Fight or flight or freeze?

[ZIM]

An article: (http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/press/pressitem.asp?ref=398&site=1)
People, like other animals, freeze and their heart rate slows upon seeing threatening cues.

Standing still when a threat is detected is a defensive, protective reaction. This ancestral and automatic behavior allows the prey to stay unnoticed by a potential predator. A new study published in Psychophysiology finds that humans, like many other complex animals, freeze when encountering a threat. The mere picture of an injured or mutilated human induces this reaction. When viewing these unpleasant images, the study’s participants froze as their heart rate decelerated and amount of their body sway reduced. The authors found that this abrupt reaction, so critical for the survival of some animals, has stayed with humans.

Forty-eight male volunteers stood barefoot on a stabilometric platform, to measure balance and body sway, and viewed twenty-four pictures from three different categories. They were: pleasant (sports), neutral (objects), and unpleasant (injured or mutilated humans). Posturographic and electrocardiographic recordings were collected. The author found a significant reduction in body sway along with increased muscle stiffness following the unpleasant/mutilation block of pictures compared to the neutral pictures. The number of heartbeats per minute was also lower after viewing the mutilation pictures than after looking at the others. “This pattern resembles the ‘freezing’ and ‘fear bradycardia’ seen in many species when confronted with threatening stimuli, mediated by neural circuits that promote defensive survival,” author Eliane Volchan explains.

So, if you're an evolutionist or evolutionary psychologist, what do you think the advantage of such a response *might* have been?

Merely that its easier to see movement when still? Something else? Or is it more of an evolutionary quirk? Is it something held over that must be overcome, or does it have value?

And, maybe, does the relatively intense stance training [among other things] in Kung Fu contribute to reinforcing it, or give you options if you're frozen since you've become accustomed to responding from a position of freezing?

One last: Do you think this is a phenomenon that reduces with age, individually or in aggregate? Why?

:D

[gfx]

It makes sense. Animals tend to have camouflage, ie zebras. Remember that predators such as lions don't have coloured vision. So to them a zebra would blend into the surrounding enviroment. Now since most animal eyes are much better at detecting motion, a moving zebra is easier to detect than a frozen one.

[IronFist]

Fascinating.

[rogue]

Is it something held over that must be overcome, or does it have value? It has value if you are hunter or prey as long as you are in the correct environment. Woodlands good, octagon bad. Also the prey still has flight as an option if it needs it.


Now since most animal eyes are much better at detecting motion, a moving zebra is easier to detect than a frozen one. I don't think zebras are a good example as they are herd animals and their stripes are intended to confuse the hunter while they are moving and not camouflage them.

[ZIM]

Fascinating.
Tell me about it. I almost didn't put this one up, we've dealt with it so much. But, hey, science & all that. w00h00

Answering my own last Q: I think its something that gets lessened with age, in the aggregate. A portion of those who're prone to freezing for too long wind up dead in today's world. To confirm, I'd probably get ahold of an insurance company. :)

One thing that wasn't covered was whether or not perception became more acute. They noted the heart rate slowed and muscles stiffened, but it doesn't say if they became noticably hyper-aware or not.

Musing: I wonder what sort of testing could be done for that...?

[Ray Pina]

I've learned one important trait that I'm trying to instill into my hardwiring ..... I am rich and famous and the other guy is just a bum.

This attitude will prevent you from seaking to trade blows with the other guy ... because is it a win if the other guy (who you don't know) goes home will 5 less teath and you only go home missing two? I consider a win when nothing happens to me.

At the same time, when you do get hit with this attitude, it's like some little French Poodle just pooped on your $5,000 rug and you need to beat it so it learns never to do that again.

This is what I'm evolving too. Those other ingrained responses were great when you didn't want to russle the dry leaves when foe was near.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i wonder how they would measure the responses of people like me.

seen it ... seen it ... yawn ... seen it ... wow thats new ... seen it ....

[Reggie1]

[
So, if you're an evolutionist or evolutionary psychologist, what do you think the advantage of such a response *might* have been?

Evolutionarily speaking, there are multiple advantages to the 'freeze' response.

1. Most animals w/ this ingrained response have some sort of natural camoflauge.
2. It aids in detection of where the danger is coming from, because you can pick up things better w/ your eyes and your ears when you aren't moving.
3. Most predators' eyes work by detecting motion. It's much easier to see something moving than something sitting still. I know humans are like this--I hunt and it's A LOT easier to see your prey when it's moving rather than staying still.

[PangQuan]

i wonder how they would measure the responses of people like me.

seen it ... seen it ... yawn ... seen it ... wow thats new ... seen it ....

Thats when the Mafia gets involved...

[ZIM]

i wonder how they would measure the responses of people like me.

seen it ... seen it ... yawn ... seen it ... wow thats new ... seen it ....Well, alright. What you're saying is that you've inured yourself to involuntary response? If so, would it be fair to say that you think this freeze reaction is something to be overcome, has no particular value?

[Kinda funny, considering. I know you've looked at a lot of these images and that's what you're referring to. If we're to take the idea & roll with it, then MA schools should have a 'film night' with snuff videos :D ]

[PangQuan]

I think this is a trait to be overcome. Take top of the line special forces. A large majority of those people can see a mutilated body and pull out an M.R.E. and start munching.

That is the advantage we have over the lower animals, we have the ability to deny nature, and take responses into our own hands by manipulating our psychi, through repetative training drills designed to trigger certain responses, or remove certain responses.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The freeze is useful prior to the prey being noticed.. once noticed, run away, run away.. i don't have to be faster than the lion, only faster than someone else.. that's why you always take the fat slow guy with you on safari..

I wonder what the test response would be if there was an imminent threat vs. unthreatening gore?

Be well..

[ZIM]

Ya know, it just occured to me.

Anybody thiink that this suggests that, in our primeval state, there existed a natural predator of proto-humans?

I'm thinking here of our collective/universal legends, werewolves, etc., as well as the possibility that our concept of cooperative warfare formed in response to a previous, ancient external threat.

There was some anthropological work of this nature I can't recall the title of that posited creatures like the saber-tooth tiger in this role. Speculative but fun....

[joedoe]

I think as both a hunter and as prey it is a useful instinct. Freezing all motion allows you to blend in with your surroundings better (provided you are not out in the open) and so possibly evade a predator. As a hunter, the freezing of motion and the slowing of the heartbeat would allow you to see and hear things better. It might possibly also improve your aim :).

As an initial reaction it is not bad, except in the case of imminent danger in which case you want to be able to react quickly, not freeze.

[Gowgee]

This list of biological changes in combat was posted on another site recently. It's taken from <a href="http://tservcsc.bizhosting.com/combatology.html">this site</a>.

====================================

PERCEPTUAL DISTORTIONS IN COMBAT

85% Diminished Sound (auditory exclusion)
80% Tunnel Vision
74% Autopilot ("Scared Speechless")
72% Heightened Visual Clarity
65% Slow Motion Time
51% Memory Loss for Parts of the Event
47% Memory Loss for Some of Your Actions
40% Dissociation (detachment)
26% Intrusive Distracting Thoughts
22% Memory Distortions
16% Fast Motion Time
16% Intensified Sounds
7% Temprary Paralysis

(from "On Combat", page 55)
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. Physiology of Combat

CONDITION BLACK (heart rate above 175)
Irrational fight or flee
Freezing
Submissive behavior
Voiding of bladder and bowels
Gross motor skills (running, charging, etc. at highest performance level)

CONDITION GRAY (heart rate 145 - 175)
Cognitive processing deteriorates
Vasoconstriction (=reduced bleeding from wounds)
Loss of peripheral vision (tunnel vision)
Loss of depth perception
Loss of near vision
Auditory exclusion
Complex motor skill deteriorates

CONDITION RED - "THE ZONE" (heart rate between 115 and 145)
Optimal survival and combat performance level for:
Complex motor skills
Visual Reaction Time
Cognitive Reaction Time

CONDITIONAL YELLOW (heart rate 115)
Fine motor skill deteriorates

CONDITION WHITE (normal heart rate)

(from "On Combat", page 31)

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[Reggie1]

Ya know, it just occured to me.

Anybody thiink that this suggests that, in our primeval state, there existed a natural predator of proto-humans?

I doubt there were too many animals that were natural predators of our ancestors. But there probably was a lot of competition for terrritory, food, shelter, among the other large predatory mammals.

Plus, this might be something that was an evolutionary carry-over from early mammals, back when early mammals were mostly prey.

[ZIM]

I doubt there were too many animals that were natural predators of our ancestors. But there probably was a lot of competition for terrritory, food, shelter, among the other large predatory mammals.

Plus, this might be something that was an evolutionary carry-over from early mammals, back when early mammals were mostly prey.
OK. What about other proto-humans, like Neanderthals, for instance? Ours wasn't the only species of human in competitition back then,

[PangQuan]

That far back, Im pretty sure a large carnivor would eat just about anything they could kill, including humans.

Thus pack mentality, if you were not in a group, good chance you will get eaten. (unless your a bad ass who can kill, lions/tigers/bears OH MY all by yourself.)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Well, alright. What you're saying is that you've inured yourself to involuntary response? If so, would it be fair to say that you think this freeze reaction is something to be overcome, has no particular value?

[Kinda funny, considering. I know you've looked at a lot of these images and that's what you're referring to. If we're to take the idea & roll with it, then MA schools should have a 'film night' with snuff videos :D ]

i'm not sure if im saying that. i dont think that snuff films can prepare you for the real thing or even close to it. i'm just saying that i would have been desensitized to the pictures so the study probably would have had different results on me.

all that aside i think freezing is bad period. it leads to broken noses and dead deer.