TKD Instructor as Expert Witness versus MMA Lawyer

[truewrestler]

I thought you all might find ths entertaining.



http://mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=615212&FID=2&pc=18

...I joined this case late. Don't even ask how it got this far. I swear to God it isn't my fault.

...I am involved in a nasty divorce case. It involves domestic violence. The husband(I represent the wife) is a brown belt in TKD. He is trying to call as an expert in martial arts his instructor. The instructor's testimony would be that if he had hit his wife, he would have killed her with his "deadly training." I got a chance to deposition the "expert" today. One part went something like this:

Q: You said that you are a 5 time world champion correct?

A: Yes.

Q: I've never heard of you. 5 time world champion in what?

A: I am a five time Master's Division Champion in TKD. 2 time advanced forms champion and 3 time advanced weapons forms champion.

Q: So you never fought anybody for those championships?

A: No, however I have trained for over twenty years.

Q: Sounds like you were training for a dance competition. Describe how being a 2 time forms champion makes you an expert in fighting?

A: We fight against imaginary opponents, kind of like boxers shadow box.

Q: So you fight against imaginary opponents that don't hit back and day dream about how bad you could hurt somebody if you really hit them?

(Objection, misstating and manipulating testimony. Has to answer anyway.)

A: No, it is for focus. Don't doubt for a minute the power that I possess.

It was a riot. This **** went on for 2 hours. I am objecting to him as an expert. I live in Fort Lauderdale, FL so if the judge allows him, I will use Charles McCarthy as my expert. "Your Honor, the only way to decide who the true expert is is to let them fight. The expert who wins can testify."

[Judge Pen]

That's a riot!!! And the husband is a dumba$$ for arguing that his techniques are too deadly for domestic abuse!

[sean_stonehart]

I can see the humor in that!!!

I hate to show my dumba$$ness, but who's Charles McCarthy? :confused:

I'm guessing a MMA guy, but I don't follow the fight circuit much.

[truewrestler]

Charles McCarthy was in this past weekend's UFC. He got nailed with a viscious spinning back kick from David Loiseau.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37075

http://www.wirelesslanparty.com/mma/videos/UFC%2053%20Loiseau%20vs%20McCarthy.WMV

[Judge Pen]

I enjoyed this response just as much:

Here's a little bit of serious advice.
Q. You are claiming that if Mr. Smith hit Mrs. Smith that he would seriously injure Ms. Smith, correct?

Q. Does martial arts training give you the ability to regulate the intensity of your punches?

Q. Can you hit both hard and soft

Q. How hard can you hit?

Q. How soft can you hit?

Q. Can you hit harder than a non-trained person?

Q. Can you hit softer than a non-trained person?

Q. I am not a trained martial artist. Can you hit softer than me?

Q. Let's have a demonstration. You hit me as soft as you can, and then I'll hit you as soft as I can. We'll see whether the trained martial artist can regulate his punches better than the non-trained person.

[Martial arts master hits you very softly, thus demonstrating his awesome control. Then, and here come the good part, you knock him out and stipulate that he is qualified as an expert.]

[Judge Pen]

I'm sorry; I missed something. Was this lawyer Charles McCarthy?

[truewrestler]

I'm sorry; I missed something. Was this lawyer Charles McCarthy? No, read the last paragraph again

[Ray Pina]

Boy does that sound like a fun day at work. This guy has no idea what he's in for. :)

[Judge Pen]

No, read the last paragraph again

Ok, I breeze these forums fairly quickly when at work. Good stuff.

[MasterKiller]

It's funny, but at the same time, there is some serious MMA nut-riding going on there.


Sounds like you were training for a dance competition. Describe how being a 2 time forms champion makes you an expert in fighting? I mean, C'mon already. :rolleyes:

He never asks the guy if he ever spars. He jumps from forms = dancing to how do forms make you a killer in 1 sentence.

[Brad]

Well, it's kind of his job to make the guy look bad. Plus you can figure out that he doesn't spar since his hands are "too deadly".

[SevenStar]

It's funny, but at the same time, there is some serious MMA nut-riding going on there.

I mean, C'mon already. :rolleyes:

He never asks the guy if he ever spars. He jumps from forms = dancing to how do forms make you a killer in 1 sentence.

he's merely discrediting the guy's argument. He's saying that being a world champ in forms will in no way equate to the guy being as deadly as his teacher claims.

[Royal Dragon]

Try re reading the guys answeres, with out the questions. It's pretty funny.


A: I am a five time Master's Division Champion in TKD. 2 time advanced forms champion and 3 time advanced weapons forms champion.


A: We fight against imaginary opponents, kind of like boxers shadow box.


A: No, it is for focus. Don't doubt for a minute the power that I possess.

[Ray Pina]

Tae Kwon Do sucks ...... there, I said it :p

[Shaolinlueb]

yeah cause we all know forms are dances :rolleyes:

just another mma person who only understands the basics. brute force and strength = everything to them. and unfortunetly in this modern world its what works. oh wait. let me get my gun :D

[Judge Pen]

he's merely discrediting the guy's argument. He's saying that being a world champ in forms will in no way equate to the guy being as deadly as his teacher claims.

Sure, there's the MMA undercurrent there, but it's the same way that I would have approached the guy's argument. It's the same way that any good lawyer, a martial artist or not, would have approaced the guy's argument.

And MK, you would make a good lawyer. You like to argue enough. :p

[DragonzRage]

C'mon if that guy was really trying to argue that the defendant would've killed/maimed his wife if he had hit her (due to his deadly TKD training), he deserved to get called out on his BS by anyone who has an ounce of knowledge about functional MA. Anyone, regardless of style, who'd try to make an argument like that is obviously a phony with delusions of grandeur. Nevermind the fact that he could be trying to get a wife beating scumbag off the hook with his "expert" testimony. Heck I'm sure there's plenty of sensible TKD experts who'd call that guy an idiot. It just reeks of that pseudo aura of imagined deadliness so common among second rate MA'ists who've never been in a real fight in their lives.

[MasterKiller]

And MK, you would make a good lawyer. You like to argue enough. :p It's the shave-everyday, wear-a-suit-and-tie-to-work, polish-your-shoes thing that keeps me out of law school.

[Judge Pen]

Eh, there's different types of lawyers out there. Find you niche with clients that don't shave, do kung fu and love Star Wars and you'll be fine.

[Mighty Scott]

I am reminded of the show the discovery channel had on a while ago "Extreme Martial Arts" where they follow this karate guy who was trying to make a come back in forms competition. They kept calling him a 3 time word martial arts champion. All during the program I kept thinking to myself "this guy's punches suck". They tried to have him break something and they had slow motion photos of him hitting it. Since he couldn't break it and they had to fill some time. His wrist was all out of alignment and his form was awful. Some of these forms guys are just gynmnasts with karate uniforms.

By the way the TKD I took was mostly sparring. They guys who were really good could kick like nobody's business, but their hand work was just so so. That's part of the reason I ended up leaving TKD, because I didn't know what to do if someone was punching at me.

[Shaolinlueb]

C'mon if that guy was really trying to argue that the defendant would've killed/maimed his wife if he had hit her (due to his deadly TKD training), he deserved to get called out on his BS by anyone who has an ounce of knowledge about functional MA. Anyone, regardless of style, who'd try to make an argument like that is obviously a phony with delusions of grandeur. Nevermind the fact that he could be trying to get a wife beating scumbag off the hook with his "expert" testimony. Heck I'm sure there's plenty of sensible TKD experts who'd call that guy an idiot. It just reeks of that pseudo aura of imagined deadliness so common among second rate MA'ists who've never been in a real fight in their lives.


very good young one.

[Infrazael]

What a ******* TKD freak. TKD sucks anyways, but I won't get into that so I'll leave it there.

You're front Ft. Lauderdale? There's a good CLF school there. . . don't know why I'm saying this but whatever, lol.

Good luck in your case. Peace

[Vash]

karate guy

There was ONE karate man on that show, and he was on it for less than 5 minutes. The ONE kung fu man was on less than that.

The rest of the show was about 2 hours of suck.

[truewrestler]

FYI, this is a re-post from another forum...I have nothing to do with the case

[PangQuan]

The thing I kept thinking whilst reading this was; why would a supposed, respected "master" of TKD be going to court in defence of a student who is facing charges of domestic violence from beating his wife?!?!

[Royal Dragon]

That thought has crossed my mind too.

[GeneChing]

I'm cannibalizing this thread for Martial Arts Expert Witnesses. If it grows as such in years to come, I'll change the title (although it's got a pretty hilarious start, yes?)


Martial arts expert, prosecuter demonstrate struggle during stiletto murder trial (http://www.connectamarillo.com/news/story.aspx?id=1028323#.U0QdPiiIBrI)
Posted: 04.07.2014 at 5:10 PM

(AP) -- Attorneys for a Houston woman accused of fatally stabbing her boyfriend with her stiletto heel brought in a martial arts expert to demonstrate for jurors at her trial how they believe she was attacked on the night of the killing.

Ana Trujillo is charged with murder in the death of 59-year-old Alf Stefan Andersson. Investigators say Trujillo struck him at least 25 times in the face with her shoe during an argument at his Houston condominium in June. Trujillo's attorney says the 45-year-old woman was defending herself from Andersson.

During the trial in Houston Monday, martial arts expert Chris Martinez and another man performed a demonstration in which the two rolled on the ground trying to recreate the struggle Trujillo alleges happened between her and Andersson. I've had to give depositions as such, but I've never been in a courtroom. Not yet at least.

[Syn7]

I find the whole topic of "expert witness'" to be quite fascinating. So when it's a doctor, they have a nice shiny phd to call on. And even then you come across quite a few flakes. What exactly qualifies a MA expert? An ITK certificate for chest punching and yelling loud? A stable of professional fighters? A pro record? What would the court deem more credible, an honorary title in MT or TKD? It all seems so subjective. I guess the best guys to call would be people who train others for actual combat. Like a close combat instructor for the military or the police, but then what about the defense? Who do they call to counter the bias? I mean, you really wanna put a dog brother, or whatever, on the stand for a trial involving a knifing?

[Judge Pen]

The qualifications for someone to be an expert witness varies from state to state. Each state has their own Rules of Evidence and cases that address the qualifications of a witness to testify in the form of an expert opinion. Typically, it involves scientific, technical or other specialized knowledge that would assist (or sometimes "substantially assist") the trier of fact (judge or jury) and the witness must be qualified as an expert based on their knowledge, skill, experience, training or education. (See Rules 702 of the Tennessee Rules of Evidence and Rule 702 of the Federal Rules of Evidence). Their opinions can be challenged, or even excluded, if they are unreliable or would not "assist the trier of fact" Non-exclusive factors for weighing the credibility of the expert evidence or testimony include: (1) whether the evidence has been tested and the methodology has been tested; (2) whether the evidence has been subjected to peer review or publication; (3) whether a potential rate of error is known; (4) whether the evidence is generally accepted in its industry or field; and (5) whether the expert's research in the field has been conducted independent of litigation. There are other factors, too numerous to list, that could come into play depending on the case or the types of opinions solicited.

Whether or not an expert is qualified to testify is in the sound discretion of the trial court after considering these factors. But the introduction of an expert's opinion is not determinative of an issue, or the ultimate issue, in a case. A judge or jury can give that expert's opinion whatever weight it feels is appropriate--even completely discounting an opinion. I've won several cases where the opposing side had an expert, and I did not, just by showing the jury that the opinion of the expert was contrary to common sense and experience.

[Syn7]

Can you name an MA expert that you personally feel you have no chance of discrediting? You see what I'm getting at here, right? Not everything runs along side intuition. Some things are VERY counterintuitive. At what point are most people in a courtroom even remotely qualified to judge whether somebody is an MA expert? Regardless of the paper they carry.

With, say, physics, it's easy. Oh look, dude has a degree from and works for this great school. He has been peer reviewed like a mother****er and has all the institutional backing anyone could ask for. But with MA's, no such agreement exists between bodies the way it does in academia.

[Judge Pen]

I understand excatly what you're getting at. And, no I can mount a pretty good challenge against any so-called martial arts expert's opinions because there's always positives and negatives to anyone's training, experiences or biases. This forum is a perfect illustration of that point. I guess the point is based on the rules of evidence, anyone with a black belt (or the equivilent) is potentially competent to be admitted as an expert and allowed to express opinions in a case, but the weight of the expert and the testimony is what is key. Being considered an expert witness doesn't mean diddly if the judge or jury rejects your opinions.

[GeneChing]

Martial arts witness addressed at pretrial hearing in Sean Cassaro death case (https://www.bucyrustelegraphforum.com/story/news/local/2024/03/11/jury-pool-at-110-witness-excluded-from-cassaro-murder-trail-in-may/72936217007/)
Oksana Kotkina
Bucyrus Telegraph-Forum

A jury pool of 110 people will be called for the trial of a Bucyrus man facing a murder charge in the death of Sean Cassaro.

At a pretrial hearing Monday, Crawford County Common Pleas Judge Shane Leuthold said both the prosecution and defense agreed the number should be enough from which to seat the 12-person jury.

On trial is Thomas Brown, formerly of South Sandusky Avenue, Bucyrus. He was indicted in February of last year on charges of murder and involuntary manslaughter, both felonies.

Cassaro, 46, Bucyrus, died following a fight at 515 Tiffin St. in the early morning hours of Jan. 22, 2023, the Bucyrus Police Department reported. Cassaro was found lying face-down in the driveway, unresponsive, and was pronounced dead by Bucyrus Fire/EMS, according to police reports.

Leuthold also made a ruling on a witnesses the prosecution intended to call who is someone trained in the martial arts.

The judge said an expert opinion should be delivered by someone with specialized knowledge, skills, training or education and be based on scientific, technical or other specialized information.

https://www.bucyrustelegraphforum.com/gcdn/authoring/authoring-images/2024/01/29/PBUC/72401066007-court.jpg?width=1320&height=990&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp
Defense attorney James Mayer, defendant Thomas Brown and defense attorney Sean Boone listen during a pre-trail hearing in the case of the death of Sean Cassaro.

Ruling on martial artist as an expert witness

“That's why the court has a problem with it,” Leuthold said about the proposed witness. “This is martial arts, artists and martial arts not martial sciences."

The judge said an expert witness's purpose is to assist the jury in its decision-making, but the case is straightforward – it’s more about strangulation than about martial art techniques.

“I don’t think that a jujutsu expert or any martial artist is going to be able to give a lot of opinions that’s going to make the jury understand,” Leuthold said.

The judge also took issue with some of the content in the martial arts report provided by the prosecution, saying it appeared too generic to be considered scientific.

“I just don’t think this is reliable scientific technical information,” Leuthold said.

The prosecution argued the witness should be permitted to testify as an expert based on specialized knowledge and experience in methodology.

The judge said he would review the report again, and then mentioned another problem he identified with the report was the expert was trying to testify about the defendant’s knowledge at the time of the strangulation.

“I think it’s a non-scientific way of doing it,” Leuthold said. “At this point, I’m going to exclude that again.”

He ruled the witness would be excluded from testifying, but said the prosecution could revisit the issue at a later date.

The trial is scheduled to begin May 20.
A decade-old bit of necromancy here...:cool: