View Full Version : Chin Na - Please read, Wing Chun practicioners.

09-09-2000, 02:51 AM
I'd like to speak out about Chin Na and the usefulness of it, because I know that alot of Wing Chuners do not practice it. The most useful thing I've noticed about it is that in Wing Chun, the only way to stop a fight is to knock the sh*t out of your opponent, knock his eyes out, kill him, or break his arms/legs/neck until he can no longer fight. Now, in a very brutal sense, this is all you need if you are only going to fight in a situation where you are trying to keep yourself alive against an opponent intent on killing or maiming you. However, real life requires more flexibility. There is nothing that Chin Na can give you in a survival style fight that you cannot already accomplish with Wing Chun, BUT in a fight where you want to subdue rather than destroy your opponent, Chin Na is your thing. You can end a fight with an arm bar or joint lock without hurting your opponent at all. If you get in a fight with an angry friend and want to cool him down, or a drunk and don't want to seriously hurt someone who isn't in complete control of their reasonin skills.. Chin Na is your answer. Its also very destructive, but not neccessarily moreso than Wing Chun.

- Scott.

09-09-2000, 03:53 AM
Hello Scott,

Wing Chun has plenty of Chin Na/Kum Sau in it. The difference is that many people never explore that aspect. When you consider stories of past masters being able to defeat opponents without causing them serious harm then they must have had another option than just beating the sh** out of someone /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Chi Sau sensitivity will translate very well into Chin Na techniques.

One last thing, in the "real" applicaiton of Chin Na you should either take your opponent up on his toes or downt o the ground. In between is not realisitc and will often get you hurt. Proper application of Chin Na is not just aobut applying a lock or throw but about disrupting the opponents balance and root.

Oh, you can always check out Alan Lambs methods as he incorporates a bit of Chin Na into his methods. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



09-09-2000, 05:14 PM
Hi Scot,
Umm what are you exactly saying?
That Wing Chun Only works in a real situation and only works if you are really in trouble and want to hurt somebody??

09-09-2000, 08:34 PM
Mark, that's basically what I'm saying. Think of it this way:

A Wing Chun practicioner is like a dinosaur. If trouble comes, he can stomp on that trouble, and destroy it if he needs to. This is the purpose of the martial art. However, if trouble comes that he needs to get rid of without just stomping on it and killing it, the techniques are a bit too devastating to tone down in order to still dominate the fight. This is where Chin Na comes in handy.

I'm not criticizing Wing Chun at all.. I'm a Wing Chun practicioner, after all.

09-10-2000, 01:15 AM
Basically you are advocating winning by submission rather than KO. I would agree that this is the PREFERABLE route - as it is more merciful, cleaner and can be less damaging to BOTH sides. The harder and more times you strike someone, the more chance you have of hurting yourself, especially if you hit their skull or elbows. You don't have that problem with a submission hold, choke or lock - IF you can get it... This has been demonstrated repeatedly in the UFCs.

09-10-2000, 02:33 AM
Yes =) Though there is a time for extreme force, and a time for subdueing. If someone tries to mug me, or threatens my family; you can bet I'm going to use the strongest force I can possibly use. People will just have to call him "lefty" the rest of his life.


09-10-2000, 06:58 AM
i am sorry scott & origenx but i have to disagree at no time(unless you do security, where it may be advisable to restrain someone for legal reasons)should you enter a confrontation thinking that all you need do, for whatever reason, is control an opponent.
you have no idea of his/her capabilities & therefore you should dispatch of them without mercy in the shortest time possible, if you do not & you underestimate them it will be you on the recieving end of a good flogging.
to my understanding wing chun does have holds, but are applied for only the shortest time possible while you move to the next striking technic.(i know there are many branches of wing chun which will include holds & chin na but our lineage is not one-
i just wanted to piont out why you should never enter a fight thinking you can control the opponent with holds)
i am sorry if my way of thinking differs from yours but you were right in saying that wing chun is a brutal art & i just can't see why you would want to tame it down.to me it's like owning a muscle V8 & wanting to tone it down to a 4 cylinder sometimes for practicallity, to me that just seems a waste.

09-10-2000, 07:05 AM

I would agree. With a total stranger on the street in an altercation I would disable him as quickly and as violently as necessary in order for me to escape immediately. However in certain cases ie drunk friends...etc... I would advocate submission.

09-10-2000, 07:42 AM
VingTsunStudent, those 'really fast holds' you were talking about are called "trapping," something Wing Chun is reknowned for as a martial art.

I have to disagree. If you study Chin Na, the arm holds are very powerful, and once you do get someone in a lock; you are in a position where you can quickly kill them if need be. If not kill, then other devastating attacks that will end an attack even on the most drugged up body builder (Breaking the arm at the elbow and shoulder. Even if the pain doesn't stop him, you should be able to handle a one armed man.) If you are being attacked by an unknown attacker, I say use deadly force. If you know your opponent and the risk involved, then Chin Na or other non permenantely damaging techniques. Remember, Wing Chun was made to quickly kill or maim/disable soldiers. It doesn't really take into consideration the fact that you may not want to seriously harm your opponent. However, modern day must be more flexible than brute force.

Another note.. Imagine how fun it would be being a bouncer or something and using Chin Na on people. The arm bars and wrist locks and even finger locks would work great =) And no serious harm done.

However, VingTsunStudent, perhaps you should look at the mechanics of a Chin Na lock before you make a judgement. The basis of a lock is that your opponent CANNOT move without breaking the section of the body which you are holding. I personally do not think it is possible to purposefully break your arm or leg or wrist or whatever to free yourself from a lock, but if it is... All the better. Saying that you don't know if your opponent is incapable to lock is as true as saying you don't know if your opponent is capable of being hit. In many cases, locking and holds and throws are better. (Primarily against opponents with a severe height advantage.) Most holds are locks in Chin Na are done with the arms, but most strikes in Wing Chun are done to the face. You can see the disadvantage and advantages of using Chin Na. Then again, against an opponent who is *huge* (muscle bulk) Chin Ne can be expected to be less effective. It is your call in the end, because Wing Chun can get you out most 99% of hte tough situations out there; but the extra flexibility is very nice to have.

- Scott.

09-10-2000, 08:06 AM
i am sorry if i offended you in any way scott
but i did not pass judgement on chin na as it is not my field of expertise, i was however just saying what i thought wc was about.
i was a bouncer for several years & on many occasions had to choke & restrain people,so i do know that wc as it is meant to be used is not always the viable option.
i will disagee though in you saying it could be as easy to lock someone as it is to hit them.
but again that is just my opinion as to you have given yours.

09-10-2000, 10:42 PM
vingtsun - actually, you can typically inflict ALOT more pain with holds, chokes and locks than strikes. It's much easier to break a pencil by grabbing both ends vs just sticking one end in something and chopping it. You have a lot more control too, and can bring it right to the breaking point, or past if need be. An perhaps most importantly, you don't hurt yourself in the process! Like I said, remember, the harder you hit someone, the harder you also hurt yourself if you happen to catch his skull or elbow or other hard bony part! Ever kick someone and get blocked by an elbow? OWWW!!!

But like I said, we're talking preferences here. But of course you not always have that choice.

I might agree that chin na is harder to set on larger folks with bigger arms and joints. It works once you got them in there, but it just seems a lot harder to get them in there. But, then again I guess striking is probably also less effective on big guys too...

09-10-2000, 11:30 PM

Just a note since there seems to be a focus on the size being an issue;

Chin Na can be applied in various stages. For example you can lock the shoulder which will require a little more strength/skill than to lock the elbow which requires a little more than to lock the wrist and even more than to lock the fingers. What I am getting at is that there is always an option regardless of the size of the opponent. You can apply finger Chin Na to a very large person and, if done properly, bring him to his kness with very little effort. Too many times one gets caught in the focus of the arms etec as they seem the most common. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

One method I have liked to employ is to give something for the opponent to react to and then apply the lock, if I so choose. I would caution that when one opts to apply a lock or control then one is showing mercy and you should be sure of your skill. It is easier to strike than to lock, most times. Still, as a former Police Officer I often did not have the luxury of striking my opponent.

Again, I would like to point out that Wing Chun has plenty of Chin Na to be found within the system. All one needs to do is open ones eyes.



09-12-2000, 04:21 AM
I just started learning Wuh Lum Kung Fu and was wondering the difference in the styles. I have been noticing that Wing Chun is more about getting the fight over with, well what is northern praying manits about?

Remember I am taking Master Chan's classes at the Orlando temple.

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Sandman2[Wing Chun]
09-12-2000, 07:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by adam:
I just started learning Wuh Lum Kung Fu and was wondering the difference in the styles. I have been noticing that Wing Chun is more about getting the fight over with, well what is northern praying manits about?

Well, Northern Mantis is also about finishing the fight as quickly as possible. The question, however, does arise as to wether or not that is what Wah Lum is about. I'm not trying to knock anyone, but I've known a couple of guys who had taken wah lum for more than 4+ years, who quit to study mantis under other sifus. In both cases, the individuals in question left because they felt the focus of Wah Lum had moved away from usefull combat applications of praying mantis, to mostly just doing forms, and then a little free sparring in a kickboxing way. I know alot of people that do 7 star, and let me tell you, when they fight it doesn't even look like kickboxing at all. One of them, who had been an instructor there, mostly complained about the fact that he thought wah lum did have fighting applications originally, but that the organization had been moving the curriculum away from that, and to more sport/tournament use. Which is fine, depending on what you want from your art. Anyway, hope this is helpfull.

Sandman[Wing Chun]