mantis108
05-27-2005, 11:54 AM
ABBOTT FUJU
Fuju is listed in modern Shaolin history as the abbot at Shaolin around 961 A.D.
Supposedly he invited 18 masters to Shaolin to teach MA. The so called Shaolin authentics is a record of what was taught and who taught it.
Fuju (Fortune plentiful) was a real person lived around 1242 CE (in his middle age) to 1275 CE. He was appointed by the Yuan dynasty imperial court to head the Buddhist organization using Shaolin temple in Henan as a base or the head office. During that time, he had quite a few contributions including developing a lineage chart for the monk order in Shaolin tradition. This act is recognized in the following dynasties especailly in Ming dynasty (1300s CE) when Zhu Yuanchang took over. There were very straight restrictions concerning the monk order. This is what most researchers tend to forget. Fuju also established 5 more Shaolin Temples around the country. The Fujian Shaolin (in Chuan Zhou) was build during the Tong dynasty (870s CE). So after 1275 CE there are 7 Shaolin temples altgether.
This is significant because this set the stage for people borrowing a household name years later.
So according to this, Wang Lang's Mantis is not a combination of 18 styles, but one of the styles only.
And it is apparent that "style" is more in the line of some principles of fighting as opposed to what we, in this era, call a style.
I agreed
It has been reported that the masters were invited to Shaolin(by a respected fellow at shaolin section) for the purpose of teaching monks MA so that they could take back some of the Bhuddist temples that had been over run by brigands, or taoists maybe.
This again could be borrowed from what happen to Henan Shaolin during Yuan dynasty. This might have been inspired by the legend of Jue Yuan who's also credited to have reorganized 18 Luohan Hands (supposedly handed down from Bodhidharma) into the 5 animal forms, etc... BTW Fuju as mentioned above was the one in charged of taking back all the Buddhist temple from the Daoist counter part.
I don't know of any solid proof of anything for this story as of yet, though it may exist and just needs to be gathered together. This is part of the research I am doing at this time.
Look forward for what you can discover in the future. :)
COMPARING 18
The Shaolin version of 18 families is not the same as the Mantis version but close enough.
We need to see physical evidences (ie forms)
In the Shaolin version Wang Lang is #17 and he overcomes the enemy, while in the Mantis version he overcomes all.
Notice the dif?
I concurred.
TRUE??
The story may actually be true as unlikely as it seems.
If true it happens just before the start of the Song dynasty.
Not too likely as records between 728 CE to 1242 CE about Shaolin are not available... but I am open to further examination.
The 2 figures in 18 family are in Water Margin novel this is true, but there is some arguement that the 1st 36 figures(or less) in that book are actual people.
And there is a lot to say about the star of the book, Sung Jiang, who had a lot written on his real world exploits.
Water Margin is based on the tales of Song dynasty Xuanhe reign (1119-1125CE). An rebellion took place in Shandong during that period. So the people in the story (if they were really people) would have lived during that time. Again this does not support 960s or early date.
FALSE??
On the other hand, it is more likely(sniff-sniff-wipes tears) that it is a recent addition. And there is a lot of evidence for that.
I suspect, and am also looking for proof, that 18 families is from a MA novel of some ancient time.
It is entirely possible that this is so.
NOVEL OF ZHAO
I have recently found a novel, of Zhao Kuangying as heroic fighter before he became emperor of the Song. This is somewhat well known in Chinese, but I don't think it has been translated into English.
I won't be surprised. ;)
The Historian Ma Mingda went to some length to argue the POSSIBILITY that Taizu Chuen and the history of longfist itself is entirely based on this MA novel.
This can't be discounted in researching the history of these MA styles that they all really started from ancient comic books.
Could you share this article?
ASSIGNMENT
Before more solid opinions can be formed it is important to continue with research.
1. read all pre republic MA novels and see if any of the 18 family members are there.
2. Is there an imperial edict from the emperor granting rights to Shaolin monks to re acquire their lands just before the Song dynasty?
3. Hantong is written about in history of the Song-official version. Lets get the exact quotes out.
4. Write the exact historical evidence for Lin Chong and Yen Ching to see the probability of them having really existed and when.
5. etc...
Great suggestions! Thanks, Kevin
Warmest regards
Mantis108
Fuju is listed in modern Shaolin history as the abbot at Shaolin around 961 A.D.
Supposedly he invited 18 masters to Shaolin to teach MA. The so called Shaolin authentics is a record of what was taught and who taught it.
Fuju (Fortune plentiful) was a real person lived around 1242 CE (in his middle age) to 1275 CE. He was appointed by the Yuan dynasty imperial court to head the Buddhist organization using Shaolin temple in Henan as a base or the head office. During that time, he had quite a few contributions including developing a lineage chart for the monk order in Shaolin tradition. This act is recognized in the following dynasties especailly in Ming dynasty (1300s CE) when Zhu Yuanchang took over. There were very straight restrictions concerning the monk order. This is what most researchers tend to forget. Fuju also established 5 more Shaolin Temples around the country. The Fujian Shaolin (in Chuan Zhou) was build during the Tong dynasty (870s CE). So after 1275 CE there are 7 Shaolin temples altgether.
This is significant because this set the stage for people borrowing a household name years later.
So according to this, Wang Lang's Mantis is not a combination of 18 styles, but one of the styles only.
And it is apparent that "style" is more in the line of some principles of fighting as opposed to what we, in this era, call a style.
I agreed
It has been reported that the masters were invited to Shaolin(by a respected fellow at shaolin section) for the purpose of teaching monks MA so that they could take back some of the Bhuddist temples that had been over run by brigands, or taoists maybe.
This again could be borrowed from what happen to Henan Shaolin during Yuan dynasty. This might have been inspired by the legend of Jue Yuan who's also credited to have reorganized 18 Luohan Hands (supposedly handed down from Bodhidharma) into the 5 animal forms, etc... BTW Fuju as mentioned above was the one in charged of taking back all the Buddhist temple from the Daoist counter part.
I don't know of any solid proof of anything for this story as of yet, though it may exist and just needs to be gathered together. This is part of the research I am doing at this time.
Look forward for what you can discover in the future. :)
COMPARING 18
The Shaolin version of 18 families is not the same as the Mantis version but close enough.
We need to see physical evidences (ie forms)
In the Shaolin version Wang Lang is #17 and he overcomes the enemy, while in the Mantis version he overcomes all.
Notice the dif?
I concurred.
TRUE??
The story may actually be true as unlikely as it seems.
If true it happens just before the start of the Song dynasty.
Not too likely as records between 728 CE to 1242 CE about Shaolin are not available... but I am open to further examination.
The 2 figures in 18 family are in Water Margin novel this is true, but there is some arguement that the 1st 36 figures(or less) in that book are actual people.
And there is a lot to say about the star of the book, Sung Jiang, who had a lot written on his real world exploits.
Water Margin is based on the tales of Song dynasty Xuanhe reign (1119-1125CE). An rebellion took place in Shandong during that period. So the people in the story (if they were really people) would have lived during that time. Again this does not support 960s or early date.
FALSE??
On the other hand, it is more likely(sniff-sniff-wipes tears) that it is a recent addition. And there is a lot of evidence for that.
I suspect, and am also looking for proof, that 18 families is from a MA novel of some ancient time.
It is entirely possible that this is so.
NOVEL OF ZHAO
I have recently found a novel, of Zhao Kuangying as heroic fighter before he became emperor of the Song. This is somewhat well known in Chinese, but I don't think it has been translated into English.
I won't be surprised. ;)
The Historian Ma Mingda went to some length to argue the POSSIBILITY that Taizu Chuen and the history of longfist itself is entirely based on this MA novel.
This can't be discounted in researching the history of these MA styles that they all really started from ancient comic books.
Could you share this article?
ASSIGNMENT
Before more solid opinions can be formed it is important to continue with research.
1. read all pre republic MA novels and see if any of the 18 family members are there.
2. Is there an imperial edict from the emperor granting rights to Shaolin monks to re acquire their lands just before the Song dynasty?
3. Hantong is written about in history of the Song-official version. Lets get the exact quotes out.
4. Write the exact historical evidence for Lin Chong and Yen Ching to see the probability of them having really existed and when.
5. etc...
Great suggestions! Thanks, Kevin
Warmest regards
Mantis108