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drayconn
05-27-2005, 11:40 PM
I have spent 9 months of my life locked in a house with 14 mentally and/or criminally insane teenagers. I have read the Tao Te Ching and many greek works of philosophy in that time. I hope everyone will listen to my theories and questions and respond to them. PLEASE NOTE although i say words like "truth" and "fact" i propose nothing more than theories and questions. ALSO PLEASE forgive my spelling and punctuation, i think a lot better than i type :)

There is no name for the beginning of everything, many have sought to name it, dao, chi, wu chi, god, ali, gravity, dark matter, anti-matter, divine light, lord, higher power, big bang, whatever! every culture has their own name for it and at least fifty others that most people think have nothing to do with it. In truth we cannot possibly begin to understand our higher power. Therefore we cannot begin to come up with a name for it. But for practical terms I will contradict myself and name this being the higher power.

Most people are so caught up in their religion's little insignificant details that they forget the Big Picture. The Big Picture is simply this: from the higher power everything else formed, for this i am sure. now im not so sure about what im going to say next but stay with me here. The higher power created all life on to two different intertwining planes, but what drives me crazy is why were these two planes that are completely seperate from its creator come into being? And why do they so plainly intertwine yet do so so mysteriously? And why/how do they intertwine with the third plane in a not so obvious (if thats the word) manner?

These three planes I call the Mind, Body, and Spirit. The body is not just refering to our own individual bodies but all living tissue including viruses (some scientists believe that viruses are not actual living organisms because they do not react to their surroundings).

The mind, so much and so little is known about our human minds. And almost nothing is known about other living organisms' minds. We know so much psychology about how the human mind acts and reacts. What we dont know is why. Some scientists try to explain it but something i have never come across is how can living cells have memory thats almost like a computer? Is there a secret language our brain uses like a computer does binary?

What I have said above is mostly questions, now i will try my best to only state theories below

(Below I give credit to "Inherit the wind" for most of this)
Prodistants and Catholics (cristians) and athiest evolutionists:
Why are you guys arguing? your both right! Let me explain, the world was created in six days, but god did that before humans came up with a universal time, so what is a day in the bible? couldn't it possibly be a year, a decade, or even to go as far as an "era" in scientific terms? Hey, god is god, He can see time as how he wants, so he could make a scientific era pass by Him in a day, (think SimEarth a boring but educational game), so what the first day he created light? so after he's done with shaping the universe he focuses on our little part of it and takes 14 billion years or whatever time it takes in scientific terms and he makes the sun, but its only a day to him. So he does that with all the other days too. point being, evolutionist and christian= same thing.

Daoism and Bhuddism:
Just to let u know, im daoist and i contradict bhudda and bhodidarma. The basic principal of bhuddism to my knowledge is that life is suffering and humanity's goal is to end this suffering, right? No, stupid. Life is a balance between Yin and Yang and i believe suffering falls into only one of those categories. It's counterpart is Happiness. If we eliminate one we eliminate the other. If suffering goes away so does happiness. We CANNOT live without suffering and be happy because if we were only happy we would not have a reference point to judge our feelings so we would just plain be. Well sorry but im bipolar and it is my belief that i cannot eliminate any of my feelings from existence. Even if i could I would rather be happy and sad than just plain be. Ever read the Giver? Ever hear the saying "It's better to love then loss than never to have loved at all"?
BOTTOM LINE: no suffering=no happiness

shen_lung_yi
05-28-2005, 06:18 AM
Interesting take on things......

I also am not a Buddhist but there is something amiss with the whole suffering thing.

Gautama noted that life was full of suffering and mainly that suffering came from peoples attachment to material things, people, events, etc. If you look at it from that standpoint than suffering is addiction. Most people on this planet are addicted to something in some form. You may not even notice it. Gautama was trying to find a way for himself to end the addictive cycle and became enlightened by destroying the addictive personality. Thus he felt the need to help others do this. That is Buddhism in a nutshell IN MY OPINION. :)

Now also my opinion, where Buddhism fails........It is up to people to liberate themselves.....no holy person can make it so.......people are responsible for their own condition, whatever that may be. The Dali Lama had said that he was "here to liberate the world." It is up to the individual to to this for themselves. For some, it will take many "lifetimes" (I use that term loosley) to gain enlightenment.

Just my 2 cents.

All the best,

Ian

sk8fool
05-28-2005, 08:34 AM
I envy the cat that can do nothing and be happy

shen_lung_yi
05-28-2005, 09:14 AM
I envy the cat that can do nothing and be happy

We can learn much from cats, who are masters of Wu Wei.

Scott R. Brown
05-29-2005, 02:30 AM
Hi shen_lung_yi

Chan Buddhism does teach that we enlighten ourselves through our own efforts. As Hui-Neng, 6th patriarch of Chan in direct line from Bodhidharma says, the essence of mind is inherent within all of us. It requires no teaching, no scriptures, no temple, no ritual, or monastery!

Hi drayconn,

Congratulations on discovering Lao-Tzu. I hope you continue to discover greater insights during your studies.

You are asking many of the right questions! As a new student of Tao you will have much to ponder.

When considering Yin-Yang and the interaction of opposite principles it is important to understand that the concept as commonly expressed is designed to communicate a more complex principle that does not mean opposites in the way that most people think of opposites. For the sake of ease of communication the idea of interdependent opposites is used, however it is not quiet accurate. What Yin-Yang truly illustrates is contrasting principles and not necessarily opposite principles. Please allow me to give an example:

Let us say we have 3 cups of water.

One cup of water is 40*F, the second is 60*F and the third is 80*F.

The question arises, “Is the 60*F cup hot or cold?”

It is neither and both at the same time. On one hand it is merely a cup of water with an arbitrary measurement of 60*F, but on the other hand we perceive or experience it as hot or cold depending upon which other cup it is contrasted with. It is warm when contrasted with the 40*F cup, but cold when contrasted with the 80*F cup. Inherently it is neither; it takes on one characteristic or the other depending upon the context. The 60*F cup of water has no inherent properties without something to contrast it with. There is no cup, no water, and no temperature without other factors to contrast against them.

If we take this same principle and apply it to happiness and suffering we will discover that Yin-Yang does not illustrate the necessity for the existence of suffering, only something to contrast with happiness. We could just as easily contrast the experiences of happy and happier, or even happy, happier, happiest!

What determines the quality of our experiences is the attitude with which we choose to interpret our experiences. Here is another example:

Let us say I have been planning a picnic to take my girlfriend on for the coming weekend. I have been planning it for weeks and I intend to ask her to marry me. The day arrives and a storm occurs making me unable to fulfill my desired goal. I am likely to be disappointed. The intensity of my disappointment will be proportional to my level of emotional attachment to the goal. The greater the attachment the greater the disappointment!

Now let us say I have a neighbor who is a farmer. His crops need the water from the rain to be productive. The more rain for the farmer the better for his crops and the less water he must purchase for irrigation which will mean higher profits. To the farmer the rain is a blessing; to me it is a curse. The farmer and I experience the same event but our reaction to it differs based upon what we bring to the event, that is, our own expectations and desires. It is how we choose to interpret an event that determines how we experience it.

The original purpose of Buddhism was to inform individuals that the origin of our emotional suffering is within us and to provide a solution for resolving the distress we experience. We are responsible for our own suffering through our own expectations. Emotional discontent (unhappiness) arises when we don’t get what we want. We make a requirement in our minds, something like, “To be happy I NEED that girl to like me!” When “that girl” does not return my affection, I am very unhappy. Or another example: I am driving down the street and another motorist cuts me off. I get angry and flip him the bird! The origin of my anger is not the man who cut me off, but my own expectations of how I expect others to treat me. When I am not treated in the manner I EXPECT I get angry. It is my emotional attachment to the expectation of how I wish to be treated that is the source of my anger. It is my attachment to the idea that I NEED this woman to love me that breaks my heart. In life most people blame others for their unhappiness when we are responsible for it ourselves.

Mikkyou
05-29-2005, 06:06 AM
bhuddism to my knowledge is that life is suffering and humanity's goal is to end this suffering, right? No, stupid. Life is a balance between Yin and Yang and i believe suffering falls into only one of those categories. It's counterpart is Happiness. If we eliminate one we eliminate the other. If suffering goes away so does happiness. We CANNOT live without suffering and be happy because if we were only happy we would not have a reference point to judge our feelings so we would just plain be. Well sorry but im bipolar and it is my belief that i cannot eliminate any of my feelings from existence. Even if i could I would rather be happy and sad than just plain be. Ever read the Giver? Ever hear the saying "It's better to love then loss than never to have loved at all"? The four noble truths are like this:life has suffering(I think we all can agree on that)
The cause of suffering is attachment to the stimuli the craving of always wanting more (a bigger tv a bigger house a better car wanting to become the boss.)
The way to end this attachment is become enlighten(knowing all these things are tempeory and will not last(this goes for emotions as well.)The way to obtain this enlightment is to follow the 8fold path which leads to a correct body mind and speech.What Buddhism has done as helped people understand their pain find a logical meaning behind it.When the person understand what is causing their pain
then they can treat it however is appropiate.

the essence of mind is inherent within all of us. It requires no teaching, no scriptures, no temple, no ritual, or monastery! That is quite interesting seeing as the 6th patriarch of Chan was enlighten by an actual sutra
the Dimond cutter.Then went to an actual temple where he became the 6th patriarch and I am sure there was some ritual for his initation.

sk8fool
05-29-2005, 12:27 PM
When considering Yin-Yang and the interaction of opposite principles it is important to understand that the concept as commonly expressed is designed to communicate a more complex principle that does not mean opposites in the way that most people think of opposites.

So it is like a compliment. When your body is too cold(yin), you use heat(yang) unitll you bring your body to a comfortable temperature(balance). If you get too hot(yang) you cool(yin) yourself down.

Scott R. Brown
05-29-2005, 05:58 PM
Hi Mikkyou,

You have made a very interesting point! Perhaps I may clarify. First of all let me say that essence of mind being immanent within our own mind is stated numerous times within Hui-Neng’s sutra. You might say it is central to his teachings!

It would be more accurate to say that Hui-Neng’s enlightenment was STIMULATED by hearing the Diamond Sutra, as water stimulates the growth of a plant. If the principles of enlightenment had not already been present (immanent) within Hui-Neng’s mind he would not have been enlightened no matter how many times he heard the sutra. If the principles of growth were not already present within a plant no amount of water would stimulate growth. If it was the Diamond Sutra that had caused Hui-Neng’s enlightenment it would have this same effect on everyone. It was what was already within Hui-Neng’s mind that was the source of his enlightenment!

When Hui-Neng heard the Diamond Sutra he recognized that it articulated what was already present within his mind. Hui-Neng teaches that all activity occurs within the mind. He relates in his sutra an event during his life concerning two monks arguing about a banner waving in the wind. One monk argued it was the wind moving and the other argued it was the banner moving! Hui-Neng, overhearing the discussion, commented it was neither the banner nor the wind that truly moved, but the mind!

Hui-Neng points out that each mind responds to a different stimulus for enlightenment and that no matter how often one performs a specific act or recites a specific sutra, if the mind is not ready for enlightenment, it will not occur.

Enlightenment cannot truly be called a “thing” it is not a piece of clothing we put on or something we acquire over time, it is a “perspective” a manner of perceiving life. If we read something, but are unable to put it into practice or understand the meaning it provides no benefit for us.

Hui-Neng was not officially a monk until years after his enlightenment. He received no formal initiation into the order until after he was the established patriarch. I believe it was over seven years! When he was admitted to the monastery of the 5th patriarch he was hidden away in the kitchen for his own safety to protect him from the prejudices of the other monks. He received the bowl and robe of authority in secret for the same reason. Hui-Neng eliminated this formal transfer of authority because it is unnecessary and causes a stumbling block for those with lesser maturity and understanding.

I hope this clears up some misunderstanding!

Scott R. Brown
05-29-2005, 06:08 PM
Hi sk8fool,

Yes! That is one way to look at it!

However, keep in mind that we each will “feel” hot or cold at a different temperature. So it is our own perception that gives it meaning to us. The contrast of “hot and cold” are the same for everyone, but the perception of “hot and cold” are unique to each individual. My 8 year old son is able to tolerate a much colder environment than anyone else in the family. He does not perceive cold in the same manner as I do, so he does not feel the need for warmth at the same ambient temperature as I do.

But your comment about the dynamic interplay between contrasting principles to achieve a “happy medium” is quite accurate.

sk8fool
05-29-2005, 11:23 PM
I remeber from reading about qigong that the body is born yang, and that being too yang will wear your body down, causing aging. So you must learn to apply yin to cool down the body, although if you are too yin that causing the body too be sick. All yin causing the body to cease moving(dead).

If you think about liquid, the hotter the liquid is, the faster the molecules of that liquid are moving. If the liquid is too cold however it stops and freezes. However unlike liquid the body cannot simply un-freeze and life exist again. certian parts of the brain can be stimulated post mortum and cause spasism in a corpse, although what prevents a body from being repaired and started back up? Does the brain just flush itself of all memory? And if not, how would it be posible to 'jump-start' the bioelectronics of the nervous system?

Scott R. Brown
05-30-2005, 12:44 AM
The latest theory of aging involves little protective tails on the end of chromosomes called telomeres. Over time the telomeres do not replicate properly and small mutations in the chromosomes occur that result in inaccurate replication causing the aging process.

On one hand, if reincarnation exists then there is not really death, just transition. On the other hand if death is final I agree with Monty Python, if we come from nothing and we go back to nothing, what have we lost? NOTHING!!

I prefer to think we continue after physical death, but what actually occurs we will have to wait to see for ourselves!

Mikkyou
05-30-2005, 06:31 AM
It would be more accurate to say that Hui-Neng’s enlightenment was STIMULATED by hearing the Diamond Sutra, as water stimulates the growth of a plant. If the principles of enlightenment had not already been present (immanent) within Hui-Neng’s mind he would not have been enlightened no matter how many times he heard the sutra. I think alot of what your saying is he already had Buddha nature and the Dimond sutra stimulated his enlightment.
but he goes on to say ritual and chanting of sutra are not ways to become enlighten I find to be ironic seeing as both ritual chanting of sutra also stimulate
enlightment where the practicer "becomes a buddha in this very life time"

Hui-Neng points out that each mind responds to a different stimulus for enlightenment and that no matter how often one performs a specific act or recites a specific sutra That interesting seeing as he has no knowledge of any inner training with tantic sects or other esoteric sects I find that comment to be uneducated. All and all I think Hui-Neng should show more respect to sutras
and other Buddhist teachings seeing.I understand Kukai had a very interesting
essay on the differences of exoteric and esoteric buddhism as well as taoism and confucian.

TaiChiBob
05-30-2005, 09:25 AM
Greetings..

"Do not walk in the footsteps of others.. seek what they sought, on your own path".. words worth careful considerstion..

We may argue and compare interpretations of the experiences of others, Masters, Gurus, Gods, etc.. but, understanding is a solitary endeavor, a willingness to have your own experience, to let the universe reveal itself to you.. The words of others may point the way for a smoother or quicker access to your own experience.. but, the experiences of others are not your experiences.. Readings of the Sutras and so many other inspired writings are "fingers pointing the way", not the "way" itself.. That is the central notion of Tao (translated as "the Way"), intended to inspire us to find our own "way".. my undersatnding is that the "way" refers to the "way things are".. and my journey is to experience things, as they "are".. things change naturally, the more we choose to effect change according to individual or cultural or social preference, the more we impede natural change, resulting in individual or cultural or social conflicts.. Scott has insightfully noted that expectation is central to suffering.. one of my mentors says, "great expectations lead to great disappointments".. "expect nothing and everything is a gift"..

"Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional".. suffering is a choice we make, not an inherent condition.. Pleasure and pain, basic human responses to stimuli, and variable in their conception according to individual preferences and prejudices.. but, central to all human experience.. joy and suffering, attachments to pain and pleasure, set the stage for categorizing the the human experience by levels of desirability.. it is inevitable that we will find favor with pleasure rather than pain, but.. accepting their interdependency as essential to the human experience will set the stage for balance and advancement in the depth of understanding our own interdependent nature..

I accept Taoism (philosophical as opposed to religious) not because i have trained myself in its ways, but because it most closely approximates that which i intuit as "so".. from which, i do train is some its ways and reject others, but .. i largely find it to add value to my journey, it can impart clarity, essential in seeing the experiences as they "are", not as we favor them (to the degree that we can see so clearly)..

Drayconn's "body, mind and spirit" description is interpreted a little differently by me.. the Chinese "3 Harmonies" would be Heaven, Earth and Man.. with my interpretation as: Body = Earth, form and substance.. Mind = Man, consciousness and self-awareness.. Spirit = Heaven, all that is.. with this, i sense that Man or Mind is the interface whereby Heaven or Spirit assumes an individual perspective of physical (Body/Earth) experiences.. this model has consistently satisfied my ponderings, but is in no way asserted as "truth"..

Be well, and enjoy the journey..

Scott R. Brown
05-30-2005, 03:41 PM
Hi Mikkyou,

I understand your feelings! I have a friend who considers himself a Buddhist who is unhappy with Hui-Neng as well. He thinks Hui-Neng is unfairly critical of meditation, however. I believe both his and your criticisms stem from misunderstanding Hui-Neng’s teachings. Remember "The Sutra of Hui-Neng" is itself a “Sutra”! That means it is a recognized sacred writing of Buddhism. If one considers himself a Buddhist it might be more beneficial to consider they are misunderstanding Hui-Neng than to disregard his teaching. Hui-Neng does not discard sutra reading or meditation outright! He never teaches they are not beneficial, he states they are not “necessary”! Essence of mind is immanent in our mind. Hui-Neng does not criticize either practice only unproductive application of the activities.

Hui-Neng does not criticize those who read Sutras. He teaches that reading the Sutra’s without understanding their meaning and putting them into practice is unproductive. There are a number of stories within the text concerning monks who assiduously recited specific sutra’s for years without ever grasping their meaning or putting their teachings into practice. Hui-Neng counseled the monks to not just recite the sutra, but practice their teachings. Each monk, upon explanation of the meaning of their sutra of choice by Hui-Neng, realized their “essence of mind”. One particular monk went back to reciting a sutra, and Hui-Neng is not found criticizing the activity.

On the point of mediation, Hui-Neng does not criticize meditation at all. He teaches that meditation on emptiness is unproductive and misses the point of meditation! He then defines what he means by emptiness! He states that many who meditate on emptiness do not rightly understand the concept. Believing that emptiness means “vacuity”, “absence of thought” is an erroneous belief he says.

The Buddhist term for “emptiness” is Sunyata! It is from a Pali word, Sunnata, whose root means, “to be swollen” as in “swollen with pregnancy”! This implies swollen with POTENTIAL!!! Emptiness is not “absence of all things” or “vacuity” it is “FULL WITH ALL THINGS”!!! The idea of emptiness then means to be free from attachment to a fixed idea of self which allows us to be filled with ”EVERYTHING”! This is the condition of Full Potentiality, where all things are potentially possible!! (Hi!! TaiChiBob!!! :) ) It is the attachment to a fixed idea of self that restricts our ability to realize this condition of being. This condition of Full Potentiality is not empty of anything! If it is full of Everything, it contains all things. As Hui-Neng says:

Learned Audience, when you hear me talk about the Void, do not at once fall into the idea of vacuity, (because this involves the heresy of the doctrine of annihilation). It is of the utmost importance that we should not fall into this idea, because when a man sits quietly and keeps his mind blank he will abide in a state of 'Voidness of Indifference'. Learned Audience, the illimitable Void of the universe is capable of holding myriads of things of various shape and form, such as the sun, the moon, stars, mountains, rivers, men, dharmas pertaining to goodness or badness, deva planes, hells, great oceans, and all the mountains of the Mahameru. Space takes in all of these, and so does the voidness of our nature. We say that the Essence of Mind is great because it embraces all things, since all things are within our nature. When we see the goodness or the badness of other people we are not attracted by it, nor repelled by it, nor attached to it; so that our attitude of mind is as empty as space.

"Common people attach themselves to objects without; and within, they fall into the wrong idea of 'vacuity'. When they are able to free themselves from attachment to objects when in contact with objects, and to free themselves from the fallacious view of annihilation on the doctrine of 'Emptiness' they will be free from delusions within and from illusions without.”

"In the functioning of the Essence of Mind and in conversation with others, outwardly we should free ourselves from attachment to objects, and inwardly, we should free ourselves from attachment to the idea of Emptiness.

I hope this clarifies Hui-Neng's meaning for you!

Mikkyou
05-30-2005, 06:09 PM
I respect Hui Neng however I choose to not to follow his method of presenting Dharma.

Lowlynobody
06-03-2005, 07:01 AM
If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite - William Blake

:)

drayconn
06-04-2005, 12:26 AM
my diagnosis is bipolar type 1 severe with pyschotic episodes. that can easily be considered criminally or mentally insane if its not controlled, fortunatly i have little knowledge of the spiritual plane and use it to my best advantage

what im trying to say is that emotions can come from the physical plane and arent just a part of the mental plane. i can only relate this to people who dont have mood disorders by saying this: PHYSICAL PAIN, you feel it in your body but isnt it just like any other emotion? try dwelling on it, and dont dwell on the mental plane's emotions that stem from the pain like despair or anger, focus on that raw physical PAIN, we(kung fu disciples) are accustomed to it because we feel pain all the time when we stretch and hit things. try it sometime
(below is something interesting for those who dont have mood disorders, a little introduction to our world)
now for those of you that have a mood disorder (a REAL one not some pansy as* crap like minor depression) im talking servere depression, servere anxiety disorder, and my all time favorite (sarcasm) bipolar (milds and type 2's dont count)

Try not taking your meds (DO NOT DO THIS IF YOU HAVE CONTROL OVER YOUR PHYSICAL SELF) you must either be completely locked up without your consent or physically restrained for a long period of time for this to be completely safe and successful. Your meds come from the physical plane and therefore supress the emotions that stem from the physical plane, HOWEVER, the emotions are still there and as a result mental plane emotions stem. which is why meds dont make us completely normal, now when you feel that raw physical emotion that isnt held back from meds ESPECIALLY when its been building up from being supressed by meds, it is a feeling i cannot describe, and it is one i try not to express, if you need help supressing this physical plane emotion take my advice:

*medication, because it is the purest form of the physical plane
*physical exercise, next purest
*DO NOT TRY TO OVERIDE PHYSICAL EMOTIONS WITH YOUR MIND ALONE that is called enlightenment and i can guarentee you that is something you do not have, if you do ever achieve it you would no longer have any sort or mental diagnosis which ties into the next thing
*THE SPIRITUAL PLANE CAN DOMINATE ANYTHING everyone knows this, but hardly anyone knows why or how, be very careful treading in this domain. for there is a lot of false belief in this area (example: prayer heals physical pain) this is the placebo effect and nothing more, which does not come from the spiritual plane, tai chi chuan and chigong/qigong training is what i recommend

more later

YuanZhideDiZhen
07-03-2005, 04:13 PM
Greetings..

"Do not walk in the footsteps of others.. seek what they sought, on your own path".. words worth careful considerstion..

..

where did you hear that? i said that to someone in a bar just two weeks ago!

TaiChiBob
07-05-2005, 05:57 AM
Greetings..

I was in a bar a couple of weeks ago and some wierdo was spouting philosophy... :D

No, actually it was a quote from Krishnamurty.. but, one that i feel represents a valid concept...

Be well...

Repulsive Monkey
07-05-2005, 08:37 AM
At the beginning of the thread it was hinted that the point of life is to balance Yin and Yang.
This isn't so, the point is to transcend them surely. Yin and Yang are the components which uphold the Buddhist idea of duality.

The Buddha taught that all life is suffering because he saw that poeple clinged to attachment in some way or another to the 5 aggregates. It was this clinging that maintained attachment either thorugh being repelled away bad things or over enamoured with good things, which is naturally the state of attachment sustaining duality.

The idea I understand is to transcend good and bad and arrive at truth, just like the idea of Taoism isn't to get caught and stuck in Yin and Yang but to return to it's mother, namely Wuxi.

When it was quoted "It is better to of loved than lossed then of never to of loved at all" I think on one level its better to of never known love at all and one would still be happy, you just would be ignorant of what loving was all about. That doesn't mean being ignorant makes you low and upset.
People lead happy lives without knowledge of tonnes of facts, figures and experiences, however it is the lifting the veil of delusion that dual thinking attachment is which Taoism and Buddhism ardently urge us all to try and achieve ultimately.

TaiChiBob
07-05-2005, 11:09 AM
Greetings..

Yin and Yang are.. well, Yin and Yang.. so what? life dual in nature and by definition, it's a wonderful gift.. why do so many seek to hide from it as monks and hermits.. Whether we have little knowledge or lots of it is of little consequence compared to how we use it.. Buddha taught that life is suffering, i don't see it that way.. it is what you choose it to be, if you you have the will to manifest your choices.. so far, even the "bad stuff" is "good".. there's nothing to transcend.. The "point of life" is to live. As the sages say, enlightenment is ordainary.. before enlightenment, chop wood/carry water.. seeking enlightenment, many wonderful paths.. reaching enlightenment, chop wood/carry water.. if one chooses to be a slave and does so well.. are they any less of a master?

Be well..

Scott R. Brown
07-06-2005, 09:16 AM
Hello Gentlemen,

Clinging IS attachment, but the attachment is an emotional phenomenon and not necessarily an intellectual one. It is the emotional attachment to good and bad effects or phenomena that cause unpleasant consequences, not the intellectual recognition of good and bad events, phenomena or experiences. Good and bad remain, how we perceive and experience them changes!

When we emotionally attach ourselves to anything we run the risk of creating unpleasant consequences. It is the emotional attachment (clinging) that creates unpleasantness, not the actual experience. If we wish to avoid or ameliorate unpleasant consequences then there are methods of living life that may be followed. One method is to cease clinging to the worldly effects of our actions (as taught by Buddha) and realize that true balance comes from within and is not created by worldly actions.

Unpleasant effects (experiences) are not inherent within any worldly event. They are a consequence of our attitude towards those events. Living in balance does not eliminate the rhythmic interplay of contrasting experiences, (The Principles of Yin-Yang) it merely changes the way in which we interpret phenomena and thereby how we experience them. Yin-Yang does not disappear; good and bad does not disappear; only un-necessary unpleasant emotional consequences disappear. This is why the sages say they gain nothing and lose nothing through realization of the Truth, the Buddha nature. Life doesn’t change, how we experience it changes because our perspective changes. All changes occur internally within our mind and are manifested by how we apply ourselves to life’s experiences. Emotional feelings are neither here nor there, good nor bad; they come and go as they will. If something is painful we feel the pain but do not nurture the pain which un-necessarily prolongs the experience of pain. If something pleasant occurs neither do we nurture it or attempt to hold on to it, for this enhances the sense of loss when it dissipates of it own accord. When “not clinging”, we neither cling to the pleasant, nor to the unpleasant. We experience, then allow the experience to pass according to its natural processes.

We must have contrast (Yin-Yang) in order to have awareness and experiences; otherwise there would be nothing to know and nothing to experience! If we didn’t experience the contrasting effects of Yin-Yang we would not experience anything. All experiences are determined by other experiences they contrast with. All effects are defined by other effects. We will always experience hot and cold, good and bad! It is how we react to hot and cold, and good and bad phenomena that changes not the contrasting phenomena themselves.