ from those of there home in Hebei.

Also, some of the latter routines such as Liujiashi seem to be missing as most only practise until zimuquan. Of course quality is more important but from a point of completeness it is an interresting note.

[Blacktiger]

Liu He and Zi Ran Men go hand in hand. You dont stop Liu He when you begin Zi Ran Men you finish the whole system - You must have both, Both are taught at the same time. The Zi Ran Men side will affect your freedom of movement in terms of being able to apply Liu He applications.
Applications wise yes I agree Liu He is Zi Ran Men'ised but thats the whole idea natural movement/spontaneous action. As for the forms its not the case at all.

[Shaolin Master]

Are you suggesting that without ziranmen, liuhe is incomplete?
Are you also presuming that naturalness is not a facet of all chinese martial arts in the end? Noting that continuos reinforcement of an approach would transform natural from structural and that naturalness by simply aiming at it will lose all naturalness in its path.

So you mean that Lia Jia shi and other Liuhequan routines from Liu's family upper tree (before Grandmaster Wan Laisheng) are actually a component of Wan's descendants?

Thanks

[Blacktiger]

No Im not saying Liu He would be incomplete.

I didnt say anything about naturalness not being present in other arts either.

The great Grandmaster Wan learnt many systems, but he taught Liu He and Zi Ran Men.
If anything the Zi Ran Men enhances the Liu He and vice versa they benefit each other.
Like any art it evolves and Zi Ran Men being Daoist philosophy that involves harmonising with nature and naturalness definatley gives Liu He a enhancement......Great Grandmaster Wan didnt say one was good and one was bad or incomplete.

As for learning the complete Liu He system I dont know what other schools teach but we get taught the lot :D

[Shaolin Master]

:) The Lot.

Therefore would not ziranmen complement any other martial art (not just liuhe)?
How about Luohan Shen Da and Wan's taijiquan....do you practise these as well?
How do these fit into the equation.

[Blacktiger]

Yes Zi Ran Men does compliment other arts. You will see on the school website that Master Liu teaches Xing Yi, Bagua, Mantis, 64 Hand - all are enhanced by Zi Ran Men.

As for the Luo Han my Sifu has been taught this but it has not been added to the curriculum as such, but its there.

And yes we have Zi Ran Men or Wan Lai Shen's Tai Chi as well.... We have the complete system as passed down from the previous lineage holders to Master Liu. :)

[Vasquez]

Yes Zi Ran Men does compliment other arts. You will see on the school website that Master Liu teaches Xing Yi, Bagua, Mantis, 64 Hand - all are enhanced by Zi Ran Men.

As for the Luo Han its not taught at our school.

And yes we have Zi Ran Men or Wan Lai Shen's Tai Chi as well.... We have the complete system as passed down from the previous lineage holders to Master Liu. :)

Sounds really hard core. you're lucky to know that tacher.

[Blacktiger]

Very very lucky thats for sure

[ninja]

Black Tiger,

Have you seen the taiji vcd by the grandson of Du Xin Wu?

http://plumpub.com/images/VCD/vcd334.jpg

I was wondering if this is the taiji form Wan taught his students.

[Blacktiger]

Yep have seen a few of them.
Have not seen the Tai Chi one though, if your Du's grandson though you would assume its the same. :) As Wan was sent to Du to take him to the next level.

[ninja]

That's what I thought too. Do you know if your teacher teaches any of the other ziran forms in the series (du xin wu's grandson)? It's interesting to me that ziran has it's own weapons forms. I wonder if Wan taught those forms as well.

[traditional]

Hi all !

First of all, I've just read this post and really interesting ! :)

Actually, I'm learning the Liuhe style with master Yugui Liu (we founded a new school see http://www.wuhun.ch) and I'm looking for any existing documentation on the Liuhe style. Any suggestion ?

Thanks !

[Blacktiger]

Interesting - I checked the site - what is your teachers lineage as there is nothing on your site. And what forms are you being taught? :D