Little Guy Vs. Big guy

[Twisting Root]

Hey all, i am new to the forums here,,been looking at alot of posts in the threads and soaking stuff in. the training section seems to be the best here in my opinion.
I would like to ask a question of the more seasoned martial artists here. but before i do id like to bring up a few thoughts that pertain to my question.

I go to the gym,,i work out and lift weights on a regular basis, i also do cardio and of course i have had a little experience in western boxing and now i am taking hsing i (at the reccomendation of a friend who says it will, calm me down). anyway,this may sound a bit attitude'ish but i am kind of a big guy,,not fat,,but big,,and in these martial art classes i see these littler guys(some of them look down right out of shape,skinny) and they practice thier routines well and all,,but i cant help thinking to myself "i could stomp them like a bug".
look i know i got some ego behind me and i am sorry for that,,but with my strength level,,and not having as much experience in the martial arts department as some ive seen who are way smaller and less well built than myself and some of my work out partners at the gym, is it going to help them really against someone who is built like an nfl football player?
look i dont want to get down on these guys,,they have heart and i respect that,,but are these guys who dont go to the gym regularly and seemingly dont have a well built body really have a chance against someone who is alot bigger and who doesnt have as much expereince doing forms and such?
i mean i work out all the time and i have done a little boxing(3 years) and the hsing i i am doing has been about almost a year now(it has calmed me down a bit)

so in essence my question is: " Can a smaller guy who has more experience in forms and such successfully defend himself against a guy who is bigger in size and strength? (i try not to think about the movies and the stories there because movies are fantasy and i am trying to think realistically)

Twistin tha Roots.

[SevenStar]

size will always be a factor. However, it can become less of a factor as skill levels become further separated. I'm a big guy too, but let's assume I'm little, and I am not very skilled. You would most likely eat my lunch. Now, let's assume that I start fighting, gain more experience, etc. and you do not. Now, your size is less of a factor. It's still a factor for sure, but skill can compensate somewhat.

The problem here is what we define as skill. you said specifically, "Can a smaller guy who has more experience in forms and such successfully defend himself against a guy who is bigger in size and strength?" No, someone more experienced with forms may not be able to. Someone smaller with more fighting experience though? sure. You are a big guy who boxed - can you take out de la hoya? How about mayorga? Hopkins?

[TonyM.]

A guy with a hundred pounds on me asked me the same question in a HtoH class in the 2/75th. A single gab to the lower abdomen took him to the ground.

[IronFist]

All else being equal, the bigger/stronger guy will win.

But all else is rarely equal, so...

And I wonder what would happen if all else was equal, but the smaller guy was stronger (powerlifter) than the bigger guy. Hehe :D

[AndrewS]

As the heavyweights congregate. . .

the short answer to your question, as a 250lb guy with a good bit of time in doing contact sports is 'yes, there are little motherf*cker's out there who you don't want to try and take without a scoped rifle'. The usually didn't learn to be that way from a martial arts class, or in a boxing gym though- they're guys who needed to be that way, and found some places to let them become it- if that makes any sense.

I've been genuinely owned by people giving 100lbs to me, though that's rare.

The one thing I'd say is that 'sport' rules make smaller guys with skill do better against bigger and more powerful ones. A little guy can move on you boxing or kickboxing and you can't clinch him, and usually won't be allow to unload as much of what you've got on them as they'll dish out to you. Grappling, smaller folks can tap you but will hang in positions where they'd eat a lot of shots were it a MMA fight, or where a well-applied slam would change the momentum of the encounter.

The closer you get to NHB, IMO, the more strength and size matter, though when you start talking about 'streetfighting' smaller guys tend to have become more innovative and vicious by necessity (a bro of mine- judo bb, kyuoshinkai bb, former semi-pro boxer, 150lbs down from 200 when he was a juicing bodybuilder, used to serve warrant for a living- is still banned from one club on the Strip 'cos he bit a chunk of a bouncer's face off. We were out at a diner with toasters at the table one night and a guy was starting to hassle us- I unscrew the top of the pepper, surreptitiously, my bro starts the toaster heating, while palming a knife. He's the same person who came up with the 'pan of boiling water' shoot defense.)

All that being said- every little guy who's made me nervous has been someone who trained rigorously and with contact at some point. If your buddies are just doing cooperative stuff with little conditioning, they probably aren't going to get much self defense benefit.

Andrew

[gfx]

The answer is simple ---- no.

By your description of the guys you are talking about, they wouldn't stand a chance. A person may be small, but they cannot be weak. They must have the means of deal enough damage, and be able to out-think and out-manuver the larger person to come out on top. Not to mention be able to take sufficient amount of punishment. You just simply don't get this kind of stuff from doing only forms.

[5Animals1Path]

As was said, size only really gets into the picture when both combatants are equals in all other fields, be they grade schoolers or seasoned fighters. Personally, I try to pay more attention to the density and tightness of the body, and the way they move, then the height and width of it. As you get further in your training, you'll start to see who can really use what they've been training in how they move. Not just in forms and drills either. Most "fighters" have that certain quality to them, be it the way they walk, the way they watch their surroundings, or just the way they speak. Once you learn to recognize it, it's very hard to hide totally.

Good luck in your training. Don't deny the possibility of everything, but don't be spoon-fed either.

[Ford Prefect]

Like most others said, size makes a difference and the bigger/stronger guy will win if all else is equal. As greater the discrepency in skill, the greater the discrepency can be in size/strength for the smaller guy to win.

[PangQuan]

Size deffinately matters. In both directions you must remember. Take my sifu for instance. He is pretty short, but put him in a tank top and you wont doubt his strength. He is small but very strong. Also in addition to being small he is increadably fast, faster than say...someone one foot taller than him (on average of course). But at the same time he has all of the required strength to damage any sized individual.

In my opinion, these fellow students of yours that you feel are out of shape...well...frankly, they probably are. There is nothing that says small people cannot weight train and gain strength.

Likewise someone with an extra 50 lbs. of bone and an extra 50 lbs. of muscle can seriously hurt someone smaller. If the smaller individual does not make use of thier strengths, such as quick movement, and easy of evasion due to a small frame.

Large people have more weight, more strength and a longer reach.

Small people have less weight (lighter for movement), generally can be faster and have the ability to excell at in fighting due to shorter limbs.

Its all in relation.

[PangQuan]

In summary, if your little DO NOT grapple with the big guys, unless you got some serious skill. :p

[Twisting Root]

I dont discount the brothers out there like La Hoya and Hopkins. Hey they are some of my respected idols when it comes to just boxing. Those dudes have alot of skill because thats what they train for. they may be small compared to me but they are in better shape,way better shape than some of the dudes i am playin around with. When you have alot of strong muscle,,it also acts a protector of the body,,you can absorb alot ,,,my abs are big,, if you punch them im not going to feel it too much,,and by that time ive got you in a bear hug and slammin you to the ground. Now a kick is different,,that can hurt,,i know ive been kicked square dead in the stomach before and it hurts,,it pi$$ed me off is what it did,,i got mad and really tightened up and the other dude got knocked out.
Get this,,the other day one of the other students wanted to try something out on me and he just said to do whatever i wanted,,,im like "okay man." so i start jabbin', thats all im doing is jabbin right at his face and he gets ****ed because im not doing what he thought he wanted me to do. he couldnt do his thought out thing with the "Anything i was doing".
Hey i like hsing i alot,,its like western boxing but with some deep rooted stuff in it.
but some of these guys need to get to Gold's or something.

Thanks for the responses all. I will keep in touch.
Darren. Twisting tha Roots

[PangQuan]

Just remember, muscle will only help your knees so much. That is a key point for little guys to attack on big guys if its a real fight. You kick the knee and you kick it hard, and you kick it till it breaks.

Im just lucky im not too small and im not too big, just like the ladies like em' ;)

[SevenStar]

It sounds like what they need is not size, but experience.

[SevenStar]

It sounds like what they need is not size, but experience.

[Ford Prefect]

You can say that again. Oh wait. You did.

[SevenStar]

:D

A double post that was an hour apart? that's odd...

[IronFist]

:D

A double post that was an hour apart? that's odd...

I was just gonna comment on that :)

[monkeyboxing]

Small people may be faster in general, but larger people are by no means always slower than smaller people. For example, Roy Jones is slightly taller than average at 5 foot 11 and he is arguably the fastest boxer alive.

[bodhitree]

sometimes with big people it is not as easy to steel their root/balance or throw, so at that time often percision striking is good. Every situation is different, no rule

[Vasquez]

Small people may be faster in general, but larger people are by no means always slower than smaller people. For example, Roy Jones is slightly taller than average at 5 foot 11 and he is arguably the fastest boxer alive.

smaller and lighter ppl can move fast, games over when your large because you'll be muscle bound

[AndrewS]

Vasquez,

you haven't fought much, have you? Go check that theory against a college wrestler with a little boxing background who weights 240 and power cleans 300.

Andrew

[bodhitree]

Andrew S
I agree
I was much lighter a couple years ago and my old teachers relative came to class, a high school wrestler, big kid, there was nothing speed could do to prevent takedowns or to get off the ground. I was embarrased but I learned and have scince gained some weight and started to develop a little bit of a ground game.

[SevenStar]

smaller and lighter ppl can move fast, games over when your large because you'll be muscle bound


okay... what exactly are you basing this on?

[Twisting Root]

I gotta agree with Andrew on that one. Wrestler dudes can be tough,,but thats because they are in shape. They go to the gym,,they stretch a hell of a lot more than i do and they are quick. but i have been talking to a guy who used to wrestle and he says that he likes the training he got in wrestling(real wrestling not that wwf crap) But he got alot of his skillz honed when he started training to be a standup fighter(learning how to punch and keep a low guard) but its different with everyone. The UFC cats got a lot going on because they do both aspects and they dont play around. you guys are probably going to laugh but i actually Met Tank Abbot once, A long time ago,and i was there when he fought that hawaiin dude who was supposedly a 20 year master of ground fighting,,tank punched his lights out in the first 3 seconds of the bout. SInce then i have had a respect for the pit fighters(his fight with taktarov was boring,,but taktarov wore him down pretty good). But i also respect the ground fighters who actually know what they are doing.
my whole point when i started this thread was that i am seeing a vast improvement in my skillz as a boxer because of taking hsing-i,,but i am working out with alot of skinny dudes who i feel dont work out hard enough,,man they gotta get bigger,,,or at least do something to gain a little and get strength.
it is my opinion that it doesnt mean jack if you dont have the muscle power to back your internal power and vice versa,,,BUT,,we are in a physical world,,and for most we train the physical first.
anyway,,,thanks for the posts. ill post in later days.
Twistin tha Roots,,Darren

[LEGEND]

Unfortunately...alot of those guys may have a life outside of physical training. I found it quite easy to bulk up and commit to a boxing/grappling program while in college. Once I got a 40 hour a week job...I ended up slimming down. U probably need to find more challenging opponents to push you. I don't see your fighting ability approving unless u find sum1 dat is your size or bigger to push u. U may want to relocate to a gym that has quality sparring partners.

[Vasquez]

I gotta agree with Andrew on that one. Wrestler dudes can be tough,,but thats because they are in shape. They go to the gym,,they stretch a hell of a lot more than i do and they are quick. but i have been talking to a guy who used to wrestle and he says that he likes the training he got in wrestling(real wrestling not that wwf crap) But he got alot of his skillz honed when he started training to be a standup fighter(learning how to punch and keep a low guard) but its different with everyone. The UFC cats got a lot going on because they do both aspects and they dont play around. you guys are probably going to laugh but i actually Met Tank Abbot once, A long time ago,and i was there when he fought that hawaiin dude who was supposedly a 20 year master of ground fighting,,tank punched his lights out in the first 3 seconds of the bout. SInce then i have had a respect for the pit fighters(his fight with taktarov was boring,,but taktarov wore him down pretty good). But i also respect the ground fighters who actually know what they are doing.
my whole point when i started this thread was that i am seeing a vast improvement in my skillz as a boxer because of taking hsing-i,,but i am working out with alot of skinny dudes who i feel dont work out hard enough,,man they gotta get bigger,,,or at least do something to gain a little and get strength.
it is my opinion that it doesnt mean jack if you dont have the muscle power to back your internal power and vice versa,,,BUT,,we are in a physical world,,and for most we train the physical first.
anyway,,,thanks for the posts. ill post in later days.
Twistin tha Roots,,Darren


LOL what about Bruce Lee?

[wind draft]

I read that Bruce Lee can kick a 300LB heavy bag and make it swing back hitting the ceiling. He also kicked a 150LB hanging bag and supposely kicked a hole through it while it was hanging breaking the chain off where it was hanging on the wall. Now I think this is power and speed combine and its highest level.

[Twisting Root]

"What About Bruce Lee"?

Well..................What about him? The Dude is dead. If you are wanting me to compare or bring up an age old debate,,im not gonna do it. I mean if you go back and read my post i say something about "Keeping in shape" and "Having Muscle power" etc etc. I think Bruce had all that. Enough said.

Twistin tha roots,,,Darren.

[Vasquez]

"What About Bruce Lee"?

Well..................What about him? The Dude is dead. If you are wanting me to compare or bring up an age old debate,,im not gonna do it. I mean if you go back and read my post i say something about "Keeping in shape" and "Having Muscle power" etc etc. I think Bruce had all that. Enough said.

Twistin tha roots,,,Darren.

he's the greatest maer of our time. lots more can be said and u know it.

[SevenStar]

he is?? you type in the present, as if he's still alive. was, maybe, but not is. Because of that, it doesn't make any sense at all to bring him up.

That said, I don't think it's the size of your guys that matters - as I said earlier, it sounds like they need more experience. You may want to check other gyms, or, if you are happy there, stay, but find other guys from other schools to play with.

[Vasquez]

he is?? you type in the present, as if he's still alive. was, maybe, but not is. Because of that, it doesn't make any sense at all to bring him up.

That said, I don't think it's the size of your guys that matters - as I said earlier, it sounds like they need more experience. You may want to check other gyms, or, if you are happy there, stay, but find other guys from other schools to play with.
ppl still aspire to be like brue lee, he is fast and has good kicking power.

[bodhitree]

I never saw bruce lee fight a big grappler, or anyone else for that matter, except really early pics from hong kong

[SevenStar]

ppl still aspire to be like brue lee, he is fast and has good kicking power.


People also aspire to be like elvis...

anyway, what they aspire to be is irrelevant to the point. He's not the greatest MAer of our time - he's dead. Not only that, but the greatest MAer of our time is someone who has only had about 5 years of training?

[Reggie1]

I would LOVE to see what Bruce Lee would do vs.:

Lidell
Couture
Silva
Royce Gracie (in his prime)

Somehow I just don't think he would stack up.

[FatherDog]

ppl still aspire to be like brue lee,

You're right!

*lies very still and moulders*

[fa_jing]

Joe Lewis is still the real deal. http://www.fightingmaster.com/legends/lewis/joe_lewis.htm

Interesting interview, too.

My teacher has met him and says that he thinks Lewis could take him, while with some of the grandmasters he has met he believes the opposite to be true.


Lewis said in another interview that he thought Bruce would be susceptible to "cut kicks" from today's fighters. But, of course he was of a different era and if BL was around now he surely would have trained for this. My feeling though is that at 138 he wouldn't do much to the above fighters with the exception of Royce, who he could kick in the head.

[Vasquez]

Joe Lewis is still the real deal. http://www.fightingmaster.com/legends/lewis/joe_lewis.htm

Interesting interview, too.

My teacher has met him and says that he thinks Lewis could take him, while with some of the grandmasters he has met he believes the opposite to be true.


Lewis said in another interview that he thought Bruce would be susceptible to "cut kicks" from today's fighters. But, of course he was of a different era and if BL was around now he surely would have trained for this. My feeling though is that at 138 he wouldn't do much to the above fighters with the exception of Royce, who he could kick in the head.

Fighters now have become too big to be effective against Bruce. Note that Bruce could seriously move a kicking bag with his side kick.

[SevenStar]

That's crap. you have to be absolutely huge AND unskilled for their size to be any serious hinderance to them. Don't believe the hype, kid...

[ThaiMantis]

Fighters now have become too big to be effective against Bruce.

you have to be on a wind up, surely? i have much respect for BL, but i think your statement makes more sense the other way round?



Note that Bruce could seriously move a kicking bag with his side kick.

yes he had a good sidekick/ tigertail, but if it was just soaked up or they twist round it and grab him, most modern UFC fighter's strength, power and techniques would likely prove too much for even our man as he was back then.

as he would have said himself, "Bags dont hit back" ..when was the last time you saw an effective sidekick in a UFC bout? i dont think i ever have, and a good few have tried it.

try to remember what you see in films is scripted and choreographed, and not at all the same as a real fight.

[spiralstair]

There is always a big problem in comparing a dead guy's skills with a live guy. What was 'the best' in the past often is only upper middle level in the present. A 1965 Mustang GT was great in 65, but now it gets out accelerated, cornered and braked by a Nissan 350. There's nothing strange or unusual about that, it's just progress. What could be argued is what made BL great in the past(his mind), would have kept him up to date with today's fighters. But like arguing about who was the best baseball hitter from different times, it doesn't make sense to compare what is dead and gone to what is alive, in front of you, and wanting to kick your a$$.
The arguement that starts out "with all things being equal" is already false because things never are. That's why there are weight divisions in all fighting sports.
Peace.

[Vasquez]

There is always a big problem in comparing a dead guy's skills with a live guy. What was 'the best' in the past often is only upper middle level in the present. A 1965 Mustang GT was great in 65, but now it gets out accelerated, cornered and braked by a Nissan 350. There's nothing strange or unusual about that, it's just progress. What could be argued is what made BL great in the past(his mind), would have kept him up to date with today's fighters. But like arguing about who was the best baseball hitter from different times, it doesn't make sense to compare what is dead and gone to what is alive, in front of you, and wanting to kick your a$$.
The arguement that starts out "with all things being equal" is already false because things never are. That's why there are weight divisions in all fighting sports.
Peace.

hand to hand combat has declined in quality over time. Now people fight for sports. last time they used to fight for their lives.

[johnyk]

I remember Bill Wallace article. He was talking about that. According to him, all those "secret techniques" that you can learn in an hour that "Martial arts masters don't want you to know" won't help agains a master or against a bigger person. Same is concerining men and women. I am not sexist by any means, but a 250lb guy has some major advantage over 130 lb women.
Correct me If I am wrong.

[Vasquez]

I remember Bill Wallace article. He was talking about that. According to him, all those "secret techniques" that you can learn in an hour that "Martial arts masters don't want you to know" won't help agains a master or against a bigger person. Same is concerining men and women. I am not sexist by any means, but a 250lb guy has some major advantage over 130 lb women.
Correct me If I am wrong.

eyes-groin-throat women's self defence but just as useful for men against men. Hard to beat the directness of that.

[Dale Dugas]

Yeah you can go for the eyes-throat-groin, but remember that those targets are also small and make one get rather close to the person your going to hit. They could easily get you as well as you getting them.

Better to cross their centerline, and control their spine and manuever them to a disadvantageous position and then have at em.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[johnyk]

I am just wondering, what happens if you don't know how to get people out of balance. Also I agree that groin/nose/eyes/throat are all small targets. Plus more often than not, some one can still hurt you if slightly miss those targets. Not to mention you will P--s the attacker off.
In my oppinion those targets can work if
someone knows how the attacher reacts when hit there
someone went through basic training with a knowledgeble sifu
someone who attacts multiple vulnerable targets in close sequence