Mantis Teachers: What throws are in your curriculum? [Archive]

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Oso

06-01-2005, 04:32 AM

Ok, how about a different question?

Please list the throws you teach in your mantis curriculum that you consider to be traditional mantis techniques.

I don't have many since I've just been doing mantis for about 21 months.

1 - Deng Ta - from either 'inside' the doors or from outside the lead arm - basically sweeping/reaping one direction with the leg and chopping accross the upper body/head the opposite direction with the arm

2 - Deng pu/bu(?) - I only know this one way ending with a throw or an arm bar depending on how much I torque it on the way down.

3 - Waist Chopping - I know it by way of the forms (Bung Bu from Pong Lai and White Ape Steals the Peach from Jake) but have yet to pull it off against a resisting opponent.

That's it for me.

Anything else I teach is from a wrestling/jujitsu/judo perspective.

mantid1

06-01-2005, 04:52 AM

Good luck!

I have brought this up before, many times. I feel that the throwing/grappling is the mantis weak point.

I have been told "mantis does not have a weak point". Then when a question like this is asked no one can give a list of throws/holddowns or how they drill them.

If a person wants to go by the mantis theary of knocking your opponent out before they grab you or get you to the ground, good luck. :)

Oso

06-01-2005, 06:47 AM

well, my intent was to get teachers to talk about what they do teach in the way of throws.

What is the name of the throw?

What form is the movement found in, if any?

What is the basic principle behind how it is applied?

Instead of trying to get a 'list' from the Shanghai school I thought we might offer up what we do teach and work from there.

Three Harmonies

06-01-2005, 08:41 AM

Three Harmonies

06-01-2005, 08:52 AM

Actually why am I wasting all of your time.....classify throws by how they are applied....circle, arc, spiral. This is much easier and convenient, especially when talking with other stylists!
I cannot suggest a better book on throwing, actually on anything MA related, than my teacher Tim Cartmells book "effortless combat throws." Worth three times it's weight in gold! Read this and then come back. I think it can only help your questions guys, and he is much better at articulating it than I am!

Jake :D

Oso

06-01-2005, 11:41 AM

Oso
Wow. Good question. I do not know single throw names per se. And it is hard for me to say what is "Mantis" and what is not since my teacher is also a Shuai Chiao expert. I wish I could help more.
First I am not sure it is important to see the techniques in our forms. A recent visit to Martello Laoshi (and with other previous high level masters) has confirmed my thoughts that eventually one becomes formless! After a bit the energy and technique of given movements are much more in depth and important than the actual forms.

I agree wholeheartedly and that was a point of discussion brought up by Shifu Scolaro at a training session for us earlier this year.

Now I have not reasched that level, so I am still enthralled with sets and, as you, look for movments in forms.

I'll be bold enough to say that I've touched that place a few times but not as a regular thing for sure. But that was because of the way my hung gar teacher taught from the very beginning. In a system that is form based then the student has to digest the form before it can be discarded for formlessness...but, I think we're saying the same thing here...

If I may venture into Xing Yi thinking for a moment......
The basic Wu Xing (Five Elements if you will) that constitute Xing Yi's core training are single movements practicesd over and over again. Now many take these movements to be too literal (Pi chuan is ALWAYS a chop right?). When in fact these movements represent a certain, specific energy. For instance Pi Chuan is indicative of any type of splitting energy, or any type of technique coming from above and down in a splitting motion (think axe). I can do this with my hand, fist, elbow, or even head.
So my point is....... look at how the energy is played in the form, and use that as your guide to apps from Mantis forms. It will truly change your perspective.

gotcha, totally. But, you have to be ok with stepping outside of the form or taking the movements out of the usual context. not every is ok with that. I outlined how I break a form apart mechanically to look for different apps in another thread recently

Mantid 1.... I would agree with you. Many claim that Mantis is a "complete" system, but as time moves on I see that fewer and fewer people have a grasp on throwing in Mantis (not only mantis. If I here one more idiot tell me that Xing YI is no good for throwing...... :mad: ). That is not to say it is not there, but few people really know what they are talking about with it. I hope this changes in the future. IMHO throwing is one of the best ways to end a fight. We focus on it more than anything at my school.

Just my....well more the 2 cents worth.
Jake :)

I think this thread would be a good place to start by sharing what we are doing with throws in our schools by trying to describe and illustrate them to each other.

mantis108

06-01-2005, 12:07 PM

Well, there are too many to actually list them all virtually all of our Shou Fa can be finished with throws or takedown althought mostly I would do them in the context of takedown definition by Oso.

Some notable ones not only found in CCK TCPM but also in greater Meihwa lines are:

Tanglang Puchan (Full trap and takedown)
Xian Ren Zhua Fa (clinch and takedown)
Fan Tian Fu Di (Trap & throw or takedown)
Tanglang Gouzi Bu (Trap & throw or takedown)
Xiao Chiao Lian Deng Ta (takedown and throw)
Furen Jian Deng Ta (kick and sweep)
Xie Feng Pan Zhou (strike or throw or takedown)
Chan Long Meng Yan Da (trap & throw or takedown)
Shuang Jiao Shuang Bang (throw or knock down)
Mo Pan Shou (throw or takedown)
Beng Dian Bian Yuhuan (throw or takedown)
Gwa Lan Die Fa (throw or takedown)
Tie Niu Geng Di (throw or takedown - shoot in and double leg)
Bai Yuan Xian Guo (throw or takedown)
Jin Long Xian Zhua (throw or takedown)

There are many more but just a few for sampling.

Mantis108

Oso

06-01-2005, 12:32 PM

sweet !!!! great list.

any way to get english translations????? you know how bad my chinese is. :cool:

Oso

06-01-2005, 01:30 PM

so, anything else claimed by a mantis guy would probably be SC techniques added at one point or another?

Oso

06-01-2005, 02:02 PM

sounds reasonable.

Why do you think the tactic of tripping hard enough to cause the head to impact the ground in a manner hard enough to render unconsiousness or death became such a staple of mantis strategy that other throwing techniques were eschewed?

mantis108

06-01-2005, 02:54 PM

Hi Oso,

Glad you enjoy the list. Sorry about that Chinese only. I was a bit short on time when I posted that. Here is the one with the English:

Tanglang Puchan (Full trap and takedown)
Mantis seize cicada - GM Chiu often shared this on the old MA magazines.

Xian Ren Zhua Fa (clinch and takedown)
Immortal pulls hair - I shared a version of this in the MQ already

Fan Tian Fu Di (Trap & throw or takedown)
Flipping the heaven overturning the earth

Tanglang Gouzi Bu (Trap & throw or takedown)
Manits Hooking Step

Xiao Chiao Lian Deng Ta (takedown and throw)
Small sweeping connecting mounting collapsing

Furen Jiao Deng Ta (kick and sweep)
Axe bladed kick mounting collapsing

Xie Feng Pan Zhou (strike or throw or takedown)
Diagonal divided coiling elbow

Chan Long Meng Yan Da (trap & throw or takedown)
Dragon wrapping eye covering strike

Shuang Jiao Shuang Bang (throw or knock down)
Double calling Double helping

Mo Pan Shou (throw or takedown)
Millstone hand

Beng Dian Bian Yuhuan (throw or takedown)
Crashing dotting transforming to Jade Ring

Gwa Lan Die Fa (throw or takedown)
Basket carrying throwing method

Tie Niu Geng Di (throw or takedown - shoot in and double leg)
Iron ox ploughs the field

Bai Yuan Xian Guo (throw or takedown)
White ape presents fruit

Jin Long Xian Zhua (throw or takedown)
Golden dragon presents claw - I have also share this video clip with the MQ forum.

Hope this helps.

Warm regards

Mantis108

K.Brazier

06-01-2005, 04:39 PM

Single leg hop of 3rd beng bu is a throw on one leg:
My left rear ankle hooks his right calf or ankle and pulls his leg towrds me.
As this happens the hand motions are going on to keep him off balance.

This throw works well when he has started to move back or lean back.

This single leg hop is not in HK 7* verson, but I have seen it in other versions besides the one I practice.

In the 2nd rd of Mantis Hands also has this throw, there the hop is more apparent.
This type of hop also appears in Bazhou. The moves where jumping on a single leg 2 times.

I see this as a popular throw in Judo with a slight differance of hands, since no punches in jodo randori.
The off balance principle is the same.

Throw and trip is a moot point. The chinese word Shuai covers both.

There is also the PM superman throw. That is my name since it looks like a man trying to imitate superman.
Stand on one leg with body perpendicular to floor. 2 Arms punch out and one leg shoots behind, The entire body is perpendicular to the floor, and so looks like you are trying to imatate superman fling.
It is a throw with one leg off the floor.

This type of leg method is also popular in judo.
I learned it in Zhong hu yen, but I see it Wei Xiaotang do it in his 8 Step Zhai yao also.

Oso, the throws you mentioned are the important ones, the variations come out of the hand techniques as well as the reversals.

But there are also the WWF style throws such as uprooting by the torso and things like the firmans carry.
Called dao ko dai-empty his pocket, becuase when you lift hm up he is upside down and his pocket contents fall on the floor.

Also, an application for the mantis siezes cicada posture where you hold him upside down and smash his head on the floor. You would be good at those kinds with your superior body mass.

There is also the application of following hands leads the goat. The 1st move of beng bu second rd is the posture I am talking about, the hands are slightly different.
I showed this to my aikido partner and he said wow! Mantis has Aikido moves! (He teaches in Seattle now).

The principle is pulling the opponent in a direction he can not possible have stability.

Eg if he stand in a horse stance and you are directly in fron of him and pull him forward he will fall unless he readjusts his feet.
The clever aspect of this move is how you start at the side gate and jump to the front gate so you can pull him before he knows where to readjust his feet.

One day Shifu played a game.
He taught the move to my sparring buddy while I wasn't around(cuz I was picking on him). Then, when we played I got thrown in a way I couldn't comprehend.
Haha teacher's idea of a good time.

Oso

06-01-2005, 08:02 PM

You would be good at those kinds with your superior body mass.

You callin' me FAT???!!!???

:D

way late and I'm tired...good posts and I'll reread them in the AM.

thanks.

18elders

06-01-2005, 09:26 PM

I was wondering when u would chime in and save us mantis practitioners

i have seen a throw in mantis like the judo hara goshi(im sure not correct spelling).
I see many throws in mantis( at least i concider them throws).

Oso

06-02-2005, 07:55 AM

Robert, thanks so much. Printed for long term study ! Visuals to come eventually????

Any links or sources to see Master Chui's articles?

Single leg hop of 3rd beng bu is a throw on one leg:
My left rear ankle hooks his right calf or ankle and pulls his leg towrds me.
As this happens the hand motions are going on to keep him off balance.

3rd move, 1st road? Right leg hanging, Rt hand grasping and Lt hand striking?

sweet move!

I see this as a popular throw in Judo with a slight differance of hands, since no punches in jodo randori.

possibly this one

http://judoinfo.com/images/nauta/kosotogake.htm

or

http://judoinfo.com/images/nauta/kouchigake.htm

The off balance principle is the same.

I've been saying for a while now that if we paid more attention to the similarities than the differences we'd learn more of our own art.

Throw and trip is a moot point. The chinese word Shuai covers both.

good point.

just to be clear: when I talk about the reason for deciding to stay standing or go to ground (and my classification of all things throwy as 'throw' or 'takedown') with opponent A it is because opponent B may be a factor.

Next question:

Japanese arts describe application of kata as 'bunkai' (sp?)
Recently I've been told that 'bunkai' is ANY interpretation of a kata's movement and that there is still the ORIGINAL application as intended by the forms creator. I have forgotten the word he used but that's irrelevant to my question. This teacher went on to talk about how the loss of the original intent and subsequent reinvention/interpretation of intent has led to much bickering and arguing in his world.

I found that a somewhat funny parallel to our world. :)

So, my question to the more learned brethren here is about the original intent of the forms and how do we know that a movement was a throw or just a striking application.

It would seem that the only way to KNOW is if there is written documentation, verifiable as belonging to LGY (for example only!).

I think uncovering the history and mystery of mantis throwing and groundfighting will involve determining the age of an application of a movement.

Did the Great Fan do this move or did LGY do it?

seung ga faat

06-02-2005, 02:35 PM

Throwing is one of the four types of applications found in every attacking and protecting sequence. Remember showed you that throw in bung bo kuen .
Just look for the body separating movements.
________
pc-50 (http://www.yamaha-tech.com/wiki/Yamaha_PC-50)
________
How To Make A Stew (http://www.cooking-chef.com/stewing/)

Oso

06-02-2005, 02:49 PM

yep, I think I remember now.

how's things in DC?

K.Brazier

06-02-2005, 04:18 PM

Oso,
The beng bu throw is in 3rd rd, not 1st.
Where you hop on one leg just before the belly punch.

Like Kosoto gake from your link.
That is extremely helpful to post those as they are so clear.

Three Harmonies

06-02-2005, 04:35 PM

Robert,
Many thanks for the info my friend. I will surely copy this and reference it. I echo Oso though, would it be possible to get some pics?? Great topic guys.

Jake :D

Oso

06-02-2005, 06:04 PM

Kevin, early in the 3rd road? I think I got it now. Thanks.

ok, someone needs to invent a Star Trek Transporter so we can get some real time action.

Just think of it: We all teleport in to a different school every day at 5:30. Get a couple hours in, grab some beers after and still be home in time to watch Southpark. :D

Three Harmonies

06-02-2005, 06:54 PM

sounds like a plan Stan! :D First round is on me :)

Gives a whole new meaning to..... "Screw you guys; I'm going home!" E. Cartman ;)

Jake :cool:

ninjaboy

06-02-2005, 09:10 PM

anyway, i completely concur with oso's post regarding interpretation....that moves from our forms are not black and white issues ie. this move is for this and that move is for that. there HAS to be more to it besides family preferences. again, maybe it is my personal desire to step out of the box having seen so many practitioners of the same art using different applications for the same moves of the same forms. having said that, i have experienced criticism from some in the past because of this lateral thinking approach but i really think that is the key to successful interpretation of the forms. to get too locked into tradition for tradition's sake may be losing the central piece of the jigsaw puzzle. i call this method of forms interpretation 'generic movement analysis' (catchy, eh? :) )

in other words, i try to look at how any move in any form i know can be used in a multitude of ways ie. striking, tripping, imposing imbalance, qin na, throwing etc. depending on the myriad of possible situations and how you insert the opponent.

if mantis is truly a 'battle field art' (which in itself i have an issue with....our specialtiy is empty hand fighting and all our weapon sets were brought in from other sources, yet, how many empty handed battles occurred 400 years ago? as if.......but anyway, i digress - perhaps a new thread for that), surely the forefathers of harsh, kill or be killed, mantis fighting must have been aware of more than most current forms interpretations would lead us to believe.

to look at a move in a form and realize ALL possibilities is what i strive to accomplish.

hmmmph. i don't even remember my other point now....that'll teach me for rambling. maybe more later : )

neil

Three Harmonies

06-03-2005, 12:23 AM

Neil
You do not say much, but when you speak it rings true my friend. You should write some articles you are very articulate.
To be honest I cannot agree more, or add to what you stated above.

Cheers
Jake :)

Oso

06-03-2005, 06:18 AM

It depends on whether it's "one point contact" or "two points contact".

between opponents?

contact w/ the ground?

Oso

06-03-2005, 12:49 PM

Sometime less words just won't make thing clear.

LOL, No, I'm sure it's because I'm dense.

Strike is "one point contact", a punch to the head or a kick to the nuts.

Throw is "two points contact", push the head down and kick the leg off and make your opponent's body rotate. Without two points contact intention, your move is only strike not throw.

ok, I see. Thanks.

hmmm, what about some aiki principles where there is only redirection and throwing with just one hand deflecting the strike and grabbing or adhering to the arm/hand?

Mika

06-03-2005, 01:26 PM

Many claim that Mantis is a "complete" system, but as time moves on I see that fewer and fewer people have a grasp on throwing in Mantis.

You wrote somewhere that you would like to go to Poland one of these days to see the Mantis there. Well, now that you are no stranger to Europe anymore, please visit them next time (I am sure there will be a next time :) ) you are here.

Of course, defining throwing is a little tricky, but if we go by the last accepted definition here (on the above post), then I would guess there are actually quite a few throws in the Mantis system.

I am sorry that as a beginner I cannot answer Oso's original question which is also the topic of this thread, so please forgive me for this OT rambling... :o

But here's a clip of some of the guys in Poland practicing some takedowns. Maybe not what y'all are looking for but hopefully you can find it useful.

http://www.potku.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=966

(only 25 seconds, size about 1.6 Mb)

I hope Shifu Slawomir Milczarek or my older brother Piotrek can shed some light on the topic as far as it relates to Yu family Qi Xing Tang Lang.

Cheers :)

mika

Three Harmonies

06-03-2005, 06:22 PM

Mika
I have heard great things about the groups in Poland, and hope to visit someday for sure. I did not mean to insinuate that there was NO ONE out there, I am just seeing very little. To be honest I have the same feelings about Xing Yi. I see very few Xing Yi schools practicing throws and takedowns. Then the occasional idiot that boldly proclaims that Xing Yi is a "striking art" not a throwing art! :mad: :mad:

Unfortunately I cannot get your clip to play on my quicktime. Can you send it privately? Thanks
Jake :D

Oso

06-03-2005, 08:16 PM

Like grabbing both hands on two guys wrist and throw them at the same time? Sorry to say that in my openion, "It's a big time big time". Hope I don't start another aikido debating here.

no, one hand on the punching arm, redirecting the attack, changing your footwork and body position and circles.

aiki do is a derivitive of aiki jutsu as far as my understanding of it goes and aiki jutsu was the also the pre curser to ju jutsu....i wish I could remember what jutsu meant versus do (way). but the difference I have seen between aiki do and aiki jutsu is defined by that difference.

just curious on your thoughts there, thanks again.

Mika

06-04-2005, 01:03 AM

Mika

Unfortunately I cannot get your clip to play on my quicktime. Can you send it privately? Thanks
Jake :D

Jake, please check your private messages. Thanks! :)

mika

K.Brazier

06-04-2005, 06:16 AM

Oso,
In Chinese jutsu is pronounced shu.
It is the same shu as in wushu.
It means skill.
So judo is the soft way then jujitsu is the soft skill.

It is fascinating to me that Southern Shaolin books from the end of the Ching or the beginning of the present era, about 100 years ago, often referred to their MA as roushu, which in Japanese is jujitsu.

Mika,
Sadly, I also could not view the much anticipated clip of the Poland club.
I have heard nothing but good of them both public and private.

Mika

06-04-2005, 08:39 AM

Mika,
Sadly, I also could not view the much anticipated clip of the Poland club.
I have heard nothing but good of them both public and private.

Shoot...I need to think about that one. If I am not mistaken, I use BS player to view those. I don't know if that helps at all.

Actually, I am at my Dad's house right now, and his Windows Media Player played the clip, and it has not been dl'ed from here before so it was not in his cache or anything. Y'all have the newest versions of whatever players you're using?

Here's a direct link to the clip: www.masters.fi/maahan.avi

Kevin, if you want, I can send them to you to your e-mail. I can give you mine through a PM (not the one you can send mail to through the board).

mika

German Bai Lung

06-04-2005, 09:11 AM

Hi,

Mika: Kevin got a Mac. So clips running best as MOV or MPG file.

Kevin: try download the VLC Player from here! (http://tc.versiontracker.com/product/redir/lid/492630/download-macosx.html) This player plays nearly everything with a corect Codec. The Clip he plays with no problem!

K.Brazier

06-05-2005, 06:03 AM

Hi Jochen,
Thanks, but it is a no go.
That software is for os 10 and I am os9.

This is the computer company agenda:
You buy a computer. It works fine for a year. As new software comes out your computer slowly becomes obsolete unless you pay $$ for the upgrades.

It is almost enuf to make you want to turn criminal.
(Notice, big brother, I said "almost!").