ATTN Ray

[SevenStar]

Is this the same style you do?

http://www.cfwenterprises.com/article.asp?s=cfw&content_id=3000

[Ray Pina]

No, but I get that a lot.

That's I-Chuan. It's founder studied Hsing-I.

My master teaches E-Chuan. He studied Hsing-I with Master Sau (China's head coach when they came over to visit Nixon, Jet Li was on this team) as well as Ba Gua with grandmaster Wang, who is the 3rd generation from the founder.

These two men are known. But it's a grandmaster Lui, a pole master, and a book from Wu Shu Ling, that my master highly praises for influencing his thinking.

As for I-Chuan, I hear those guys can fight. And from what I've seen of it, the training seems sound if the guys train right and have the balls to go fight.

[Ford Prefect]

I have a pretty cool pdf file that is a rip from some magazine. If I remember correctly, it's about 5 pages long (with pictures) and compares I-Chuan with western boxing both in technique and training methods. Coming from a boxing background, I found it interesting. I'll see if I can scare it up.

[Ford Prefect]

Wow. My bad. It was actually a comparison of Xing Yi and Western Boxing. It's a 12-page article, and I have each page in jpg format. Each page is about 300k, so they are too large to upload here. I'll e-mail them to one person who can host them if there is any interest.

[Ford Prefect]

I just re-read it. It's not half bad and certainly one of the lesser-biased comparisons you'll see out there. The author actually realizes that boxing focusses on a relaxed, full-body power generated from the feet up with particular emphasis on the hips rather than a lot of misconceptions I see on here a lot. The author is a Robert Lin-Yi Yu who trained with a Master Hong Yixiang in Taipei from 1969 - ?.

The final pages are a pictorial comparison of the western boxing jab, cross, hook, and uppercut with their Xing Yi/Hsing-I counterparts.

[SevenStar]

that's a good article - It was posted here before, but I can't remember if it was by you, or chris mckinley.

[Ray Pina]

I don't have the ability to host it but would love to see it.

I watched a Friday night fights two weeks ago and there was this young black/hispanic kid fighting a first time pro 30 year old black man. The kid fought so wonderfully. He did a great job of covering up the first round and then unleashed these short but powerful uppercuts, his elbow traveling from the 6 o'clock position to the 8 o'clock position at the most. Smooth and relaxed hitting..... it was stopped early in the second round.

I know my teacher would have liked that. Smooth, controlled counter shots .... but not that I'm using the word "counter."

[Ford Prefect]

Senev*, I can't remember where I got it. I know I've had it for a while though. It's from a JAMA issue in November 2001.

Ray, We already have a volunteer for hosting, so I expect it to be up relatively soon. That's how boxing technique is supposed to look. A lot of guys now rely on their athletic talent and mobility so much, that they have quick hands and can recover from sloppy punches or they are quick and can dance out of the way of a counter. We were always taught elbows in, chin down, stick and move, hands up... If any wild, looping punches were thrown in sparring or drills, our coach would stop the action immediately, get everybody's attention, and humiliate whoever had done it. It wasn't the most PC thing to do, but it kept all the beginners constantly aware of their technique which just becomes a habit after a while.

[Ray Pina]

Yea, the best training is rarely PC. If a coach doesn't let me have it every once in a while I'd think he's losing interest in teaching me right. :)

I was so stoked to see that kid fight though. Good stuff just jumps out. And I know folks argue that punching is punching, but his punching was excellent.

[Merryprankster]

And I know folks argue that punching is punching, but his punching was excellent.

Well, I personally argue that GOOD punching is good punching.
There's all kinds of bad punching!

I agree with Ford - and I think a lot of guys are getting away with very bad habits. I remember somebody once saying "Would you rather learn from Roy Jones Jr, or (random local boxing instructor)."

It was a no brainer for me - the local guy. Roy does so many things fundamentally wrong that he can get away with because he's a phenomenal athlete. Give me Toney or Larry Holmes any time....

[SevenStar]

this isn't it, but it's the same topic:

http://www.metal-tiger.com/F&LText.html

[Ray Pina]

That was great, thanks.

One thing did make me go, "hhhmmmmm" though. I'm surprised that Mr. Allen is still talking about walking around someone ..... my experience is that Ba Gua gets behind you, but not from walking around. If you can simply circle around another fighter he's not that good.

I also think he gives a few unneeded passive digs to UFC and Vale Tudo .... but what can ya do? And the punching to the body as a choice over the head .... I mean, I understand hitting the body, but choosing it as a target over the head I don't get. To me: jaw/neck, collar bone, sternum, ribs, body ..... in that order.

What's your take?

[SevenStar]

That was great, thanks.

One thing did make me go, "hhhmmmmm" though. I'm surprised that Mr. Allen is still talking about walking around someone ..... my experience is that Ba Gua gets behind you, but not from walking around. If you can simply circle around another fighter he's not that good.

I also think he gives a few unneeded passive digs to UFC and Vale Tudo .... but what can ya do? And the punching to the body as a choice over the head .... I mean, I understand hitting the body, but choosing it as a target over the head I don't get. To me: jaw/neck, collar bone, sternum, ribs, body ..... in that order.

What's your take?


I actually don't have a take - I haven't read it. It came up when I googled it, and I noticed the workd I was looking for. However, I do agree - if he can just circle around an opponent, then the opponent is not that good.

As for the targets - the thing about body shots is that most people underestimate them. A good shot to the liver will drop you just as fast as a hook to the jaw...maybe faster. people get caught up in headhunting and completely forget about the body. in the list that you have, I would place liver (body) directly under jaw.

[Ray Pina]

So, when striking the liver, what's your target, left of the guys center line (his right) between the chest and belly button but favering a little high?

What should I expect when I hit that with a good uppercut or heal of the palm?

[SevenStar]

intense pain and cramping. naturally, the immediate effect will vary depending on the opponent - some will drop, some will immensely slow down. De la hoya lost his last fight to this punch, and Chavez is famous for his liver punches.

[Ray Pina]

Is my targeting right? Is it behind the right floating ribs or below that?

[MasterKiller]

http://www.livertransplant.org/graphics/body-after-1.jpg

[Ray Pina]

creating a wedge/triangle "defense", sort of disrupting an attack, taking the guys shot on the upper forearm/elbow zone while simultaneously nailing him with the mid/lower forearm/hands

.... that sounds like good technique :)

[SevenStar]

uh, just a thought guys - before you actually do anything to the liver, you have to go through the costal musculature, the abdominal obliques, the ribs themselves and the respiratory diaphragm; second, the aforementioned cramping would more likely be caused by the trauma to these muscles and/or the intercostal nerves/blod vessels: especially with repeated blows, you'll get interruption of local blood suply, which can cause cramping as well...; also, if you really are damaging the liver, I don't think the symptoms would be as immediate, as there is no contractile/neural tissue in the liver per se; incidently, liver tissue is actually rather friable (actual medical term) - meaning that if you cause damage to it, it sort of tends to disintegrate...anyway, just to be sure, I'm gonna check with the wife (surgeon) when she gets home off call tomorrow and see what she thinks about what symptoms you'd get from blunt trauma to the liver...
also, remember that there is significant anatomical variation in many people, so trying to get the liver via using the same external landmarks on different people will yield very different results...
just some ideas...

Well, whatever it is that you actually hit causes people to drop. It's called a liver punch - who knows, maybe because you are striking in the vicinity of it - but it's damm effective.