full contact

[redofthenorth]

Well I know that we all have diferent views on the proper sparing technique and stratagey of how to teach students. I simply do not let my students wear pads nor do I let them go full bore we spar at full contact (no pads and almost no rules) this is so that sparing can be spontaniuse and the student or students know how to hit and to feel pain and live through it . Lets face it I would rather know how a full on punch feels before I get in a fight on the street so that I wouldent panic and my students will not.

I was just wonduring other peoples ideas on sparing and or how you teach your students. The only rules for my student are .

1. No full contact to the face.
2. No eye Gouges.
3.No boxing the easr
4.No breacking of the limbs or joins such as fingers .

Even with these rules there are enjurys but far less than one might thank In the 10 years of teaching I have seen my fare share of bruises and sprains but onlt 2 broken arms and several fingers.

[MasterKiller]

Sorry, but I believe there is a better, safer way to train.

You can still get rocked with gloves and headgear.

[Starchaser107]

I agree with MK sparring gear helps fighters train more techniques for a longer time and with less injury. Body conditioning can be done outside of sparring in any case.

[Ray Pina]

Well, 1st I think its misleading to imply that your guys are fighting full contact with little to no rules but then slip in no full contact to the face ..... THAT is the rule that makes all the difference in the world if you want them to know what it's like to be in a real fight.

But honestly, we do no sparring in my master's school .... at least when he's watching, which is pretty much all the time. We used to be able to sneak in 15 minutes here or there before class before we moved locations.

This used to bother me and had me questioning if I should stay or not at one point ..... but he was right.

You need to drill a lot. And we drill with boxing gloves and full, 100% punching. First you aim for the guys shield to test its power. When he gets better he puts head gear on and you go for the head. Then the gear can come off. And when you feel good about thing, no gear.

At this point, I feel I'm getting the flavor of our defense and offense. Now, 90% of my time is on ability exdercises. How to stretch the muslce to make it longer and looser. How to connect all the body joints and tissue in between to deliver power.

It sounds funny and I would normally run from this type of thing. But it worked for me and I'm glad I stuck with it. The fact that the techique impressed me and that my teacher, who is in his mid-60s and smaller than me, can beat my ass also kept me around.

In the end, I guess each school, method will find its own way.

Now, I wouldn't want to spar my classmates. I'd rather go out to play.

[SevenStar]

Well I know that we all have diferent views on the proper sparing technique and stratagey of how to teach students. I simply do not let my students wear pads nor do I let them go full bore we spar at full contact (no pads and almost no rules) this is so that sparing can be spontaniuse and the student or students know how to hit and to feel pain and live through it . Lets face it I would rather know how a full on punch feels before I get in a fight on the street so that I wouldent panic and my students will not.

I was just wonduring other peoples ideas on sparing and or how you teach your students. The only rules for my student are .

1. No full contact to the face.
2. No eye Gouges.
3.No boxing the easr
4.No breacking of the limbs or joins such as fingers .

Even with these rules there are enjurys but far less than one might thank In the 10 years of teaching I have seen my fare share of bruises and sprains but onlt 2 broken arms and several fingers.

IMO, if it's not full contact to the face, it's not full contact. that said, I am a big believer in gear. At the very least, everyone needs gloves and a mouthpiece. Headgear is a good thing also. Unless you guys are fighting professionally, you have no need to risk head trauma. even with gloves and gear, full contact - REALLY going full contact - still hurts plenty. If you want to retain the use of fingers for grabbing, wear MMA gloves. they allow hand dexterity and have less padding.

Also, according to your rules, throat strikes are allowed...

[redofthenorth]

well when I said that there was full contact but holding back that is full contact traning to me as far as class goes . Witch one of you knows what it is like to break your hand on the jaw of a classmate and be able to keep fighting? gloves and head gear do not always protect you and in my expirence most not all mind you but most people trained in pads when confronted punch like they are still wearing the pads for example. I have spared many different styles . A Kenpo master sparred me at my Sifu"s school when he dilevered a punch it would consistantly be out of reach by one to 2 inches...why? He openy addmited that it was from wearing and traning with pads. And yes Throught strikes are allowed only when A sifu is in the school...Why? because myself and all my master students aka sifu's are trained to relive the choking muscles and sweling. Also my wife is a paramedic and attends all classes if it gets to harryAnd when I say that there are pulled punches to the head they are still hard enought for some students to have blody lipds , teeth knoked out and broken noses. We dont do this to prove phisycal strength actully most of my students are average joees who want to know how to defend themselves and family. when I said we dont jit full to the head What I should have said is that we dont use the Yi quan Or shing yi strike at full projection to the head.


Regardless I was wonduring other ideas for sparing and pads after all it would increase my ability to help as many people as possible who dont want to learn in such a manner. so I thank you all for your sigestions and ideas.

[SevenStar]

The point is not to provide full protection, but to provide some level of protection. As for the punch stopping a few inches short, I have never had or seen that happen. I've never broken my hand on anyone's jaw either, bare fisted or otherwise.

However, I think you answered your own question. for people who don't want to spar in the manner you described, let them wear pads. Also, how do you introduce them to sparring?

[redofthenorth]

Thank you for the time sevenstar.....well we intraduce them by having a sifu spar them first so we can bring them in at 30% or so and then increase it as the confodince and skill of the student progresses. Usually in the classes they are sparing 90% of real full fighting within 2 months or so. there are the natural stragalers at 6 months or so. And the mising and coming up short happend to me once but that was enough to scare me for peoples safty...mainly my students. anyway like I said thank you for your time and insight. Lets keep this going if you have more.

[crazylegs]

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents into the conversation.

The original poster is my sifu, so I am obviously a bit biased towards his teaching methods seeing as how I've stuck with him for almost 3 years now. Here's how I feel about the no pads vs padded sparring.

I started out a few years ago into the martial art world with Tae Kwon Do. As you all know, you wear pads out the wazoo, but I still thought that some of the kicks were pretty powerful, and I definitely had the wind knocked out of me more than once. There was definitely stiffness, and my arms and legs were just as sore as they are today after a sparring session.

However, there is a huge difference between sparring with and without pads beyond the obvious. It's not the bare fisted punches or the kicks that are necessarily all that different. Granted, it feels a hecuva lot more painful without any gear on, but the overall effect is actually quite similar. The major difference is in the little things. The shin to shin hits... the little sacred sword hand jabs... the rake of nails across the neck... These are the pains that you just don't feel with gear on. Simply put, they are too subtle. But believe me, they can hurt like a sonofa*****, and I would absolutely hate to feel that kind of pain for the first time in an alleyway defending my life.

As it is, my first time sparring without gear saw me drop to my knees at least a half dozen times trying to either rub the pain out of my shin or trying to catch my breath. Now, after a few years, I barely notice them. Granted, there are still kicks that nail my sternum that send my breath into orbit, and I don't think that's something you can EVER truly get used to, but the little things that normally would send someone to the ground don't phase me anymore. Or, at the very least, they don't register on my face or in my body movements which can make all the difference in a fight.

So I do see the benefits of sparring with pads on. And I even see the benefits of at least sparring with headgear and a mouthpiece (there is a student in our class who's a businessman and wears a mouthguard so he doesn't hurt his image), but for me, it's been extremely beneficial sparring with no gear. I have a lot more confidence knowing that I can handle pretty much any pain someone can dish out to me on the streets and still come out even-keeled. Pads made me feel like I was in a sport, not learning how to defend myself and loved ones to the death if need be. Maybe it's because I've played hockey all my life, but I just associate pads with sport. They give you a false confidence because you FEEL like nothing will hurt. On the same token, I've played rugby for many years, and because you can wear NO equipment (not even a cup), I've learned that efficiency and accuracy are bred from realizing you are vulnerable.

In short, I honestly feel that you learn a lot more about defeding yourself by sparring with no pads, and better prepare yourself for fighting in the real world. Pads can be used as a tool (i.e. to practice sparring or perhaps to better develop certain kicks/punches), but I just don't think padded sparring truly prepares you for the pain of real fighting, especially the little strikes that are just too subtle to be accurately done with pads on.

Okay... I guess that's more like 4 cents... but it's how I feel on the matter.

[Chief Fox]

Just my opinon here but if your students are breaking each other's noses and knocking each other's teeth out, accidentally or otherwise, then obviously they don't have enough control to be doing the kind of sparring that you have them do. Maybe you should have them work their way up to the kind of sparring that you describe.

A thought on gloves. We don't use them at my school, you can't grab.

[redofthenorth]

Thank you all for your 2 cents and 4 cents in some cases. I am really enjoying all that evereyone has to say. On the last post someone said that they dont use gloves in the school because you cannot grip. However I have used pads fo full contact weapons ( Oak and live steal) I thank you should try the Cebtury bag Gloves plenty of protection and you have cut out fingers to grab. And as for the comint on my students working there way up read my post higher where they do start of low and work there way up. Also remember sparing and fighting at our school is spontaniuse and just like on the street you cant tell the other fighter to slow down or take it easy. The pain a side effect and something you have to live through.

Let me ask you all this...My style is Northern Shaolin so 1000 Years ago did they wear pads during sparing? Did thay not hit you with a bamboo cane when you did your form wrong? That was an ok amount of pain it is the same at my school. The break in tradition was the invintion of pads.

[Chief Fox]

Let me ask you all this...My style is Northern Shaolin so 1000 Years ago did they wear pads during sparing? Did thay not hit you with a bamboo cane when you did your form wrong? That was an ok amount of pain it is the same at my school. The break in tradition was the invintion of pads.

Another break in tradition is that your students have lives, jobs and families outside of your kung fu school. And if they are injured they may not be able to participate in these other parts of their life.

[Akhilleus]

Let me ask you all this...My style is Northern Shaolin so 1000 Years ago did they wear pads during sparing? Did thay not hit you with a bamboo cane when you did your form wrong?

I'm sorry I wasn't there...I don't know...

[lkfmdc]

1000 years ago we didn't have electricity so we sat in the dark

1000 years ago we didn't have in door plumbing and we wipped our butts with leaves

1000 years ago, all of our teeth fell out by the time we were 30, then we died a year later

oh, the glorious past, let's live in it!!!!!!

Threads like this depress me..... :(

[SevenStar]

However, there is a huge difference between sparring with and without pads beyond the obvious. It's not the bare fisted punches or the kicks that are necessarily all that different. Granted, it feels a hecuva lot more painful without any gear on, but the overall effect is actually quite similar. The major difference is in the little things. The shin to shin hits... the little sacred sword hand jabs... the rake of nails across the neck... These are the pains that you just don't feel with gear on. Simply put, they are too subtle. But believe me, they can hurt like a sonofa*****, and I would absolutely hate to feel that kind of pain for the first time in an alleyway defending my life.

actually ALL of those things are present when wearing pads, when they are of a thin variety.

1. notice I made no mention of shin pads. i said at least gloves and a mouthguard.
2. have you ever worn the thin cloth shin guards and collided shin to shin? It still hurts if your shins aren't conditioned to it. we're a thai boxing class, so we clash shins all the time.
3. As I stated in a previous post, if you want to use spear hands, wear MMA gloves. They have less padding and allow greater usage of the hand.



As it is, my first time sparring without gear saw me drop to my knees at least a half dozen times trying to either rub the pain out of my shin or trying to catch my breath.

that's not because you wore pads. It's because you made no other outside effort to condition your shins. You are at fault for that one.



So I do see the benefits of sparring with pads on. And I even see the benefits of at least sparring with headgear and a mouthpiece (there is a student in our class who's a businessman and wears a mouthguard so he doesn't hurt his image), but for me, it's been extremely beneficial sparring with no gear. I have a lot more confidence knowing that I can handle pretty much any pain someone can dish out to me on the streets and still come out even-keeled.

To risk possibly irreversible head trauma over a possibility that most of you will never even encounter is not wise, IMO.



Pads made me feel like I was in a sport, not learning how to defend myself and loved ones to the death if need be. Maybe it's because I've played hockey all my life, but I just associate pads with sport. They give you a false confidence because you FEEL like nothing will hurt. On the same token, I've played rugby for many years, and because you can wear NO equipment (not even a cup), I've learned that efficiency and accuracy are bred from realizing you are vulnerable.

here's an experiment - go to a local boxing or thai boxing gym. Ask to spar with amateur fighters - they are required to wear headgear in matches. spar all out, balls to the wall with them. Then, determine whether or not the headgear made you feel like you couldn't get hurt. Wearing padding does not give you a feeling of invulnerability - lack of contact does. There is a difference. Look at all of the injuries that happen in American football - I highly doubt they walk around with a feeling of invulnerability.

[MasterKiller]

Let me ask you all this...My style is Northern Shaolin so 1000 Years ago did they wear pads during sparing? Did thay not hit you with a bamboo cane when you did your form wrong? That was an ok amount of pain it is the same at my school. The break in tradition was the invintion of pads.

Are you guys Shou Shou, by chance?

[redofthenorth]

Well I am glad you thank tha mui tai have all the answers ....the truth is none of us have all the answers there is only so much to do with fist and foot. On the other hand I have developed Iron leg from teaching the way I do ( No Pads ) I have sparred many Muy tai combatants and have had them limp away not from pain mind you but from either shin splints or fractures from hiting my leg. Yes I have no feeling physicaly in my shins. this is good and bad of corse but I to have it. I also have whent to other schools and spared and have done the pad thang . Sorry to burst the beubble but the amatures and the teachers at the local schools did not know how to handle the full strikes. However this has allowed me to gain some trusted student and freinds out of the school.



one thang has definatly not changed over the last 1000 years we are still all open to have our own openion and if posts like this bore you why did you respond and post back?


However thank you for the suggestion of going to the muy tai school I apreciate it. I will let you have at least one ego stroke and that it muy tai spars harder than most.... :D

[crazylegs]

Actually, having played both rugby and football, and known many footballers during my days (that's American Football, of course), the pads DEFINITELY make the players feel invulnerable. If anything, they not only feel but are taught to hit the other player as hard as humanly possible so that the player getting tackled actually feels it through their pads. It's one of the reasons there are so many injuries in football. Because of ego, not because of padding. They feel like they have to CREAM the other guy so they feel it. Why? Because they are wearing pads and feel like they have a point to make. Rugby, on the other, has no pads. And strangely, there are quite literally 1/3 as many injuries, professional rugby players outlast football players by a good decade, and tackles are done for accuracy and efficiency, not pain. Why? Because you aren't wearing pads, so retaliation is one of the many concerns. If I hit someone hard over the head in football, they wouldn't even flinch. It's actually expected because of the helmet. However, if you tried it in rugby, the retaliation would be swift and hard.

And I really do see where you are coming from with the headgear and mouthguard. I think that they could be required wear and sparring wouldn't suffer too much. Personally, I prefer not to wear them. I would rather know I can take a knock to my noggin' like I would get in the "real" world. But to each his own.

As for not conditioning my shins outside of class... That's not my fault at all. Our style is not about bashing shins. It's not even about making leg to leg contact. It does happen in sparring, but not because it is "supposed" to. If anything, the pain of banging shins has made me learn other means of stopping a kick without risk of coming home with bruises the size of grapefruits on the front of my legs. We're not a leg bashing style (other than knee breaks and sweeps, of course), so I have no need to "condition" my shins by banging them against something for a few hours to desensitize them. Not saying that it is a bad practice, just not needed for my style.

As for the 1,000's of years have passed so let's throw out tradition argument... Your examples of what has changed in the last 1,000 years is completely relative. Saying that electricity has made our lives better is completely opinion. There are plenty of people throughout the world that live complete and full lives with never turning on a single lamp. Just because it has become a societal norm does not make it better than a 1,000 years ago. Same goes for indoor plumbing. I have gone camping plenty of times where you had to dig your own toilet. You know what? I enjoyed doing it. Sounds disgusting by today's standards, but there's something about making your own way with just your hands and a shovel that makes you feel more in tune with things. As for teeth... well... you got me there. I definitely prefer to keep mine. So just because something has changed in the last 1,000 years, does not necessarily make it better. Nor does unchanging tradition make things worse. Some traditions have absolutely needed to change (the feminine role in society, the torturing and oppression of slaves the world over, etc.), but training for Kung Fu does not need to evolve, in my opinion.

[SaekSan]

When I first came to the States I was teaching full-contact without pads (mouthpiece and groin cup only), that's how I was taught and practiced. I had very few students at that time that were willing to learn that way though. After a while I became associated with the USCKF and we started using helmet (caged) and gloves (open fingers). The number of interested students grew three times larger than before, the students were having less serious injuries on average (but they still occured), we were able to practice more often and the students seemed to become far more skilled in fighting than before.

One day one of my students from the old days came back to the school (he spent a few years in Brazil but that's another story), he came back to a San Shou practice and put the gear on and... tore apart the fighters. One night we had a BBQ at my place and during a conversation he said:

"You guys nowadays are a bunch of p*ssies, you got too used to fighting under rules and with equipment, when Shifu taught at the old school we fought for real, you all should develop that agressive instinct that you only get by knowing that either you're gonna f*ck them or they're gonna f*ck you"

That statement opened a flood of conversation and the students present learned a lot from it. Looking back I guess in my wanting to conform to the rules and create a "safe" atmosphere for fighting I sacrificed a basic thing, teaching how to be ruthless. This experience made my fighters far more aware of their abilities and made them willing to explore this other facet of combat.

I think that it is best to begin training with gear before even attempting to move on to no pads (if you really want that). The pads provide a step towards reality combat. One thing I would also recommend is always look to fight people that are not from your school, this helps with keeping your techniques and strategy on edge. Being able to beat all of your students in bare knuckle fighting doesn't mean that you're a great fighter it just means that you can beat your students. :)

I'm sure that if available our "ancestors" would use equipment for training but there's always room for a little smackdown now and then. :D

[redofthenorth]

Thank you for the words of wisdom SAEKSAN they way heavy upon my heart and fill the mind with proper though


"AMITOFO"

:)

[DragonzRage]

Your very definition of "full contact" is flawed. You said yourself that you don't let your people go full contact to the face (and of course people shouldn't hit each other hard in the head without gloves/headgear). One thing I've learned about sparring through all my yrs of MA training is that if you're not getting punched hard in the head, you are NOT going full contact. I've had a good amount of past experience with the type of sparring you're advocating. ANd altho it sounds good on paper, from what I've seen it basically boils down to monotonously punching each other in the chest along with the occasional slaps across the head. Now this type of training does have its uses, but it is hardly the most practical way to spar.

I don't think anyone is trying to argue that Muay Thai or anything else has all the answers. If anything, you're the one trying to argue that your method is the best and most realistic way. After all, you're the one who opened to topic up for discussion to begin with. Notice that 7Star doesn't only train in Muay Thai. Also, lkfmdc ain't no muay thai guy. He's actually a very successful fight trainer with a heavy kungfu background. We're talking training methods here, not individual styles. Looks to me like you just can't seem to handle the idea that not everyone agrees with you.

[redofthenorth]

Well put DRAGONZRAGE you do speek truly and from the heart. Forgive me in not noticing the truth you speek. I am a litle defensive I must admit do to most people including a local gear shop not leting me buy there product do to them not agreeing with my sparing practice.

However we more than slap tp the head like I already said the only thang we dont do is youse full hsing yi or yi quan ( qi Kung) punches to the head. Unfortunatly I know the realitys of these possibly leathal skills and strikes to much.

I stoped a muging in San Fransisco and hit the Knife weilding muger in the head so hard it fractured his skull and caused masive brain damage. I feel horible to this day and sometimes fear the use of force. It is somethang that I have to deal with all the time and work through during meditation so that I may respect the power and knowledge and not abuse it.



However I must say "THANK YOU TO EVERYONE" for you ideas insight and sharing belifes on sparing and traning with me. In light of this I have decided that if students "want " to wear Head gear and Gloves that is ther choice. This is the new way it shall be in my school. So therfore I leave this in mind are you all on my side or are we all already one? In this day and age there is already enough violence and seperation due to , Race , religon, creed, sexual preferance etc....so the last place that it should also be is in a place where we all can get in shape, clean the mind and body inside and out and learn discoplin, exeptance and most of all compation for this all to short of life and its butiful arts.

[Mutant]

hard sparring w/o gear is great sometimes, but if relyed on exclusively it is lacking.

it completely changes the game when someone is REALLY trying to take your head off. talk about reality training. you don't get that if youre going relatively light, and it does sound like that based on your description. it still hurts. bad. but then youre generally healthy enough to spar more often and therefore get better faster.

I think youre confused assuming training with gear/padding = less intent and ferocity, when in fact it can equal more. and you can still train w/o the gear. there's no false sense of security about it. why not do both at times?

maybe we're talking apples vs oranges here :confused:

[Mutant]

just read your last post after i posted that. sounds like your training is working just fine for you; i thoght maybe you were just p#ssy slapping around but i guess not :D

[SevenStar]

Well I am glad you thank tha mui tai have all the answers ....the truth is none of us have all the answers there is only so much to do with fist and foot. On the other hand I have developed Iron leg from teaching the way I do ( No Pads ) I have sparred many Muy tai combatants and have had them limp away not from pain mind you but from either shin splints or fractures from hiting my leg. Yes I have no feeling physicaly in my shins. this is good and bad of corse but I to have it. I also have whent to other schools and spared and have done the pad thang . Sorry to burst the beubble but the amatures and the teachers at the local schools did not know how to handle the full strikes. However this has allowed me to gain some trusted student and freinds out of the school.

I must have missed the part where I said muay thai had all of the answers. However, I have to doubt you about a boxer that doesn't know how to handle full power strikes.



one thang has definatly not changed over the last 1000 years we are still all open to have our own openion and if posts like this bore you why did you respond and post back?

Is this directed at me?

[SevenStar]

Actually, having played both rugby and football, and known many footballers during my days (that's American Football, of course), the pads DEFINITELY make the players feel invulnerable. If anything, they not only feel but are taught to hit the other player as hard as humanly possible so that the player getting tackled actually feels it through their pads. It's one of the reasons there are so many injuries in football. Because of ego, not because of padding. They feel like they have to CREAM the other guy so they feel it. Why? Because they are wearing pads and feel like they have a point to make. Rugby, on the other, has no pads. And strangely, there are quite literally 1/3 as many injuries, professional rugby players outlast football players by a good decade, and tackles are done for accuracy and efficiency, not pain. Why? Because you aren't wearing pads, so retaliation is one of the many concerns. If I hit someone hard over the head in football, they wouldn't even flinch. It's actually expected because of the helmet. However, if you tried it in rugby, the retaliation would be swift and hard.

yeah, reading it this way, I agree with you. However, I still disagree about the feeling of invulnerability. I know for a fact I didn't have one. I know the rest of us did not either.



And I really do see where you are coming from with the headgear and mouthguard. I think that they could be required wear and sparring wouldn't suffer too much. Personally, I prefer not to wear them. I would rather know I can take a knock to my noggin' like I would get in the "real" world. But to each his own.

it's not about taking a knock to the noggin. It's about REPEATED knocks to the noggin. it's not one fight where you fight and go about your way, it's sparring hard, day in and day out. However, once upon a time I didn't wear mouthguards either - then I got a tooth knocked out. I have a porcelain crown, so you can't tell it's not real, but the lesson was learned. I've never had that happen in a fight, but I spar full contact way more than I fight, so naturally the chance is higher. I still hate mouthguards, but I always wear one.



As for not conditioning my shins outside of class... That's not my fault at all. Our style is not about bashing shins. It's not even about making leg to leg contact. It does happen in sparring, but not because it is "supposed" to.

We are no different. we don't just wrecklessly bash shins. However, the leg check is a standard kick defense. If your legs aren't conditioned to it, it will hurt. I'd imagine that your style is not about bashing eachother's head in either, but you still want to be able to take a shot to the head, no?



If anything, the pain of banging shins has made me learn other means of stopping a kick without risk of coming home with bruises the size of grapefruits on the front of my legs. We're not a leg bashing style (other than knee breaks and sweeps, of course), so I have no need to "condition" my shins by banging them against something for a few hours to desensitize them. Not saying that it is a bad practice, just not needed for my style.

evasion is another standard defense. But what happens if you don't have time to evade? you check. so your shins need to be conditioned. It's like the whole ground fighting argument. People may not WANT to go to the ground, but if they DO end up there, they need to know how to efficiently get up. If your shins are hurting when you do happen to collide, I'd venture to say that it is needed...


As for the 1,000's of years have passed so let's throw out tradition argument... Your examples of what has changed in the last 1,000 years is completely relative. Saying that electricity has made our lives better is completely opinion. There are plenty of people throughout the world that live complete and full lives with never turning on a single lamp. Just because it has become a societal norm does not make it better than a 1,000 years ago. Same goes for indoor plumbing. I have gone camping plenty of times where you had to dig your own toilet. You know what? I enjoyed doing it. Sounds disgusting by today's standards, but there's something about making your own way with just your hands and a shovel that makes you feel more in tune with things. As for teeth... well... you got me there. I definitely prefer to keep mine. So just because something has changed in the last 1,000 years, does not necessarily make it better. Nor does unchanging tradition make things worse. Some traditions have absolutely needed to change (the feminine role in society, the torturing and oppression of slaves the world over, etc.), but training for Kung Fu does not need to evolve, in my opinion.

you and red are both confusing my post with LKFMDC. however, the people who "have never turned on a lamp" don't know what their life would be like if they had a lamp. It's not that it wouldn't be better, it's that they don't know, so they have nothing to compare to.

Why do you think that kung fu training does not need to evlove? Do you REALLY think that what you are doing now is the EXACT same as it was 1,000 years ago?

[SevenStar]

.......

- 50% of your students are dancers so you teach them forms only.
- 30% of your students like to fight but afraid of being hurt so you teach them "light" contact sparring.
- 20% of your students are fighters so you train them in the ring.

Those students who don't fight "full contact" will pay 80% of your bill.

nice.

[lkfmdc]

Some people are really dense, so lets try this AGAIN

no one went to WW I carrying a rifle from the civil war

no one went to WWII with the weapons of WW I

no one tried to fight the Vietnam war with the weapons of WW II

The weapons of the second gulf war far exceed the weapons of the first world war....

And sorry to burst your bubble, but the past was anything but "glorious". People lived short, nasty, brutal lives. They died early from lack of medical attention and health care. Many died simply because food wasn't prepared properly. People went blind for things that today we can solve with a single injection.

The average age 1000 yrs ago was in the 30's dude. The average height was closer to 5' 3" due to malnutrition. If you want to live in the past, I CHALLENGE YOU to do so. Funny, you seem to be typing on a friggin computer aren't you???

[crazylegs]

SevenStar:
Actually, you are correct. My 1000's of years ago thing was not directed at you. It was to an earlier post.

But to answer your question... it's not that I don't think training should evolve, that was a poor choice of words. But rather that tradition should not be forgotten. Did Shaolin monks not practice with pads because they don't know about them? Or is it because they feel they receive better training because they don't use them? Honestly, I don't know the answer. I am far from being a monk. However, I do believe that they have held on to the best practices of their traditions because of a very simple rule: they work. In other words, why fix what isn't broken?

Granted, I am a big advocate for change, and have seen the world grow and evolve around me over the years. Some things I think are great... some terrible. But evolution is not only a state of being, it is also a state of mind. And it is completely relative. There are those that have not turned on a lamp not because of ignorance, but because of choice. True mountain men... the Amish... several groups of gypsies still roaming Europe... They choose to adhere to their traditions and roots, and live very full lives regardless of how others around the world view them. It's about personal choice, first and foremost.

So along those lines, I do see many of your points with padded sparring. And I can definitely see where some might prefer to spar with pads, even just a mouthguard and head protection. I truly feel that you can learn "reality" fighting with pads. I just feel that my school's style will help you face the "reality" of fighting a bit quicker, and perhaps a bit more in depth.

All things considered, I hope I go through life and never have to face the kind of situation that requires this knowledge. I think of it like health insurance. You can pay for cheap insurance under the hopes that you will not get ill. And, in general, you can go through life and save lots of money by going this route and you could very well never need a higher level of insurance. But I would rather spend a bit more to make sure that if that one big visit is ever needed, I'm covered. Granted, I might invest a lot more money, and at times feel like it was wasted, but when my life is saved because I put a bit more in, it will all be worth it to me. Stupid analogy, I know... but it's the first that came to mind.

And point taken about the shins. I've honestly gotten the conditioning over time. Believe me, I wish I could say I always throw a perfect block or a perfectly executed knife foot each time I want to avoid a kick, but I would be lying out my butt. I still hit shin to shin, and at least a few times each sparring round. Over a few years of doing so, I am pretty much able to ignore them in sparring now. They still hurt a bit, but they don't stop me at all. So although I didn't beat up a punching bag or kick a tree until it fell over (man that's good stuff...), I have some of the conditioning you are speaking of just by sparring consistently. I guess what I was referring to in my earlier post was my first couple of sparring rounds. A lot has changed since then...

To everyone else:
Believe me, we do not pu**y slap each other. I've been hit hard enough in the head to get knocked out, and I've had tiger claw raked across my neck and back of head deep enough that I had scratches for a good month. Do we hit with 100% power? No, because we don't want to kill each other. We are training, not fighting. But we definitely hit hard enough so that we know if they HAD hit 100%, we would have been done for.

And for those that question whether or not that is safe... well... I guess there is a degree of risk involved. But generally speaking, we reserve head hitting permission for the upper students. The lower students are told to hit the head if it's completely open, but to avoid swinging hard at the head until they have confidence with their fists. It's not a science, but it's worked well so far. And for the record, both of the above injuries were done to me by master students, and I've since learned my lesson and have safely (for the most part) avoided repeats.

[crazylegs]

Some people are really dense, so lets try this AGAIN

no one went to WW I carrying a rifle from the civil war

no one went to WWII with the weapons of WW I

no one tried to fight the Vietnam war with the weapons of WW II

The weapons of the second gulf war far exceed the weapons of the first world war....

And sorry to burst your bubble, but the past was anything but "glorious". People lived short, nasty, brutal lives. They died early from lack of medical attention and health care. Many died simply because food wasn't prepared properly. People went blind for things that today we can solve with a single injection.

The average age 1000 yrs ago was in the 30's dude. The average height was closer to 5' 3" due to malnutrition. If you want to live in the past, I CHALLENGE YOU to do so. Funny, you seem to be typing on a friggin computer aren't you???

First of all, I never said I am one of those people that live without lamps. Nor did I say that I would ever choose that kind of life. Rather, I was saying that evolution is just as much a state of mind as it is a state of "reality". Read the my post above for more of my thoughts on that.

But your attempt at proving your point that tradition is worthless and that everything that changes is better is flawed in comparing it to kung fu training. You used weapons as your basis, which is fair enough. And I see your point in using them. But weapons, over time, have become more and more lethal to the point of near obsurdity. I think it would be darn near impossible to prove that because of pads, martial arts training has become more and more lethal over time. For that matter, that it is the use of pads that has improved training at all. There is no real way to quantify that kind of thing.

Techonology and science? Yes. Although I still think it's debatable if either has truly made our lives better. Depends entirely on your point of view.

But we are talking about kung fu, which at its very core has a spiritual and very mental aspect to it. That's not something you can get into a formula to see if it's improved or even evolved over time. You can only see how things have changed, and if they suit your personal taste with their current practices than the more traditional forms of study, than for you the new forms of kung fu training are better. But for me, personally, I think the traditional means of training are better. Not because I think new means are bad, but because I think the old ways are better.

Personal choice and preference.

[lkfmdc]

Experience shows, guys like you will believe what you want, no matter what evidence is dumped in their lap

Look at boxing from the early part of the century, then compare it to today's boxing.

Heck, compare Ali, called "the Greatest" to modern boxing, that's a 30 year difference.

Same with Judo, wrestling, and in fact ANY physical performance that has been measured over the years...

People who say they go "no pads" always insist they go "full contact"...... If you are really going full contact, you're sparring once a month and then healing for 3 weeks. Who is going to be better, the guy who spars once a month or the guy who spars three times per week?

Otherwise, your version of "full contact" isn't very contact at all!!!

Dude, you don't even do head contact. Experience shows that all we have to do is add back in the REALITY of head contact and you guys are gonna fall apart. We have thousands of Kyokushinkai guys as case studies on that one.

Believe what you want, for example 1000 years ago they thought the world was flat and the earth was the center of the universe. Martial arts people still have frighteningly similar views on themselves....

:rolleyes:

[redofthenorth]

You are corect I am on a computer aparently you are in the future and ****her advanced in understanding nut get your fact straight. Buble bursting season opend .

1. forty five caliber hand gun still in use when was it created? 1911 used in world war1 and 2 smart A## ogh and what else veit nam, desert storm, iraqui freedom still in use.

2. German mustard gas ww1 and 2.

3. pop top german granade ww1 and 2.

4. m1 grand ww1 and2 desert storm and a small place called rusia.

5. ak47 (sks huskavarnim) nam and Operation Iraqui freedom.

Dont asume you know the future it dosent exist the past is behind all there is is now and that is it. before you try to put someone down for living in the past maybe you should relize that your ignorance in it will only doom your future. and dint you say this was a waist of your time? what are you still doing hear or did you not learn from the past again?

Anyway none of use are write or wrong as I already stated above.

[redofthenorth]

The true thang is my student rotate sparing at least once a week is it we dont hit so called "Full contact" or that we know how to heal and in my clases. In the past my students have had to defend themselves in true life all of use did fine. the ring and practice is one thang definding yourself against a knife on the street and in a actual street fight is compleatly diferent and that is the only time that it maters what you have done in your tranning. I dont do martial arts for trophys or for fame hell I even hand pick my students and refuse at least twice as many . It isnt about trophys or mony it is about defense and mastery over the illusion and shell of the self.

[SiuHung]

But we are talking about kung fu, which at its very core has a spiritual and very mental aspect to it.



Sorry to interject, but this is total poo poo. Kung fu, and I assume you are talking about Chinese martial arts, are martial at thier core. Spirituality and other qualities have thier merits, but are not unique to martial arts. If you want to have martial skill, train intelligently...which means use the best available technology. This isn't to say that CMA are outdated, but rather many people's training methodologies aren't up to date, and they often lack a basic understanding of the strategies and techniques used by those they will face in competition.

[redofthenorth]

thank you I have wated so long for someone to bring this up . My school is not a compatition school nore will we ever be . We are not a sport school.

[crazylegs]

I think we are referring to similar things, SiuHung. By spiritual I don't mean religious or even the intangible word "honor". Rather, I mean finding the energy within to overcome some of the physical hardships that are associated with martial training. I have, on many occasions, stopped to think about some of our limb breaks, and reflect on how vicious they are and what they would actually do to someone in use. To me, the ability to use that kind of power responsibly and even inteligently requires a bit of inner vision and foresight, which to me, is spiritual and mental. Connecting not only to your training but to the world around you.

Meaning, you can walk the walk, but can you actually USE what you've learned. That's where the mind games begin, and the true strength of the heart is found.

[SiuHung]

thank you I have wated so long for someone to bring this up . My school is not a compatition school nore will we ever be . We are not a sport school.

So you train for what?
Not for sport so it's either for personal developement, though you'll never test it to see how it stacks up...Or it's for "the street" which means you need to test it in the closest and safest thing available a.k.a. competition. Otherwise, how will you or your hand picked students know it works?

[SaekSan]

Redofthenorth,

You said that you teach Northern Shaolin, may I ask what line?

I'm pretty sure SiuHung does not mean competition only in a sporting sense. I know him personally and would say that he definately does not fall in the "sport school" category.

Competition (sporting or otherwise) is pretty essential for development nowadays since challanges are pretty much outlawed (and outdated), which brings me back to the original question of what line of NS you teach? There's plenty of NS masters and scools that entered competition (some still do) and did extremely well and these schools I would not categorize as "sport schools".

Competition, whithin the right venue, can be very good for the students and teacher as they can exchange knowledge, viewpoints and experience with others that are like-minded (not with the closed-minded ones of course :D ) the teacher can also network and broaden their horizons with other teachers to understand other styles and ultimately understanding their own.

[lkfmdc]

Dear lord, LMFAO at the stupidity of these posts....

OK dude, let's have a gun fight, you can have your 1911 45 caliber revolver and I'll use the 50 caliber sniper rifle. Problem for you, I can hit you at 10 times the distance you can hit me. But your weapon is the "traditional one" :eek:

The last retreat of the desperate, you're not a "sport school", ie you never have to confront the inefficiencies of your method when confronted in competition by those training in more modern methods....

People who aren't living in Shaolin temples in the sky know who I am and what my students are known for.... who are you?

[crazylegs]

But you are comparing apples and oranges. Of course you can hit him from 10 times the distance... you are using a frickin' sniper rifle! Give him a sniper rifle circa WW1 and it would be much more relevant challenge. And there are snipers in this world that prefer the older models to the new fangled ones. Why? Because it's what they were trained on in the backfields of whatever country they are from. Again, it's preference.

This argument is getting on the ugly side, so I will bow out with a few final comments.

My sifu's original intention with this post was to see how many others out there spar without pads and full contact, and to see if anyone could suggest to him why he would want to change. Although it seemed he was defensive, really he was just arguing to get more information and to get more eloquent responses.

Which he did, and we both discussed the merits of the various responses at class last night. Some of them we thought were well-stated, and honestly convinced our class that future students will have the option to wear headgear and mouthguards should they wish to.

However, trying to state that our style of training is outdated is complete opinion. Stick to the martial art realms, and try and get away from this philosophical trend you've been building. This is not about healthcare and weaponry from thousands of years ago. It is about the martial arts, and how they have been trained in the past, and the traditions that are still alive today. Some are good, and some are not as good. But to say that something is worthless because it is traditional just doesn't make any sense. NOR does it make any sense to say that something has worth BECAUSE it is traditional. I know that. I am basing my worth of our sparring system for what it has done for me, and how I have seen the other students in my classes respond to the training.

[SiuHung]

Crazylegs, I sense conflict within you in regard to your training...Come over to the dark side of the force. :D

[FatherDog]

The true thang is my student rotate sparing at least once a week is it we dont hit so called "Full contact" or that we know how to heal and in my clases.

If you're sparring "full contact" with no pads once a week with no serious injuries that prevent you from sparring again, then either our definitions of "full contact" differ drastically, or you hit like complete girls.


In the past my students have had to defend themselves in true life all of use did fine.

There are plenty of people with no training whatsoever who've had to defend themselves in "true life" and done fine, so that's not really much of an argument.

[redofthenorth]

well there is alott to answer here first of I would like to thank my Si suke for voicing his opinions on this post ... thank you crazylegs. Second fATHERDOG this was never an argument I apologize if you thought we were having one. And I belive it was you sevenstar that asked my line and style. These are the styles I have ben trained in I spelt the Chinese names faneticaly for eiser pronounciation not that induividuals such as yourself would need it.


KUNG FU:
Silum kung fu from wong jackman
Dale freeman and Roy sorvari.

CHI KUNG:
Ping Si yu
Madam Min ou Yang
Dale Freeman
Roy sorvari

Tai Chi:
Ping Si YU
Madam Min ou Yang
Dale Freeman
Roy Sorvari

Yi Quan :
Wang chian chi
Ping Si yu
MIn Ou Yang
Dale freeman
Roy sorvari

Meditation and buddha:
Thich Knhat Han
Buddha
Sifu
Tai Sifu
Dali Lama
Mom

Anyway I belive that this post is being mis read by some of the readers All I wanted was advice and I now have it. Here is my line thanks guys and feel free to e- mail me I will check the post later though.

[Knifefighter]

A Kenpo master sparred me at my Sifu"s
school when he dilevered a punch it would consistantly be out of reach by one to 2 inches...why? He openy addmited that it was
from wearing and traning with pads.
Most Kenpo systems have their practitioners pull their punches when and if they spar. Being out of reach when hitting is the direct result of this, not the use of protective equipment.

Using equipment allows you to hit with full force through your target. This develops an incredible amount of speed and power. Boxers, who use gloves and, sometimes, headgear, hit harder and faster than just about any other strikers. This is a direct result of using protective equipment.

[rogue]

OK dude, let's have a gun fight, you can have your 1911 45 caliber revolver and I'll use the 50 caliber sniper rifle. Problem for you, I can hit you at 10 times the distance you can hit me. But your weapon is the "traditional one" This paragraph is the result of NYC gun laws. Please help stamp out bad gun laws. :D

[FatherDog]

Second fATHERDOG this was never an argument I apologize if you thought we were having one.


ar·gu·ment Pronunciation Key (ärgy-mnt)
n.

1.
1. A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate.
2. A quarrel; a dispute.
3. Archaic. A reason or matter for dispute or contention: “sheath'd their swords for lack of argument” (Shakespeare).
2.
1. A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood: presented a careful argument for extraterrestrial life.
2. A fact or statement put forth as proof or evidence; a reason: The current low mortgage rates are an argument for buying a house now.
3. A set of statements in which one follows logically as a conclusion from the others.


Your statement, " In the past my students have had to defend themselves in true life all of use did fine.", was a "statement put forth as proof or evidence" that your training methods are sound. I was noting that this is fallacious reasoning.

[Mutant]

I would definately recommend adding good quality gear to your sparring, at least for 1 night a week or something to get used to it. With gear you really can spar harder, push it, go full out with less injuries so you can train more often. And you can really put pressure with head shots on that you wouldnt be used to otherwise, and that can add more realism than lack of gear and going lighter.

For gear, what kind of gear you get and use definately matters. If you get cheap foam tkd school type stuff like tiger-claw, etc, then yes, the gear is awkward, distracting and in the way. Go with 16 oz quality boxing gloves from ringside, fairtex, reyes, etc, use olympic-style leather boxing headgear, shock-doctor type mouthpiece, thai style shin pads...

You can still do a lot of hard sparring with no gear, its not like its one or the other so you keep that too, but by integrating good gear you can do valuable drills and sparring that you otherwise cannot safely do without, and there is value in that.

Anyway, thats my take on the matter. Have a good weekend.

[redofthenorth]

Mutant thank you for the sugestion i really will check out the gear....and forgive me for not knowing your name yet but the kenpo master could not I repeat I would stand still and he would and could not hit me. He should have taken my head off.

[Infrazael]

I'm very sorry, but IF us Choy Lay Fut players decided one day. . ... . .

"Hey, let's spar NO RULES and NO GEAR!!!" We'd be in the hospital by now.

Chop Choys to the neck, face, throat, temples, solar plexus, sternum, groin, ribs. . . . . . . etc. . . . . are meant to rake and crush parts of the human body. I don't think I want that to happen.

Sao Choys to the neck = a VERY strong chance of a broken neck. Sao Choys to anywhere else usually leads to something else getting screwed up. And unlike Thai kicks, the surface area is smaller, so greater pressure. . . . . and thai kicks don't come down on your collarbone, and are usually too big to specifically aim for the neck, whereas a Sao Choy is faster, has increased pressure, and is more precise.

How about 5 animal stuff? Tiger claws to the face? Crane strikes to weak spots? I don't think people would enjoy living very much after that.

Sparring without gloves can be done. Sparring without rules SHOULD NEVER BE DONE. Unless you want someone dead, that is.

I don't plan on walking out of class with a cracked rib every time.

Peace

[MasterKiller]

For gear, what kind of gear you get and use definately matters. If you get cheap foam tkd school type stuff like tiger-claw, etc, then yes, the gear is awkward, distracting and in the way. Go with 16 oz quality boxing gloves from ringside, fairtex, reyes, etc, use olympic-style leather boxing headgear, shock-doctor type mouthpiece, thai style shin pads....
The only problem I have with that suggestion is that boxing gloves limit the amount of grabbing and grappling you can do. But if you only do the boxing gloves a couple of times a week and train grabbing throwing on other days I think it's a pretty good idea.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Techonology and science? Yes. Although I still think it's debatable if either has truly made our lives better.


This was so funny it needed to be repeated.

:rolleyes:

[Ray Pina]

LKFM is right, a 1,000 years ago is 1,000 years ago. You have gear today! Use it.

You and your men need to decide what level of contact is suitable for now. I think the best is to fight 80% speed, 50% power at first and have someone break the action if it becomes too one sided.

Little by little your men will enjoy this and naturally want to push it. Before you know it, no gear, full contact is the only way to get that same feeling. Or lack of feeling and just being there.

.....

Regarding the deadly shots. Many shots can be harmful to ones's health. But can the shots land against the trained fighter. That is the whole point. No doubt me kicking you in the balls will hurt .... but can I kick you, a trained martial artist, so easily in the balls?

Same goes for all kinds of neck chops, etc.

[Stranger]

We have thousands of Kyokushinkai guys as case studies on that one.

There are many Kyokushin-kai fighters that do train w/head shots, and therefore do not possess this gap in their standup game.

[Mutant]

The only problem I have with that suggestion is that boxing gloves limit the amount of grabbing and grappling you can do. But if you only do the boxing gloves a couple of times a week and train grabbing throwing on other days I think it's a pretty good idea.

Yes, good point. mma gloves are good too so you can use grappling, but boxing gloves allow you to go even harder with head shots so they serve a purpose as well. Implementing both is probably good.

[Ray Pina]

I can understand what the gentleman is saying to a point.... he is not teaching San Da so maybe he doesn't have to train that way. Who knows his system better than he does? He was trained, so he may know what's the best way to get his system's flavor across.

Hell, I have guys on here telling me I need to run 5 miles and lift weight and jump rope and eat broiled chicken .... and I do if I want to put boxing gloves on and trade blows in a ring.

Can I go fight in the ring? I think I could IF I started to condition like that but that doesn't interest me. I'd rather wait for the champ outside and see if he wants to fight for his medal.

The problem we have here is MMA guys are telling Kung Fu guys how to train .... and it appears a lot of them are stupid enough to listen. And it goes both ways. A Hung Gar guy better get big and strong to use that kind of technique .... he shouldn't be listening to a taiji guy talking about absorbing and relaxing. Don't tell the BJJ guy to train his Phoenix Eye punch.

In the end there's only one way to determine if any of the training is right .... and that's free fighting. Competition is a great format. But that can be as much as a trap as traditional training ..... figthing guys the same exact weight as you with 10 or 12 oz gloves and head gear .... that can promote a lot of unhealthy trading of blows, conditioning, etc, over technique.

Let's not forget, martial arts is not a sport. It's kill or be killed. And you have to summon that if the guy is 170 or 280.

I don't need to shoot someone to know that the gun can kill. Maybe this gentleman has similar training ..... who here can say for sure over the internet. If it really makes someone lose sleep, go and play with them and find out for sure. But I think it's in poor taste to slander someone over the net, especially in front of their students.

[hjt]

ray

i read in one of the previous threads that you have "tested your skills" against Hung Ga students and succeeded against them. Where were these students from (NYC) and what school? I m just interested in knowing.

thank you

[MasterKiller]

Boxers, who use gloves and, sometimes, headgear, hit harder and faster than just about any other strikers. This is a direct result of using protective equipment. I agree. But, is there such a thing as too hard? Does it lead to injuries like this if you never practice without gear and suddenly you find yourself in a street fight?

http://www.gentili.net/fracture.asp?ID=153

Tyson broke his hand in a street fight, right?

[Mutant]

Well Ray, redofthenorth was asking for opinions and advice regarding integrating gear into his sparring program, and people were just responding with suggestions from different points of view, no big party foul there.

redofthenorth; you might want to contact Brent Hamby from EMB Kung Fu / Oakland SanShou. He is also a former student of Wong Jack Man and teaches out of Oakland. He runs one of the best sanshou programs in the country and also teaches traditional and he may be able to offer a good perspective on how to balance sparring with gear using your style of kungfu without compromising too much.

check out Brents webpage (http://www.kungfu.net/people.html)

[Knifefighter]

I agree. But, is there such a thing as too hard? Does it lead to injuries like this if you never practice without gear and suddenly you find yourself in a
street fight?
Tyson broke his hand in a street fight, right?.Boxers hit extremely hard and have been known to break their hands when fighting without hand protection. However, who would you rather be, the guy who hits so hard he breaks his hand on his opponent's face, or the opponent, whose face was just hit hard enought to break the boxer's hand?

[Ray Pina]

hjt, I don't want to name a school in particular because that could be in poor taist. But I've played with Hung Gar and Wing Chun guys from Chinatown -- several from the Free Mason's association -- as well as a few from Long Island. But this was at least 3 years ago. I don't really have much interest in fighting Kung Fu at this moment.

I find playing BJJ, MMA type fighters more interesting right now, just because it's new to me. The fights themselves are more technical and rewarding.

[MasterKiller]

Boxers hit extremely hard and have been known to break their hands when fighting without hand protection. However, who would you rather be, the guy who hits so hard he breaks his hand on his opponent's face, or the opponent, whose face was just hit hard enought to break the boxer's hand?

I'd rather be the guy that used a wilow palm instead of a fist and didn't break his hand, or get his face broken....if you wanna know the truth. :p

[Reign-Of-Terror]

actually in shooto they spar without equipment or gloves (often at least) and go in various intensity levels. Its a good practise. I actually think going lgiht or medium contact with gloves or not is the best cause you cant learn when someone is trying to take your head off and your in there to survive rather than actually learn how to use defense and offense effectively. My mt coach would always get mad at people whos tarted sparring too hard especially if theyw er ebiggeners or were facing biggeners. He would point out that even in thailand they go very light and often with no equipment.

[SevenStar]

My mt coach would always get mad at people whos tarted sparring too hard especially if theyw er ebiggeners or were facing biggeners. He would point out that even in thailand they go very light and often with no equipment.

1. "especially if they were beginners" - yeah, that's understandable.

2. in thailand, they fight as often as once per week. If they get injured during sparring, they can't fight.

[lkfmdc]

the amount of false information circulated regarding how people in Thailand supposedly train is staggering.... it's as if it's a fantasy land where you can assert anything you want happens, the reality is quite different. Anyone who has trained in Thailand will tell you that they do use gear in training, including shin guards and head gear. They are VERY concerned about injury because to fight is to make a living, you can't fight, you don't get paid, you can't eat....

[Reign-Of-Terror]

the amount of false information circulated regarding how people in Thailand supposedly train is staggering.... it's as if it's a fantasy land where you can assert anything you want happens, the reality is quite different. Anyone who has trained in Thailand will tell you that they do use gear in training, including shin guards and head gear. They are VERY concerned about injury because to fight is to make a living, you can't fight, you don't get paid, you can't eat....

the guy who told me this (my teacher at the time) practically lives in thailand. His name is Bob Chaney. He is like a celebrity there. He would say there is no point of hurting your training partners cause nobody will wnat to spar with you. We all generally sparred light, and every wednesday. On other days sometimes we would do just leg sparring or other drills if not the standard stuff. ALso it really depends on the camp in thailand, they all train differently.

[Reign-Of-Terror]

by the way any of you heard of slap boxing? I heard its popular in many inner cities and prisons as a training tool similar to sparring but without risk of injury. I also hear they slap kickbox at the chute boxe academy as a part of training.

[SevenStar]

slap boxing is merely play fighting... like boxing with an open hand - so your hits are only slaps, hence the name. We used to do it all the time when I was a kid.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Since I worked in D.C. I did get to see several "slap boxing" matches...Nothing like watching grown men slap each other like a couple of little girls.

They told me it was less risk of breaking their trigger finger...

[SevenStar]

but there's actually more risk...

[David Jamieson]

*ahem*

gear=good especially if you engage in full contact sparring.

you can ensure that less injury is sustained and you can recycle your training partners and you can continue to spar at that level and degree once or twice a week.

no gear in my opinion is foolishness. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. It's easier to get hurt. At the very very least wear a cup and a mouth guard and have courtesy when striking to the head.

But if you really want to do it proper to the highest level of realism, it is only good sense to wear head gear, gloves (mma or boxing are fine) a cup, a mouthguard, shins (if you really want to, i personally don't see these as a necessity but for some guys they are). and some times it is also a preference to wear the chest armour.

now, if you are in the ring fighting for money, I would still recommend a cup a mouthguard and gloves. That's standard.

anywho...