Songshan Shaolin Lyrics: Xiaohongquan

[PangQuan]

Just curious if anyone else has studied this style of Shaolin. I have completed the first two sets. So far all that I have been able to find on this is the first set (on the net via google type searches). And at that, what I have found seems to be missing parts that I learned in this set. I am looking for any notes pertaining to the second set. I am just curious to compair what I have learned with what others are putting out there. From what I have been finding on the first set it seems that I am getting a more complete version, I would like to see if this is the same with the second set.

Any links would be helpfull that display the set in full (not a video sales pitch), if you are not familiar with this style the first two sets are commonly called minor/little/small Hong, and major/greater/large Hong in english.

[Premier79]

Check out http://www.russbo.com. They had a vid of xiaohongquan up there. I'm not sure if it's still there though.

[GeneChing]

I imagine most of the Songshan Shaolin practitioners have engaged Xiaohong. It's a fairly standard beginning set.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

what that website shaolinleub has that uploaded video clips of li peng 2004 tourny?
it has some videos of the shaolin shao hung chang in there
im rpetty sure that would help the guy
i cant seem to dig up the link right
anyone stil have it?

[Shaolinlueb]

**** yo. its in the media section of www.nacma.net ;) (shameless plug :D)

[Starchaser107]

yup, I know that set.
when you say "missing parts" I'm not certain what you mean.
you do realise that some sets are different within schools right?

oddly enough I took this photo today...

[oasis]

interesting ding bu starchaser. you're the first person i've seen to keep the right arm higher and the left arm aimed back. we keep the right arm close to our body at shoulder level, and the left arm straight down. oh wait, here's de cheng (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=588) demonstrating here :cool:

as for the clips on leub's site, keep in mind that the amy clip is an 'abridged' version, but done very well. the regular version is on there too. pangquan, what have you used to learn the two forms? da hong quan is more difficult than xiao hong quan. as was said, there are some slight variations in the way different people play out xiao hong quan. i've only seen one video clip of da hong quan online. there are plenty of vcds and dvds on these forms that you can buy online if you wish to learn them at home on your own. are you currently working on wushu at your school?

[Starchaser107]

[QUOTE=oasis]interesting ding bu starchaser. you're the first person i've seen to keep the right arm higher and the left arm aimed back. we keep the right arm close to our body at shoulder level, and the left arm straight down. oh wait, here's de cheng (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=588) demonstrating here :cool:

cool potatoes. any particular reason you keep your hand by your chest and not your face or is it just a stylistic difference?

[oasis]

not to derail this thread ;) , but i think it's a matter of application interpretation. one application based on the more common way is a basic qinna where someone grabs your shirt, or perhaps throws a strike, and you either lock his arm in the former by grabbing the hand and maintaining it against your chest (or catching the strike in the second example), and then drop down into a ding bu as you strike/press down right above the elbow, ie a basic arm bar.

[Starchaser107]

I don't think we're derailing it too badly :D , still sort of on topic.
It's all about learning. Thanks for the reply oasis.

[PangQuan]

Nice form starchaser. I guess I should have taken the different schools thing into consideration, good point. I just notices different schools will leave parts out, but the parts left out will be present in anothers, while they will leave out a part the previous included. While at the same time all of the variations I have seen, we include each section present in each one (with of course slight differnces in delivery). It just arouses curiosity.

Oasis, yes I learned both of the sets from my Sifu. I recieved a link to a version of the Da Hong Quan, but it is not of the "shaolin" variety. So its a bit different. It seems less power driven, and more flowery. I have never learned any sets from anything other than my Sifu. So far all I have learned is several LongFist sets and the two first Hong Quan sets.

We keep our top arm close and slightly lean away from the bottom arm while angling it out a bit by slightly bending the elbow. I think the idea of having the arm close to the body is to obsorb more impact without having your own arms smash yourself. I have been working on the Hong Quan for about a year now.

[Starchaser107]

you guys probly have more knowledge than me on the matter, I've been doing Bak Shao Lin for most of my time training kung fu, and although I have a few songshan sets my emphasis really is on the bak system and eagle claw. I learnt that Shao Hong form maybe 6.5 years ago.
Pang, I'm just as curious as you are about this whole thing. Would it be okay to speculate that maybe there isn't really one standard set with all the moves you've seen?
Maybe some schools added in some elements of thier own or changed stuff ?
Anyways, for whatever the reason this form seems to be popular on this board, We are either discussing the word "Hong" or stuff like this , the reason why I dunno, as Gene said it's a pretty basic form, but I like the vibes that the Songshan forms have. :cool:

[PangQuan]

Ya, thats probably the safest speculation. To tell you the truth I am more interested in Da Hong Quan, as I am the only person in my school that knows it I would like to compare thoughts on it with someone. But sinse I cant do that I started looking for sources on the net. There is a pretty big language barrier between Sifu and myself so I cant really get into detailed discussions. He does speak some Mandarin though and I am in the process of learning the language, so hopefully that will help.

I am also interested in finding as much about this style as possible. Links to history anyone? I have been just practicing and learning it for a while, but now I am getting more curious. As I eventually will learn all ten (thats how many my Sifu teaches anyhow, not sure as to if its the complete system or not) sets I am wanting some background info.

[Shaolinlueb]

im in the same boat as SC. my most consentration is on bak shaolin eagle claw. we are like martial cousins or soemthing :). i only have 1 or 2 songshan sets. a lohan set my sihing learned from oasis's teacher and tongbie my sihing learned form shi yan ming. my sifu trained with shi yan ming for 2 years but hasnt taught us any of the forms from him, just his energy and such.

[norther practitioner]

There was a long discussion about this at russbo a year or so ago... I'm sure if you search that forum, you'll find a lot of interesting takes on this.

[GeneChing]

Here's my ding bu (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=527) - I hope it's akin to my master Decheng's since he taught it to me. Mine photographed from a slightly exaggerated angle, but I too keep my elbow tucked in, mostly for that qinna app.

I've seen a lot of variation in Xiaohong quan, even more in Dahong. There's an internal temple version that's really different - same moves but an almost chen taiji-like energy. I've even seen variation in the lyrics and once started to compile those variations, just for fun. The essence is usually the same, though.

[phoenix-eye]

Here's a DaHong clip.....PQ has it already

http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/DaHongBoxing.mov

Don't study it.....so don't know how Shaolinified it is.....or not...

PE

[phoenix-eye]

I asked a girl to show me her ding bu's once.....

Ended up with a black eye....

[PangQuan]

I asked a girl to show me her ding bu's once.....

Ended up with a black eye....

lol.......

[PangQuan]

Here's a DaHong clip.....PQ has it already

http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/DaHongBoxing.mov

Don't study it.....so don't know how Shaolinified it is.....or not...

PE

Thats deffinately the Da Hong I know, yet totally different. I think this may be what Gene was talking about. It is pretty intersesting to watch though, he has a totally different system of delivery.

[oasis]

the forms are depicted in the taguo books (http://www.martialartsmart.net/bslx115.html) , and the form you're speaking of is the 'first road.' 3 of them are described in the books. shi de yang also covers the three roads in his vcd/dvd set.

as for this performance, one of the senior students at my school did it recently and it seemed in line with how the older man in the video did it. they each had different flavors, but the overall movements were the same. that can be said for most forms based on the way the individual practioner links certain groups of movements versus others. it will inevitably lead to different tempos that might be perceived as a different form (even though the movements are the same).

[Jhapa]

the forms are depicted in the taguo books (http://www.martialartsmart.net/bslx115.html) , and the form you're speaking of is the 'first road.' 3 of them are described in the books. shi de yang also covers the three roads in his vcd/dvd set.

is that a good set of books to get. it's in english right. i think i read that right.

[oasis]

as people always say, books can only do so much. for me personally, i just like to have them for comparative documentation of material that i learn at my school. whenever i learn a form, and when's it's in taguo, i'll check the book for comparison and to get some of the names of the movements, although taguo often gives generic directional names. also, the translations are not perfect, so there are sometimes awkward phrases used to describe the movements.

i also have videos of many of the same forms, so the books and vids complement one another. if you're just interested in learning forms that you are not learning in person, i would say forget the books and get the videos, or get both.

[GeneChing]

The Taguo books (http://store.martialartsmart.net/bslx115.html) hold a special position for me because I was in Shaolin when the first three were released in '95. I got my editions signed to me personally and chopped by compiler Liu Haichao. I was responsible for the first imports of these books to the USA, initially through WLE and now through www.martialartsmart.com. It's an interesting reference but there's really no way to learn from them. You need to know the form first, then you can reference it. The translation is clunky, but every Songshan student should have it just because it's the most extensive English work so far...

[Royal Dragon]

I have worked out a good half dozen sets from Tagou books. All the martial Monk sets for starters. When I finaly got video's on them I found I was so darn close, that the variations didn't matter.

To work them out, you do need to have deacent Shaolin fundementals, and a very paitient mind set. It takes time to absorb, and figure out what is being done.

Also, some things are just backwards. Once that little fact reveles itself to you, it's not hard at all.

[GeneChing]

Here's an odd piece of research that I was working on about almost ten years ago but never published. It never really worked as an article, so Ill just let you all have it here. It's a comparison of Xiaohongquan lyrics from three different sources.

Shaolin Gong-fu: A Course in Traditional Forms: Shiaohong’s form (Liu 1994: 47-90)
1. Ready position *
2. Hold the moon in arms *
3. White cloud over the head *
4. Push the left palm in a forward lunge *
5. Erect an arm while shrinking the body *
6. Push the left palm in a forward lunge
7. Rebound a palm while turning the body *
8. Push the left palm while taking one step forward
9. Push both palms while lifting the knee
10. Outside-crescent *
11. Shut both elbows with a horse stance
12. Incline both arms in a right forward lunge
13. Insert a fist downward with a right T-stance
14. A fist chops downward while swing-kicking a leg
15. Shut both elbows with a horse stance
16. Incline both arms with a left forward lunge
17. Cut a palm with a lower-wing stance *3
18. A lion opens the mouth (right one) *
19. Rush the left fist after over the head

20. Form plough arms after an arm over the head *2
21. Keep both arms in a line with a horse stance *2
22. Strike up a fist in a kneeling stance
23. Insert a fist downward with a left T-stance
24. Jab palms with a forward lunge *1
25. Inside-crescent
26. Rush a fist up while stamping foot *
27. Scorpion swings its tail
28. A lion opens the mouth (left one) *
29. Push the left palm with a forward lunge

30. Rebound a palm while withdrawing a step
31. Push the left palm with one step forward
32. Push both palms while lifting a knee
33. Clap the right foot *1
34. Left front enpi *
35. Insert a fist downward with a right T-stance
36. A fist chops downward while swing-kicking a leg
37. Right front enpi *
38. Cut a palm with a lower-wing stance
39. A lion opens the mouth (right one) *
40. Rush the left fist after over the head
41. Form plough arms after an arm over the head
42. Keep both arms in a line with a horse stance
43. Strike a fist up with a kneeling stance
44. Insert a fist downward with a left T-stance
45. Jab palms with a forward lunge
46. Clap the right foot *1
47. Push the right palm with a forward lunge *2
48. Push the left palm with a forward lunge *2
49. Push the right palm with a forward lunge *2
50. Clap the left foot *
51. Push the left palm with a forward lunge *2
52. Push the right palm with a forward lunge *2
53. Push the left palm with a forward lunge *2
54. Drag the sea for sands *
55. Strike both hands while stamping a foot *1
56. Make a whole stomachache
57. Enpi the elbow while lifting a knee *1
58. Down strike with a forward lunge
59. Erect an arm while shrinking the body *
60. Push the left palm with a forward lunge
61. Hammer a fist downward after over the head
62. A hero with a horse stance *2
63. The finish *

Shaolin Kung-Fu: Shaolin Xiaohong Boxing (Cai 1992: 87-91)
1. Preparation *
2. Holding moon in arms *
3. White clouds covering head *
4. Stepping forward and pushing palm *1
5. Shrinking and bending elbow *
6. Stepping forward and pushing palm *
7. Turning back and wrenching hands *2
8. Stepping forward and pushing palm *
9. Turning back and stretching leg
10. Stepping forward and swaying foot
11. Moving right obliquely *1
12. Shrinking and bending elbow
13. Raising legs quickly *
14. Moving left obliquely *1
15. Putting down hands *3
16. Lion opening big mouth *
17. Clouds covering head *1
18. Seven stars *
19. Single whip *
20. Shrinking and bending elbow *1
21. Stepping forward and shooting hands *1
22. Whirlwind feet *
23. Shrinking, bending elbow and keeping one fist upward
24. Scorpion waving tail *4
25. Lion opening big mouth *
26. Stepping forward and pushing palm *2
27. Leveling two palms while stepping back *
28. Turning back and wrenching hands *
29. Stepping forward and pushing palm *
30. Turning back and stretching leg *
31. Patting instep while standing on one leg *1
32. Bending left elbow *
33. Splitting leg *
34. Bending right elbow *
35. Putting down hands
36. Lion opening big mouth *
37. Clouds covering over head *1
38. Seven stars *
39. Single whip *
40. Shrinking and bending elbow
41. Stepping forward and shooting hands *1
42. Patting right instep on left leg *1
43. Thrusting palm three times
44. Patting left instep on right foot *1
45. Thrusting palm three times
46. Hungry tiger seizing food
47. Palms intercrossing while squatting
48. Stepping forward and baring fists
49. Sidestepping
50. Pounding fist
51. Rolling hands while shrinking *
52. Stepping forward and thrusting palm *2
53. Clouds covering head
54. Sitting on mountain *2
55. Restoring to preparation posture *

Shaolin Shaohongquan (Beijing Physical Institute Publishing Co. (BPIPC))
1. *
2. *
3. *
4. Liu *
5. *
6. Cai *
7. Liu *
8. Cai *
9. Turn around and bump the leg
10. Liu *
11. Cai *1
12. Pushing down hand while sinking the body
13. Cai *
14. Cai *1
15. Low bow stance with arm swing *3
16. Tiger opens its massive jaws
17. Cai *1
18. Left cloud over head
19. Cai *
20. Cai *
21. Grabbing hand ties the body *1
22. *1
23. Cai *
24. Liu *
25. Scorpion tail and Tiger mouth *4
26. Cai *2
27. Cai *
28. Cai *
29. Cai *
30. Cai *
31. *1
32. *
33. Pushing down hand while sinking the body
34. Cai *
35. *
36. Pushing down hand while sinking the body
37. Tiger opens its massive jaws
38. Left cloud over head
39. Cai *1
40. Cai *
41. Cai *
42. Grabbing hand while sinking the body
43. Cai *1
44. *1
45. Liu *2
46. Liu *2
47. Liu *2
48. Liu *
49. Liu *2
50. Liu *2
51. Liu *2
52. Liu *
53. Liu *1
54. Jamming heart fist
55. Liu *1
56. Low groin punch
57. *1
58. Cai *2
59. Cloud hand coordinated with cannon punch
60. *2
61. *

* These lyrics share identical Chinese characters. The deviations are entirely due to the different interpretations of the translators.
*1 This lyric differs by one Chinese character from the other marked noted lyric(s).
*2 This lyrics differs by two Chinese characters form the other noted lyric(s).
*3 BPIPC shares two characters with Cai and one with Liu, however Cai and Liu are completely different.
*4 BPIPC combines two of Cai’s lyrics changing “lion” to “tiger”. Classically, this movement is referred to as “Lion”.

[Starchaser107]

thanks Gene :)

[Songshan]

Wow!! Nice work Gene! You should sticky this in the forum for everyone else.

[hanguolaohu]

I'm guessing "Cai" is "Cai Longyun" and "Liu" is "Liu Baoshan" and his 3 sons, right?

Hanguolaohu

[GeneChing]

Hanguolaohu: Cai is Cai Liuhai. That was from the book Shaolin Kung Fu, which was one of the early ones and is long out of print. If memory serves, it had diagrams (in cartoon-like monk drawings) for yijinjing, xiaohong, a gun and a dao set. I can't remember which ones, though. If you really want to know, I suppose I could look it up.

Liu is Liu Haichao, who was the chief editor of the Taguo 5 volume set (http://www.martialartsmart.net/bslx115.html), and is a son of Liu Baoshan, so you're sort of right on this one.

Songshan: I don't think this is worth stickying. Only a portion of us practice Xiaohong - remember, there are other Shaolin systems beyond Songshan and I've already posted a lot of lyrics for BSL that I never stickied. What's more, most English-speaking practitioners don't really concern themselves with lyrics.

I have another lyric set for Xiaohong out of the Zhongguo, Songshan Shaolinsi Wugong Quansi Miji series that was done in 1999. It's in Chinese though, so I'd have to translate it, and that seems like a bother right now. Maybe some other time. Or better yet, maybe one of you can do it...

[DoGcHoW108]

sweet s*** man, thanks.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT9IgCqFjgA&search=xiaohong%20quan

have fun.

:D

[The Willow Sword]

That is a good form. Certainly better than any i learned at you know where.


As always, TWS

[Royal Dragon]

Wow, looks like I learned and *Abridged* version of that set....:(

[richard sloan]

please watch again...lol...

[David Jamieson]

if you don't watch again, you don't get the english part. :)

nice find spj

[Royal Dragon]

Awesome set!1

I wonder how old it is?

[Pk_StyLeZ]

and people say shaolin is all wushu and flashy and pretty.....
even though it wasnt flashy..i have to admit..it did look pretty and powerful =)
i think i might change the way i do my shao hung chang now =)
he influence me on a couple of moves =)

[onyomi]

Here's my shifu's version. I think as it's a famous set, there is a wide range of variation.

http://www.kungfuloung.com.tw/sample008.wmv

[Royal Dragon]

onyomi,
The set you are showing is not even remotely the same set. Although it has the same name, it looks more like a Tai Tzu Hong Chuan set to me. Tai Tzu Hong Chuan has 4 Xiao Hong sets, and 6 Da Hong Sets. Some branches variy, but the system prevelant in Taiwan is as I described.

Just to confuse you though, the emperor Sung Tai Tzu is said to have created the Xiao Hong Chuan set being discussed in this thread. I have never found a Tai Tzu branch outside of Shaolin that teaches it though.

Reguardless of what it is, I must say your teacher shows a spectacular performance. He is very skilled.

[qixingmantis]

Xioa hong ...great form...Shi Yanzi teaches it slightly differently...when i say this his hand positioning is slightly different..but all in all all the postures are the same....his foot positioning at the end is slightly different he teaches the toe up position after collapse the stomach strike...but ive seen other forms with the toe down...but after his explanation the toes up makes more sense...also in this demonstration the shrink the body in ding bu his leading arm travels from upper straight down Yan zi Shifu..sweeps across as in the silk reeling exercise...or the ultimate skill exercise....also his butting an elbow is pushing forward rather that traveling diagonally....but all in all great form either way....i like his pushing a palm from a diagonal cutting palm...shi yanzi uses his negative arm as a parry while his leading arm presses the attack...followed by a pressing palm....

thanks for a great clip

namo ami to fou

[GeneChing]

I think I have footage of him in my Shaolin Trips video (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvd-gc001.html). I'm tempted to say it's in the section that has traditional kung fu demonstration from the Academic Symposium in 2003, but I'm not sure (there's a good complete version of Shi Deyang demonstrating in that part). My other guess is that he was one of the CWA masters in the tournament itself. Then again, it might not have been my video at all.

Oh man, I've seen so much video footage, I can't even remember what's in my own freaking video anymore. :rolleyes:

[Sal Canzonieri]

Wow, looks like I learned and *Abridged* version of that set....:(

An abridged version of THAT?
THat's one of the shortest Shaolin forms, why would
anyone bother making it any shorter?

THis guy does the form not so modern wushuy but still very external.
If you see it done with internal/external idea, you will see the primitve Tai Tzu quan
in the form, it's pretty much all TZQ.

[GeneChing]

The shortened form cuts the form in half. It's used to teach students that only have a few lesson sessions or are very low level in skill. I've seen it taught to many tourists at Shaolin and heard of it being taught in short seminars.

The form above is the standard form. It's execution is pretty standard too. I agree with Sal that this rendition is still fairly external, although the play rate at youtube tends to blur the expression of fajing. You do see more internal versions at Shaolin, mostly from the internal temple monks or the older masters.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here's my shifu's version. I think as it's a famous set, there is a wide range of variation.

http://www.kungfuloung.com.tw/sample008.wmv

This isn't Shaolin Xiao Hung Quan, it is taiwanese Tai Tzu Quan from the Mai Hua Long Fist system.

What you are correctly observing is that both forms come from the same roots, Tai Tzu Long Fist.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The shortened form cuts the form in half. It's used to teach students that only have a few lesson sessions or are very low level in skill. I've seen it taught to many tourists at Shaolin and heard of it being taught in short seminars.

The form above is the standard form. It's execution is pretty standard too. I agree with Sal that this rendition is still fairly external, although the play rate at youtube tends to blur the expression of fajing. You do see more internal versions at Shaolin, mostly from the internal temple monks or the older masters.

Yep, the internal version is nice thing to see.

When you see internal version of such Shaolin forms, you can see how Chen tai ji developed out of Shaolin's Tai Tzu, Hong Quan, Pao Chuoi, and other forms.

By the way, I've been making a chart that shows the one to one correspondance between the Chen Lao Jiao form and the equivalent moves in Shaolin Tai Tzi Long Fist forms.

The Lao Jia is supposed to be a few forms merged into one Chen tia ji form,
and you can follow where you are in the Tai tzi form along side the Chen TJ form pretty well.

What I'd like to do is get an expert Chen person to do the form next to someone doing the Shaolin Tai Tzu form and photograph the moves to show how Chen is derived from the Shaolin TZ long fist form.

Maybe publish it in your mag, Gene?

[bungbukuen]

Originally posted by Sal Canzonieri
What I'd like to do is get an expert Chen person to do the form next to someone doing the Shaolin Tai Tzu form and photograph the moves to show how Chen is derived from the Shaolin TZ long fist form.


It has already been done. Definitely talk to Jarek Szymanski. He is an extensive researcher on internal fighting systems and has lived in China for well over 10 years now (http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/aboutme.html).

Not only has he already published a large amount of materials on the connections between Chen Jia Tai Ji and Shaolin Tai Zu Quan, but also holds in his collection extensive primary and secondary research on the topic and more http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/chenboxingmanuals.html.

You should definitely talk to him as a key source. He is very friendly and a strong beleiver in the open exchange of information. His homepage is here http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/index.html.


BBK

[Sal Canzonieri]

Bah. I emailed him many times and he doesn't discuss.

I know how to do both the Shaolin Tai Tzu and the Chen Lao Jia
and what I am attempting is a table that shows move by move what is the Shaolin equivalent root move and form for each move in the Chen Loa Jia form and eventually to do the same thing for the Chen 108 Move Long Fist form.

Knowing how to do the forms makes a big difference.

[David Jamieson]

he makes this comment onn his site.


After examining the Chen clan writings and comparing them with "Qi Jiguang's Boxing Canon" and "Taizu Xia Nan Tang", Tang Hao found out that twenty nine postures of "Long-range Boxing" can be found in "Qi Jiguang's Boxing Canon" and eleven in "Taizu Xia Nan Tang"; for "Cannon Boxing" and five sets of "Thirteen Postures", twenty can be found in "Qi Jiguang's Boxing Canon" and nine in "Taizu Xia Nan Tang". Hence Tang Hao suspected that "Taizu Xia Nan Tang" was, together with "Qi Jiguang's Boxing Canon", the basis for Chen clan empty hand martial art. In Tang's opinion all other techniques were created by Chen Wangting, excluding spear and staff (which, according to "Wenxiu Version", were not original Chen techniques).

[onyomi]

This isn't Shaolin Xiao Hung Quan, it is taiwanese Tai Tzu Quan from the Mai Hua Long Fist system.

What you are correctly observing is that both forms come from the same roots, Tai Tzu Long Fist.

Cool! I'm impressed you all can recognize it. Since most of my Shifu's Longfist comes from either Han Qingtang or Wang Songting and their students, and since they both came from Shandong, I'd guess it would be fair to say this is Shandong Longfist (they call it Jiaomen Longfist cuz it was often practiced by Moslems).

My shifu has several forms called "Taizu" Longfist, but he doesn't lump his Xiao Hong-quan in with that category (though all LF come from Taizu originally). I think it is just because it was a popular form and therefore included a lot of variation. If it really was the invention of Shaolin, then by the time it got to Shandong and spent a couple hundred years there it is not surprising it is very different (or perhaps they're totally unrelated and just share a name?).

[Sal Canzonieri]

Cool! I'm impressed you all can recognize it. Since most of my Shifu's Longfist comes from either Han Qingtang or Wang Songting and their students, and since they both came from Shandong, I'd guess it would be fair to say this is Shandong Longfist (they call it Jiaomen Longfist cuz it was often practiced by Moslems).

My shifu has several forms called "Taizu" Longfist, but he doesn't lump his Xiao Hong-quan in with that category (though all LF come from Taizu originally). I think it is just because it was a popular form and therefore included a lot of variation. If it really was the invention of Shaolin, then by the time it got to Shandong and spent a couple hundred years there it is not surprising it is very different (or perhaps they're totally unrelated and just share a name?).

Well, the trouble is that ther are a lot of Xiao Hong Quan and Da Hong Quan forms all over China, they are all different.

Some are based on tai tzi and some are based on Moslem martial arts.

Tai tzi Quan long fist is composed of Shaolin Lohan and Moslem Hong Quan, with internal aspects from unverifiable sources (Hua Mt. internal martial arts).
Shaolin adopted 3 of these Tai Tzu Long Fist forms some time after the Emperor visted Shaolin.

Abbott Fu Yu (or Fu Ju) combined Tai Tzu and Lohan forms with those of other styles during the Sung Dynasty and created the Shaolin Jing Gang Style. Also, the Kan Jia forms were developed around that time as well.

[Sal Canzonieri]

he makes this comment onn his site.


Yeah, but all these "scholars" are not doers, (even though they are agreeing with me) they don't know how to do the forms they write about, so they don't see what reality shows, that all the moves in Chen Lao Jia form are from Shaolin Tai Tzu Quan.

Of course what Chen has added is more deeper internal ideas, such as silk reeling, etc. But even these things are already there, they just brought them out more and made them more prominant.

There is also the 108 Move Long Fist form that ancient Chen style has.
I find most of the moves in that form also in the Chang Family Nei Jia Quan style from the neighboring area adjacent to where Chen village is.

[richard sloan]

(there's a good complete version of Shi Deyang demonstrating in that part)...

hey gene is deyang is doing xiao hong chuan or something else...?

[Banjos_dad]

smooth nice footwork, especially for a guy of his proportions & maybe older age. I am fairly positive he's older than me.
Looks like he was rendering the form in an instructional way, putting the influence on displaying the moves rather than going full power with it. Good way to display precision while still maintaining a flowing pace. And cohesive & enjoyable to watch.

[Banjos_dad]

I'm tempted to say it's in the section that has traditional kung fu demonstration from the Academic Symposium in 2003, but I'm not sure (there's a good complete version of Shi Deyang demonstrating in that part).

Shi Deyang is the Bomb. The way he demonstrates Da Tong Bei Quan in his video reminds me of this other man's style, sort of an expository, illustrative style.

anyway when i watch someone like this i realize how much better my footwork could be. lol and yeah, my hands could improve too i suppose.
thanks SPJ

[onyomi]

Taizu Longfist is considered "the Mother of Northern Longfist," and since Longfist is considere the Mother of Northern martial arts, some people see it as the progenitor of most modern Northern CMA. The original set, however, was very simple and rarely practiced anymore. It's just like a set of postures with a number of move variations you can go to from those postures. There are Taizu Longfist forms as well, but they are newer, probably late Ming-early Qing at the earliest.

Also, "first" doesn't necessarily mean "best." Is Beng-bu the "ultimate" Praying Mantis form just because it was the first? No. In fact, it's pretty darn simple and everything it does is done as well or better in other, newer Mantis forms. You can gain insight into the development of the primary elements of PM by practicing Beng-bu, just as you can gain some insight into the development of Northern CMA by practicing Taizu, but these are not "the ultimate" just because they're the oldest.

[Royal Dragon]

can gain insight into the development of the primary elements of PM by practicing Beng-bu, just as you can gain some insight into the development of Northern CMA by practicing Taizu

Reply]
Actually, this is a very good point. This is one reson why I look towards the really old forms. It's sort of like starting with the foundations first.

It is also good to look at forms that imediatley descended from Tai Tzu as well, especially if you are digging into the core esscence of an art.

[Royal Dragon]

Do you have anything of intrest to offer?

[Xian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao1SpJVK_5g

Can anybody tell me how old this form is ?


Kind Regards,
Xian

[RenDaHai]

I can't watch YouTube as its blocked in China,

But I am assuming it is Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan?

There is some argument as to how old this form is;

By the Oral Tradition here in Shaolin, masters say it was created 1000 years ago in the song dynasty, during a meeting of 18 great masters of 18 schools. But there are many versions of this story, and the style created varies between Taizu Quan, Pao Quan and Hong Quan, and maybe all of them. Some say even Xiao Hong Quan predates this time and it was one of the 18 styles used to refine the new forms.

Certainly the name may be 1000 years old, but as to the exact form its anyones guess. There are some versions that split from shaolin 200 years ago, and the form remains unchanged so we can say at least that. My best guess is its remained the same from about the year 1600.....but thats conjecture, I don't think anyone is sure. I hope its 1000 years old, that would be cool.

There is a written poem describing the names of the moves in this form, does anyone know how old the oldest written version of this is?

Certainly its one of shaolins ultimate forms and generally considered the most important;
Xiao Hong Quan, Xiao Tong Bei Quan, Xiao Pao Quan, Da hong Quan, Luohan Quan.

[Xian]

I can't watch YouTube as its blocked in China,

But I am assuming it is Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan?

There is some argument as to how old this form is;

By the Oral Tradition here in Shaolin, masters say it was created 1000 years ago in the song dynasty, during a meeting of 18 great masters of 18 schools. But there are many versions of this story, and the style created varies between Taizu Quan, Pao Quan and Hong Quan, and maybe all of them. Some say even Xiao Hong Quan predates this time and it was one of the 18 styles used to refine the new forms.

Certainly the name may be 1000 years old, but as to the exact form its anyones guess. There are some versions that split from shaolin 200 years ago, and the form remains unchanged so we can say at least that. My best guess is its remained the same from about the year 1600.....but thats conjecture, I don't think anyone is sure. I hope its 1000 years old, that would be cool.

There is a written poem describing the names of the moves in this form, does anyone know how old the oldest written version of this is?

Certainly its one of shaolins ultimate forms and generally considered the most important;
Xiao Hong Quan, Xiao Tong Bei Quan, Xiao Pao Quan, Da hong Quan, Luohan Quan.


Yes its Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan performed by Shi Guo Song. Okay this are some informations thank you for that :)

And what is about Lao Hong Quan ? When you talking about Xiao Hong Quan you aren't referring to Lao Hong Quan dont you ?

Its a pity that you cant see youtube. I have uploaded a version of Luhan Quan from an old kung fu documentary, where a monk performes it and it looks totally different than the version Shi De Yang does.



Kind regards,
Xian

[RenDaHai]

I'm talking about xiao hong quan, Lao hong quan is a whole other issue... I am only familiar with one form of lao hong quan, but i think there are 3 or 4. I'm pretty sure Sal (another forum member) is familiar with them.

In all my years training Shaolin I have encountered about 30 different Luohan Quans closely related to Song Shan.

We did a whole thread on it a while ago.

There are 2 major forms, quite different in appearence, and there are rumored to be 18 forms in the complete system.

Deyang has a version of both major forms. The one in his DVDs is a short version (38 moves) of 'cross hands luohan' (starts with hands crossing). My version of this form has over 100 moves, and I think even longer versions are known.

There is also an entire sect of gong fu called Luohan men, that has many different versions. Plus many other styles will have a form called luohan quan. Usually a Tang Lang school will have a form called luohan quan, southern schools do also... its a very popular name. Even some Wudang schools have a luohan quan!

[LFJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao1SpJVK_5g

Can anybody tell me how old this form is ?


Kind Regards,
Xian


Its a pity that you cant see youtube. I have uploaded a version of Luhan Quan from an old kung fu documentary, where a monk performes it and it looks totally different than the version Shi De Yang does.

Actually that is the video you linked to in the previous post, not Xiaohongquan by Shi Guosong.

Luohanquan is not one form, but a whole system. A number of different systems use the name as well.

[Xian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ID-sqwjCOU&feature=related

Sorry. This is the Xiao Hong Quan from Shi Guo Song.

I answer on the rest later. :)



Kind regards,
Xian

[Phil Redmond]

I can't watch YouTube as its blocked in China,

But I am assuming it is Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan?

There is some argument as to how old this form is;

By the Oral Tradition here in Shaolin, masters say it was created 1000 years ago in the song dynasty, during a meeting of 18 great masters of 18 schools. But there are many versions of this story, and the style created varies between Taizu Quan, Pao Quan and Hong Quan, and maybe all of them. Some say even Xiao Hong Quan predates this time and it was one of the 18 styles used to refine the new forms.

Certainly the name may be 1000 years old, but as to the exact form its anyones guess. There are some versions that split from shaolin 200 years ago, and the form remains unchanged so we can say at least that. My best guess is its remained the same from about the year 1600.....but thats conjecture, I don't think anyone is sure. I hope its 1000 years old, that would be cool.

There is a written poem describing the names of the moves in this form, does anyone know how old the oldest written version of this is?

Certainly its one of shaolins ultimate forms and generally considered the most important;
Xiao Hong Quan, Xiao Tong Bei Quan, Xiao Pao Quan, Da hong Quan, Luohan Quan.

I'm going to PM you a proxy IP addy that you should be able to use in China.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Lao Hong Quan, which one?

There is the series of 3 sets that are practicing in the Denfeng village area that are called Lao Hong Quan, it's a mixture of Shaolin Rou Quan and Hong quan, it was said that Zhou Kuangyin brought some Hong Quan (from Henan or Shanxi) routines that he had developed and the monks showed him Rou Quan and the Lao Hong Quan sets are the result of this merger.

THEN, there is the old original longer version of Xiao Hong Quan, which is called Lao Hong Quan on the different Shaolin DVDs that are out there.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ren, that Luohan video he posted is the one of the guy that you were looking all over for to learn his Luohan Quan from.

[Eugene]

I have watched that Lohan, Luohan video alot since I saw it a year ago by accident.

Its a pritty amazing form, this guy has a good condition it seems also.

I have looked at that Lohan topic of RenDaHai with much intrest. I dont know yet if he found this cool Arhat guy.

Peace Eugene

[Xian]

Lao Hong Quan, which one?

There is the series of 3 sets that are practicing in the Denfeng village area that are called Lao Hong Quan, it's a mixture of Shaolin Rou Quan and Hong quan, it was said that Zhou Kuangyin brought some Hong Quan (from Henan or Shanxi) routines that he had developed and the monks showed him Rou Quan and the Lao Hong Quan sets are the result of this merger.

THEN, there is the old original longer version of Xiao Hong Quan, which is called Lao Hong Quan on the different Shaolin DVDs that are out there.

Sorry for answering so late.

I know only one version of Lao Hong Quan. I think it was a version from your channel.

@the Luohan Form.

Ive tried to find the form on the net, but I wasn't able, to see it anywhere again. For me its interesting that I think he moves very different as for example seen in Da Hong Quan Forms or other Forms of Shaolin.


Kind Regards,
Xian

[Xian]

Ah and also the Luohan Form from this impressing monk is from the Documentary "This is Kung Fu " I took it from there and also a video of the Wutai Shan on my channel.
If you dont know it may help.
http://www.lovehkfilm.com/reviews/this_is_kung_fu.htm

Its from 1983, so around 27 years ago. I think the monk must been around 40 or 50 on the vid. So in the best way I hope he is around 60 today, If he is still alive.


Kind regards,
Xian

[Xian]

http://www.kungfulibrary.com/shaolin-hong-quan.htm

Hey all, does anyone know this book :) ?

It is worth buying ?

Thanks,
Xian

[RenDaHai]

I have the book.

Its only so so. I must stress that although this is may be a lineage related to shaolin, this form is NOT shaolins Xiao hong or da hong or lao hong quan. The technique may be distantly related but it is not the hong quan your thinking of.

If you have a good grasp of the northern styles you may be able to get something from this book, otherwise I don't think its really worth it.

[Xian]

I have the book.

Its only so so. I must stress that although this is may be a lineage related to shaolin, this form is NOT shaolins Xiao hong or da hong or lao hong quan. The technique may be distantly related but it is not the hong quan your thinking of.

If you have a good grasp of the northern styles you may be able to get something from this book, otherwise I don't think its really worth it.

Okay thank you. No I am a beginner in Northern Styles. I am more used to Siu Lam Weng Chun or Yip Man Wing Chun.


Kind Regards,
Xian

[GeneChing]

I just posted Shaolin Trips: Flashback (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=937), which discusses my relationship with xiaohong.

[Xian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xub2tLJYzRY&feature=channel_video_title

Another Nice version of the Xiao Hong Quan I think.


Kind regards,
Xian

[GeneChing]

If there's a simple one-page representation of the entire lyric set, I can copy it and send it to you. Let me get back to you on this...

[GeneChing]

Follow the link for the vid

98-year-old Chinese grandma stuns spectators with amazing kung fu moves (https://www.scmp.com/video/china/3137265/98-year-old-chinese-grandma-stuns-spectators-amazing-kung-fu-moves)
Avery Choi

Ninety-eight year old Zhang Hexian has stunned spectators with amazing kung fu moves at a martial arts competition in China’s eastern Zhejiang province. Otherwise known as “kung fu grandma”, Zhang practises Xiao Hong Quan, one of the most popular forms of Shaolin boxing, and has been training since the age of 5.

threads
Kung-Fu-Granny-Zhang-Hexian (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70110-Kung-Fu-Granny-Zhang-Hexian)
Songshan-Shaolin-Lyrics-Xiaohongquan (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?36983-Songshan-Shaolin-Lyrics-Xiaohongquan)
Give-it-up-to-the-elderly!!!!! (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?57037-Give-it-up-to-the-elderly!!!!!)