So this is another I know standup game but got sonned by a grappler thread

[diego]

at my new job wich i started three months ago, I ran into a buddy I haven't seen in years, and he was taught enough BJJ to defend himself on the ground, and recently signed up for a japanese jujitsu class and just got his yellow belt...so he is no master, but he punked me good!!!...tells me tappin and turtlen is my motto and sh*t

anyway, I have seen multiple threads like this here (royal dragon whats the link to your i met a wrestler thread?) and cuz of that was prepared to get tapped out when a grappler took me down...the first time he tripped me at work all i could do after about half a minute of groundrolling was just cover myself, and now three months later I'm keeping the knees up, using the legs as defensive tools etc.

My question for now is, can yall with grappling experiance give me some links wich break down the history of BJJ and regular JJ, and how to links from beginner to advanced, video and especially still photo's would be great.:)

in a mad rush and look forward to replys people.peace

quick edit, also tell me about your experiance as stand up fighters learning how to deal with takedowns and submissions.

[Mr Punch]

V briefly, mad hurry...

my aiki evasive footwork has been very good for allowing me to postpone and control the double-leg takedown, as has the suwariwaza - kneework (makes a nice weighted sprawl pretty natural). It leaves you hanging a bit for the single leg though (it's often front-weighted). Of course, if you've learned aiki with jiyu-geiko - free practise/sparring, and henkawaza - changing the technique in the middle to go from one ot another, and kaeshiwaza - countertechniques, any of the throws in jujutsu styles are pretty neutralizable/counterable by aiki. Judo is generally harder. Not much help to you unless you have any exp of aiki, but basically, if you're going backwards you don't ever want to go straight in any direction.

For this reason wing chun footwork, ie the back-weighted flatfooted nonsense, will get you owned like a French tart in fewer seconds than you have fingers. If you practise wc footwork with a lot of stepping offline and transitions from goat gripping stance, pin ma, huen bo and the back weighted stance, you have as good a chance as any. Against stand-up throws and takedowns the opening to SLT is nice for getting foot positions for sweeps and reaps, as is chi-gerk and the huen bo from BG. Against double or single leg shoots you're a baby! The back weighted stance should give you a good chance to get a kick or knee in to the shooter if your timing's good though, and occasionally this is all you need. Wouldn't count on it though.

Boxing footwork is nice for sticking to the centre and drilling in those quick punches to shooters. Unless you have a real killer punch (and I don't think I've seen this happen in the gym or Pride or UFC or whatever) this isn't going to help to stop you going down, but should inflict some damage on the way.

[Mr Punch]

As for history and development etc, search for Judo History, an article by M Tripp... it has some interesting stuff about judo and jujutsu (though of course largely judo biased). If you can't find it PM me.

I have a similar one about BJJ somewhere but can't look right now.

Otherwise bjj.org would be a good place to start.

OK, now I'll bugger off and leave you to the MPs and other real grapplers of this world rather than me with my year or so's exp!!! ;) :D

[Nick Forrer]

I wrote a couple of essays that you might find useful

Wing Chun & Anti Grappling
For the purposes of analysis, Grappling (and thus Anti grappling) can be divided into two parts – clinch (stand up) and ground fighting.

In terms of the clinch

there are a number of wing chun strategies & techniques that should be familiar to anyone who knows the system (different interpretations of the forms notwithstanding) and which can be used to counter various different techniques from the clinch.

For example

In Slt there is;

defence against rear bear hug with double overhooks (raising rear elbows and groin grab/strike)
defence against cross arm wrist grab (turn hand palm up and pak sau the elbow of the hand that is grabbing)
defence against half nelson (straighten arm and turn to face opponent)

In chum kiu there is;

Defence against front bear hug with double underhooks (double eye gouge)
Defence against choke/lapel grab (tok and jut sau together on the elbow of their extended arm.
Defence against same arm wrist grab (turn hand so blade of forearm is next to where their thumb and finger meet and turn and low bong sau to break free.

In Bil Gee there is;

Defence against double wrist grab (Arcing Downwards elbow)

And in the Dummy there is;

Defence against double neck tie (double high palms under their chin)
Defence against double neck tie and knee (Double low palms on their hips)
Defence against take down attempts (neck grab and pull)

These can all be characterised as specifically 'anti grappling' techniques. This is not to say of course that the basic wing chun body mechanics and concepts cannot be used to counter a grappler - they can. I have highlighted these anti grappling techniques purely because they are easy to identify as such.

In terms of the ground

Since the Wing chun fighter is not looking to go to the ground (in accordance with the maxim- do not try and grapple a grappler) if for whatever reason he does end up there (for e.g. if his normally impecable clinch skills have, in this instance failed him, or he has tripped/slipped or he was attacked by surprise) he will in all likelihood be the man on the bottom.

Now there are two variables for the man on the bottom – either the opponent will be in your guard i.e. you will be square on to him with your legs in front of him (which is, if not a ‘neutral’ position then certainly the best of the bad positions for the man on the bottom qua man on the bottom, since it affords him the most chance to sweep, submit, counter strike or escape from the man on top)

Or alternatively the opponent will already be past your guard/legs and will have your flank. In this case the WC player will only have a small window (if at all) to either replace the guard (i.e. to square up) or to stand back up. Otherwise the grappler will be on top of him.

Now if this happens (that is, if the grappler is on top having passed the bottom mans guard) two further variables come into play – space and weight. The top man (grapplers) focus will be on minimising space and maximising weight on the bottom man. He may then strike, submit or move to a better position as he wishes. Thus to escape, the man on the bottom needs to do the polar opposite from the man on the top i.e. to maximise the space between them and to minimise the weight on him.

Before we address the best way to do that though there are two alternative options to escaping in this scenario that merit discussion –

Firstly there is the strategy of striking from the bottom

While this may seem at first blush to be a viable option, there are a number of problems associated with it. These are:

-That any punches thrown will be all arm punches (i.e. with no Bodyweight /Gravity behind them and hence will lack power)
-That there is not sufficient room to adequately chamber and recycle them
-That one is not able to actually reach the desired target in the case of the mount or rear mount.

Perhaps a more plausible solution would be to attack vulnerable targets – but then if the grappler is good he can protect these spots, for e.g. by burying his head to negate biting/eye gouging and keeping his hips low to avoid groin grabbing etc. Consequently it is perhaps unwise to rely on this strategy alone.

The best solution to the space/weight problem, then, is exactly what a grappler would use viz. A combination of bridging (arching the back and pushing up with the hips) and shrimping (turning onto your side and scooting your hips away from the man on top). These two things together, combined with a few other details depending on the context (like sealing off/trapping a side when bridging to prevent the top guy from posting an arm or leg thereby regaining his balance and thus preventing the escape) will get the man on the bottom (provided he applies them correctly) out of 99 % of top pins.

So, having made space and turning to face his opponent, he has now replaced the guard. Here he has a number of options. He can submit, strike, sweep or escape.

Now to go for a submission is to start grappling with a grappler. Moreover a failed submission attempt (such as a triangle or armbar) may result in ones guard being passed.

Another possibility is a sweep. However IME sweeps again involve grappling and are made considerably more difficult when the opponent doesn’t wear a Gi or heavy clothing (though not impossible – the double ankle pick when he stands up in your guard is equally effective in either case).

This leaves striking or escaping. Striking while feasible is not ideal: it is better used as a prelude to an escape. Heels on hips, pushing off and then standing up (correctly) works well if the guy is sitting back. Alternatively, if he is heavy on you you can pull him down and to the right (double handed lap sau) and shrimp your hips out to the left. This will allow you to take the back and thus stand up easily. these are just two high % methods of escape- there are of course others.

To summarise then,

The WC man wants, as a default strategy, to stay on his feet. Thus if he does go to the ground it will be against his will and is likely to involve being on the bottom. If he is on the bottom he is vulnerable to strikes and submissions and his ability to strike (his preferred method of attack) will be compromised. Thus he needs to escape from the bottom as a matter of priority.
To do this he needs to know and be able to apply a handful of fundamental techniques: Bridging, shrimping, how to trap/seal off a side (to prevent them posting a leg/arm to regain their base when sweeping or escaping) and how to block/frustrate submissions whilst trying to escape– arm bar/triangle, RNC etc.

Moreover its not really a question of whether historically Wing chun does or does not have these things– more that even if it does they need to be trained against a skilled resisting partner in the context in question. In other words it is probably unwise to think that there will be a complete and unproblematic crossover of skill sets from stand up to the ground and that therefore one does not need to devote training time to practicing on the ground (especially from the bottom).

Of course there are WC Principles that certainly do cross over to the ground. These include:

- Seek the path of least resistance (don’t fight force with force)
- Keep facing the centreline (don’t let your opponent outflank you)
- Hit the nearest target with the nearest weapon.

But IMO there is sufficient difference to warrant training this range of combat in its own right. In doing so one is formulating a contingency plan - a sensible strategy in many walks of life

[Nick Forrer]

The Core Concept of Bjj is positional superiority – the strategy is to work your way to a superior position, establish control and then go for a submission.

To explain: Basically in ground fighting you are either on the top or on the bottom. As a general rule the guy on the top is in the superior position, and the guy on the bottom an inferior position – In other words the guy on top has the advantage. This is because of the weight factor – being on the top (i.e. pinning him) means you limit the mobility of the guy underneath as well as neutralising any strikes or submissions he might attempt (this is why the priority on the bottom is to escape, not to counter attack).

There is however one bottom position which is not considered inferior (although not necessarily superior): The guard – having the top man between your legs. From here you can strike sweep and submit the guy on top while his ability to do the same to you is limited (although, importantly, not cancelled out entirely). This is why the two most important skills in BJJ are passing the guard (getting past the legs of the man on the bottom) and replacing the guard (regaining it after you have lost it).

This is the basic strategy that ALL BJJ schools follow.

Then You have to distinguish between three types of BJJ: GI, no Gi and Vale Tudo. Vale Tudo is no holds barred (UFC style) and has been going on in Brazil for more than 60 years with the Gracies dominating all other styles (see the video ‘gracies in action’ for archive footage). Arguably BJJ has now divided into these streams and you have to specialise in one if you want to be world class. The top BJJ Vale tudo fighter at the moment is Nogueria whereas the top Submission guys are probably Marcelo Garcia and Leo Viera. Although Rickson Gracie despite being older now is generally recognised as the all around best.

Each stream has different techniques and tactics although the underlying concept is the same i.e. bridge, clinch, takedown, establish position, establish control, submission. To give one example- certain moves from the guard leave you vulnerable to being picked up and slammed – okay on a mat but not so good on concrete. Another example is guard passing. Certain ways of passing you use In sport BJJ leave you too vulnerable to strikes on the street and hence you modify them according.


Another point to make about BJJ is how willing the practitioners are to advance the art. Hence the introduction of wrestling takedowns over the older judo throws, Sambo leg locks, catch spine and neck locks, muay thai striking over ju jitsu atemi etc. Everytime a BJJ practitioner gets beaten they will look at how they got beaten and think about incorporating that move into their game.

Another factor of the efficacy of BJJ is the fact that one of the founders of BJJ Helio Gracie was a small man and hence would often find himself fighting from his back in the guard. This made him develop strategies to fight from there based on the concept of leverage. Hence why smaller people can beat much larger people using BJJ.

[Nick Forrer]

Loads of BJJ vids

to get you started (http://www.abhaya.ca/technique.htm)

[diego]

Mat & Nick, thank you for the replies:)

I just got off work and have to head home soon and go to sleep, but in the next day or two I plan to do an indepth study online, so I will have to get back to you guys on all that was mentioned.

One thing Mat said about don't move back in a straight line got me thinking that's why my boy always stops me from defending his leg grabs...he told me when someone grabs your knee you should shift your wieght back...i was stepping directly back thereby pulling him into me, instead of outside of me...he prolly saw that but didn't say anything as when we were kids i was a foot taller than him and had like 60 pounds on him, so his old ego comes into play, and I know he enjoys tapping me out :D

Gonna try to pull him to the side next time, instead of just trying to run away from his grip during the shuffle back step!.

peace