Village Piguaquan

[lamakwoklee]

I'm familiar with the forms of Tongbi-Pigua Quan. I have yet to locate books written about the art, or instructors who teach the art in the U.S. I'm curious about village Pigua Quan. How many well known forms are there in Hebei, and Shandong? I know of two Fists, a Palm, and a few numbered routes, as well as weapons. Is this the extent of the art?

[lamakwoklee]

Hello. No Piguaquan practitioners out there? I was under ther impression that it was one of the most popular, and well respected arts in North China, not to mention Taiwan. This applies to my Mizong Yi post as well.

[SPJ]

I have info on both Tong Bei and Pi Gua.

I may write a book on Tong Bei 5 basic palms and 24 hand sets in the future.

I love Pi Gua, too. But I do not think that I will be confident enough to write anything on it.

Best of luck in your search.

:D

[Shaolinlueb]

i know in modern wushu they have a tongbie and pigua form that look similar. are they the same or different?

[SPJ]

They are different.

They are similar in terms of large movements especially more flexibility around the shoulder and back.

Some of the moves exist thruout the Northern styles.

There are a lot of mixers all the time.

Pi Gua was recorded in Ming's general Qi Ji Kuang's book.

In the middle of Qing dynasty, there were 2 branches popular in Cang Zhou prefecture He Bei.

In 1928, the central Kuo Shu Guang was established in Nan Jing. Shaolin section chief Ma Ying Tu and professor Kuo Chang Shen combined the 2 branches.

In 1930's, Ma and Kuo wrote Feng Mo Gun (staff) and Pi Gua Dao (broadsword).

Kuo used all the elements of Miao Dao, incorporated the waist method of Pi Gua and steps of Tong Bei, and created 2nd routine of Miao Dao.

In Gang Shu: Yi Lu Pi Gua, Er Lu Green dragon, San Lu Tai shu, and big frames.

In Cang Zhou: Gua Quan, green dragon Quan, slow set Pi Gua, fast set Pi Gua, and Pao Zui.

Weapon: Feng Mo Gun, Pi Gua Dao and Miao Dao.

These are how modern Wushu contents came about.

:)

[lamakwoklee]

Thank you for your responses to my question. These are the best kind of response on this forum. You've provided me with information of relevance. I think that some of you may have mixed in post- 1928 Tongbi-Pi Gua Quan with "old" Pi Gua Quan. My interest is in "village" Pi Gua Quan of the variety taught by Adam Hsu and, GM Liu Yun Qiao's Wu Tan. This old Pi Gua Quan can also be seen in the curriculum of GM Chan Sau Chung of the genuine Dai Sing Pek Gwa.

I'm interested in the forms, and theory of this old Pi Gua. Also, I'm interested in locating any teachers of this art here in the U.S.

[lamakwoklee]

Oops! Upon re-reading my post, I think I may've mistated something. It's not that I have no interest in Tongbi-Pi Gua. In fact I would love to find an instructor who teaches this art in the U.S. I haven't been able to locate one myself. That's a pity.

I would say that after the three major internal arts, Tongbi-Pi Gua is THE most popular, and highly regarded traditional martial art in China. It's no accident that the coreographer for "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" is a famous Tongbi-Pi Gua Master who is a member of the Ma family.

[lamakwoklee]

Do any board members have knowledge about the village Pi Gua of the type included in Dai Sing Pek Gwa, and the Wu Tan of Taiwan curriculums? I'm looking for a listing of Pi Gua forms that is more expansive than that included in Wu Tan, but which is pre-1928 non-Tongbi-Pi Gua. Can anyone help me?

[count]

Thank you for your responses to my question. These are the best kind of response on this forum. You've provided me with information of relevance. I think that some of you may have mixed in post- 1928 Tongbi-Pi Gua Quan with "old" Pi Gua Quan. My interest is in "village" Pi Gua Quan of the variety taught by Adam Hsu and, GM Liu Yun Qiao's Wu Tan. This old Pi Gua Quan can also be seen in the curriculum of GM Chan Sau Chung of the genuine Dai Sing Pek Gwa.

I'm interested in the forms, and theory of this old Pi Gua. Also, I'm interested in locating any teachers of this art here in the U.S.
I'm pretty sure I don't agree with most of your observations about piqua here, but for what it's worth, (and this is true of any style of martial arts under the sun). the real piqua skills comes out of the training methods and basic exercises. It comes out of the body movement and fighting strategy. NOT THE FORMS!!!

I can't tell from your profile, but maybe you are in LA? Go see Jason Tsou in Monterey park.(http://chikungintl.com) Also in the rest of North America, you could look up Tony Yang in Akron, (http://wutangcenter.com/) Ohio, Adam Hsu's students in San Francisco, (especially Dan Farber. Try http://adamhsu.com first), Ma Long in New York. (http://www.wutang.org/) Su Yu Chang if he's ever there in New York also. John Hum in Canada, (http://www.wutang-canada.com/) James Guo also in Canada. (http://bajimen.com) Kurt Wong in Alaska. (http://www.wutanalaska.com/)

In the workshop I did with the so called genuine Chan Sau Chung, the piqua had a completely different flavor than all of the above. Maybe what I think Tongbei is like but I wouldn't really know about that. Closer to the Longfist I know. I guess it's a matter of taste.

[lamakwoklee]

Respectfully, I'm pretty sure you don't agree with my observations either. That's why I don't formally affiliate myself with any martial arts organization. I simply pick up what I can when opportunites arise. To do that I must know what to pick up, and what to leave. I'm attempting to develop an overview of Pi Gua Quan before GM Ma combined it with 24 Tongbi Quan among other arts to create Tongbi-Pigua Quan.

Wu Tan has a distinct flavor of Pi Gua, or Pikua/ Baji Quan if you like. I don't wish to insult anyone elses viewpoint, I simply maintain my own. I admire Wu Tan's presentation of Mi Men Tang Lang Quan, but that's another thread. Let me continue with Pi Gua Quan. I've read there was a Pi Gua Palm. Two Pigua Fists, there may have been a Pi Gua "structure", as well as numbered Pi Gua "routes". These were all totally unrelated to Baji Quan. Can anyone tell me about these?

[count]

Fair enough. I never formally studied any piqua so I really can't help. But there is also a linking form and a combination form that helps connect the piqua with the baji. If you are really more interested in training and usage, (and I am biased) go see Jason in LA.

[SPJ]

I can understand that people like to single out the moves or forms and trace them back to origins.

The truth of the matter is that there will always be mixers by the practitioners. Based on one's physique, learning, experiences and favorism.

I dun mind mixing Tong Bei/Pi Gua/Ba Ji at all.

Some old Ba Ji have very simple and straightforward moves.

I practice Tong Bei 5 palms and 24 linking hand sets, the first 8, intermediate 8 and advanced 8 hands since young/teens. I am used to them.

Pi Gua requires somewhat differently from Tong Bei. It really demands a lot from the back and the waist more than the Gymnastics. You have to bend all the way to reach your foot with a leg split etc.

I love Feng Mo Gun and Pi Gua Dao, and I suck at Miao Dao.

Wushu forms are actually easier than the older forms.

Count is correct. The body movements and basic exercises hold the key.

Tong Bei are difficult to learn.

And some of the Pi Gua moves may not be for everyone.

If you are a guy with a heavy chest and thick bicept or tricept, you really will have a tough time.

And of course, if you are middle age and stiff, ---

Heck, some of the moves, I am not able to do any more even though it was not a big deal, when I was a teen.

Tong Bei is ok. Pi Gua may not be for everyone.

:)