Bong sao/shoulder girdle

[AndrewS]

From my training log-

Take all this with a grain of salt- I could be wrong, and I haven't examined you or taken a detailed history, but I think I see what's going on in some parts of this and remain confused in others.

If you have a supraspinatis tendinitis/tendinosis, which is what this sounds like, this is a pretty common injury, one I've seen in Wing Chun guys frequently (my main training partner, one of bros, and a couple more people besides)- it is, in fact, the most common shoulder injury I've seen in Wing Chun. Bong sao mechanics are almost invariably the culprit, sometimes with an acute injury provoking the inflammatory process. The 'shrugging' action you decribe- raising the shoulder girdle- converts the supraspinatus from a stabilzer to performing a load-bearing function, something which is near-guarranteed to provoke injury.

The technical key to doing bong lies in proper use of shoulder girdle stabilzers (and, IMO, chest mechanics). From what I can tell the rhomboids, and lower and middle zones of the trapezius activate to retract, depress, and upwardly rotate the scapula (in english- for the right shoulder, the pie plate [scapula] in back pulls down, tilts back, and twists counter clockwise). During this, the line from the elbow to the humeral head in the glenoid fossa should be roughly perpendicular to the coronal plane (elbow shouldn't be outside the boundary of the shoulder joint- not the shoulder, the joint- elbow on line with a big delt= incoming injury). If you think about doing a heavy front press, elbows in tight, up to elbow just above shoulder level, then let the forearm drop and the shoulder rotate, you have the position for bong with appropriate shoulder stabilization. From this, you use the body to press in with the elbow- this avoids the 'lifting' action which people often make with bong. Incidentally- the hands at the sides position in form is an attempt to train this component of shoulder girdle stabilzation- pinching the elbows together= pulling the scapula together, and making bong from this position should essentially be just lifting the elbow and bring the arm in, leaving roughly the same pattern of shoulder girdle usage as in the fists-at-side position.

Successfully rehabbing this injury while doing Wing Chun means you must be absolutely strict about making these mechanics part of your motion. Learning to do all upperbody stuff with a nice connected shoulder girdle ain't a bad thing to work on, by any stretch. I've seen this make people come out much slicker than they went into the injury, just 'cos the price of making the mistake becomes so high.

Letting someone 'hang' on your bong, or rapid downward jerks on your bong when you're not properly relaxed can cause or exacerbate this injury.

Getting a feel for this mechanic can be some work- here are some useful things-

-pinching the elbows together with fists chambered, having someone put a hand on midback and cue you during this, making your bong sao, and while using bong in partner drills

-throwing bong on the dummy

-dummy work in general using the dummy to move yourself while *always* respecting your angles

-sled work

-those kelso shrugs I mentioned- body perpendicular to floor doing scapular retraction

-facepulls with bands (see EFS site)

-fatboy pullups (see EFS site)

-consider pullup shrugs- I haven't tried these yet, but they should work some of what's involved.

For second opinions- Andy Williams (sometime lurker on kfo) and John Crescione (sighted on the WCML) would be good guys to talk to.

Hope this helps,

Andrew

[curtis]

I agree with you problem, Ive seen it all to often!

I find the Bong soa is one of the most, missed used techniques ,that will really damage the rotator cuff FAST!
I believe the bong soa is a redirecting movement,Normaly done after contact has been made,(like from a taun soa, or biljee. or in chi soa.) it is structurally strong, if done correctly, The problem comes along when you try to lift the arm/shoulder, instead of hinging and stoping force useing muscles that are not intended for handleing that kind of power, instead of redirecting it,or just letting it go.

Ive had some in-depth conversations with other wingchun people from other schools.who use the bong soa somewhat differently than I do.( Im not going to go into it at this time, Why should I "TRY" to put my words in someone else's mouth, "so to speak"He said, She said!!! Im not going to play that game. )

BUT "AnyHow".
Either agree or disagree with my assessment of how the bong soa should be used, most people will tell you,if done wrong, you will Really hurt your self.

I am sorry to hear about your shoulder injury.
I hope it will not stop your studies of WC? Wing chun can offer you, so much more than you will see,than just looking at the surface.

there is a book out there called the 10 minute rotator cuff, it has some really good exercises to re build your shoulder. those mucsles dont heal quickly for most people, so take your time.

Good luck, I hope you get well soon!

C.A.G.

[AndrewS]

Curtis,

thanks for the condolances, but they're due elsewhere- this was my response to someone else's mention of a shoulder injury which seems similar to that of several of my associates whom I've wound up being consulting doc to.

Andrew

[clutchpan]

A_

love reading your knowledge...that is some rather deep input. i myself find the resistance rubberbands a great low impact workout for sore shoulders and to strengthen weak supporting muscles...i am always trying to rework my wc structure but poor rehab can also keep us out of the game for longer then we care to be...i take a chinese herb when i suffer poor chi sao or plain out bad structure soreness...the herb is Chin Koo...i rub jow on the joint injured as well...for this i use Zheng Gu Shui or Po Sum On...when the elbow deviates outside the shoulder width or is applied in a round arcing shape the shoulder suffers...it is back to the basics or drawing board...more Dan Chi Sao where your partner can observe the action of your shoulder and help you to correct your structure this isn't a bad thing...if left ignored it can become chronic and practise will cease.

best
>C

[stricker]

There's a lot of detail in that first post i'll have to go over it with an anatomy reference some time, but anyway, shouldn't the shoulder be forward in bon sao, and back for tan sao and the punch?

I agree i don't think it should ever be raised, except perhaps in some unusual situations, but for bon and tan the shoulder always down. If the shoulder comes up in bon it can be attacked by lifting under the elbow, also it seems weaker anyway.

[AndrewS]

Howard,

I use Zheng Gu Shui for joint probs, too; what's the scoop on this Chin Koo stuff?

Stricker,

I do sort of the opposite mechanic, though it's more about what's stabiziling when- even if you leave the scapula in roughly the same place w/ regard to distance from the coronal plane, what gets recruited to stabilize is gonna change between the two positions.

Dunno if that makes sense.

Andrew

[stricker]

Sooooo, to simplify lemme check if i got it right : what i think you're saying is if you leave the shoulder in the same position as you rotate from bon to tan different muscles are used? Sure that sounds ok.

whole shoulder move fore-and-aft ie towards the opponent with bon sao, and back and down with tan. This helps elongate the opponents arms, makes the tan sao stronger, and gives the bon sao a spiralling drilling motion in towards the opponent. More aggressive so the bon sao is attacking.

Mmm i might have to go back to first principles a bit to figure out why we move the shoulder forwards and backwards but it's to do with how bon and tan come about from the mechanics of the punch. I may also be misunderstanding what i've been taught i think the movement may become smaller over time so it's really just about muscle activation, but i still think it's strange if we do the complete opposite!!!

Do you pull the shoulder back and down at the end of the punch?

[clutchpan]

Chin Koo...this herb $2.00 at any Chinese market...promotes circulation and heals battered muscles...generally for pain associated with overuse. works great for me.

the bong:
each system uses the bong quite different...in Wong Shueng Leung we cultivate our motions from the elbow as do the other systems but perhaps thought of differently... using a tan when the resistance calls for me to go to a bong the line or should i say point of reference i am turning on doesn't cause me to deviate to a arcing round shape to get around my opponents attach...rather using that cohesion (sensitivity) to flow my bong off of...if you use a round shape to ride over the attach it generally causes the shoulder and muscles to come into play neglecting the elbow theory driving the line...not sure if this sounds quite the way it looks...but, one has to be conscious of where his or her elbow is at all times...

best
>C

[Toby]

Hey, thanks for the thread AndrewS. I'm not on here much anymore so I missed it.

If you have a supraspinatis tendinitis/tendinosis, which is what this sounds like ... Bong sao mechanics are almost invariably the culprit, sometimes with an acute injury provoking the inflammatory process.The osteolysis was almost definitely caused by lifting. It's possible/probable that I did have tendinitis of the supraspinatus and yes, as you said, from bong sao (amongst other things i.e. lifting).
... raising the shoulder girdle- converts the supraspinatus from a stabilzer to performing a load-bearing function ...Yeah, I had to re-educate my muscle memory.

... mechanics discussion ...The way you describe it is pretty much the way I do it now. My shoulder position is much better. It was working well, but recently it's even more improved from some xing yi I'm doing.

I've seen this make people come out much slicker than they went into the injury, just 'cos the price of making the mistake becomes so high.It's certainly made me tighten up my form. I'm hoping that it's a blessing in disguise, yeah.

Letting someone 'hang' on your bong, or rapid downward jerks on your bong when you're not properly relaxed can cause or exacerbate this injury.Yep, this is the single worst thing I can do to my shoulder. Occasionally someone will surprise me with this kind of motion and it certainly twinges.

... exercises ...Hey, thanks. Some cool ones in there. Definitely more challenging than the ones I was given for PT. They were:

- consciously contracting the lat without the corresponding pectoral. Lots of reps.

- one-handed "pushups". Leaning against a wall or floor in the start position, then raising and lowering keeping the arm straight and just going through the full ROM of the shoulder.

- hold a non-static weight (like a big jug of water) at full reach and doing lunges. The arm opposite the lunging leg holds the jug and reaches forward to different heights/angles and retracts to different heights/angles when going back to the lunge start position.

All three exercises with the shoulder down. Occasional shrugging and subsequent maximal dropping of the shoulder being exercised to remind the body what the right and wrong position feel like.

I appreciate the thread AndrewS.

[reneritchie]

Awesome thread!

[AndrewS]

Stricker,

caught the PM- since your from LT line, too, I'll be a little less politic about my take on mechanics here. The shoulder is back on bong sao. Watch or ask Leung Ting, or follow his explanation on how to form bong in the form. I've gone through this w/ my sifu (Emin) in depth and this is how he does it too. Mechanically, if you don't hook up using the low zone of the trap and rhomboids w/ bong, you won't be able to be turned by force on your bong (or to move yourself and dump in force from your body- the throwing bong from the dummy). In your sections, in the 1st section material for 7th SG- the jut/chuen- if your shoulder is forward on the bong, the jut will yank your upper body forward, opening you for the punch, and if you are pulled, your balance will be broken forward, and you will be unable to walk in with a kup/kwai jarn. The bong defense and subsequent high man/pak in 3rd section won't work with the shoulder forward either. Take a close look at what you're doing. It sounds like you're either decribing things wrong or doing them wrong. Stand in C2, have someone press on your bong, put the force in the ground without leaning (should be able to take this on the chest), then have them keep their force steady and push on your wrist towards the off side, slowly turning you. You should feel the connection along the upper back between the lower part of the scapula and spine.

Shoulder back and down at the end of the punch- yes, I've been taught that. In some situations I do it, with certain ways of expressing force. There was a short power thread a while back where I went into this mechanic in detail. Search around a bit.

Howard,

thanks- how do you take the Chin Koo?

I think I see what you're saying about the round thing- is this part of Gary's point, line, curve set of distinctions?

Toby,

Xing Yi is good stuff- any particular exercise proving useful? From what I've seen Xing Yi keeps the shoulders down when expressing power (like any fighting art), but goes a bit more forward with them than Wing Chun, partly 'cos they don't stay as square as we like too (though they're still pretty square on).

Those one-hand pushups- Kelso does 'bench shrugs' working the same mechanic, fwiw. The water jug exercise sounds way cool- I bet some 25-30 lb sand bags could be a sweet evolution of that.

BTW- an exercise from Vince Black (Xing Yi guy- there's a thread up on emptyflower.com on these now)- worm crawling. Lay on your back, arms extended and crawl across the floor, solely by grabbing the ground with your shoulder blades, then flip over and do the same thing with your pecs and serratus. Did that one for a few years- definitely helps teach keeping the shoulders down.

I'm glad to have the opportunity to go through this stuff- it lets me focus my thinking a bit, hope some of it helps someone.

Rene,

so chime in, man, got any tidbits?

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

Bong sao can be a very unnatural motion for the arm and shoulder, as I believe AndrewS pointed out quite elaborately (impressed with his knowledge on this);and without meaning to get into the lineage differences thing too much either, I'd like to say the following, and offer it as food for thought for people who have shoulder problems:

1- Don't extend the shoulder (don't lead with it) when using bong sao. Keep both shoulders back and even with each other.

2- Let your elbow be higher than your shoulder when doing bong sao.

3- Extend your arm when doing bong sao so that your wrist is at least 16 inches away from your body (possibly more, depending upon your height).

4- Don't use a "bend" at where your wrist and hand meet...keep it straight and locked - as if there were no wrist joint.

These are all more "natural" motions for the arm and shoulder, I believe, and might help prevent or alleviate the injuries that have been mentioned on this thread.

[Airdrawndagger]

It also seems to be a problem with the miss-use of energy when(for instance) one chi sau's. The constant push/pull energy of chi sau can cause one to lose their basic structure and form. When the basic structure is off and you perform bong sau, one forces the shoulder to absorb extra energy in the wrong areas. Prolonged miss-use of energy will eventually cause injury.

[clutchpan]

10 pills a day 2x...i have been told that it can be taken for long periods of time with no bad effects...i have been taking it for a little over a month


...something that hasn't been adressed yet is what is the purpose of your bong depending on your recieving force¿ depending on what activates the bong and where it going next...sifu will be sure to address such matters in his seminar...

_Howard,

thanks- how do you take the Chin Koo?

I think I see what you're saying about the round thing- is this part of Gary's point, line, curve set of distinctions? _

[stricker]

Andrew - cool i'll have to think about it a little more. I'm struggling a little picturing the drills you mention - i dunno what chuen is? i don't know the first thing about the sg's either but i know most of the sentences, not in depthl but in sequence anyway. I know they have changed a few times over the last few years so we may not be on the same page re 1, 2, 3 etc. First sentence is the 'pull opps arms across, step in palm strike off the tan-bon arm' entry? I assume the sub-sections you mention are off the jut-sao jum-sao platform so there's quite a few of them i think.

Jut on bon - if the bon is pulled i'd probably step in, depending on the pressure, definitely if the torso gets pulled out of shape compensate with feet, hopefully move as a unit. Actually sorry you said that already hence the elbow attack. Hmm

As for the shift and stuff - i can't really do the 'force into the ground' thing very well although i think i understand a few of the basic mechanics it's not something i've concentrated on enough and i think that's starting to show at the moment. On the other hand, i'm pretty happy taking a punch and shifting with bon without getting hit, and maintaining the bon structure and even attacking in with it. Like i said i think we spiral or drill in with it so it's really attacking.

Anyway, i'll play with it. Also we have the bon sao supposedly the elbow one fist height lower than the shoulder as seen from the front, so it's a low bon. This seems to prevent the elbow being attacked (lifted) amongst other things. When we used to use a high bon (eg attacks to the head) we use something more like a pak sao shape with the elbow rolled up, which is v. similar to the bon but a little different. I'm not 100% sure about this, it appears in a sentence but may not actually apply to real life hahaha.

Thanks for the pointer to the other thread - again mad knowledge! I have lots of reading and working out to do. Thanks for the brain food only learn by getting confused!

Ultimatewingchun : cool i can compare point by point.

1 - i do it different my shoulder comes forward, i guess not too much though,
2 - again, elbow not higher than shoulder, although as allways there are probably exceptions
3 - i dunno about 16' or whatever, my thing is to have 135 degrees or basically to have a bon sao that won't collapse it has to keep its shape and structure else get hit or lots of hard work with the muscles to keep the force out.
4 - again, i don't know exactly. Flat hand in tan sao is important helps keep punches out and adds a little control over the incoming arm, but in bon sao i've always just relaxed my hand so it kinda flops about a bit.

This way seems pretty natural to me, but we're all different i guess

[Toby]

Xing Yi is good stuff- any particular exercise proving useful?The body mechanics in general. I've only been doing it for several months and only certain sword forms - not empty hand yet.

[AndrewS]

Toby,

Xing Yi sword? Cool! How big a sword? I love heavier weapons work. My bro has a couple of 4lb gladii and a 7lb hand and a half sword we occasionally break out for our escrima practice. Heavy weapons just bring out mechanics like nothing else, and they feel f*ckin' awesome. Are you doing any two handed weapons work? Does the guy you're learning from do any spear? The Xing Yi spear 'fists' in 'Xing Yi Nei Gong' look like awesome conditioning exercises (like Wing Chun and Baji's long pole).

Stricker,

jut-chuen= jut punch. From the portion of 1st section taught for 7th section, it's bridge on bridge, WT's version of the lop dar drill.


Jut on bon - if the bon is pulled i'd probably step in, depending on the pressure, definitely if the torso gets pulled out of shape compensate with feet, hopefully move as a unit. Actually sorry you said that already hence the elbow attack. Hmm

Yup, that one. Shoulder forward is gonna make stepping in a lot harder. Hence, a drill sometimes done is to alternate the sharp jut/punch (handle with just the bong being springy and in position) and a hard pull in (as a feeder) which should drive a kwai jarn (diagonal elbow) and walk in).


As for the shift and stuff - i can't really do the 'force into the ground' thing very well although i think i understand a few of the basic mechanics it's not something i've concentrated on enough and i think that's starting to show at the moment.

Not to sound like an *sshole, but . . . learn. Connecting up the body so you can use the ground is 'the little idea' in SNT, IMO. This is the core of Wing Chun, without which you have nothing. This is what you need to fight, directly refining it is what distinguishes us from many other things. In escrima it's 'the point'- the place where you are balanced, able to move in any direction, evolve power with any weapon, and put force in the ground (a precursor to balanced, connected, efficient motion, essentially) from any angle. Ideally, you should always be 'on point'. Take this idea of refining use of base, body connection, and use of weight, and chase it- that's a direction to atheletic superiority. Some guys will rant about chi and meridians, some will use weird-*ss inflatable platforms and talk about the TA when they aren't stuffing bills in a g-string- don't get distracted by their flim-flam, chase results.


Anyway, i'll play with it. Also we have the bon sao supposedly the elbow one fist height lower than the shoulder as seen from the front, so it's a low bon. This seems to prevent the elbow being attacked (lifted) amongst other things. When we used to use a high bon (eg attacks to the head) we use something more like a pak sao shape with the elbow rolled up, which is v. similar to the bon but a little different. I'm not 100% sure about this, it appears in a sentence but may not actually apply to real life hahaha.

I've been taught to keep the elbow high on an upper level bong for a number of reasons, but it definitely requires the development of some specific flexibility and musculature. As I understand it, the vertical range of bong sao is described in Chum Kiu- from double low bong to double high man and all points in between. I generally don't use bong vs. punches, but it comes up in the clinch quite often for me, often as a way of redirecting an underhook attempt before transitioning to a head control (bong-fak aka kwan). The higher elbow also gives a nice 'handle' using the elbow as a sort of hook to lock into someone before dropping weight down and through to break their positions (as seen in the entries to 4th, 5th, and 6th sections chi sao, and one entry of the Biu Tze chi sao).

Howard,

I don't want to get into where and when for bong sao. I have my uses for it, but they're mine. Application is really personal, and people take far too much of it as gospel. I may have to try the Chin Koo next time I'm feeling beat up. BTW- you still got my e-mail and number? Gimme a shout if you wanna get into some trouble.

Vic,

thanks for the props- I've thought this stuff through a bunch, then played with it. John Crescione has posted some nice things on this too, as have Andrew Williams, and Robert Chu, back in the day, if memory serves.

Ever noticed that a wrester going to duck under from inside control uses a high inside bong as 'frame' to stick their head through when they level change? Trippy.

On point #3). I see your point, but prefer to describe things in body markers or angles- I think of it as elbow angle of 120-145 degrees or some such, depending on the person, but keeping the angle pretty fixed.

On point #4). This is a lineage thing difference. I've learned to keep the forearm loose with the elbow strong, which diffuses shocks to the forearm and gives a bit more protection to the shoulder 'cos you lose the leverage of a stiff forearm.

ADD,

perhaps you could add something more specific?

Andrew

[Toby]

Xing Yi sword? Cool! How big a sword? I love heavier weapons work ... Heavy weapons just bring out mechanics like nothing else, and they feel f*ckin' awesome. Are you doing any two handed weapons work? Does the guy you're learning from do any spear? The Xing Yi spear 'fists' in 'Xing Yi Nei Gong' look like awesome conditioning exercises (like Wing Chun and Baji's long pole).Well, we just use a wooden katana because they cost $20 at a MA store :D. My teacher says we could be using a cut-down broomstick, or even doing it without a sword - it's all about body mechanics. But yeah, I'd love to get a nice steel sword one day. I've got my eye on a particular custom sword-maker but they're pricey. The sword forms we're doing are two-handed. Spear? Dunno. I haven't seen anyone doing any, but there's a lot I don't see.

[stricker]

Andrew,

AS : jut-chuen= jut punch. From the portion of 1st section taught for 7th section, it's bridge on bridge, WT's version of the lop dar drill.

Cool we call that jut-sao jum-sao. We have quite a few bits of sentence that start and finish back in it. Again i don't know about the grade syllabus what goes where and my numerics eg 7th might be off or different.

AS : Yup, that one. Shoulder forward is gonna make stepping in a lot harder. Hence, a drill sometimes done is to alternate the sharp jut/punch (handle with just the bong being springy and in position) and a hard pull in (as a feeder) which should drive a kwai jarn (diagonal elbow) and walk in).

Yeah i don't think i've really drilled that, but i get the idea, and it doesn't seem too much of a problem other than how frkin difficult everything always is haha.

AS : Not to sound like an *sshole, but . . . learn. Connecting up the body so you can use the ground is 'the little idea' in SNT, IMO. This is the core of Wing Chun, without which you have nothing. This is what you need to fight, directly refining it is what distinguishes us from many other things. In escrima it's 'the point'- the place where you are balanced, able to move in any direction, evolve power with any weapon, and put force in the ground (a precursor to balanced, connected, efficient motion, essentially) from any angle. Ideally, you should always be 'on point'. Take this idea of refining use of base, body connection, and use of weight, and chase it- that's a direction to atheletic superiority. Some guys will rant about chi and meridians, some will use weird-*ss inflatable platforms and talk about the TA when they aren't stuffing bills in a g-string- don't get distracted by their flim-flam, chase results.

Hey, thats cool, a**hole! :D Nah seriously i've done some work on it getting a partner to push on lan sao learning to absorb it, i've got the basic idea, like i said i can't do it very well. But, a little. I get the "on point" idea it's a nice term, that's pretty much what i think the footwork is all about, i think of it as maintaining my personal integrity in terms of my balance, structure regardless of what the other guy is doing to me, i make sure that I am in a position to do whatever. This stuff is what i really think about when i'm doing chi sao, i try to think about balance footwork and posture 80% and what my arms are doing 20%. This is something i wanna step up - but i have limited access to partners, so i'm gonna get a heavy bag and practice with that. Generating power and absorbing incoming are two sides of the same coin no? Also - i've been trying to use the idea of "ground path" in SNT and CK - is this what you're talking about? How did you learn it? And hey, i never get distracted by the flim-flammery!!! TA??

AS : I've been taught to keep the elbow high on an upper level bong for a number of reasons, but it definitely requires the development of some specific flexibility and musculature. As I understand it, the vertical range of bong sao is described in Chum Kiu- from double low bong to double high man and all points in between. I generally don't use bong vs. punches, but it comes up in the clinch quite often for me, often as a way of redirecting an underhook attempt before transitioning to a head control (bong-fak aka kwan). The higher elbow also gives a nice 'handle' using the elbow as a sort of hook to lock into someone before dropping weight down and through to break their positions (as seen in the entries to 4th, 5th, and 6th sections chi sao, and one entry of the Biu Tze chi sao).

I know exactly the bit you're talking about and that makes sense. My understanding is that the height the bon is actually used at will vary with the height of your opponent, but relative to self - elbow lower than shoulder. I was pretty dubious about this when it first came in, but now it feels loads better. Reminds me of Einstiens saying about simplicity : the bon elbow should be as low as possible, but not too low. Kindof strange for an "elbow high" shape.

I think my kwan sao movement is more like bon to wu, although i use the bon to fak a lot, hopefully hook the outside of my elbow inside the other guys elbow give it a downwards jerk to shock and off balance before going for the strike. Is that what you mean by the high elbow handle to lock in and weight drop? Also, the entry i know to 4th etc is like a kao sao off the fook to split the arms open, then step in with a double punch. Other guy does double bon. Then it's goes into a couple of different variations of kao sao + bon or tan + bon with shifts etc. 5th is similar, can't remember 6. So, maybe they're different - we've had them change a few times anyway.

I'll try out that use of bon vs underhook next mma session if i get the chance. I'm pretty new to it, but i've been using lots of elbow low jum sao, controlling the midpoint of the forearm, huen saos to go in to out, and fook saos already.

Cheers for the conversation andrew, and the other hints and those old posts and stuff!

Andrew, Vic (ultimatewingchun?),

AS : Ever noticed that a wrester going to duck under from inside control uses a high inside bong as 'frame' to stick their head through when they level change? Trippy.

Hahaha that was the first ever app i was taught from pummelling drill at mma! Sure, ducking under and going for a takedown was a bit different to wing chun, but my teacher even said if you shock the other guys arm they'll go all stiff making it easier - exactly what we do all the time in wing chun!

[AndrewS]

Toby,

to paraphrase Blue Oyster Cult- 'Don't fear the rebar'. A little extra weight does some cool things to body mechanics.

Stricker,

The ground use stuff- there are a number of different takes on this- Robert Chu and Mike Sigman have both written about this extensively, though they seem to use different mechanics. My take is that learning that sort of body connection requires a partner or teacher who guides you through it. Most of what I learned was through trial and error, going down blind alleys, and coming up with my own training methods along the way with liberal theft from all available sources. I figure what took me 7-8 years of ridiculous amounts of work to achieve (I probably averaged >20hrs/wk training, sometimes training more than I slept in a week), I could easily lead someone through in 2-3 years with 6 hrs a week partner work and 3-4 hrs a week of S&C. Bottom line- 'it has to be shown'.

TA- transversus abdominus- the pilates folks, Paul Chek, and others make a big deal of this, and, control over it is probably part of dan tien development, and modern 'functional' or 'stability' training is getting as cultish and weird about it as people do about the dan tien (while also getting giggly about the pelvic floor or 'grain path', and spacing the quadratus lumborum aka 'ming men'.


I think my kwan sao movement is more like bon to wu

Kwan's an idea, not a motion. Changing behind a fixed point.


although i use the bon to fak a lot, hopefully hook the outside of my elbow inside the other guys elbow give it a downwards jerk to shock and off balance before going for the strike.

This is part of the BT entry, though there are some very interesting subtleties in that entry, compared with simple folding.


Is that what you mean by the high elbow handle to lock in and weight drop? Also, the entry i know to 4th etc is like a kao sao off the fook to split the arms open, then step in with a double punch.

Kao off the fook opens, bong becomes a jamming lan- basically, the bong, with a nice high elbow, hooks into the arm on it, using its own elbow and static friction to lock into the other guy's structure, while cutting in at a angle down and across to previous incoming power, dropping your own weight through your elbow and through the other person's center of gravity, while moving in while rotating, to stretch them down and forward very briefly so you can finish your step firing the punch through them while transitioning to gum control, then going to double punches. The initial positions are then varied to double inside and double outside in 5th and 6th sections.


5th is similar, can't remember 6. So, maybe they're different - we've had them change a few times anyway.

5th's pretty different actually. To me, 5th is about developing power from the stance and transitional timing.

I try to extract a few core ideas from each section, and then work them until they're ingrained. That way if the choreography changes, so what. I got the meat.


Later,

Andrew

[stricker]

Andrew : The ground use stuff- there are a number of different takes on this- Robert Chu and Mike Sigman have both written about this extensively, though they seem to use different mechanics. My take is that learning that sort of body connection requires a partner or teacher who guides you through it. Most of what I learned was through trial and error, going down blind alleys, and coming up with my own training methods along the way with liberal theft from all available sources. I figure what took me 7-8 years of ridiculous amounts of work to achieve (I probably averaged >20hrs/wk training, sometimes training more than I slept in a week), I could easily lead someone through in 2-3 years with 6 hrs a week partner work and 3-4 hrs a week of S&C. Bottom line- 'it has to be shown'.

Problem is i have limited (zero) access to training partners outside class, and that's only like 3-4 hours a week. We have spent some time working on it, but there's sooo much to cover without spending a couple of years just working on that one skill without neglecting other work. Like i say it's something i'm always thinking about when we're doing chi sao or lat sao or whatever. I agree it has to be shown, to me it's like finding a certain feeling, i know when i lose it, but then i can't always refind it, or maintain it for long. Still bouncing ideas around is really helpful. How does s&c help with learning this mechanic???

Andrew : TA- transversus abdominus- the pilates folks, Paul Chek, and others make a big deal of this, and, control over it is probably part of dan tien development, and modern 'functional' or 'stability' training is getting as cultish and weird about it as people do about the dan tien (while also getting giggly about the pelvic floor or 'grain path', and spacing the quadratus lumborum aka 'ming men'.

Thanks. What i understand is getting really good involves a lot of learning to control certain specific muscles. i'm not too hot on the latin names something i'm picking up bit by bit. I've heard some hype about core strength from a few people. There's a guy who teaches groundfighting at mma sometimes who has us do all these plank exercises "for a strong core" but i'm pretty skeptical. It's wierd i get through them no prob, but sit ups kill me.

Andrew : Kwan's an idea, not a motion. Changing behind a fixed point.

Heheh yeah you're right i shoulda known better! I've been shown a couple of different ways of doing the kwan in snt over the years indeed i look at the commonalities and differences and think for myself about it. Going through wu with every motion is something i'm working on at the mo, so that's how i'm doing kwan right now. Or, should i say making the idea of wu more explicit through deliberate physical manifestation!

Andrew : This is part of the BT entry, though there are some very interesting subtleties in that entry, compared with simple folding.

Biu tze entry? do you mean chi sao sentence or entry in fighting (or both before you say it)?. I don't know too much about biu tze, know the form sequence and a little about some of the concepts, but only just touched on it briefly. Also, I know there's a simplistic bon to fold to neck strike fak sao that's taught sometimes, but the way i do fak sao it's not swinging outwards (backwards) more shooting forwards (sideways). The double fak sao in the form has loads going on in it. So, i wouldn't do a simple folding bon because that's compromising the bon sao structure, yeah kwan to fak feels loads better, feels more structural and solid plus you really control the other guy loads more.

Andrew : Kao off the fook opens, bong becomes a jamming lan- basically, the bong, with a nice high elbow, hooks into the arm on it, using its own elbow and static friction to lock into the other guy's structure, while cutting in at a angle down and across to previous incoming power, dropping your own weight through your elbow and through the other person's center of gravity, while moving in while rotating, to stretch them down and forward very briefly so you can finish your step firing the punch through them while transitioning to gum control, then going to double punches. The initial positions are then varied to double inside and double outside in 5th and 6th sections.

Ok well i've seen 2 versions of it (neither for very long) so i'm not 100% clear myself. Hmmm i've just been standing waving my arms in the air trying to work that out exactly, hard without another pair of trained arms! Very similar though. I've been through the 7 chum kiu sentences either just as drills or as a whole but they've changed and again time constraints so we tend to move about quite a lot, but i'm not really fussed about the sentences, they're not that big a deal imo. Exactly what you said, its the key ideas that are important. Anyway, its cool we're on roughly the same page about them, helps with comms! Also, we've done the thing of switching between sentences, that can be a whole lotta confusing fun!

Andrew : 5th's pretty different actually. To me, 5th is about developing power from the stance and transitional timing.

Cool, i was thinking in terms of the surface eg the entry inside outside etc not the deeper ideas. I've not really reached that level yet, but i'll bear those ideas is mind next time we do them.

Andrew : I try to extract a few core ideas from each section, and then work them until they're ingrained. That way if the choreography changes, so what. I got the meat.

EXACTLY!!! I'd reached that conclusion a long time ago about both the forms and sentences, i always think "what is this really trying to tell me??" A lot of the variations seem to be just a different emphasis on different ideas, others seem more political. It's tricky, but good practice for staying open minded but critical. It's also quite a long process "filling in" the surface sequence of forms and chi sao with understanding and depth. I struggle forcing it, it's more like things slowly changing or a-ha every once in a while!

Again thanks for the feedback andrew, it's good having some different input from someone who's been there done that.

[AndrewS]

Good conversation, all that's missing is a few beers and a bottle of Wild Turkey. . .

Stricker writes:


Problem is i have limited (zero) access to training partners outside class, and that's only like 3-4 hours a week. We have spent some time working on it, but there's sooo much to cover without spending a couple of years just working on that one skill without neglecting other work. Like i say it's something i'm always thinking about when we're doing chi sao or lat sao or whatever. I agree it has to be shown, to me it's like finding a certain feeling, i know when i lose it, but then i can't always refind it, or maintain it for long. Still bouncing ideas around is really helpful. How does s&c help with learning this mechanic???

Keep your mind on it, try to keep the feeling once you've got it- by this I mean if it feels like it flows right, rep it for another minute or two, no more, no less- long enough to load from short term to long term memory, not long enough for performance to degrade. Practice frequence and quality are probably more important to developing skill than volume (500 reps in an hour are inferior to 25 sets of 20 over a day or two). Don't be afraid to leave something while it still feels good- if you keep at it you sometimes can fatigue and degrade your groove. - Some stuff I think is important.

As for S&C- done right, your S&C work should be developing exactly the stuff you fight with- your mechanics. Once you understand this, one will develop the other. To wit- the shoulder girdle thing- work up to push pressing or jerking 10-20% bodyweight overhead one handed- your shoulder girdle and hip use should be close to that of your punch.


Thanks. What i understand is getting really good involves a lot of learning to control certain specific muscles. i'm not too hot on the latin names something i'm picking up bit by bit. I've heard some hype about core strength from a few people. There's a guy who teaches groundfighting at mma sometimes who has us do all these plank exercises "for a strong core" but i'm pretty skeptical. It's wierd i get through them no prob, but sit ups kill me.

My si-sok's oly coach (national level lifter, has won his class as I understand it) does no stability training- just the oly lifts and assist work. He was laughing at the guys doing body weight squats on a swiss ball (a core exercise) at Gold's in Venice, walked over, put the ball in a power rack, put his weight on the bar (135 and some change), got up on the ball, and started doing reps, weighted, stepped down off the bar, said 'that's balance' and walked away. Move heavy weight, especially fast, and you get a strong 'core'. That being said, there are many good ways to develop yourself.

A hint- overhead squats may be the best 'core' exercise I know.


Biu tze entry? do you mean chi sao sentence or entry in fighting (or both before you say it)?. I don't know too much about biu tze, know the form sequence and a little about some of the concepts, but only just touched on it briefly. Also, I know there's a simplistic bon to fold to neck strike fak sao that's taught sometimes, but the way i do fak sao it's not swinging outwards (backwards) more shooting forwards (sideways). The double fak sao in the form has loads going on in it. So, i wouldn't do a simple folding bon because that's compromising the bon sao structure, yeah kwan to fak feels loads better, feels more structural and solid plus you really control the other guy loads more.

The BT entry is more complicated than a simple fold. I'm not working it yet, but my main training partner is, and it suits his motion very well. As he does it, it doesn't compromise structure and feels alternately slippery and sharp. As with anything, I suspect the footwork as the culprit first.


Ok well i've seen 2 versions of it (neither for very long) so i'm not 100% clear myself. Hmmm i've just been standing waving my arms in the air trying to work that out exactly, hard without another pair of trained arms! Very similar though. I've been through the 7 chum kiu sentences either just as drills or as a whole but they've changed and again time constraints so we tend to move about quite a lot, but i'm not really fussed about the sentences, they're not that big a deal imo. Exactly what you said, its the key ideas that are important. Anyway, its cool we're on roughly the same page about them, helps with comms! Also, we've done the thing of switching between sentences, that can be a whole lotta confusing fun!


You gotta free it up, otherwise you wind up German down to your starched underwear. That being said, take a piece and do it to death for a few months, then find it elsewhere. My hobby is taking each section and finding apps I can spar at range, in a thai clinch, and in a greco-clinch, starting with fook, jum, jut, tan, bong- the basic poon sao. Amazing how much better it all gets when you do it this way.


A lot of the variations seem to be just a different emphasis on different ideas, others seem more political. It's tricky, but good practice for staying open minded but critical.


Exactly. It helps to have a good peer group (who fight), and seniors who you trust and aren't messing with your head. If you get a chance to train with Sifu Emin- do it- he can turn a lot of lights on, and if you can catch Jannis Simonedes (bounces from Mannheim to Thessaloniki, to Amsterdam) he can show you enough in a few days to keep you going for a year.

Later,

Andrew

[stricker]

Good conversation, all that's missing is a few beers and a bottle of Wild Turkey. . .Make mine a root beer... i grew up around sXe'rs, but hey i'd bring some real beers for ya, i know you don't get them over there :D


Keep your mind on it, try to keep the feeling once you've got it- by this I mean if it feels like it flows right, rep it for another minute or two, no more, no less- long enough to load from short term to long term memory, not long enough for performance to degrade. Practice frequence and quality are probably more important to developing skill than volume (500 reps in an hour are inferior to 25 sets of 20 over a day or two). Don't be afraid to leave something while it still feels good- if you keep at it you sometimes can fatigue and degrade your groove. - Some stuff I think is important.I know exactly what you're talking about from learning other skills in the past, a slightly lesser extent with wing chun. Definitely for any skill there seems to be some sort of pattern with the reps if you do something too many times it goes to sht don't leave it on a bad note! I think part of the way my teacher teaches is to move on fairly swiftly after we've "got" something, or to move back if we're not getting it at all. Cheers for the pointers tho!


As for S&C- done right, your S&C work should be developing exactly the stuff you fight with- your mechanics. Once you understand this, one will develop the other. To wit- the shoulder girdle thing- work up to push pressing or jerking 10-20% bodyweight overhead one handed- your shoulder girdle and hip use should be close to that of your punch.Sure i that makes sense, hence the question. I thought lifting would be nothing like the punch, i'll have to check out the push press and jerk.


My si-sok's oly coach (national level lifter, has won his class as I understand it) does no stability training- just the oly lifts and assist work. He was laughing at the guys doing body weight squats on a swiss ball (a core exercise) at Gold's in Venice, walked over, put the ball in a power rack, put his weight on the bar (135 and some change), got up on the ball, and started doing reps, weighted, stepped down off the bar, said 'that's balance' and walked away. Move heavy weight, especially fast, and you get a strong 'core'. That being said, there are many good ways to develop yourself.

A hint- overhead squats may be the best 'core' exercise I know.I'm skeptical about pretty much everything - wouldn't the added weight make the balancing easier? I get the point either way, dude sounds like a bad*ss. my main uneducated criticism of the plank stuff is that it's just static contraction, but what the heck i do it anyway as part of the class.


The BT entry is more complicated than a simple fold. I'm not working it yet, but my main training partner is, and it suits his motion very well. As he does it, it doesn't compromise structure and feels alternately slippery and sharp. As with anything, I suspect the footwork as the culprit first.Ah no i meant the simple fold was something else, i know that's not BT. The simple fold is just doing the bon to fak in an oversimplified way i've seen around, and don't like. What i know of BT would be totally different, so thats cool.


You gotta free it up, otherwise you wind up German down to your starched underwear. That being said, take a piece and do it to death for a few months, then find it elsewhere. My hobby is taking each section and finding apps I can spar at range, in a thai clinch, and in a greco-clinch, starting with fook, jum, jut, tan, bong- the basic poon sao. Amazing how much better it all gets when you do it this way.Let's not get started on Germans and their starchy underwear... that way of learning chi sao has been pretty much thrown out the window. Learning dance steps been there done that time to learn some real chi sao. Sounds like you've got a really good hobby going on there, something i need to do in the future, work out how to really bring wing chun into the clinch stuff in mma.


Exactly. It helps to have a good peer group (who fight), and seniors who you trust and aren't messing with your head. If you get a chance to train with Sifu Emin- do it- he can turn a lot of lights on, and if you can catch Jannis Simonedes (bounces from Mannheim to Thessaloniki, to Amsterdam) he can show you enough in a few days to keep you going for a year.Unfortunately my peer group aren't really fighting stuff, but such is life. My main classmate is really good, he's got previous ma experience and his wing chun is a lot crisper and more 'correct' than mine, but we seem pretty level when it comes to free chi sao and beyond. My teacher is definitely way way fighting oriented, and i've absolutely 100% trust there, he hates german starch.

cheers!

[Taff]

This is a very interesting thread, and one that is relevant to my situation.

Recently, I've been told (after MRI and arthrogram) that I have some laxity in the anterior capsular of my shoulder joint. Or something like that. I'm not too good with these medical terms.

It means that my bong sao has always been vulnerable to subluxations, because I always formed it with the shoulder lifted and pushed forward a bit. I was not able to relax the shoulder and keep it back while doing the bong sao.

I've been given exercises to improve the strength of the shoulder. Specifically, using rubber tubing. From my arm being at my side, I have to life it to the side and to the front. Also, with my elbow at my side and my forearm out in front parallel to the floor, I have to rotate the forearm from into my body and then out to the side, keeping the elbow still.
All performed with the shoulder sitting back.

I'm also trying to get myself into the habit of relaxing my shoulder into the "back" position. Up until now, when relaxed, it has hunched forward, I guess because of the weakness in the front of my shoulder.

If I perform the exercises religiously (and I will), will I ever be able to form a proper bong sao on my right hand side?

Also, is there anything I can take to help. I've heard that Glucosamine/Chrodroitin/MSM could be helpful.

Cheers

[AndrewS]

Taff,

glucosamine/chondroitin may help, but the key is fixing your mistake- learn to keep your shoulders down and your shoulder girdle engaged. Doing pulls with a partner can help this, as can rows, shrugs, and pullups.

Andrew

[schwarzdragon]

Thanks for the advice on the bong sao. I've noticed pain and tingling in my right arm and shoulder after working out, especially with chi sao. The kung fu master that I worked with in Indonesia last summer said that this is caused from being too tense during practice. I guess that I've never really learned to sink the shoulders during chi sao. Are there any exercises to relax the muscles before training that I can use?