Non-mantis Of Two Famous Taiwan Mantis Masters

[lamakwoklee]

I'd like to hear from a Plum Flower/ Secret Door Mantis practitioner about the non-Mantis portions of the curriculums of Grandmasters Zhang De Kui, and Li Kun Shan.

I ask because I read that Zhang De Kui learned the Tsai Kway (Helmet Scatcher)series at the Nanjing Central Guoshu Institute. I don't claim expertise in Taiwan Mantis, though I'd like to learn Mi Men Mantis. I didn't know that GM Zhang was affiliated with that organization.

Also, I've read that Li Kun Shan was skilled in Di Tang Quan, before he took up Tang Lang Quan, and that he included Di Tang material in his curriculum. Is this fact?

[lamakwoklee]

Let me clarify one point. I don't remember exactly where I read the statement that linked GM Zhang with the Nanjing association. That's why I ask. I was under the impression, perhaps misguided, that he went straight from Shandong to Taiwan. Those who would know better may feel free to correct me on this.

[Laviathan]

I have only trained a bit of Meihua, but...

I've read somewhere that Zhang Dekui learned Mizong Boxing during his travels in Northern China. He later went to Dalian in the North-East, and from Dalian he went to Taiwan where settled down in Tainan.

Li Kunshan was said to have learned Long Fist and Digongquan (Ground Boxing) from his uncle Li Mingge before learning Mantis from Jiang Hualong.

Hope this helps. :)

[gwleachiv]

On a somewhat related note, I'd like to hear more about Zhang Dekuei's purported mastery of the qinggong ("light body skill" or "flying skill") which I have seen referenced numerous times. This is particularly interesting to me in the context of two other pieces of information:

1) Ilya Profatilov's article in the JAMA specifically states that Wang Yuanqian related a story to him wherein Li Bingxiao demonstrated the "weightless body skill" to his disciple Zhao Zhu (aka Zhao Qiliu, the teacher of Liang Xuexiang, who in turn taught Jiang Hualong and Song Zide), promised to teach him, but passed away before he did. Thus the flying skill became a lost art of Praying Mantis as long ago as the early 1800s.

2) An article by Tony Yang (disciple of General Liu Yun Qiao), wherein he describes training under a Praying Mantis sifu named Su Li-Chang. Su apparently trained to where he could climb "a nine foot wall very fast" and "would often train his legs by climbing tall posts using no hands". I quote from that article "Often he taught ramp training where you laid a ramp at about forty-five degrees to a wall and ran up it. Gradually you increased the angle of the ramp until its removal. You then could run literally straight up a wall!" This kind of training seems like it would be logically connected to the qinggong.

I bring this up because I am under the impression that the "Su Li-Chang" referenced in Tony's article is the same person generally known as "Su Yu-Chang", a former student of both Liu Yun Qiao and Zhang Dekuei. Not only are the names similar, but Tony's artical speaks of studying with Su Li-Chang as a matrix through which one had to pass in order to merit studying with Liu Yun Qiao. The question then becomes: if this is so, has some of the qinggong skill for which Zhang Dekuei was famous been preserved in his students, particularly Su Yu-Chang?

I'd also be particularly interested to hear from students of Shi Zheng Zhong in this regard given his study under Zhang.

-Grady

Tony's article can be found here: http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/articles.html, under the title "Yang Shu-ton on TANG LANG HAND (Praying Mantis)".

Su Yu-Chang's website can be found here: http://www.pachitanglang.com/

[Three Harmonies]

I have heard on several occasions that Su Laoshi had this skill. But then again I have also heard he just knew how to run up a wall really well. He is tiny so it would not take much.
Jake :cool:

[Oso]

just raise your dan tien till it's above and outside your body.

then chase it.

not too hard.

:)

[gwleachiv]

Threeharmonies,

Thanks for your input. You say that Su "just knew how to run up a wall really well". I have to admit that running up a sheer wall parallel to the ground on any appreciable height with no hands is a pretty impressive feat. Can you articulate for us any training protocol of Su's concerning this ability in addition to those mentioned in Tony Yang's article?

Oso,

I'll assume for argument's sake that despite the smiley at the end of your post that you did not intend what you said to be entirely sarcastic. ;) If my assumption is accurate, could you share with us some methods designed to train this ability to "raise the dantien"? Did these methods come via Shi Zheng Zhong?

-Grady

[Oso]

:)

I'd a ;) or :D if I was being completely sarcastic.

first off...I haven't seen anything from Pong Lai in regards to this...so don't anyone take it as 'Pong Lai' or from Master Shi

secondly...I'm surely not claiming any ability to do this...only that I was instructed in a simple manner on how it might be achieved...and I was much smaller 20 years ago.

thirdly...the first person to laugh gets tossed as hard as I can manage...

it was simple visualization and imagination.

my hung gar teacher said those were the two prime requisates for doing anything involving chi manipulation.

so, simply put, I imagined my dan tien as a red globe and visualized it moving around my body, first as an aid in absorbing the shock from blows.

next was sending it down into the ground for aid in rooting.

next was sending it up to make the body lighter.

we used to practice in a clearing in the woods that was red clay. when it rained and turned it to mud we would try to cross it leaving as little trace as possible.

from there you just needed to learn how to quickly raise the ball above you as you tried to run up the wall. we had a block wall at my high school that would have been maybe 10 or 12 feet and we used to try to run up it and grab the top and lift ourselves up in one go.

.....

[lamakwoklee]

There's no proper way for me to respond to this exchange except to ask that you refer back to the original question.

[K.Brazier]

lamak,
Zhang Dekuei had no non mantis portions of PM.
He taught
basic roads
luanjie
zhai yao
bazhou

Li Kunshan was a different story.
Besides his Mantis, same as above but also mei hua lu, he also left behind manuscripts for forms of
digong
Taiji
Song Taizu
Iron Fist.

I only know about the Iron Fist, which he taught to my shiye Li Hongjie.

He also taught weapons, specializing in spear.
He spent his time in teaching 2 person drills.
This aspect was passed on, thank goodness, as this is one of the most important things, in my opinion, to learn.

He was well known in CHina for having won a large competition in China.

He also taught 3 turns 9 rotations qi gung which is a very important aspect of the miehua system. This is how the body is taught to withstand blows.

As for all the stories about qing gung etc. It is a bunch of hooey!
If there is qing gung all you need to do is stand on a scale and show your weight, no need for the parlor tricks.

There are more bogus stories attributed to Zhang then true stories.
My Shifu made a point to clear that stuff up when the BS started getting heavy.

There is even a famous comic book detailing his exploits and his student Su Yuzhang.
The story is based on a boy from Japan who studies Baji Chuen and meets Su in his travels.

In the comic, Su's MA fighting ability seems to transcend the ability of mortals.

As for using thought to imagine energy in the body, that is another thread, and liekly another forum.

The amount of material on this subject is quite large and dates back to when damo came to China and builds from there.

[gwleachiv]

Kevin,

Thank you for your input. Can you speak a little more about the "Three Returns Nine Rotations"? I remember reading about it in Ilya's JAMA article, and have heard of it mentioned in a number of other settings. Ilya's article seemed to imply that it involved striking hard surfaces (a wall, if memory serves) with different parts of the body. Is this accurate? You mention that it plays an important role in Meihua PM. What is that role? In other words, how does it fit into the martial curriculum? Thank you for your comments.

-Grady

[Oso]

As for using thought to imagine energy in the body, that is another thread, and liekly another forum.

true, but the question was asked.

:)

[Three Harmonies]

Sorry I cannot be of more help dude. I only heard snipits here and there about Su's supposed abilities, and trust me if homeboy can scale any wall without hands I find that just as impressive :eek: ! Big boys like me and Oso have to pound our way through walls, fat chance us going up and over :p !
I have heard stories where one will dig a hole and practice jumping out, gradually digging it deeper and deeper. True? Have no clue. Would it work? **** yeah! Save your self the headache and just do jumping squats and what not!

Cheers
Jake :cool:

[K.Brazier]

Oso,
You make me feel like I have to answer every question here.
I thought it best to save it for some other time as it is not closley related to MA(as opposed to hitting people).

Jake,
qing gung is the ability to make the body light. It can be considered a supernatural power.

Jumping out of a hole is exercise within the realm of what humans can do.
I did this at Art D.s school as well as here in Taiwan.

Shifu expalined it and I dug a hole out back.
There was an old book detailing all these gungs just mentioned here as well as many more.
Some of them were supernatural, such as the ability to shoot energy at a distance.

My Shifu's shifu said that they used to wear weights, but that it was too hot for that in Taiwan.

I stopped wearing weights when J Scolaro pointed out that lead, the weight I was using, is a poison which might mess me up.

Now we use a rock and throw it around.

GW,
I'll get to the 3 turns 9 rotations later.

[Oso]

Kevin,

That wasn't my intent. I was just saying that the question was seriously asked when I posted a mildly sarcastic response. So, I gave a response that was true to me.

FWIW, since the question is being asked about Mantis teachers I thinks it's at least mildy on topic. Surely any other training they had affected their mantis at least a little.


Matt

[K.Brazier]

Hi Matt,
What was the question again?
I looked up and couldn't figure it out.
All I can recall is that you want to play basketball with your dantien.

[Oso]

LOL, nope not basketball...chi balls... ;)

Grady asked about the light body stuff, I gave a semi-smart-assed response and he asked if I was at all serious....so I gave him the experience I had under my hung gar teacher.

[gwleachiv]

Kevin,

Thanks, I look forward to hearing about it. ;)

-Grady