Li Pi Quan

[blackmantis]

Hi everybody,

does anyone study this form? is Kua Hu (Riding the Tiger) posture the end of the form?

many thanks,

S

[Three Harmonies]

I end essentially in Mantis Catches Cicada, but I do not officially know what the move is called since I do not have the chuan pu.

Sorry I cannot be of more help.
Jake :cool:

[Shaolin Master]

跨虎捕蝉 - Kua hu bu chan.

[K.Brazier]

In Gm Wei's book Practical Application of Mantis Fist he includes the enclosed picture calling it tang lang bu chan-mantis seizes the cicada.
But, here he also calls it the "empty posture."

BTW, also included in this pic are interesting facts about this posture.

In his manuscript of the lipi form he calls this posture
"gou lou feng shou" when the posture appears at the beginning of the form.

The gou lou being familiar to everyone from gou lou tsai as in the 1st 3 of 12 keywords in 7* mantis(gou lou tsai gua etc...).
shou-hand
feng -seal

The posture appears again at the end of the form and here it is called
"che bu gou lou feng shou"
che bu meaning to step back which is instantly obvious to anyone who has done this form.

In 7* PM especially from HK as it is best known this posture is often called "tang lang bu chan"
or "kua hu bu chan" as posted by Shaolin Master.

Tang lang bu chan-mantis seizes the cicada
kua hu bu chan-riding tiger seizing cicada.

I have noticed in Wutan publications of Taiwan that they have rewritten this manuscript of Wei's lipi form so that the 1st and last posture of the form are now called "tang lang bu chan"

I highly suspect that this is from being influenced by Huang Hanxun's many published books.

In other Mantis styles besides 7*, mainly those styles descending from Liang Xuexiang this posture is rarely if ever called tang lang bu chan.

Instead we have names such as "tang lang shuang feng xia"
Mantis double seals downward.
Or "tang lang shuang feng shou"
Mantis double seal.

I should mention that this term also appears in Shandong 7*, though I do not know how often it is used.

Also, names such as " yin yang to left and right"

Since Wei is of the Liang Xuexiang lineage then it seems that the name used should follow that as written in his manuscript.

[blackmantis]

I study the eight-step mantis style from Shaolin, I believe that 7* has a similar but different Li Pi Quan form...

In eight-step mantis, is Li Pi an advanced form does anyone know?

Thank you for all your help!

S

[RAF]

http://www.secretsoftheorient.com/secretsoftheorient/Wu%20Tang.htm

Lee Pee (Li Pi) A very powerful from from the BABO or
EIGHT STEP PRAYING MANTIS system. This form is
considered an excellent form for fighting purposes. 22
min.
WT 54

Tang Lang Hand (Tang Lang Shou) This instructor's
form, employs many throws in addition to the "slapping
hand" of Praying Mantis. 30 min.
WT 55

Tsai Kway (Zai Kui. Tony referred to this as Mimen)
This is a "closed door form" and has many exciting
techniques . 27 min.
WT 56

The Wu Tang Forms are being offered at the present
time as performed by Sifu Yang Shu-Ton who was born
and raised in Taiwan.


[ Home ] [ Shaolin ] [ Hung Gar ] [ Praying Mantis ] [
Choy Li Fut ] [ Tai Chi ] [ Wu Tang ] [ Muay Thai ]

I can't answer your question directly but you may want to see a copy of the the Li Pi tape which was made in the 1980s---not self-promotion here because we nolonger hold the rights to the tape(s).

[Three Harmonies]

Depends on what you mean by advanced form? It is my personal belief that their are no level of forms in Mantis, as each set has a specific focus to develope your fighting prowess. All Mantis forms are challenging and difficult in their own right. Li Pi is usually the second set taught in Babu Tanglang after Qi Shou. So for what it is worth......

Cheers
Jake :cool:

[mantis108]

You practically gave away the secret! Careful, we might have to send some ninjas after you. lol... :D Just kidding.

Seriously, thanks for sharing such a wonderful page. I love it when real and useful information is recorded in so few descriptive words. The essence of the stance is so vividly described. Truely a master's work. There's an adage that goes like "Pugilistic form can be taught, while the footwork shouldn't be taught; if the footwork is taught, the student is going to beat (surpass) the master." So one can see the importants of footwork. But then this page just taught the footwork already. So...

As usual, your post is excellent! Mr. Brazier. ;) :D Thanks for sharing.

Warmest regards

Robert

[blackmantis]

Sorry to restart such an old thread again!! Just have two questions...

1) Is Li Pi Straight-sword, just Lipi done holding a sword- is the structure the same? Or is it different but just with similar ideas?

2) Is the two person Li Pi form just one person doing Lipi and another blocking and reacting, or is it different again?

Many thanks!!

S

[Three Harmonies]

BM
Their is no such thing as Lipi straight sword in the traditional Babu Tanglang system!
Cheers
Jake :)

[blackmantis]

Oh really? Okay, what about the two person form?

S

[Forkintheroad]

Jake's right, there is not a Li Pi sword form, but there is a two man form, one of the only 3 two man forms in 8 step.

[blackmantis]

I see, I was really wondering how it relates to the original single person form. Is the two person Li Pi form just one person doing Lipi and another blocking and reacting, or is it different again?

S

[EarthDragon]

Lipi sword form? Andy Miles you are entertaining.. is this a form taught only in indoor/non public/diciple students such as yourself? or to you as part of your $5,000.00 Sifu secret advanced cirriculum? because I, nor anyone else has ever heard of it. I am curious as to who taught this to you and for what reason. Is it power cut holding a a Jian????? Please explain to the board. thanks

[Kagero]

Lipi Straight sword is taught after the sets grade (red sash), so if you were still with the Federation you would of known this by now. You make me laugh:D

[onyomi]

My Shifu teaches a form called lipiquan as a "beginning" form, though of course you could always practice a "beginner" form at an advanced level. I seemed to recall it belonging to Seven Star, but since my Shifu teaches a variety of PM styles it may indeed be Babu. Could you Babu people take a look at this and tell me if it is the same as your Lipi? (You may wanna turn the volume off if you don't like cheesy sound effects).

http://www.kungfuloung.com.tw/sample009.wmv

Thanks in advance. :)

[blackmantis]

It's not exactly the same as my Lipi but I can see some similarities in structure and technique.

Who is the guy in the clip?

Thanks!

S

[EarthDragon]

Kangeroo,
THERE IS NO LIPI SWORD FORM IN 8 STEP PRAYING MANTIS.

Dont you understand that shyun has added filler and watered down the system? There is so much b.s. added that it has distorted the whole style!

Brother.........Cant you see it? Perhaps you do not see it and I dont blame you for defending and justifying what you have been taught. But please dont allow your judgement to be clouded.
All you have to do is wake up and see.... dont take my word for it, do your own homework and compare what you have been taught to everone else in the world of 8 step. is everyone else incorect and shyun is the only one who knows the true 8 step? you can be that naieve.

the new generation of shyuns 8 step is like a cult. they think they have the only real 8 step and everyone else doens know anyhting. it is sadening really.

it took the original students like myself a while to see the light. Why do yo think none of us are with him anymore? perhaps one day you to will wake up and see the truth. untill then keep track of the amount of checks you have paid since your joining the ACMAF is it over a 1000.00 bucks??????????

[Forkintheroad]

The Li Pi in that clip doesn't really look like the version I practice, but mine is still far from what it should be. I don't see this Li Pi straight sword conversation going any where, as I have heard of it in Shyun's curriculum, but not seen it in the traditional. It must be like the mantis ground fighting that only Shuyn knows. It doesn't strike you as odd that a sword form has the same movements as an empty hand form? I could see a concealed knife, or even a meat cleaver used in this form, but the flicking, and circling movements usually associated with that type of sword doesn't seem fit the movements of Li Pi.

[onyomi]

It's not exactly the same as my Lipi but I can see some similarities in structure and technique.

Who is the guy in the clip?

Thanks!

S

He's my shifu, Zhou Baofu. He lives and teaches in Taipei. He teaches a wide range of Northern Praying Mantis styles, some of which he learned from his first Shifu, Wang Songting, and some of which he picked up later while living in Hong Kong. He also does Buddhist Qigong and, interestingly enough, Taizu Chang-quan.... maybe there is some connection?

[blackmantis]

Ah that is very interesting. I know the Wutan version of Lipi which looks slightly different.

About James Shyun- what's the deal with him? Lots of people keep talking about him and describing him as controversial, so what's that all about?

S

[onyomi]

Ah that is very interesting. I know the Wutan version of Lipi which looks slightly different.

About James Shyun- what's the deal with him? Lots of people keep talking about him and describing him as controversial, so what's that all about?

S

Interesting. My Shifu is good friends with Adam Hsu, who I assume must be the head of the Wutan Organization now that Liu Yun Qiao has past on (if the Wutan organization still exists?). They both practice weapons with their respective classes together at Sun Yat-sen Memorial Park and Adam Hsu even saw fit to join my Shifu's "Kung-fu Loung Alliance," as you can see here: http://www.kungfuloung.com.tw/kungfu2.htm
(no, don't hit the English button, please... don't... I warned you.)

But I think my Shifu had already learned all his Mantis before meeting Hsu... so I don't see how a "Wutan version" of PM could have affected his PM (also, doesn't Hsu only do Six Harmony?). Then again, my Shifu has continued to research various forms of Northern PM all his life, so it's hard for me to know exactly when/from whom he learned all the forms he teaches.

[blackmantis]

I don't come from the Hsu line. I am from Liu Yun Qiao -> Zhou Gao Shan -> my teacher.

[onyomi]

I don't come from the Hsu line. I am from Liu Yun Qiao -> Zhou Gao Shan -> my teacher.

This will probably sound ignorant, but Liu Yun Qiao did Praying Mantis too? Which styles? I knew he did Bagua, Baji, Pigua, Mizong and others, but I didn't know he did PM. The PM Adam Hsu knows I thought he learned from someone other than Liu? What style of PM do you practice? Babu?

[count]

This will probably sound ignorant, but Liu Yun Qiao did Praying Mantis too? Which styles? I knew he did Bagua, Baji, Pigua, Mizong and others, but I didn't know he did PM. The PM Adam Hsu knows I thought he learned from someone other than Liu? What style of PM do you practice? Babu?
I don't believe Grandmaster Liu ever taught praying mantis per se. But here is a picture of him next to Ding Tse if that tells you anything.


http://www.privacyplease.net/chikungintl.com/images/masterliugroup.jpg

[onyomi]

You mean the famous Six Harmony PM master, Ding Zi Cheng. I'm not surprised at all that Liu would have known him as Liu was one of the most prominent figures in the CMA community at the time. I'm sure Liu knew PM masters, I just didn't think that Liu himself actually practiced PM.

[count]

Like I said, as far as I know, he just never formally taught liu he tang lang, but he sure knew it.

As far as I know, the only person that he officially promoted was Su Yu Chang. I don't think any of their generations lay any claims, but I doubt Adam Hsu claims to be the head of the Wutan organization either.

[onyomi]

So... Lipiquan is a Babu form and not a 7* form? Or is there more than one version?

[EarthDragon]

Black mantis, you asked

About James Shyun- what's the deal with him? Lots of people keep talking about him and describing him as controversial, so what's that all about?

This is far to complicated to get you up to speed so I will give you the extreme shortened version.

He was my shrfu and I was one of the original 9 students to be certified, promoted and authorized to teach 8 step in the US under him. . After I was certified and moved back to Buffalo NY the controversy started with the inception of the internet brought out other students of Wei Xiao Tung which James Shyun never admitted to and told us he was the only true closed door dicplipe and sole inheritor of ba bu tang lang. and that he had the only true right to pass the 8 step system along. And that he had all the secret books in volumes passed onto him by Wei. After much discovery most of this has been proven to be untrue.

Most of his senior students that felt betrayed and lied to quit his federation. This along with his divorce and falling out with his china medical doctor relocating orginizationin cased him to run into financial trouble. So he created programs within his federtion like the sifu program where you must pay 5,000.00 to be certified and forced what schools he had left to enroll at least 5 students from every school per year into this program to make his a comfprtable living as well as 100.00 a month dues 400.00 uniforms and gold plated mantis pin every instructor is forced to buy and wear.

There are still some young students out there who are blinded by this deception that pop up all the time with like 7 posts under their name and try to defend his actions adn reasons and attempt to justify the throusands of dollars the spent falling into his money making trap. Like kangero, andy miles travis whitman. or this could all be the same person who knows he hides behinsd his alter ego names all over the board.

I will say that Shyuns kung fu is good far better than mine will ever be and he does know his stuff, just embelished a little to much for the quick minded. I respect and appricate everthing he taught me. I just felt betrayed by someone whom I called my father for 8 years.

[blackmantis]

Could someone PLEASE answer my question regarding the two-man form of Lipi!! Is it just Lipi with someone else blocking and reacting to it or is it something different!?

[yu shan]

Hey Black

Good luck getting your answer on lipi partnered form. Maybe people do not know the two man lipi. My teacher has not taught it to me yet, God knows I have enough to keep straight. Next time I see him I will ask how the two man version of lipi goes. I know my older kf brother started on it, but he is at the beginning.

[Forkintheroad]

there's a video called praying mantis films, that shows part of the li pi 2 man form, but I can't remember the web page, if you search the archives I know there was a thread on it quite some time ago. I also have not yet learned Li Pi's 2 man form.

[bokfu]

Onyami

I took a look at your vid clip concerning the "Li Pi" form in question. Answer to that, being a ba bu practitioner... this ain't Li Pi. (You can call a duck a chicken all day long, but at the end of the day, it is still a duck.) The Li Pi form comes from Eight Step and Wu Tang. These two styles are very close to each other regarding the form. Even when Seven Star performs Li Pi, it does follow fairly closely the form.

I see a few remotely similar movements thrown into this man's form such as the clapping of the hands together after an elbow strike representing ba bu's catching the nape of the attackers neck to bring him off balance and forward into a kick, then there is the turning and dropping into a horse stance with an elbow to the kidney and finally near the end, there is the rear leg sweep with a backfist in there somewhere and something similar to our closed door kick. These minor things certainly don't qualify this form as Li Pi. I had to watch this clip multiple times just to catch small items that resemble the Li Pi form.

In all actuality, the form isn't really as big of an issue as the way it was being played if you really want to know if it was BaBuTanglangquan. Forms can vary somewhat depending on how you are taught, but the essence of the style of martial arts is the main thing. Ba Bu has soft style roots coming from Hsing I, Baqua and Taijiquan. These have to be present to represent the style no matter what. You can imitate the form or modify it but without the reasoning behind the movements/techniques it is void. The man in the clip is a hard stylist and looks as though he inserted some items from Li Pi into his style form. This form really looks like a Frankensteined form in my opinion. I noticed a few similar items to other martial arts styles thrown in. These things by no means indicate that he is not a good martial artist, it just means that maybe he has developed his own style from mixing things up in a way. No matter what, this cannot and never will be Li Pi and by no stretch is it at all related to Eight Step Mantis.

Good luck to you Onyami~

[bokfu]

Blackmantis,
To answer your question on the two man version of Li Pi. It is like another form in itself. You have other movements/techniques to learn to be able to do the form. Basically this form splits itself and at one point you may be doing similar attack movements to the one man Li Pi form and suddenly you are doing defensive movements that look like another form. In the mean time the other guy is doing his half which could become part of the one man version of Li Pi himself. It switches back and forth through the whole form. You have to interact, change and remotely stay on track with the single man version.

It is not close to the way seven palms two man form is done where you are either attacker or defender all the way. Li Pi two man form is one of the best two man training forms I have ever used. It covers keeping the distance and closing the gaps to in-fighting to all the techniques you can cram into one form. By learning both sides of this two man form, you may as well say that you have learned an extra two forms in the Ba Bu style mantis! It is also challenging to learn. The best advice on learning this is to try not to consider it being the li pi form, but just countering the other guy's movements. You can recognize it being Li Pi, but don't try to concentrate on the form so much. Let the other person do his part and then you do your part and know that together it resembles Li Pi. Confused enough yet? Once you start to learn this animal, you will go ahhhh-haaaaa... I see!

I hope I answered your question since you seemed to be having trouble getting any info on this item. Take it easy!

Bokfu

[onyomi]

Hmmm... my Shifu teaches that Lipi as a very beginning form... so perhaps he has simplified it for beginners? I also seem to recall him saying it was 7*, so that might explain why it doesn't have the "softness" you described as typical Babu. Does anyone have a clip of the Babu Lipi I can use to compare?

[bokfu]

Hello, Onyami,

Just a heads up... the man in the video calls himself "Kung Fu Loan" (kung fu dragon) and claims to be the final student of G.M Wang Son Teng. Supposedly G.M. Teng chose him to be the final student when he was only six years old. He does not know Li Pi and the form is not Li Pi in no shape, way or form. Whether his style is hard or soft, he is not demonstrating Li Pi (Power Cut) form. It was a hard stretch just to find small portions that resembled anything in the Li Pi form. As far as Seven Star version Li Pi... no way there either.

If no one can direct you to a site on the net where you can see the Li Pi form demonstrated, drop me an e-mail. I have a video clip of myself demonstrating Li Pi from a few years ago and I may be able to get this to you in a reduced size. Check out your online leads first.

Bokfu

[onyomi]

Umm, yes, I know who that man is because he is my Shifu... and the name of the school is Kung-fu Long, thank you very much. I may have studied Praying Mantis for only 2 years, so perhaps I don't know good or bad Praying Mantis when I see it, but I have studied martial arts for over fifteen years, including four years of Southern Five Animal Kung Fu, so I do know good martial arts when I see it--and Zhou Baofu is the best martial artist I have ever met. The video clips may seem hokey and not really do what he is capable of justice. He has a deep understanding of everything he teaches and is also the most sensible and realistic teacher of qigong I've ever met. He also has what I think is a very good attitude toward the study and practice of CMA, which you can read about on his webpage if you speak Chinese (no, don't try to read the English webpage, I know it's embarassingly bad).

His friend Adam Hsu, a well-respected writer and student of Liu Yun-qiao believes in and even writes about my Shifu's version of events in the preface to his book. Hsu studied PM with famous master and student of Ding-zi Cheng, Zhang San-xiang. If Zhou's PM was no good then why would Hsu, a student of Liu Yun-qiao and Zhang San-xiang, support him? Robert Young has said some unkind things about Zhou on this site, and I noticed upon inspection of his website that the curriculum he teaches is very similar to that taught by my Shifu, albeit with more emphasis on Chang-quan than Tang-lang. I have PMed him concerning his "evidence" about my Shifu's early life and it basically comes down to a "he-said/she-said" dillemma. Therefore, unless someone can provide real, specific evidence that my Shifu's version of events is fake, I will continue to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Also, are you saying it is bad Lipi, or bad PM, because if the difference is just that it doesn't look like the Lipi you do, then that could just be that he learned or teaches a different version. How about this video of him performing Yedi Canghua? Would any Liuhe people care to comment?

http://www.kungfuloung.com.tw/Sample002.wmv

[Sifu Darkfist]

Why didnt you say that was your school onyomi? Yes he clearly does much of the same forms as we do even if it is different flavor, He is a well developed Master, and i got news for forumers that challenge his expertise if he is Master Hsu's friend and they both recognize each other than far be it from anyone here to openly question his abilities.

[bokfu]

Onyami,
Please re-read my earlier replies to your posts. I was not judging whether your teacher was good or bad. I stated that the form which he is demonstrating is not Li Pi. As I said before, Li Pi came from two styles of northern praying mantis, but whatever the versions down the line, the form should be similar even if a different flavor. I would doubt that your sifu simplified a beginner form since that would defeat the purpose of the form, which is a learning and study guidance.

Li Pi was created for students to learn techniques and theory just as any martial art form is created. As it is passed on through varying teachers, there will always be some slight variations, but nothing major, such as totally different techniques, movements and paths in the form. There are certain things that have to exist to be that form and more importantly, things that should not exist. Alluding to what my earlier post said, naming a form Li Pi does not make it Li Pi.

So, now, looking at your experiences coming from an adolescent martial artist to a young man, you state that you have learned a lot and know your martial arts. So, this being your sounding board, lets look at this form and use it for educational purposes for others in this forum. If this is Li Pi, why is it Li Pi? Is it because soneone named this particular form Li Pi, or does it follow the original roots and theory? How is it close to Eight Step, Wu Tang and Seven Star? It is considered a beginning form of course... why is it a beginning form: What is the purpose of this form? Would you be able to take this form to the oldest student living that knows Li Pi, demonstrate this form without naming it and have it recognized as Li Pi? Can this form be done with others who know the two man set of Li Pi?

Once you have done some research, post your response, since I am sure it would be informative to all of us, whether beginners or lifetime teachers. If you are residing in Taiwan, locate the original Eight Step School there. I am sure that Master Zhou would be happy to demonstrate Li Pi as well as the two man set for you. This school is dedicate to preserving the Eight Step style as closely to Grandmaster Wei Hsiao Tang taught it and keeping the line pure. It will be your best shot at seeing the original form of Li Pi un-watered down.

Good luck to you in your new found style of martial arts and I hope you have a very good future in praying mantis style.

Bokfu

[onyomi]

What is the name of the original Eight Step school? Do you have an address or phone number where I could contact them? Are you saying that the shifu there is also named "Zhou," or are you talking about my shifu?

As far as the application of the Lipi-quan form as my shifu taught it to me, it seems like one of the most easily applicable forms I've ever studied. All the moves have obvious combat applications. The purpose of the form according to my Shifu is just to familiarize you with a selection of common PM attacks. As far as the name, "power cut," it does contain several "cutting" motions, so I think it lives up to the name. I haven't been able to find other videos of lipi, so if you could post one or email me a link I would appreciate it.

I don't know if my Shifu even does Babu--I think his first background was in Seven Star and Meihua and that he later learned Liuhe while in Hong Kong. It doesn't surprise me, then, that the form he calls Lipi is not the same as your Babu Lipi.

[electric mantis]

Bokfu
Good to see you posting again. It has been a long time so I guess that there must be something up. After I just read your posting I went and looked at the postign by Onyami and followed the link to the vidclip. You know I am 7* and the form I was looking at doesn't resemble what we were taught as lipiquan. Our version looks like your 8step style. We do have the difrent flavor as you had said. Our difference over the 8step look is mainly in stances. I see your stances are more upright like tai chi ppl stances are. I wanted to ask more about the two man lipiquan form you talked about. I did not understand what the form is like. Does it follow the form or is it difrent. If our forms are similar, can 7* and 8step perform lipiquan together? It changes into difrent froms in the middle? ONe last thing not related here. I was told by someone that you are helping teach some former Shyun teachers up in NY? Do you travel up there to teach and do seminars? Does Master Jia Huang Chang go there too. If you are 5th generation under Jiang Hua LOng (2nd under GM Wei Xio Tang) does your students claim 6th generation or 3rd generation?

[K.Brazier]

Bokfu welcome back.
Onyomi,

I saw the clip finally now that I am on an American computer.

It is Lipi, My view opinion varies slightly from Bokfu here.

Zhou has added a huge amount of his personal ideas into the form which makes it hard to spot, but in Taiwan I see this all the time so I am used to it. He does the moves with his own idea of how they are done throughout the form.

Bokfu is right about flavor though.
The 8 Step school doesn't do the form this way.

You want to see 8 Step in Taipei?
Go to Zuo Xienfu's school. Zuo is Bokfu's MA uncle. He was under Wei for a long time and lead most of the classes.
He does nothing but 8 Step and it is 8 Step all daylong.
In fact, It looks like he lives in his school.

He has a huge lineage chart of Mantis in Taiwan covering the wall.

As for Lipi it is Wei Xioatang's form.
Somewhere along the line ZHou's friend or whoever taught the form to him learned it from GM Wei

Otherwise he just got it from book or video.

There also was a video with lipi solo and 2 man form.

I think it was made in Japan. could eb wrong on that. But he students were taught by Su Yuzhang of Wutang.

Zhou doesa large amount of the 7* that was taught in hk. You can also post him doing Beng Bu and see if the 7* people think it looks like 7* Beng Bu.

From what I have seen of Zhou's vids, maybe over 30 or 40 I have seen, and I know there are more, he does Mantis unlike anyone. I don't mean that in a bad way. He has come to his own realizations on how the movemnts are done and a lot of people like his look. If you like it then keep going with it.

Though he says he is Wang Songting's disciple, but he looks nothing like Wang. Gao Daosheng, who does look a bit like Wang Songting doing his stuff and you can still see Gao who did study with Wang Songting. He is in Taepie as well as his students.

Also, there is a picture of Wang Songting with his disciples holding a banner.

And you can see for yourself who the disiples were.
As far as I know that is the only disciple picture.

Also, Wang Songting's MA brother , forget the name, taught in Southern Taiwan.
Funny, but he is listed as one of the great masters that Wei visited when he went visiting MA masters back before the all came to Taiwan.

Onyomi, good luck with your studies.

Kevin

[onyomi]

That's my personal explanation for why his forms might look different... they even look different when he performs them in their entirety vs. when he performs them piece-by-piece. For example, in his Yedi Canghua video, he performs a quan-chui, followed by a feng-shou, followed by a punch. He then explains: You can link all these moves together in one flowing motion. When he practices the entire form he then proceeds to do it all in one flowing motion such that if you're watching it you might be like: "where'd the quan-chui go?" He does the forms in ways he thinks it would be useful to practice them or in ways he thinks represent the application more clearly, therefore when other practitioners see them they say, "that doesn't look like the form I know."

As to how much, if any of his PM he really learned from Wang, I don't know. He does say he learned a lot from one of Wang's senior disciples as Wang himself was too old to demonstrate some of the more physically-challenging moves by the time he took him on. I should be going back to Taiwan in about a month, so I can investigate it some more then.

Speaking of which, does anyone have links to any video footage of Wang himself? People say, "Zhou's PM doesn't look like Wang's," but I've never seen Wang's.

[Forkintheroad]

Bokfu
I was told by someone that you are helping teach some former Shyun teachers up in NY? Do you travel up there to teach and do seminars? Does Master Jia Huang Chang go there too. If you are 5th generation under Jiang Hua LOng (2nd under GM Wei Xio Tang) does your students claim 6th generation or 3rd generation?

I know this wasn't addressed to me, however I am one of the people Bokfu has been helping, as well as my instructor, and a few others. Although I am not a former Shuyn teacher, Bokfu, Master Chang, and other students have been more than helpful, and open with every question I've had, as well as my instructors questions. As for the generation claims, I've never heard him refer to himself that way (Bokfu), and my instructor does not look at himself like that either. I have yet to meet Master Chang, or Bokfu in person, hopefully I'll be able to make the cross country trip some day, and say thanks in person.

Later,
Rich

[electric mantis]

F.I.T.R.
Thanx for the infomation. I was just wondering if bokfu did any seminars there. I am not 8step but am interested in it enough to go to a seminar to see the style diffrences and techniques. I was only wondering about his lineage since Grnadmaster Wei Xiao Tang is well respected in mantis and he tries to follow closely to those teachings via Master JOhn Chang. It is a nice thing for Master Chang andhim to help out others they have not even met.

[Forkintheroad]

I would have to agree. It is very nice of them, especailly concidering they've never asked for anything in return. In a previous posts it seemed you had met Bokfu, but I must've read wrong. I replyed mainly because of the generation question, but it doesn't sound like you heard it from somebody trying to start a political argument.

Have a good one,
Rich

[bokfu]

Hey, Kevin, Rich, and Electric Mantis....

Onyami

I just read your post and I will get the telephone number of Master Zhuo Xienfu's Eight Step Mantis school there in Taiwan. I should be able to round that up for you from my Sifu John Chang later and I will send it off to you in a pm. I think that it will be interesting for you to see the form done in person if you stop by there, since Eight Step Mantis is really a different look from other mantis styles. I have never met Master Zhuo, but I can say from what his peers and my sifu tell me, he is a true gentleman and excellent martial artist. It should be a pleasant visit for you.

As far as the Li Pi form, it is an excellent beginning form, since it is filled with apps that can be used immediately in defense by a beginning student (as well as advanced artists). I think that this is why the form is seen being used in so many styles of mantis and why you will really see a lot of variations in it. It is not as simple as it looks if you break it down to understand what everything is, which is typical of gong fu. Of course this all depends on what depth you want to look... surface of the water or below where the fish live, you know.

Regards,
Bokfu

[bokfu]

Electric Mantis,
Just a note to fill you in, and a quick thanks for Rich stepping up for me here while I was away from the forum. I just help pass on information from my sifu, John Chang and some personal insights to a group in New York because they are really interested in learning Eight Step Mantis according to Grandmaster Wei Hsiao Tang. My sifu, John Chang teaches as closely as possible to the way he was taught by his sifu, GM Wei, so it works out nicely. It isn't that important who was previous teachers under whom, but rather the fact that they want to start carrying on a lineage of Eight Step to keep it alive with a less varied approach. We are presently sharing information digitally long distance. As it is, Sifu Chang has been getting some requests for seminars from different parts of the country, so maybe we will end up in that area if Sifu's time allows.

As far as lineage goes, I really don't care that much about it outside of just getting as much information and knowledge from my teacher passed on from his teacher. I believe that if I did claim anything, I would be more apt to claim a descendent of Grandmaster Wei because my sifu and I feel his teachings were very important/useable and I feel a more direct link to him. I have seen so many people recite lineages over and over connecting themselves to great Masters in martial arts and find that they are inept at martial arts. I just want to grow and understand what this kung fu stuff is all about with my sifu's help!

Almost forgot to answer the questions on Li Pi two man set. It is sort of a loose following of the one man version of Li Pi. The thing is that you sort of share the form with the other person you are doing the form with. You will be doing a portion of the form which follows the single man version and then you will have some additional moves to perform. At that junction, your partner will pick up the form doing the moves which are part of the one man. You switch back and forth picking up pieces of the form until you finish. It is a fun two man form: I actually enjoy doing this form over any other two man form that I have learned.

As far as Eight Step looking so different to your style, it is true we have different style of stances... that is because we are pulling from softer style martial arts. I have mentioned them before. You know, Hsing I, Bagua and Taiji. I look at our style like taking an effective hard style martial art covering of mantis and putting it over an even more effective soft style of martial art like Hsing I. The hard style will work on its own but then if you follow the internal portion, it is that much more effective. So the stances are a hint of what is hidden inside I guess. Take care E. M..

Bokfu