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View Full Version : Tan Saus....LOTS of Tan Saus.....LOL



Sean Madigan
09-11-2000, 02:37 AM
Hi All,

I have a question about the number of Tan Sau's that are found in Sil Lim Tau.

Without really thinking, it is easy to find at least Three. The Tau Sau that comes straight out in the first section, then in teh third section you have the Tan sau that comes off of the Gaun Sau, and also the Tan Sau that comes from the Bong Sau. What is the purpose of showing it that way, and are there any others?

Thanks,

BIG Sean Madigan

www.bigjkd.com (http://www.bigjkd.com)

BIG JKD...Where EVERYTHING is done in a BIG way!

Sihing73
09-11-2000, 03:06 AM
Hi Sean,

There is only ONE (1) Taun Sau but many variations /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I may be up your way around the 23rd and 24th of this month. If I have time perhaps we can meet.

Peace,

Dave

FUJIYakumo
09-11-2000, 09:35 AM
I'm with sihing73 on this, its all the same tan sao. just making you practice tan sao more times to enforce that tan is a core movement.

vingtsunstudent
09-11-2000, 02:20 PM
i also agree but would like to further add that although the movement is tan sao it is also just more of a way of training to bring the elbow into centre. in reality they could just as easy be fuk saos instead of tans or at least this is what i have been told.
vts

Sihing73
09-11-2000, 06:28 PM
VTS,

Traditionally there are three "seeds" from which the other hand techniques grow. They are Taun, Fook and Bong. I think that Taun trains different aspects than Fook or Bong therefore performing the Taun has its own purpose. What I am getting at is that, while Taun does train one to occupy the center and get the elbow in Fook would train one to do it differently. So, it is important to train Taun, Fook and Bong as all are important. You can not give up one and substitute it with another and expect the same results.

In the most basic terms Taun trains one to make contact with the outside of the wrist; Fook trains one to make contact with the underside od the wrist and Bong trains one to make contact with the opposite side of the wrist as Taun. Please consider these are very general and there may be exceptions in applicaiton. However, Taun trains one ot extend energy forward while Fook trains one to draw in. Again, very general as you can press forward with a Fook but in the form the emphasis is as I just related.

Peace,

Dave

vingtsunstudent
09-11-2000, 06:53 PM
sorry sihing we must place a different things than you.
every thing we do comes from the elbow moving foward into centre.
we don't think about making contact with the wrist(although that is where contact is made) as this to us would place a sideways pressure throughout the forearm & our whole emphasis is on controling the centre with the elbow.
as to saying that fook is for drawing in would it not be more applicable to call that technic jut sao(again as you know different lineages have different applications & this is just what we would call a fook that draws in). we always use the fook sao in a foward through centre way.
i don't know how correct you might think i am in saying this but if you put your hands by your side & bring them up to tan, is it not the same movement as fook except till near the end of the movement where you turn your palm up(i am only talking about a tan that goes along centre line, not one that you might use to deal with a haymaker)
it is interesting to read peoples different views on how technics work but i think at the end of the day we are all still going to prefer the way we already know?
vts

Sean Madigan
09-11-2000, 07:07 PM
Hi Dave,

Sure, it would be great to meet.

Let me know when you are in town, my school number is 718-338-6485.

All the best,

BIG Sean Madigan

Sihing73
09-11-2000, 07:45 PM
Hi VTS,

One of the problems in the medium is that something shown is easier to understand. I think that we are much closer than it may seem.

When referring to Taun the wrist is the contact point but I would not advocate exerting any type of side-ward pressure. It is instead just the place where contact is made and you accept your opponents energy. I would agree that the elbow should be placed in center for optimal performance, however, there are times when you may need to move the elbow off of center. Also, consider that both elbows can not occupy the center at the same time so in a technique combineing a strike such as a Taun Da which takes center the Taun or the Punch? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As to a Fook drawing in being a Jut I would agree. However, Jut is an offspring of Fook so it is still in the family. Jut is a variation which comes for the "seed" of Fook.

Do me a favor and think about this; in the form the Wu Sau is practiced being drawn back to the chest while the Fook Sau is practiced pressing forward with pressure from the elbow. Now, in applicaiton which way does the Wu energy go? Also, which way dows the Fook go? I realize that you can perform things in more than one way. However, consider the most likley application and tell me what you think and why the form trains the energy this way.

I agree that it is interesting to read and explore other methods and options. Many times we learn and have our eyes opened to things we may not have noticed before.

Peace,

Dave

vingtsunstudent
09-11-2000, 08:05 PM
hello again dave
yes wu sao is a very interesting technic, it is funny in that when we practice it, although the hand is moving backwards we always emphasis a contridictory foward force be applied to it.
again it is truely a shame that we could not get together, because as you already said, and i am in total agreeance that there is no way possible to give full explanations, that we could truely understand in this forum, without sitting down & talking face to face.
also dave i think in respone as to which tech. would take the centre if you were to use tan-punch.... i would say that if you were using facing & the waist your tan would more than likely be on centre as i have never seen anyone completely extend their punch & be able to keep their elbow on centre(i hope you understand what i am getting at) or if you are just(oh my god i've just realised i have to get to bed at sometime tonight & the with the amount of variations here i could probably go on for hrs-sorry)
vts

sifu dan
09-14-2000, 03:18 AM
in my opinion,each tan is used differently according to a different energy. i dont want to sit here and tell all applications,however,the first tan sau energy is much different than the tan gaun one. i do a jam sau on the second part,it is disguised a little to look like a tan,but the energy is different.itgoes,jam,jum,tan,gaun,and so on.applications are key. mvement are like words, if i say your a jerk,its different than YOUR A JERK.a different energy,and you would respond with a different energy back,accordin to mine. its the same withthe tan sau. different energy,diffrent movement in form.just my opinion,i am no master.

Sihing73
09-14-2000, 07:21 AM
Sifu Dan,

While I agree that differing energy will result in different applications of the Taun I would disagree that there are different tauns. Once you learn Taun and understand it you can utlize it in many different situation.

Let me make an analogy: Lets say you know how to drive a car. Does you ability to drive effect what make and model you drive or do you simply apply the skills you have learned and apply it to different vehicles. I realize that there are some differences Driving a truck or a car etc, but the basic concept remains the same.

Peace,

Dave

marcus_pasram
09-20-2000, 07:22 PM
Hi Sean,

I've been shown that there are three different tan saus in the first form. Each has something to offer. Actually every movement in the forms are can be considered an ingredient of a technique.

The first tan sau is to teach you the basic idea of guarding your center line and quarter line (ribs). It is also done extremely slow and there are other training refinements to develop speed in generating power.

The second tan sau expands on the idea of the first in terms of center line, but now emphasizes covering the upper gate. It trains you how to coordinate the power from your elbow, shoulder and horse while maintaining effective structure in the position/angle of the hand.

The third tan sau continues the idea of coverage from the (outside-in) a bong sau (elbow out) position to tan sau (elbow in).

All these tan saus have their usages. The 2nd can be thought of as a shield, The 3rd as a whip, and the first as a cross-hair.

These are just my ideas that I received from my Sifu Allan Lee. Any mistakes in expressing them are purely my own.

If you would like to visit our class, I can arrange a time for you. Our school is open to anyone who practices Wing Chun Kung Fu. We are all one family and I hope that we can learn from each other to further our knowledge of this branch of martial Arts.

Sincerely,
Marcus Pasram
marcus_pasram@yahoo.com

Sihing73
09-22-2000, 01:26 PM
HI Marcus,

I believe you and I kow the same person teaching in New Jersey. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As to your post on the three different and distinct Tauns; I am curious as to how they are different since each one seems to expand on the idea of the one before it. Kind of like an evolutionary concept. They all seem to be variations on a theme.

Returning to my analogy of driving a car. If you drive on a country road, a windy moutain road or in the city, does your driving change or do you still apply the same concepts to a different situation?

What I am getting at is simply this; Wing Chun "Techniques" are more about understanding the concept and principle behind the application rather than about a specific shape or position. Therefore I would tend to stay with my original assertion that there is only one Taun but many variaitons of that Taun. While it is possible to assume many different roles and even shapes, the concept and principle remain the same. Even in your example of the three Tauns you seem to be saying that each one builds upon the ides of the first so in realisty would it be fair to say they are the same yet varied to fit the specific circumstance and need?

Following the concept of Taun you can build many "techniques". You can do Taun with the srm stright and parallel, with the arm angled 45', with the wrist bent etc etc. Yet, each of these is a variation of the same theme. One of the reasons Taun is considered one of the Three Seeds is for this reason, it can be varied and produce a number of offspring.

Taun can be an interesting concept to discuss. For example, the HFY people produced an article asserting there was on One Taun and one time to use it in the confines of time and space. What they were getting at is not so much that there is only one Taun but that there is only one proper time to execute it. In other words if it meets the needs use Taun if you need something else use it. If there are any HFY people please feel free to correct me as I am not of that lineage and could quite possibly missed the point. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In any event I am enjoying this conversation so please let us continue.

Peace,

Dave

marcus_pasram
09-24-2000, 02:48 PM
Hi Dave,

I've quoted you in italics. I've also snipped.

I believe you and I kow the same person teaching in New Jersey.

I'm not sure what you're referring to.

<snip...>
I am curious as to how they are different since each one seems to expand on the idea of the one before it. Kind of like an evolutionary concept. They all seem to be variations on a theme.

Partly, my idea comes from the 1st form (as shown to me.) There are three distinct tan saus (not the same one done three times). IMO each one builds on a concept of the previous one, except that the concept is applied in a different way for different reasons. For example, one could say the 1st tan could emphasize 'cutting/deflecting', the 2nd could emphasize 'pushing/thrusting', and the 3rd could emphasize 'whipping/sweeping'. I like your evolution analogy. Darwin would say we evolved from primates - but are we the same as primates even though we are expanding on the 'survival' theme from before?

Returning to my analogy of driving a car. If you drive on a country road, a windy moutain road or in the city, does your driving change or do you still apply the same concepts to a different situation?
Nice analogy. Feeling. I would apply my (3) tan tools as needed by the situation ;-)


What I am getting at is simply this; Wing Chun "Techniques" are more about understanding the concept and principle behind the application rather than about a specific shape or position.
I cannot agree with you more. No can learn fighting from a form. Someone may understand theories and concepts but lack the feeling make it work. The point is how do we get the proper understanding and feeling. Also - what is the evaluation criteria (fitness function) to determine a better way of doing something? To me this comes from a premise that is necessary from day one of one's studies. Everything you learn should be evaluated against that premise.


Therefore I would tend to stay with my original assertion that there is only one Taun but many variaitons of that Taun. While it is possible to assume many different roles and even shapes, the concept and principle remain the same. <snip>
I would say the same except, 'there are only three tan saus and every 'tan' is a variation of one of the three'


Even in your example of the three Tauns you seem to be saying that each one builds upon the ides of the first so in realisty would it be fair to say they are the same yet varied to fit the specific circumstance and need?
See primates above.


Following the concept of Taun you can build many "techniques". You can do Taun with the srm stright and parallel, with the arm angled 45', with the wrist bent etc etc. Yet, each of these is a variation of the same theme. One of the reasons Taun is considered one of the Three Seeds is for this reason, it can be varied and produce a number of offspring.
I agree ;-)


Taun can be an interesting concept to discuss. For example, the HFY people produced an article asserting there was on One Taun and one time to use it in the confines of time and space. What they were getting at is not so much that there is only one Taun but that there is only one proper time to execute it. In other words if it meets the needs use Taun if you need something else use it. <...snip>
Hey - is it called 'A brief history of Tan'? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (joke)


In any event I am enjoying this conversation so please let us continue.

Likewise,

Kind Regards,
Marcus

Sihing73
09-25-2000, 02:10 PM
Hi Marcus,

I understand your assertion of there being three Tauns and understand where you are coming from. However, I would ask you to consider all that one can do with Taun. Now, if I choose to do Taun at a slight upward 45' angle and with a bent wrist does this represent a new and different Taun then when I perfrom it level with my chest? If so, then there are countless variations with Taun and each one should be considered a different one.

Taun can be used to accomplish several things. It can be used to intercept, to disperse, to swallow, to exert pressure in order to break their root, etc. the list can go on. Now, I have just given 4 examples of using Taun. In each one I would use the concept of Taun to accomplish the task at hand. Each one can have a slightly different shape and exert slightly different pressure. Yet, each remains a Taun. Not a different Taun but the same one in various applicaitions. Which one is right or wrong ro all they all right and wrong? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If you perform Taun properly then you will take the necessary shape and provide the proper energy for the moment depending on what is given to you by the opponent. If you try to break it down into subsystems of low, forward etc then you have added an element of thought to how you perform and this will slow down your reaction as you will, even for a millisecond need to decide which one to use. However, if you accept all Tauns as one and simply variations on a theme then there is no hesitation as you just do Taun and react. I don't know if this is clear but I hope it helps.

Consider whey there are said to be three "Seeds". There are variations on Bong as well, Low and High for example yet they are still Bong, aren't they? If you take the analogy of gardening then there can be many types of roses and of varying colors yet all are still a rose all still share the common root and the differences are minute and superficial affecting only appearence. (I know it is more complicated but I am trying to break it down to the simplest aspects).

Let me add one more spoke ot the wheel so to speak. There are many different people on the planet. Several different races and ethnic groups. Yet we all share the common bond of being Human. Basically, we are the same. We all have a set number of arms and legs etc. Yet, if a person has less than that they are still human. Now, one person may take the body and train it to become a great athlete. Yet, we all share the same basic genetic material. Some are just better developed than others. So how many types of people are there? Several hundred or just one with ,many variations? BTW anthropoligists usually agree that there are three (3) distinct racial groups yet from those three we have countless variations. And, though there are many who like to point out differences all are basically the same.

So, how many Tauns are there? Wing Chun is about simplicity. It is about stripping away the unecesary to accomplish the goal. With this in mind I think the less we have, which is essential the better we will be. So I again lean towards the one Taun. Sorry /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Are we having fun yet? BTW sorry to ramble a bit with this one. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Peace,

Dave

vingtsunstudent
09-25-2000, 02:34 PM
hi all
ok so i might have lost a few people with what i was saying in my earlier post but i am sure if we were able to all sit down, i would be able to give a clear demonstration of what i mean.
as to tan sao, although the tans may all come from(or start at) different positions the only difference is the way your force is used(especially from the elbow)or the angle in relation to your centre depending on their apex of force.
it is still a tan sao if the palm is up & you are simutaneously attacking.(if it was something else it would have another name ?)
the only time tan sao will look different is if it is applied in the upside down position, as in the second form.
vts

flavour54
09-26-2000, 02:29 AM
The way that the tan sau gets to it's final location in each instance in Sil lum tao is different therefore each of them are important.

"take the pebble from my hand"The old monk from the TV show"Kung Fu"

"I just go at it as best I can"
Benny the Legend.

melfid
09-01-2001, 04:07 AM
Hi Mr. Lo, Siging73

Can you continue this thread please? It is really interesting.

Mr Lo - I think you were about to make a point. I can feel it - but I am left hanging.

Sihing73 - One Taun? If its simple - I can argue that we should give up the current 1st form set and do one tan, one bong, one fook and since we've covered the seeds of WC the first form would be done! hhehe - just kidding. I really would like to know more abou tyour idea.

Thanks,
Dan

Sharky
09-01-2001, 04:39 AM
http://www.24pm.com/humferier/sad/eek2.gif A great thread.

================================================== ==========================

"What you wan' cry fo? You know that my hammer is heavy and it got kick like tae kwon do, now you gwarn die slow... I'ma show you how to stretch a m0ther****er if you wanna watch tae bo"

dzu
09-01-2001, 10:05 AM
The tan sau doesn't exist by itself. It is created by the opponent's force or the jing you want to use. Anything else is just a pose. How many ways can you spread or disperse the force? Are all forces you encounter the same? There are an infinite number of tan saus in WC and also only one.

Dzu

reneritchie
09-01-2001, 02:14 PM
Hey Dzu, I think I'm starting to hear gongs sound at the end of your replies ;)

Actually, that pretty well sums up my current thinking on a lot of WCK (the one and infinite, not the gong). We have concepts simple in essance and fairly unlimited in application. Since neither one nor infinite is a particularly useful number for a student, however, we tend to come up with 3 or 8 or whatever number of examples and chew on them for a while until they're digested into understanding. Then, when contact is made, the opponent tells you exactly what shape, path, and power will defeat them.

Sean- FWIW, in Sum Nung Wing Chun Kuen, we don't call all those three Tan Sao. The first one we call Tan Sao (Dispersing Arm), the second Tun Sao (Swallowing Arm), and the third Chum Jarn Gao Sao (Sinking Elbow Saving Arm). Each one has a different shape, path, and power. There's also another Tan-like hand just before the double Biu Jee (Darting Fingers) that shows another example. As above, I found those examples helpful in the beginning not to get locked into any one rigid example nor get lost in unfocused variation.

Rgds,

Rene Ritchie

Sharky
09-01-2001, 03:03 PM
"Hey Dzu, I think I'm starting to hear gongs sound at the end of your replies"

CLASSIC!

================================================== ==========================

"What you wan' cry fo? You know that my hammer is heavy and it got kick like tae kwon do, now you gwarn die slow... I'ma show you how to stretch a m0ther****er if you wanna watch tae bo"

TjD
09-01-2001, 06:00 PM
you asked to think about how the tan fook and wu motions in the beginning of SLT are used in application
:)

and i know awhile ago someone posted how their sifu actually switched the directions

anyhow, if you look at the single handed dan chi sau routine, ( tan -> palm strike -> bong ) vs ( fook -> wu (jut) -> punch )
you see that the way the energy is trained in SLT is the same as the one handed drill :) and this is the basis of normal chi sau

but it all really gets back to what energy your opponent is sending to you :) there is no tan sau without an opponent

peace
travis

Receive what comes, Escort what leaves, and if there is an opening, rush in

dzu
09-01-2001, 06:14 PM
"Hey Dzu, I think I'm starting to hear gongs sound at the end of your replies."


Uh oh..does that mean you're going to pull a lever and a trap door will open beneath my feet? :D

Dzu

reneritchie
09-01-2001, 06:31 PM
LOL! Nope. I was thinking eastern, not western. I meant the kind that would usually be followed by heads knocking on the tiles and murmurs of profundity ;)

BTW- I think the motions of Dan Chi Sao (whether you do them in sequence like Yip Man's HK students) or loose like in other branches, teach the nuts and bolts of tan, fook, wu, chum, and the way in which WCK intent focuses on the opponent's center (even when seeming to go back or down, etc.) As things get more dynamic, however, I also think they serve as the keys to the rather amazing (to me at least) way some of the top WCK people seem to be able to toss others around (and down) so suddenly.

Rgds,

Rene Ritchie

TjD
09-01-2001, 07:58 PM
the more i understand the 3 hands of wing chun, the easier it is for me to throw people around :)

peace
trav

Receive what comes, Escort what leaves, and if there is an opening, rush in

Roy D. Anthony
09-04-2001, 09:00 AM
There are many methods of naming techniques. The techniques seemingly to have an open palm-up are usually nicknamed Tan Sao. However, many techniques are also named by their function. Therefore, to say that there is only one tan may be inappropriate, as well as very appropriate! In our System we have 4 Single varied Tans and 2 double varied Tans.

burnsypoo
09-04-2001, 05:47 PM
Hi Roy, care to elaborate on how you see these different types of tan saus?
-bp-

Roy D. Anthony
09-05-2001, 08:08 AM
Correction:4 singles (aside from the ones done after every strike)and 3 doubles.My Apologies.