Full Contact Chi Sao

[Mannie]

Hi Everyone - Mannie again.

Does anyone outhere practice full contact Chi Sao?
If you do can you please tell me:
- Do you strike to the head as well as body?
- Do you use head guards - if yes / what type?
- Are you static or mobile?
- What other safety equipment do you use?
- What contact % are you using?

Your help is appreciated in this endevour as we are trying to put together a full contact aspect to Chi Sao for our own training and growth.

[KPM]

Hi Everyone - Mannie again.

Does anyone outhere practice full contact Chi Sao?
If you do can you please tell me:
- Do you strike to the head as well as body?
- Do you use head guards - if yes / what type?
- Are you static or mobile?
- What other safety equipment do you use?
- What contact % are you using?

Your help is appreciated in this endevour as we are trying to put together a full contact aspect to Chi Sao for our own training and growth.


No. We don't do "full contact" Chi Sau. From my group's perspective, that's not what Chi Sau is for. Chi Sau is not fighting or sparring. It is a drill to teach flowing, sensitivity and reflex reaction. If you are going after your partner and trying to really hit him, then you might as well be actually sparring. The Chi Sau rolling platform is not the best platform for sparring. Squaring off from a distance so that you must close the gap is the better platform for sparring. Chi Sau responses/reflexes will show up in that context when contact is made, but in my opinion Chi Sau and sparring should be two separate training modes. Both are important and each emphasizes the development of different attributes.

Keith

[Ultimatewingchun]

Keith is correct.

[stonecrusher69]

mannie..I sometimes practice what you call full contact chi sao.I don't see anything wrong with it,but I don't consider it sparring.With some gear on I'm able to use more power in my strikes say 70-80% where as in regular chi sao you have to control you power.I strike to the head ,body all over.I find when I'm wearing gear on I tend to get hit more.Yes I mobile also.Use everything you have when you do chi sao never just stand there MOVE...

[lada]

What is full contact? Do you mean actually striking during Chi Sau? I think that would be good training. It would be different from doing the exercises for their massage and strength and sensitivity training aspects.

I think you have to move. It is very easy for people who practice Chi Sau to get stuck in the stance. They concentrate on the proper stance so much that when they have to move as in step forward or step back, they hesitate. They want to stay planted in one spot. I felt that was a real drawback to Wing Chun. I had a real problem learning how to be mobile after a couple of years of Wing Chun. It could have been just me guys so don't get defensive about the style. ;)

% contact? Well that depends. If someone knows internal power, you don't want them hitting you. If you are hitting enough so that the person knows they got hit, not just a patty cake slap, that would be OK in my opinion. That teaches people to hit instead of patty cake. People will train themselves to hold their power without realizing it. They need to hit once in awhile so they know what it feels like to let go. To find out if their fist or hand is held properly.

If you patty cake and your fist or hand is held improperly, it doesn't matter. If you hit someone with an improper fist or hand, you might break your hand, twist your wrist or break a finger. Twist your wrist or finger during hard training once or twice and you will learn real quick to make a proper fist or hand.

[YongChun]

When one of our members visited Wong Shun Leung’s club in the late 1980’s, she said bleeding noses and split lips were common at least in the classes she attended. Is this full or partial contact?

How about:

full impact chi sau:: 100% impact.
Full contact chi sau: 100% contact

0% contact: not touching
1% contact: touching at the wrist
5% contact:touching using the whole forearm
20% contact: arms and legs touching
100% contact: totally embraced on the ground

0% impact: fly a fist towards the guys face but don’t touch
5% impact: light hit to the body
50% impact: knock the guy on his butt
100% impact: knock the guy unconscious

Ray

[Edmund]

When one of our members visited Wong Shun Leung’s club in the late 1980’s, she said bleeding noses and split lips were common at least in the classes she attended. Is this full or partial contact?
..
..


That's partial.

I'm with Kieth. Only use partial contact.

[reneritchie]

Chi Sao for sensitivity
San Sao for reality

[Ultimatewingchun]

Chi Sao for sensitivity
San Sao for reality


GOOD ONE, Rene...Can I steal it? :rolleyes:

[Mannie]

Great feedback everyone.

I'm particular interested in YongChun's comments regarding the Wong Shun Leung school that seemed to practice not only body but head contact. If anyone has more info that would be great.

I also think that most of the time we get lost in drills with the belief that it leads to confidence in application to self-preservation. This may be true for some but not all of us.

I was always taught that if i train like and artist i would be artistic,
But if i trained like a warrior i would not only survive but win the daily war.
Daily war meaning (life & its hazzards).

Full Contact (head & body) Chi Sao will not only put the sensitivity to the test but also put you to the test.

[Edmund]

Methinks you aren't comprehending WC speak.
Everyone's telling you they don't do 100% contact chi sao.




Great feedback everyone.

I'm particular interested in YongChun's comments regarding the Wong Shun Leung school that seemed to practice not only body but head contact. If anyone has more info that would be great.

I also think that most of the time we get lost in drills with the belief that it leads to confidence in application to self-preservation. This may be true for some but not all of us.

I was always taught that if i train like and artist i would be artistic,
But if i trained like a warrior i would not only survive but win the daily war.
Daily war meaning (life & its hazzards).

Full Contact (head & body) Chi Sao will not only put the sensitivity to the test but also put you to the test.

[anerlich]

To me, "full contact" implies that protective equipment, including gloves, is required, and that restricts your ability to perform chi sao properly. Even fingerless MMA gloves are IMO too thin to allow hard shots to the head. If you want to learn to hit with full power, that's what heavy bags are for.

Chi sao is a sensitivity drill. If you want to bang with someone, put on gloves and headgear and spar.

If we do chi sao, it's normally semi contact to the body, and touch contact to the head.

The only time we'd go heavier is in senior gradings (above instructor level). The last one I did I ended up with two black eyes and the left side of my chest with fairly extensive superficial bruising, including a palm print in which three individual finger marks were visible. This is designed to test the gradee's tenacity, and does not form part of regular training for obvious reasons. And even then, shots have to be pulled. Any other than a superficial injury would have stopped the procedure immediately.

You shouldn't be getting knocked unconscious in training, head trauma and concussion are bad for your health and can have bad consequences, including death. My instructor's father died as a result of an untreated concussion after a mugging, so he's obviously fairly sensitive to the issue. Cracked ribs are no fun either, nor is going to work with black eyes. You can't train properly if you get injured every session.

I have been KO'ed in training, but this was the result of a takedown on a hard floor which went bad. I cannot recommend it.

[Liddel]

I've been Doing VT for 8 years (your understanding will be different depending on your level of VT or you teaching)
My understanding of Chi Sao is that it means "Sticking Hands" For us its the bridge between drills and real fighting....
If a punch comes to me and i put up my Wu Sau, i have contact, i have "Chi Sao".
If my skill is good i can change that Wu to Tan Sao and punch the head of my opponent, who can be wearing protective gear. Or for arguments sake if the other pounch comes from the opponent after the first i change to Pak Sao and punch...this is all chi sao, touching all the time. WE dont see it as just Fook Jum Da or Tan Da Bong.

So in answer to your question YES full 'CONTACT' chi sao is possible but it depends on your definition of the term, others call that training sparring.
But the difference to me is the power use, sparring should be 'closer' to 100% power use.
good luck.

[AmanuJRY]

Does anyone outhere practice full contact Chi Sao?


Uh, yeah. We call it sparring, we do wear safety gear, verrrrrrrrryyyyyy mobil, and about 30-50% to start and 60-80% when you feel up to it.

[Jam_master]

But isn't the sole purpose of Chi Sao is to both find openings in tight places, to teach the hands to recognize position (both yours and your opponents) through the sense of touch, learning to keep your techniques tight and minimal as possible. Basically learning what to do right away the moment you make any kind of contact with your opponent since most fighters are lost after contact stage not knowing what to do or even knowing where they're hands are in the mix. I would think too that if you have control of your opponent, there would be no need to follow through with hard hitting blows, and good Chi Sao is about being able to apply good technique so you can control your opponent at all times, is it not? All to often I see guys too, fail to recognize the fact that the other already got past their defenses yet they continue to fight after the fact and even get a cheap shot in when the other guy out of respect choose to stop or hold back his punches, thinking his brethren will do the same out of common courtesy, but he doesn't. At that point the whole purpose of chi sao I beleive is lost. It's no longer about artistically and tactically handeling your opponent with the least amount of effort, instead it's all about just punching and kicking just for punching and kicking sake. Why even bother learning an art if it's going to come down to that. Might as well go street.

[anerlich]

Isn't it supposed to be an extra sensory perception tool for the hands

A tool for contact sensitivity, yes, and also positioning and structure. Nothing to do with "extra sensory perception".


to follow through with power would be already implied and unnecessary, would it not

Implied perhaps, unnecessary not always. Sometimes using moderate power is required to demonstrate that the power that is "implied" can actually be delivered. Particularly in alleged "friendly rolls" by kwoon visitors which actually turn out to be challenges.

[Jam_master]

A tool for contact sensitivity, yes, and also positioning and structure. Nothing to do with "extra sensory perception".

Sorry, I should have said extra awareness as apposed to extra perception which would imply a sixth sense or something. My bad! :p


Implied perhaps, unnecessary not always. Sometimes using moderate power is required to demonstrate that the power that is "implied" can actually be delivered. Particularly in alleged "friendly rolls" by kwoon visitors which actually turn out to be challenges.

Well that's a more specific use for power and I can completely understand you on that scenerio, but that's still a whole other cicumstance which has no bearing on my comments on the objective of chi sao in responce to this forums main question regarding "full contact chi sao" which I believe is kind of contradiction in terms to begin with. For that you might as well just sparr and forget chi sao which is suppose to be a tool to help develop other attributes period, and not to be used as a means to sparr. The fact that others do use chi sao to challenge or test you out is an unfortunate circunstance where your forced to take chi sao into a sparring match, delineating from it's sole purpose of refining techniques and controlling the hands. All to often you already seem to know that's not the case. :)