How do you increase your strength, but not your size..?

[hazhardy]

how do you increase your strength, but not your size??
for example, i want to get stronger with this routine i am to start this summer, however, i do not want a big, awkward chest, yet i am going to be using weights..... have any solutions??
would the key to be to reduce work out times and avoid bench presses to get strength but not size,, sort of like master Bruce?

Also, what exercise are there for increasing your punching power and what muscle groups are used? ( i know it's more technique, but technique with power is to be desired) are lats and those muscles that you see boxers have, that outline the ribcage from a side view important??

thanks for your help

the hza

[Chief Fox]

It's funny that people think that the moment they pick up a weight that they will magically increase in size. Increasing your muscle mass takes a lot of hard work and dedication and is anything but easy. Not only do you have to lift A LOT but you have to eat A LOT in order to increase size. So by simply starting a weight lifting routine you will not gain a significant amount of size so I wouldn't worry about it.

Muscle groups to work on for punching power are chest, shoulders and back as well as your abs and lower back. BUT all the power in the world will not make you a powerful puncher if you have bad form or technique. So the best way to become a powerful puncher is to punch something like a heavy bag. Remember to wrap your wrists.

[Ford Prefect]

These would be the primary factors.

1) High intensity/%1RM (ie 1-5 reps)
2) Low Volume (2-5 sets; 2-3 exercises/day)
3) Long Rest Periods (3-5 minutes rest between each set)

Now the frequency (amount of workouts/week) depends on the periodization/loading scheme you are using. If you want to consistently work near your max for each lift (ie if you are doing 3 reps, you use a weight that you could only do 3 reps with), then you will have to 1-2 workouts each done 1-2x/weekly. If you want to cycle poundages, you can do less sets/day but 5+ workouts/week.

The cool thing about just working for strength and not size is that you don't need to lift to your max every time out. A lot of the gains made are neurological in nature. This means that the neuro-pathways (the way the signal for that exercise travels your nervous system) become more engrained and effecient. This will allow you to not only use a larger percentage of your potential muscular force, but the movement will be more refined.

Just think of when you first started MA. Some of the moves were ackward, but as you practiced them, you were able to perform them more easily and more gracefully. The same thing goes for lifting weights. The more you do it, the better you'll be able to perform the lift.

That said, you can cycle your pundages. You can lift at or close to your max for a week, and then cycle down and use a lighter weight the next week but use the same amounts of reps. This cycling of the weight is called periodizating. A popular periodization is a step-cycle made famous by Pavel Tsatsouline. It looks as follows:

1) Workout Mon-Fri
2) Do Deadlift, Bench Press, and Weighted-pullups every day for 2 sets of 5 each.
3) Find your 5RM (5 rep max) and subtract 45 lbs from the pull-ups and bench, and 90 lbs from the deadlift. Your first workout will be at these poundages. The next day you add 5 lbs to your bench and pull-ups & 10 lbs to your deadlift. Do this for two weeks and the final workout you should be lifting for a new 5RM in each lift. Then repeat this cycle using the new 5RM to subtract from. Theoretically, you will be hitting a new max every two weeks while gaining no weight or a minimal amount.

----------

There is another thing called post-tentactic facillitation, which primes the nervous system to lift more. You start a 4-5RM, rest, then do your 1RM, rest, and you should be able to do a new 4-5RM, rest, and then you should be able to do a new 1RM. This is a lot more intense in nature, so you need to pick a few different exercises and split them into 3 workouts. Do a workout every other day. (ie Workout 1, Rest day, Workout 2, Rest day, Wrokout 3, Rest day, Repeat) Since this is more intense, you can only remain on such a program for a month or so before needing to mix it up again.

The options really are limitless. This is not even taking into account that unless you are a genetic mutant, then you will need a very specific diet in order to gain large amounts of mass. The lifting I'm talking about is just more geared to gaining strength without size, but really, unless you eat for it, anything you do won't put much mass on you.

Just do some reading at places like:

http://www.crossfit.com
http://www.dragondoor.com

for workout ideas. If you don't really have any desire to read much about this stuff at all, then you'd be best served doing the crossfit.com "workouts of the day" If your gym has minimal equipment or you have minimal daily time, then buy Pavel's "Power to the People" at Dragondoor.com and do that workout.

They are some of the better cookie-cutter type of things out there.

[ewallace]

You should save that last post to a text file or word doc. I have a feeling it will need to be posted again. And again and again. :)

[red5angel]

Hey ford I've always been under the impression that the long wait between reps actually helps you to bulk up?

[SevenStar]

[B] would the key to be to reduce work out times and avoid bench presses to get strength but not size,, sort of like master Bruce?



why do you think avoiding the bench press would help to reduce your size gains?

[SevenStar]

Hey ford I've always been under the impression that the long wait between reps actually helps you to bulk up?


The long rest provides time to recover. We are talking maximal poundages in this workout. If I do a set o5 5 with 280, I'm not going to be able to do another set like that with only a 60 second rest. The shorter rest period leads to faster buildup of lactic acid, which = soreness... not what we're after. Short rest periods promote muscular endurance.

[Ford Prefect]

Ewallace, I gave up on it. I'm too long winded for my own good. I figured I was saying too much, so cut it short. :)

Red, Nope. The majority in size gains from "bulking up" come from a mechanism known as sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. This is an increase in a jelly-like filler of the muscle that has little to do with contracting. What it has to do with is storing muscle glycogen which is what powers the muscle when ATP resevoirs are dry (generally 10 seconds into an intense exercise) The body then converts this glycogen into ATP through chemical processes. The longer your sets (ie the higher reps you use in a reasonable intensity 7-20) and the shorter the rest periods, then the more this sarcoplasm will be strained to keep up with energy demands. The muscle will adapt to this stimulus by doing what it can to make sure it has more energy next time, thus it creates more sarcoplasm.

Albeit, this isn't the most scientific explanation, but I think it gets the point across. The longer you rest, the longer your body has time to replinish it's ATP resevoir, so the less likely it'll be to dip into muscle glycogen. Likewise, the higher intensity you use (ie 1-4 reps), the less likely you'll be to lift long enough to severly tax this system either.

---------------------

Side note: This is where creatine comes in. The first system used in power anything including muscle is the phosphagen system. Every muscle has a resevoir of ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate - Spelling may be off) which gives it energy to contract. This is quickly used up, but the by-product of it is ADP (Adenosine Diphosphate). This ADP will then combine with creatine phosphate found in all skeletal muscle to create more ATP. Again, this is short lived and it all happens generally in 10 seconds. Creatine supplementation should increase your skeletal muscle's creatine stores, thus allowing you to prolong this a bit. All creatine does is allow you to work a little harder for a little longer. This should translate into gains.

The Glycolytic energy system comes into play when the phosphagen is exhausted. This is when glycogen undergoes chemical reactions to become ATP. The by-rpoduct of this is lactic acid which gives you the oh so familiar "burning" feeling when you are close to failure. That's due to lactic acid build up.

The above two energy systems are your anaerobic energy systems. I know that term gets thrown around and some may not know what it actually means. Since those above two create ATP without oxygen, they are anaerobic. These are used for things like sprinting, weight lifting, bursts of speed, etc.

The "aerobic" energy system and hence where the term "aerobics" comes from is the oxidative energy system. This uses oxygen supplied by blood, which then undergoes chemical reactions to be turned into ATP in order to power muscle contractions. The nature of the reactions and the amount of oxygen being delivered makes is so that these contractions can not be very intense. This is the energy system used in long duration events like running a mile+, biking, swimming, etc.

Anyhoo, I'm all typed out for the day. I'll give it a rest for a month or two. :) No long posts.

[rubthebuddha]

ford has wined, dined and sixty-neenered the correct so completely that it became clingy, causing ford not to return its phone calls.




on a serious note, ford is spot on. this helps show you why a bit of research can be helpful, but a lot can really be good for you. do a buncha reading each day or so on this stuff. read the sticky thread at the top of this thread, and read the links within. if you want more, maybe try t-mag (http://www.t-nation.com/) for some good reading. ignore the sales pitches, and you'll find some really good material. :)

[stricker]

Hey Ford, thanks for those posts, you explained it really clearly. I'm just starting out learning a little about how training the body works... i've got a bad case of the DOMS at the moment from mma class. We did 5 minutes of hop-hop-hop-squat hop-hop-hop-squat at the end of class that pushed me over the edge now it hurts walking down the stairs! Anyone got any good prevention tips, or what is it about certain kinds of exercise some cause soreness but others don't??

[fa_jing]

to prevent this, attend your class for a year and repeat the workout. Hi rep endurance work is pretty painful, but so is any work in a fatigued state. Also, new workout protocols tend to cause soreness. For instance, if you haven't lifted heavy in a while, and you lift heavy for just a few reps, you will get sore. If you haven't lifted for endurance for a while, and you lift for endurance, you will get sore.

[Ford Prefect]

Fa jing is pretty much correct. If you regularly attend class or do similar work your body will adapt to that. Then it will take a much more intense workout to cause DOMS.

Ways to prevent DOMS itself is to cool-down after an intense workout, stretch after a workout, practice hot-cold contract showers or baths, ice massage, concentric only work, and stretch combined with massage. The exact cause of DOMS is still a bone of contention in the scientific community. The larger amount of stress is placed while the muscle is stretching under a load though (eccentric/lowering portion of the lift). Doing light concentric only actions the day after a wrokout, you pump blood through the muscle which will help flush out any toxins. A popular method is to use a pulling sled since you can perform a concentric actions, walk forward, repeat... There is not eccentric action at all. Another way is to use very low-intensity calesthenics. For example after a heavy bench workout, you may do some push-ups later in the day or the next day just to get blood flowing to that region.

All the rest of the methods I mentioned focus on the same principles:

-Cool-down: A low-intensity exercise will get blood flowing to that region...
-Stretch: Lengthens the muscle to preventing cramping or tightening which would trap toxins
-Hot-Cold Contrasting: Cold pushes blood deep into the muscle while hot brings it to the surface. In essense you are pumping blood through the muscle and clearing it of toxins.
-Ice Massage: Massage loosens the muscle and increases circulation while the ice forces blood deeper inside muscle.
-Massage with stretch: Same as stretch, but massage helps circulation

While DOMS may not always be avoidable, using such methods will help limit duration and intensity of it.

[stricker]

that's cool thanks guys - i googled a little and came up with pretty much the same stuff, again you layed it out really clearly that's great. I thought there might be something about the number of reps or duration and intensity that caused it more than anything else. I'm fine with bw squats normally, i do them pretty slowly as more of a mechanics thing. The mma coach seems to come up with a different way to kill me every time usually the last 5 minutes or so of class is something like that or press-up sit-up pyramids, or loads of sprawls or something, but it's rarely the same. Yeah i guess just stick with it and i'll adapt.

[hazhardy]

cheers for all that info dudes, has helped alot,,,

[unkokusai]

how do you increase your strength, but not your size??
for example, i want to get stronger with this routine i am to start this summer, however, i do not want a big, awkward chest, yet i am going to be using weights..... have any solutions??


What makes you think that if your chest gets bigger that is "awkward"?

[Vasquez]

plenty of high rep endurence type training.

[bsaizan]

If you want to get stronger without gaining size I would suggest doing mass pushups, pullups, dips, ect.. Workouts that dont require lifting another object other than your body. A good example would be my friend in highschool who would always do mass pushups in the school weight room with boxes. At the same time the baseball and football teams would be in there benching their hearts out and other things. After a few months my 115 lb friend benched 205 lbs 5 or 6 times to the shock of the gym. All of this just off of pushups, which did give his chest some good size, however not compared to benching workouts.

[Mr Punch]

Or you could just ignore the last two posts and follow Ford's advice. ;)

[Ho Chun]

[QUOTE=hazhardy]how do you increase your strength, but not your size??

If you are looking to increase strength, and you want to make these gains in strength to enhance your martial arts, then you need to do exercises that are going to give you strength for a particular movement. I ask...what martial art technique does bench pressing enhance? Pushing someone??
I don't mean to tick anyone off, I just do not understand the concept of lifting weights.


Also, what exercise are there for increasing your punching power and what muscle groups are used?

http://www.noweightsworkout.com/exercises/armgrabs.php This exercise alone will double your punching power.

[IronFist]

A good example would be my friend in highschool who would always do mass pushups in the school weight room with boxes.After a few months my 115 lb friend benched 205 lbs 5 or 6 times to the shock of the gym. All of this just off of pushups, which did give his chest some good size, however not compared to benching workouts.

BS. High rep and/or low weight training absolutely does not build raw strength, and to say it does goes against every proven theory in physiology.

(unless you mean he did 205 on a chest press machine or something which is completely different from benching 205)

[IronFist]

[QUOTE=hazhardy]http://www.noweightsworkout.com/exercises/armgrabs.php This exercise alone will double your punching power.

That looks similar to Green Dragon's Snake Turns Over exercise.

[FooFighter]

Ford gave solid advice as usually and please listen to his comments. I do not need to add anything to this except there is a difference in neuromuscular strength which is skill specific (yes, strength is a skill) and muscular strength which is based on the anaerobic or aerobic energy systems. If you go to your local library or google it, you will find plenty of intel. Best of luck with your training.

Yours in Strength,
Bao Tran

[FngSaiYuk]

If you want to get stronger without gaining size I would suggest doing mass pushups, pullups, dips, ect.. Workouts that dont require lifting another object other than your body. A good example would be my friend in highschool who would always do mass pushups in the school weight room with boxes. At the same time the baseball and football teams would be in there benching their hearts out and other things. After a few months my 115 lb friend benched 205 lbs 5 or 6 times to the shock of the gym. All of this just off of pushups, which did give his chest some good size, however not compared to benching workouts.

I wouldn't go by highschool anecdotes to design a performance program. There are many differences between highschool age and physical maturity. It's silly to disregard scientific research based on, 'well I remember this one guy in highschool ... '. And becnching 205 @ 115 is not anything unique. I did the same when I wrestled at 105 - my upperbody was FAR more developed than my lower.

Search through the forums for previous threads, go through the links in the sticky at the top of the forum, google for real scientifically backed programs. If you can't explain WHY you should be doing something a certain way in detail, then you really don't know if that's the BEST way of doing something.

[Vasquez]

BS. High rep and/or low weight training absolutely does not build raw strength, and to say it does goes against every proven theory in physiology.

(unless you mean he did 205 on a chest press machine or something which is completely different from benching 205)

of course it builds raw strength. just look at the marathon runners they can go on for days. Too much bulk and you'l slow down.

[Mr Punch]

Oh sweet Mary mother of little baby Jesus

it's ****ing groundhog day!

[Ralphie]

of course it builds raw strength. just look at the marathon runners they can go on for days. Too much bulk and you'l slow down.

just do forms. you don't need to ever spar live against a resisting opponent to know how to fight, but point sparring is worth while. horse stance is an effective defense against a take down. biting and eye poking are effective defenses against ground fighters. you can stop someone's heart with a chi blast after my $1000/day seminar on dim mak. marathon runners are the ideal athlete to emulate for a martial artist. basing your workout on stories of "the push up kid" is a good idea and sound advice (as opposed to someone who gives you a detailed introduction to weight lifting that is researchable). cult like kung fu clubs that are too deadly for the ring, and avoid interraction with other martial arts communities are generally looking out for you, and not trying to take your money and control you.

[IronFist]

of course it builds raw strength. just look at the marathon runners they can go on for days. Too much bulk and you'l slow down.

That's not raw strength. That's endurance. Raw strength refers to the amount of tension your muscles can generate. Squatting 500lbs once requires raw strength. Running a marathon does not.

So what I was saying before, using weights that are light (relative to your own level of strength) and doing high reps (because if you can do high reps, then the weights are light) does not build raw strength on a neurological or physical level.

[Vasquez]

That's not raw strength. That's endurance. Raw strength refers to the amount of tension your muscles can generate. Squatting 500lbs once requires raw strength. Running a marathon does not.

So what I was saying before, using weights that are light (relative to your own level of strength) and doing high reps (because if you can do high reps, then the weights are light) does not build raw strength on a neurological or physical level.

you can't move smoothly with tension in your muscles. it goes agaisnt tcma practice.

[Ralphie]

you can't move smoothly with tension in your muscles. it goes agaisnt tcma practice.

-1.5 on the traditional troll meter

[SevenStar]

of course it builds raw strength. just look at the marathon runners they can go on for days. Too much bulk and you'l slow down.


WTF?? You guys musta learned from the "abridged" book of fitness training...


some of you really are clueless...

[Vasquez]

WTF?? You guys musta learned from the "abridged" book of fitness training...


some of you really are clueless...

what about body builders. Less extreme case, people who play gridiron, they have huge necks and shoulders tell me if this doesn't affect mobility.

[Ford Prefect]

Bodybuilders are an extreme case. They don't train to be athletic. They train to look big; that's it.

Football players are some of the most athletic people on this planet... Speed and mobility is the name of the game. I think they are a case of how you can be massive and not only retain but use that extra strength to add to your natural athletic ability.

[Vasquez]

Bodybuilders are an extreme case. They don't train to be athletic. They train to look big; that's it.

Football players are some of the most athletic people on this planet... Speed and mobility is the name of the game. I think they are a case of how you can be massive and not only retain but use that extra strength to add to your natural athletic ability.

footballers are no were as athelethic as gymnist.

[hazhardy]

Er the reason i said earlier about having an ''awkward'' chest?? It's because i study wing chun kung fu and if i have a large chest, it then becomes in the way of certain techniques such as lap sao and fat sao etc,,, do you see what i mean? if i have a large chest, then it is obstructing my movement of my inner arm, and i will therefore have to move around my chest with my arm,,,,,and so if benching increases chest size,, then i dnt really want that now do i....... :cool:

would any of you guys have changed your advice given to me of workouts if you knew i was 15 years old (16 this summer, and already larger than most people my age) ?? does that effect anything?
thanks ,
hza

[FatherDog]

footballers are no were as athelethic as gymnist.

http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/publications/technique/1996/8/strength-training.html

Gymnasts lift heavy weights as part of their training.

[Merryprankster]

footballers are no were as athelethic as gymnist.

OMIGAWD!

BWAAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

*wipes tears off face*

It's called sports specificity. A gymnast trains to do one thing. A football player trains to do another.

Shockingly, you get good at what you train at.

Let me give you an example. Olympic weightlifters have the fastest 5 and 10m sprint times in the world. Why? because they are trained to explode, and your power generation is crucial to Olympic style lifting.

Sounds pretty athletic to me. Not to mention the insane flexibility, balance and core strength and ABILITY TO RELAX you have to have to do that stuff well.

So much for tension.

Can they run a marathon? No.

But a marathon runner can't lift 2.5 times their bodyweight over their head either.

Getting into arguments about "who is more athletic" by way of sport is absurd.

[fa_jing]

Gymnasts have big chests, shoulders, and neck.

Emin Boztepe has a "big" chest. William Cheung had a "big" chest. Not as big as a lineman, but alot bigger than yours. Didn't get in the way of their Wing Chun! As long as you keep up all your flexibility exercises you'll be fine. Call us when you are benching over 315 pounds and maybe we'll talk about stopping muscles from growing due to exercise.

[WinterPalm]

I think that the tension thing is definately important. However, I have done bodyweight exercises, such as high rep dips, and gotten very tense and sore. I have gotten the same feeling from weights as well. If I were to spar or train right after this I would be slower than usual and probably lacking power due to the residual tension. But to say that these exercises in moderation will produce some sort of huge chest that cannot move, then no, I don't agree with that. I do feel that many people train strength to the neglect of other much more important things but to each his own. However, if you are unable to "fit" into wing chun, perhaps it is time to find something else. I don't think every martial art is for everyone, otherwise we'd have only one style or approach. If you aren't comfortable with the style you do, and you have not done other things in your life to aggrevate this, then you should probably find something else.

As to building martial art specific strength. I think hitting the heavy bag is pretty good and so is refined technique practice. Many people exert way too much unnecessary force when they spar or fight and with a refinement and a conditioning to the demands of fighting, you will be much more relaxed and the power will come through this. If you are talking about max weight 1RM, then I believe others have covered that...

[IronFist]

Let me give you an example. Olympic weightlifters have the fastest 5 and 10m sprint times in the world.


They did some research on this over at dragondoor. Apparently, this was first mentioned in some book a while ago, but no one could find where the author got his stats, and they tried to contact him or something but he couldn't be reached. Apparently, there is no source as to where that stat came from

On a related note, tho, I've seen pics of Olympic lifters in mid air from HUGE vertical jumps. Same principle.

To all you anti-muslcle people, trained athletes can contract and relax their muscles faster than regular people. Even tho it's already been said, big muscles don't equal being tense.

And you have to get pretty freaking big before it would interefere with your mobility. The only way that's going to happen is if you train a specific way, eat a specific way, use the right drugs, and happen to have been born with the genetics to even get that big in the first place. Look at all the people in the gym who have been trying to "get huge" for years and are still small. It doesn't just happen when you start lifting weights.

[IronFist]

Let me give you an example. Olympic weightlifters have the fastest 5 and 10m sprint times in the world.


They did some research on this over at dragondoor. Apparently, this was first mentioned in some book a while ago, but no one could find where the author got his stats, and they tried to contact him or something but he couldn't be reached. Apparently, there is no source as to where that stat came from

On a related note, tho, I've seen pics of Olympic lifters in mid air from HUGE vertical jumps. Same principle.

To all you anti-muslcle people, trained athletes can contract and relax their muscles faster than regular people. Even tho it's already been said, big muscles don't equal being tense.

And you have to get pretty freaking big before it would interefere with your mobility. The only way that's going to happen is if you train a specific way, eat a specific way, use the right drugs, and happen to have been born with the genetics to even get that big in the first place. Look at all the people in the gym who have been trying to "get huge" for years and are still small. It doesn't just happen when you start lifting weights.

[David Jamieson]

I always understood it to be...and these are the simplest of terms:

More repititions, less weight = strength and tone.

Less repititions, more weight = strength and size increase.

In weight lifting you use fast twitch muscles to lift.
You use slow twitch muscles to endure.

Your shape will change but you can avoid getting larger...but being large and having good muscularity really has no play on your flexibility or anything else.

wehn training hard, you are bound to get tired and sore, but after a relatively short break and with maintenance of stretching, you'll be fine.

That whole "big = tense" thing is utter nonsense.

Muhammed ali was a big guy with fairly good muscularity. He wasn't one iota tense.

also, take a look at some of the performance wrestling you see like the wwe. You think those guys are stiff and tense? They're freakin acrobats man.

anywho...just sayin

[SevenStar]

Er the reason i said earlier about having an ''awkward'' chest?? It's because i study wing chun kung fu and if i have a large chest, it then becomes in the way of certain techniques such as lap sao and fat sao etc,,, do you see what i mean? if i have a large chest, then it is obstructing my movement of my inner arm, and i will therefore have to move around my chest with my arm,,,,,and so if benching increases chest size,, then i dnt really want that now do i....... :cool:

would any of you guys have changed your advice given to me of workouts if you knew i was 15 years old (16 this summer, and already larger than most people my age) ?? does that effect anything?
thanks ,
hza


you don't have to worry about that. it's a well known myth that size limits mobility... unless you are absolutely hyoooge. like fa_jing said, keep stretching and you will be okay.

[Ford Prefect]

They did some research on this over at dragondoor. Apparently, this was first mentioned in some book a while ago, but no one could find where the author got his stats, and they tried to contact him or something but he couldn't be reached. Apparently, there is no source as to where that stat came from


That's surprising since dragondoor'ers generally have such a hard on for anything Russian related. I know I've read of the study or at least a similar one (I want to say it was from the Mexico City Olympics, but I'm not 100% sure) in one of Zatsiorsky's books. It could be the Science and Practice of Strength Training. I'm fairly certain he cites the exact data and even had graphs from the study showing disparity amung different events' athletes. I'd find it when I get home, but I'm in the middle of a move and all my books and manuals are still packed away in boxes.

David,

That more/less rep examples you gave are common misconceptions and are the polar opposite of the truth.

[Ford Prefect]

As for footballers vs gymnasts...

As FD already pointed out, elite-level gymnasts regularly lift heavy weights as part of their training. Also, you are too focussed on the external object of the "weight".

Q- What is the purpose of the weight or an external resistance implement?
A- To force the muscle to contract more forcefully.

Gymnastics strength moves take an enormous amount of muscular tension to complete. Just try doing an iron cross on the rings or a planche on the floor or parallelettes. Also, the force created during tumbling exercises causes extreme amounts of muscular tension as well.

If you are more interested in what you are doing to the muscle as opposed to the superficial looks of an exercise, then you'd realize that gymnastics is also a perfect case that high weight/high tension exercises can be implemented to add to one's athletic ability. Thanks for bringing that up.

As for who's more "athletic" depends on what you definition of "athletic' is. If you are talking about being able to sprint fast, jump high, and be highly agile while running at high speeds while making whole-body coordinated efforts to perform a motor task while avoiding other players then footballers are more athletic. If you are talking about a high degree of control in static positions or exercises and being able to tumble, then gymnasts are more "athletic".

[hazhardy]

i have also heard and read that isometric work is quick, easy and combined with a weights program is very effective (Bruce Lee),,, this produces raw power but also little muscle size increase correct?

[Ford Prefect]

Incorrect. Like isometrics, the effect lies in the implementation. It's all in how a muscle works and adapts to stimulus. When you understand that, you'll see that there are numerous paths to the same destination, but they all follow the same exact scientific principles.

Isometrics is a catch-all phrase for a muscular contraction against resistance in which the length of the muscle stays the same (ie... flexing, handstands, pushing against a doorway, etc)

The way you are effected by isometric training will depend on how you implement it. Just like "weight training" is a catch-all term and the effects of weight ttraining depend greatly on how you implement it (sets/reps/rest/intensity) and the exercises you choose.

Muscles aren't intelligent. They don't understand "Oh. He's doing a bench press with a barbell now" or "oh he's now doing a bodyweight exercise". All they understand is how hard and for how long they have to contract and how much energy that consumes, and then they adapt to suit those needs.

[Toby]

:D @ this thread! Some great stuff here.

[Vasquez]

Incorrect. Like isometrics, the effect lies in the implementation. It's all in how a muscle works and adapts to stimulus. When you understand that, you'll see that there are numerous paths to the same destination, but they all follow the same exact scientific principles.

Isometrics is a catch-all phrase for a muscular contraction against resistance in which the length of the muscle stays the same (ie... flexing, handstands, pushing against a doorway, etc)

The way you are effected by isometric training will depend on how you implement it. Just like "weight training" is a catch-all term and the effects of weight ttraining depend greatly on how you implement it (sets/reps/rest/intensity) and the exercises you choose.

Muscles aren't intelligent. They don't understand "Oh. He's doing a bench press with a barbell now" or "oh he's now doing a bodyweight exercise". All they understand is how hard and for how long they have to contract and how much energy that consumes, and then they adapt to suit those needs.

LOL muscles not intellegent. There's such a thing called muscle memory duh!!! How else do you do ma instinctively when you're not consiously thinking about it.

[Merryprankster]

Uhhhhhh..

Muscle memory is a neurological response.

Ford is talking about a physiological adaptation to stress over time.


Apples and oranges. Next.

[Vasquez]

Uhhhhhh..

Muscle memory is a neurological response.

Ford is talking about a physiological adaptation to stress over time.


Apples and oranges. Next.

nah your not thinking about it. LOL on neurological. My point being its physiological.

[Ford Prefect]

It's not physiological though unless you are talking about the synapses for that specific neuro-motor pathway hypertrophying due to frequent stimulation, which does occur and can be part of the neurological phenomena known as "muscle" memory.

[Merryprankster]

Thank you Ford.

As I said, Next.

Size is a PHYSIOLOGICAL phenomenon.

Muscle memory is NEUROLOGICAL.

Your brain cares what movement you are doing.

All the muscle knows is "Grok work hard to do heavy thing. Need get bigger."

[Neophyte]

Hi Ford

Im just starting out with incorporating weights into my training and found your post really helpful. Just got a quick question.

Between your sets of weights when your taking the 3-5 minutes rest would this be complete rest or could you also perform some stretching of the muscles that you've just worked ?

Thanks

[Ford Prefect]

Hey Neophyte,

Glad I could help. The rest is complete rest from any exercise. Stretching is fine though. In fact, both Soviet and American research shows that loaded passive stretching between sets of intense weight lifting can actually increase the strength you have in your next set due do various neurological phenomena.

An example of this would be after you finish your set of bench press, grab a couple 5 lbs dumbbells, lay down on the bench, extend your arms all the way out to your sides like the bottom portion of a dumbbell fly, and let the weight sink your arms lower stretching out your chest. That's an example of loaded passive stretching. Basically it's a stretch where you let an external weight or your body weight deepen the stretch.

[Neophyte]

Thanks Ford

Thats quite interesting. I'm going to give that a try.

Cheers

[IronFist]

Neophyte, be gentle with it, tho. A gentle stretch with 2.5 or 5lb weights like Ford described is good. Trying to force something with a "more is better" attitude is bad. It's not another exercise, it's a stretch.

[Vasquez]

Thank you Ford.

As I said, Next.

Size is a PHYSIOLOGICAL phenomenon.

Muscle memory is NEUROLOGICAL.

Your brain cares what movement you are doing.

All the muscle knows is "Grok work hard to do heavy thing. Need get bigger."

thanks for that, I'm training to do 500 push ups a day.

[Merryprankster]

I'm training to do 500 push ups a day.

If you're shooting for muscular endurance, there's nothing wrong with this. If you are trying to get stronger, this will not encourage either the neurological or physiological changes you desire. It will not teach your brain to fire more muscle fibers at once, and it will not encourage the muscles to grow.

It won't hurt anything either, at least, not from a fitness perspective. It would be inadvisable if you were trying to become a champion benchpresser, but that's not really your goal I suppose.

[Vasquez]

If you're shooting for muscular endurance, there's nothing wrong with this. If you are trying to get stronger, this will not encourage either the neurological or physiological changes you desire. It will not teach your brain to fire more muscle fibers at once, and it will not encourage the muscles to grow.

It won't hurt anything either, at least, not from a fitness perspective. It would be inadvisable if you were trying to become a champion benchpresser, but that's not really your goal I suppose.

repetition makes the muscles remeber so that they become fast when i need to use it for punching.

[Merryprankster]

If this is your goal, do clap pushups, where you explode off the ground.

Otherwise, the old lifting adage of "lift slow, be slow," will apply. You aren't training the muscles to contract as quickly as possible.

You need to do the pushups as explosively and as fast as you can.

Buying a resistance band (one with handles, or long enough that you can tie a handle loop) can help as well, when you get good at doing a bunch of clap push ups on your own. Just stretch it across your upper back.


Just doing a bunch of normal pushups isn't going to help your punching speed much (if at all) unless you're just in crappy shape to begin with. And I mean really crappy - like moving from sedentary to moderately active.

At this point, I'd also like to say that you are confusing muscle memory with something else. You are looking for an increase in an aspect of physical performance. That performance is translatable to your punching. After all, if I am good at punching, being stronger or more explosive can only help.

But "muscle memory" is highly specific to a movement/activity, so getting good at push-ups does not mean your punching will improve. Punching is a much more complicated activity. The muscle memory cultivated in a good push-up is not the same as the muscle memory cultivated in repeated punching. Just because I can use chopsticks, for example, does not mean I can knit.

Basically if you want to practice handspeed, buy a double end bag and a pair of bag gloves, do a bunch of "shadowboxing," so you won't ever be off balance, and have fun.

[Vasquez]

If this is your goal, do clap pushups, where you explode off the ground.

Otherwise, the old lifting adage of "lift slow, be slow," will apply. You aren't training the muscles to contract as quickly as possible.

You need to do the pushups as explosively and as fast as you can.

Buying a resistance band (one with handles, or long enough that you can tie a handle loop) can help as well, when you get good at doing a bunch of clap push ups on your own. Just stretch it across your upper back.


Just doing a bunch of normal pushups isn't going to help your punching speed much (if at all) unless you're just in crappy shape to begin with. And I mean really crappy - like moving from sedentary to moderately active.

At this point, I'd also like to say that you are confusing muscle memory with something else. You are looking for an increase in an aspect of physical performance. That performance is translatable to your punching. After all, if I am good at punching, being stronger or more explosive can only help.

But "muscle memory" is highly specific to a movement/activity, so getting good at push-ups does not mean your punching will improve. Punching is a much more complicated activity. The muscle memory cultivated in a good push-up is not the same as the muscle memory cultivated in repeated punching. Just because I can use chopsticks, for example, does not mean I can knit.

Basically if you want to practice handspeed, buy a double end bag and a pair of bag gloves, do a bunch of "shadowboxing," so you won't ever be off balance, and have fun.

I think not, endurence is the key just like stance training.

[SevenStar]

is the key to what? strength? surely, you don't really belive that.

[Vasquez]

is the key to what? strength? surely, you don't really belive that.

We do lots of stance work. Have you watched the endurence training in 36 chambers of shaolin, the main character eventually moved as light as a feather.

[Merryprankster]

After reading your posts, Vasquez, I marvel at why Australia would WANT a mandatory voting law.

You are an excellent argument against it.

[ewallace]

Of course most of you know, but Vasquez is a troll of the most boring nature. Kinda reminds me of Spiraler.

I'm sure if I do 500 squats a day I'll have no problem jumping over a bus that is about to run over me. That's what REAL muscle memory is all about. :rolleyes: