Difference between Kung Fu and Wushu

[jindonovan]

Forgive my ignorance on this, but I thought a good place to post my question would be here.
What is the difference between Wushu (not contemporary) and Kung Fu?

I have heard people saying that Kung Fu refers to higher level Wushu, that Wushu is Kung Fu but without the conditioning and training outside of sparring and form/application practice, or that it is only a difference in name etc.

I apologise if there have been countless threads about this or if it is blatantly obvious, I have tried to find information but havent got a satisfactory answer.

Thanks,

[Liokault]

Two answers here....or may be three.

First off Wu Shu is a proper term for chinese military arts, but has been used by the PRC to denote sport martialarts.
Kung fu on the other hand is just a term that Bruce Lees used once and was picked up by the press.

The other, more real answer is that WuShu is Gey dancing for guys in tights, whilst kung fu is the real deadly.

[lada]

Wushu in it's modern form is more for performance or acrobatics. Do not mistake this for worthlessness.

The conditioning and the abilities a Wu Shu performer has would allow them to beat up most people. With the focus on MMA these days, peoples minds have become too narrowed to see reality.

MMA is about a cage where people cannot get away. MMA is about people who know they are fighting. In real life, you are in the open, you can move around, get away. In real life, fights usually happen unexpectedly.

The main thing that people miss I think is speed. Wu Shu people are blinding fast. If a real life a fight was to pop up, they can react so fast that I think they would take out the other people before they were even ready to fight. I have some footage of Wu Shu people. Their speed is unbelievable. They do things that look impossible.

When people talk about kung fu these days, they are usually talking about training for fighting. The training is very similar.

What is the difference? If you want to learn some kung fu, I don't think you would notice any difference until you had been training for years. The people that say Wu Shu does not work? I think they are being tricked. Trickery is martial arts. The Wu Shu people look pretty and flowery so they can't be dangerous right? What better way to stick a knife in peoples back than to appear harmless? Go watch Chinese kung fu movies. High level martial artists will tell straight lies right into someone elses eyes, then stab them in the back. That is like the pinnacle of attainment.

People need strength, power and flexibility before learning kung fu really makes any difference. Anything that gives you strength, power and flexibility is a good thing to train in until your body is ready. Kung fu, Wu Shu, Skateboarding, Surfing, whatever it takes to get basic balance and coordination and strength.

Teach a guy all the martial arts techniques you want. If he has no power, none of them are going to hurt. You see lots of cage fights where some trained guy hits the opponent 20 times. The opponent shakes off all 20 strikes because there is no power and then smashes the other guy.

If the guy is not balanced or coordinated or flexible, he cannot properly execute all those techniques he knows. His aim will be off, he will wobble on one leg when he kicks, he won't be limber for jiu jitsu moves.

[David Jamieson]

Long and short of it:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/info/faq02.php

[WinterPalm]

Wushu is much in the form and without the substance. There is the Chuan, but not the Kung. The PRC wants to promote this art for its cultural relevance as a showy thing but it has lots much roots in my opinion.

The difference. Kung Fu is training to fight and to better health. To increase the physical as well as the mental and emotional. Wushu may carry some of these latter two points, I suppose it would depend on the teacher, but Contemporary Wushu is about performance and physical abilities.

Another issue at hand is the comment on the UFC guys not striking with the proper power. Even in sparring it is very difficult to land a really good hit at a novice level, and I mean like five years as a novice. You can't expect to just take someone out, you have to really mean it and you have to be very prepared. Although I think there are better ways to train than always fighting due to the nature of combat, but sparring as close to a reallity as possible is necessary. WIthou this or kung training, you will not be as capable as you think.

I don't doubt that maybe a Wushu person could fight, just like I don't doubt that a UFC champ could break out a beautiful Flamingo dance or start an Opera, the issue is what they are training for. In Kung Fu you are training, in the fighting sense, for a street fight and to defend yourself from violence. Wushu is a competition with points and judges.

[David Jamieson]

I'll reiterate.

Kungfu doesn't necessarily apply to martial arts or the study of them at all. However, one can achieve Kungfu in Wu shu (Mo I).

The divisions and the use of the terms in such a manner as to use Kungfu to refer to Chinese martial arts is strictly a western thing. In Chinese culture, this is not the standard usage of the term Kungfu and all martial arts are referred to as wushu whether they are traditional with all the esoteric practices or contemporary athletic martial performance.

Western linguistics in the defining of cultural idioms has been a problem in more subjects than this one.

Kind of similar reason why people wind up with Chinese characters tattooed on their back that say "I am ignorant and a gwai Lo" and they think it means "power machine" :D

[SevenStar]

Kind of similar reason why people wind up with Chinese characters tattooed on their back that say "I am ignorant and a gwai Lo" and they think it means "power machine" :D

Or how the japanese take random english words and combine them. A perfect example is a store there called "violence jackoff"

[David Jamieson]

Or how the japanese take random english words and combine them. A perfect example is a store there called "violence jackoff"

well, we're off on a bit of a tangent with this new line to the question, but, yes, precisely. :p

Unless of course the store sells items that aid in violent jacking off in which case it would be quite apropo wouldn't you say?

[Liokault]

Wushu in it's modern form is more for performance or acrobatics. Do not mistake this for worthlessness.

The conditioning and the abilities a Wu Shu performer has would allow them to beat up most people. With the focus on MMA these days, peoples minds have become too narrowed to see reality.

MMA is about a cage where people cannot get away. MMA is about people who know they are fighting. In real life, you are in the open, you can move around, get away. In real life, fights usually happen unexpectedly.

The main thing that people miss I think is speed. Wu Shu people are blinding fast. If a real life a fight was to pop up, they can react so fast that I think they would take out the other people before they were even ready to fight. I have some footage of Wu Shu people. Their speed is unbelievable. They do things that look impossible.

When people talk about kung fu these days, they are usually talking about training for fighting. The training is very similar.

What is the difference? If you want to learn some kung fu, I don't think you would notice any difference until you had been training for years. The people that say Wu Shu does not work? I think they are being tricked. Trickery is martial arts. The Wu Shu people look pretty and flowery so they can't be dangerous right? What better way to stick a knife in peoples back than to appear harmless? Go watch Chinese kung fu movies. High level martial artists will tell straight lies right into someone elses eyes, then stab them in the back. That is like the pinnacle of attainment.

People need strength, power and flexibility before learning kung fu really makes any difference. Anything that gives you strength, power and flexibility is a good thing to train in until your body is ready. Kung fu, Wu Shu, Skateboarding, Surfing, whatever it takes to get basic balance and coordination and strength.

Teach a guy all the martial arts techniques you want. If he has no power, none of them are going to hurt. You see lots of cage fights where some trained guy hits the opponent 20 times. The opponent shakes off all 20 strikes because there is no power and then smashes the other guy.

If the guy is not balanced or coordinated or flexible, he cannot properly execute all those techniques he knows. His aim will be off, he will wobble on one leg when he kicks, he won't be limber for jiu jitsu moves.


You are so wrong about so many differant things.

I find it ironic that we have one thread insisting that San Shou is kung fu, then you here insisting that wushu dancing is the real.

[Dim Wit Mak]

Wushu is the politically correct, PRC approved dance and acrobatic Kung Fu. No doubt they are good acrobats. Kung Fu is a generic term for hundreds of different martial arts styles that were developed by different families and monks inside of China. Now many styles have developed outside of China. No doubt a Wushu performer with a spear or sword would be very dangerous. In any empty hands competition with any of the top MMA competitors, they would get their heads handed to them. There are some styles of kung fu, such as Choy Lay Fut and San Shou where this may not be the case.

If a competition were held outside an octagon, then they might be able to flip and run fast enough to get away.

[wutymes]

Wushu is a very exaggerated form of traditional kung fu. they also added many elements, to increase the display effect, which have no direct fighting application at all. also some was changed to make it more universal.


before we get any flames, can anyone here truly figure out what is traditional in the modern wushu forms? (or probably a better idea, the ones during the 1980s?)

[Tiger on Duty]

Modern wushu, such as nan quan and chang chuan are made up forms in the mainstream of similiar northern and southern styles hence north fist and south fist.
Basically the chinese govt grabbed all the top sifu from nth and sth said make some comp forms now and they did. Who's gonna say no?
every 10 years they change the forms and poof you have new competition forms.
The old forms from the 70's and 80's had more martial content so when you see performers of nan quan many hung gar clf etc can see the influence, in the way they punch etc the essence was still there even application was taught but niow adays only the form is taught no application and the players used to be taught a balance of sorts they all had to learn external and internal styles to maintain harmony, now you are taught only what u are good at, so if u can hit hard u learn san shou only etc etc(this is in china).

Kung fu=hard skill/hard work in cantonese meaning you have to train hard to aquire the kung fu, it is used to mean anything that is hard to achieve such as mountain climbing i.e a mountain climber who can climb mt everest has kung fu.

Wushu in its proper form= chinese martial art.
as stated by and earlier poster that also includes modern performance wushu.

hope thats been informative.

[Shaolinlueb]

wushu means martial arts.

kung fu just means high skill or soemthing. most people associate kung fu with "traditional chinese martial arts" and wush with "modern chinese martial arts".
its all the same to me. they both complement each other. "modern" wushu is based off of "traditional" wushu. so whatever, let narrow minded people argue.

[Ray Pina]

Today, Wushu means jumping around, rolling, moving beautifully but with no martial merit.

Unfortunately, Kung Fu's definition today isn't very different either.

You have to do some searching to find someone who has real kung fu, can use it, and teach it. But it's out there.

Don't believe what you hear. Go look and see. Seeing and feeling is believing. Don't fall for long histories and stories of masters old .... see what the person in front of you can do.

[MasterKiller]

wushu means martial arts.

kung fu just means high skill or soemthing. most people associate kung fu with "traditional chinese martial arts" and wush with "modern chinese martial arts".
its all the same to me. they both complement each other. "modern" wushu is based off of "traditional" wushu. so whatever, let narrow minded people argue.
Civil War re-enactments are based off of real battles. That doesn't give them martial merit.

[5Animals1Path]

In general, Wushu is a big gear with a big crank. Take that same crank, but put it on a small gear. That's Kung Fu.



Clear enough? :rolleyes:

[Shaolinlueb]

i dont know what the hell you people have been watching. most of the "modern" wushu i see takes a level of athletisism (sp?) skill, and flexibility, over "traditional" kung fu, and good "modern" wushu has that explosiveness that "traditional" has. many of the moves are from "traditional" kung fu. and i see them training a lot harder then traditional kung fu most of the time too. plus there isnt as much bikkerying it seems in the world of "modern" wushu comapred to "traditional" wushu.

this is a wack ass subject. you train kung fu cause you like it. practice wu-de and just train and stop argueing over which is better.

[PangQuan]

One is penut butter, the other is jam, and the world is the bread. They go better if used at the same time, but can be used by themselves if your picky.

[Shaolinlueb]

One is penut butter, the other is jam, and the world is the bread. They go better if used at the same time, but can be used by themselves if your picky.

which is peanut butter and which is jam? there are many flavors of jam liek there are many styles of traditional kung fu. very good comparison ;)

[PangQuan]

I havent figured that one out yet. I may be too busy eating my PB&J to answer that. :D

[David Jamieson]

*pulls up lawn chair and popcorn to watch the next phase of the silly argument* :p

lueb, people who have been fed the kungfu vs wushu story won't be able to handle the idea very readily that in the end, it's all good.

Contemporary wushu practitioners for the most part are far more advanced than traditional kungfu practitioners on average.

Many reputable and well known sifu of traditional styles also teach contemporary wushu and have no issues with running the two courses together. IN fact, it is a much smoother transition for the contemporary wushu athlete to make the crossover to traditional kungfu than it is for someone who does traditional wushu to map over to contemporary.

One is for performance the other is for application, but many who study traditional (read most) do not have the ability to apply it and what they have is just shape anyway.


In short, it's all good and contemporary wushu quite simply exposes all kungfu to the world moreso than small closed clubs that practice in secret like some story they read.

No insult intended, but there are a hella lotta bull headed stubborn and narrowminded so called traditional kungfu people out there who thinks there poo poo is smelling like roses. But you don't see them performing too often for the benefit of anything beyond self promotion or enhancement of their own school.

For me, this damages the whole shebang. If that sounds harsh, so be it. Hard cheese and all that. I still practice trad and mma and I tip my hat to the contemporary wushu folks, what they do is of high skill as any other ma out there.

[PangQuan]

Im with you 100% DJ.

Clouded their judgement, it is. The jam with the penut butter, together well it goes. MMMMM...

[WinterPalm]

YKW, I would agree with your post.

I think all of the arts are tough and take some time to learn. A lot of time that is. And Wushu perpetuates that old racist feeling many get that Chinese people can all do Kung Fu or that it looks like flips, spinning kicks, and other fancy stuff. I think it does require a lot of skill, but a skill in one arena and one that is very removed from traditional combat oriented Kung Fu. Some train for the ring in MMA, some train for the judges in either Wushu competition or point sparring, and others still train for the street if anything were to happen. Mainly to protect themselves. I don't think that any spinning jumping flipping kicks would be very good in a wintery place. It's practicality is there but it is not something I would use to defend myself.

Traditional Kung Fu is a very complicated and intricate art and takes a long time to learn, and to understand, but as every day goes by one gets a better understanding of what it is. The basics give you technique and shape but the advanced stuff is where you ingrain and incorporate the art into who you are. I doubt if many reach that point. Many do not have the patience to study something so in depth. Many think they need to try the grass on the other side, but then, they say they want something that is more effective now and lets me fight all the time! How many actually get into fights with their so-called ineffective art? In the Western world, probably not too many. Unless you seek them out by cage battles or attitude, but that is something compeletely different. Therefore, Wushu, not a great system like Kung Fu, or approach like Kung Fu, but it gives people what they are looking for and feel is necessary.

To sum it up, people will seek out what they feel benefits them and although I personally don't like to see Wushu called Kung Fu because it is not a combat art, (Where is the IRon Palm, where is the steel weapons???), I have nothing against those who enjoy it but I feel traditional CMA is much more appropriate for self-defense.

[Shaolinlueb]

those "solk pajama's" are mad comfortable and prefer them over the rugged cotton kung fu uniform for competition. heck silk is so smooth against your skin :o :D ;)

[firepalm]

Modern Wushu like it or not is one aspect of Chinese Martial Arts taken to one extreme (art & sport). Modern Wushu is not the ‘be all and end all’ of Chinese Martial Arts, but simply one aspect of it and should not be taken to be the sole representation of Chinese Martial Arts as a whole. In fact most practitioners of Modern Wushu are quick to admit both that and what they do is not really for self defense, so where’s the harm in that?

Pointing out things like the weight of weapons, running into jump kicks, excessive acrobatics is pretty much irrelevant really because they (practitioners of Modern Wushu) are practicing not for combat purposes but for sport and art. If so called ‘practicality’ is one’s only argument against Modern Wushu, then one should perhaps look at many of the ‘traditional’ practices; Lion Dancing, Qigong training, classical weaponry, etc… and start canceling them out. Come on Traditional Kung Fu might as well get rid of all of their ‘Steel’ weapons and trade them in for guns, rifles, hunting knives & baseball bats. The time spent practicing with a Nine Ring Combat Steel Broadsword or other such items would probably be better spent on a heavy bag, hitting focus mitts or sparring. And then Lion Dancing well what’s the point in that? Where’s the applicability? If you haven’t clued in, I am playing Devil’s Advocate here. Personally I appreciate Lion Dancing, Traditional Styles & weaponry however to me they are also not the sole definition of the Chinese Martial Arts.

Modern Wushu, as well as other more recent additions to the Chinese Martial Arts spectrum like San Shou, the whole Shaolin subculture thing and so on are pretty much here to stay. I personally think it would be better if some out there would just realize that and just try to embrace the Chinese Martial Arts not as one thing or another but rather the sum of many parts. But then that’s just my opinion.

[David Jamieson]

Sounds like some guys are comfortable living in a medieval fantasy or something.

lol

Kungfu for health and self defense, wushu for exhillerating performance and for the sportive combative aspect there is the san shou, or whatever the name of the week is, mma, san da, chinese kickboxing etc etc.

How does anyone think weilding a classical weapon like a Kwan Dao or a Darn Dao has any more validity than the athletics displayed in contemporary wushu?

These are aspects of Kungfu that have pretty much zero application in todays world, you will never be able to test whether or not your sword form is defensively or offensively effective unless you go out and become some kind of psycho killer of course. :p You will likely never know if there is any value at all in that part of the training.

Iron palm is another thing that you can ask yourself, when are you going to use that? How are you going to be able to tell that your form work is meting out as effective and applicable combat? Especially when the only people you cross hands with are doing the same dance as you all the time?

The hard line traditional kungfu point of view is in my opinion silly. As is the performance wushu is for self defense line of view. Each has it's purpose.

People are making it clear that these things, all of them are for the sheer joy of doing. Some aspects have practical purpose, and large parts of the practice of martial arts in whatever name you wanna call it has little or no purpose other than this. Stay healthy, grow old and be limber still, etc etc.

To look down on other arts isn't part of having kungfu. That I know for sure.

[Tiger on Duty]

Seems to be lots of subjective posts and not much substance, the question is what is the difference not what is better or applicable etc.
so basically look at the textbook type answers and ignore evryone else, hate it when people post in someones thread and dont even read the question properly.


I.E. he doesnt want your opinion he just wants facts.

Wushu=martial art (wether traditional or contemporary)

Kung fu=hard to learn skill (in western circles mistakenly used to mean chinese martial art).

[David Jamieson]

Seems to be lots of subjective posts and not much substance, the question is what is the difference not what is better or applicable etc.
so basically look at the textbook type answers and ignore evryone else, hate it when people post in someones thread and dont even read the question properly.


I.E. he doesnt want your opinion he just wants facts.

Wushu=martial art (wether traditional or contemporary)

Kung fu=hard to learn skill (in western circles mistakenly used to mean chinese martial art).

lol, I believe your interpretation has been posted several times already.
In general, I agree with your final points as the answer to the original question.
Nevertheless, there is seemingly a lot of folk who carry around their teacher's opinions of things as opposed to forming their own reality from their own critical thought. This is not uncommon in martial arts practitioners I find. lol

[Liokault]

lol, I believe your interpretation has been posted several times already.
In general, I agree with your final points as the answer to the original question.
Nevertheless, there is seemingly a lot of folk who carry around their teacher's opinions of things as opposed to forming their own reality from their own critical thought. This is not uncommon in martial arts practitioners I find. lol


Are you including your self here Dave?

[David Jamieson]

Are you including your self here Dave?

absotively! I used to carry around my teachers opinions as if they were the ultimate in the correct.

But with time, experience and acquired knowledge, my position and stance on many things changed, remained the same on some and completely reversed on others.

It's all part of being human.

Know yourself, and you will know the world and all that. :D

[Tiger on Duty]

so true, guess it takes some alot longer than others to realise this.

[jindonovan]

Thanks a lot for all the replies.
Just wondering one more thing, so Wushu, I have gathered, essentially means chinese martial arts, and there is traditional and contemporary, the latter being the performance orientated art. Is traditional wushu basically the styles that Mantis, Northern Fist etc all fit under? Because I know that these such traditional styles are practical, but would such a style as Seven Star Preying Mantis fall under the banner of 'Traditional Wushu'?

[Tiger on Duty]

Yes, many schools today are a mix of both traditional and contemporary wushu which even further blurs the lines i.e i learn seven star mantis but my school also enters many wushu type competitions or sum such senario.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Tiger on Duty
Seems to be lots of subjective posts and not much substance, the question is what is the difference not what is better or applicable etc.
so basically look at the textbook type answers and ignore evryone else, hate it when people post in someones thread and dont even read the question properly.


I.E. he doesnt want your opinion he just wants facts.

Wushu=martial art (wether traditional or contemporary)

Kung fu=hard to learn skill (in western circles mistakenly used to mean chinese martial art).
I wouldn't say kungfu(or gongfu/gungfu) is "mistakenly" used, as it's a perfectly legit term that was used by some Chinese to refer to Chinese martial arts. I think of it more as slang.


Thanks a lot for all the replies.
Just wondering one more thing, so Wushu, I have gathered, essentially means chinese martial arts, and there is traditional and contemporary, the latter being the performance orientated art. Is traditional wushu basically the styles that Mantis, Northern Fist etc all fit under? Because I know that these such traditional styles are practical, but would such a style as Seven Star Preying Mantis fall under the banner of 'Traditional Wushu'?
Traditional wushu is generally older styles like mantis, northern shaolin, etc.

Contemporary wushu has 4 main divisions: Chang Quan (based on 5 major traditional longfist styles), Nan Quan (based on Southern fist styles but generally still with chang quan basics), Taiji Quan (based on 4 major taiji styles... 24 form, 48 form, 66 form, etc.), and San Shou/San Da (a mixed martial fighting format and training method... combo of kickboxing and wrestling basically, and there's a san shou form, but I haven't seen it... don't know how wide spread it is). It also includes various forms based on traditional styles developed for competition, and individually created competition forms. There used to be international compulsory forms for competition, but they're no longer used in the world championships. At high levels of competition wushu athletes will either specialize in forms or fighting. This started happening mostly after the cultural revolution, but every once in awhile you get someone who can be highly competitive in both (like Jason Yee: competed in nan quan and san shou at the world championships, or Javon Holmes: placed in top 3 in both contemp. forms and san shou at national championships, I believe). As the years go on though, the competition level raises for each (and competition forms standards become more acrobatic) so it's harder and harder to do.

[David Jamieson]

and lets' not forget thet whole "ghey" vs "not ghey" thing. :D

hahahahahaha.

If you can't take a joke, then...you're probably taking things too seriously. :p

[Tiger on Duty]

Are you chinese brad?

[wutymes]

some of those wushu guys have a harder time throwing a good punch than doing a really flashy gymnastic trick. (mainly the ones that do it for a hobby, not a job. but you see where the emphasis is on getting points) not all of course, but just check out some of those videos. i saw this guy doing a changquan form where he could do a xuan feng jiao inside kick and land in the splits but when he threw a punch it looked like he has butter fists. argh!! this is why i love the compulsory, everybody had good fist and stance.

[Brad]

Are you chinese brad?
Nope. I have to ad more text so this thing will let me post my message :p

[jindonovan]

So, is Changquan also a practical style with real applications? That is a big question that I would really appreciate an answer for, thanks for anyone who answers it.

[Theoderic]

I had wushu chicken the other day at the Golden Buddha restaurant. Not sure if it was traditional or contemporary though. :D

[PangQuan]

So, is Changquan also a practical style with real applications? That is a big question that I would really appreciate an answer for, thanks for anyone who answers it.

You find the right person and they can show you actual application for any form.

[g0pher]

Wushu has too much gay posing. Its the Kung fu for the guys who swing from the other side of the green.

[Dim Wit Mak]

Dang wolfen, that was great! :)