View Full Version : wimg chun vs multiple attackers

05-04-2001, 05:29 PM
Does anyone train for that? How does your Wing Chun do?

05-04-2001, 06:17 PM
Your ability to weave trough multiple assailants will come naturally when you can beat 1 easily. Try not to run before you can walk.

Big Vern
05-04-2001, 06:52 PM
wing chun's footwork allows u to deal with a number of attackers. the key is to line them up using your footwork and then bridging into the 1st attacker and using his falling weight as an obstruction to the next and so on. this is a similar srategy in pool, lining up your balls as to make your next shot easier.
of course there will be times where the pack will split and u have to try to orbit the outside circumference of your attackers and render them ineffective.
this is trained by our students after perhaps 2yrs of study, where they have developed the orbiting footwork with the centreline seek and diffuse skills needed for such an occasion.
we generally would start with 2 attackers trying to split the defender, then increase to maybe 7 after some considerable practise.
good hunting.

05-04-2001, 07:42 PM
It is good to train how to deal with multiple attackers from the beginning-because many times in a real fight, especially in Asia, you have to fight more than one. I mean, you fight against one guy and then his buddy is also attacking you. Not too many people will start a fight with you if they are alone. One of the first things my Sifu told me when i arrived on Hong Kong-to live and train full time for 6 months- was to be careful because hong kong people never fight/attack alone. One of the best ways in learning to deal with mulitple opponents is to practice the cirlce sparring-such as many have seen Duncan Leung's schools do. One guy attacks you -you attack and defend against him-and next before you even barely finish with the first-the next guy is coming at you. Practise the "man sau" technique to learn and bridge the gap with mulitiple. Best advise-avoid conflict, stay alert-stay alive.

05-04-2001, 08:28 PM
can you explain more how duncan leung's training method's help improve your skills against multiple attackers? i think i've seen the drill you're talking about, where one guy stands in the middle and people take turns attacking him in quick succession. if thats the one, then it seems pretty unlrealistic. no way your attackers would ever circle you and attack you one by one moviestyle.

Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

mun hung
05-04-2001, 09:00 PM
Circle fighting is just an exercise that trains you to defend against multiple attacks from all sides. As your skills progress in the circle there are a few other variations to the circle that are also used, which I'm sure you have'nt seen. Such as any attack in no particular order. There's also a half circle - with your back to the wall and 3 to 4 attackers. Different circle exercises for different skill levels.

An excellent "exercise" that reaps many benefits.

Let's face it. Nothings as realistic as a real fight. ;)

[This message was edited by mun hung on 05-05-01 at 12:07 PM.]

05-04-2001, 09:18 PM
Big Vern, what if you can't line them up? This is something easier said then done in real life, especially if you don't know where all the attackers are or whom they might be. Is there a back up strategy?

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

Big Vern
05-04-2001, 10:04 PM
dear rogue, obviously real multiple conflict is a very scary scenario, we as coaches offer as many tools as we can to prepare the student for this eventuality, but the chaos of real multi-attack can only be dealt with if u have a strong ass-hole and plenty of ammunition e.g. get in their and start destroying heads, use the line up if u can if this fails try to circle the outside of the group and demolish what gets in the way or strike and run like **** looking for bricks/rocks and sticks and keep moving.
u can never replace the adrenalin dump of reality with the class situation, but thats the best any of us can offer.

05-05-2001, 01:14 AM
I think mun hung answered your question for me pretty well. The key is to work the standard cirlce and then also half-circles and multiple opponents coming it at different angles. Agreat one to train is to start against one and then have another attack you from behind . Happens a lot-You are fighting and your opponents buddy graps or attacks you from behind. I once got into an altercation in thailand and had the opponent's girlfriend jump on my back and bite me!

The best thing-avoid a fight. In a real fight there are no winners-usually one goes to jail and the other goes to the hospital.

05-05-2001, 01:48 AM
Dearest Big Vern,
Good answer. I've heard the line them up idea before and it's good if 1. You can line them up and 2. they stay that way. Sometimes the punks just refuse to co-operate, bad upbringing I guess.

I've also had people say never turn your back on an opponent, but that's awful hard in a multiple attack situation where at least one will have missed that lesson and come in on your six. Throw in there the guys who don't understand one punch one kill, they really annoy me.

One thing I've learned, is that in multiple attack the main thing is not to get into a fight. Take out as many as needed to get the he11 out of there.

Then I've only been in one real serious multiple attack situation and it was 4(started out as five but one disappeared) on two. Any others were just brawls and stupid street fights.

The Ever smiling Rogue :D

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

05-05-2001, 06:07 AM
is this circle drill done with a prearranged sequence? or is it completely random? how do you guys train to "feel" or "sense" an attack coming from behind? or do you train being attacked simultaneously by 2 or more people while in the circle?

not an interrogation or anything, just curious to know how you guys train it.

Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

05-05-2001, 06:10 AM
The multiple attacker equation is always looked at from the standpoint of the person being outnumbered. But, have any of you trained from the standpoint of using numbers to your advantage to take someone out?

I have a kung fu brother who is a long-time special operator for the US military, and who put some of us through the motions of sentry removal and "quick killing" using Wing Chun principles at one of our Summer Camps a few years ago. It was very interesting work, to say the least.

Basically, you've got someone that you need to take down/out quick. There are two or more of you. Now, what is the most efficient way of doing the job with the advantages you have in numbers and skill?

For your average group of street-brawlers who set about "jumping" someone, a multiple attacker scenario is a cluster**** from their vantage point because you've got a bunch of guys all trying to score hits on one target at the same time. What invariably happens is they get in each other's way more than accomplish the intended job quickly.

To give you an idea, stand a "victim" in the middle of three or four of your training partners. Designate a person to give a "go" signal. At the signal, all of you try to touch the "victim" at the same time. It's patently impossible.

However, to do it right takes some leadership and coordination. The most efficient way to play it out is for each attacker to take one "job": Top Man, Bottom Man, Striker. If there are three of you, designate two guys as the Controllers - one controls the top of the target's body (trunk and arms) and the other takes the lower half (hips and legs). One guy takes Striker (the guy that's going to do the damage).

For example, lets say you've got two "compatriots" with you and you need to take a guy out fast. You take the lead as the Striker and move toward the Target on his 12 o'clock. Your Controllers flank out on the Target's 2 o'clock and 10 o'clock respectively and move forward of your position a bit to cut off the potential escape routes (and it works best if you've put a wall or other obstacle at the Target's back).

Basically, the three of you are in semi-circle formation moving toward the Target. Once you've got position, the Controllers shoot forward on the flanks. Top Man works to restrain the arms and lead the head, Bottom Man comes in on the other side and uses his hands to lead the hips and stomps with his legs to lock op the Target's lower body movement. Top Man is the one who decides where to move the Target, and Bottom Man follows (you can't be tugging in two directions - no one goes anywhere).

Depending on the environmental circumstances, Top Man either slams the Target up against a wall/vehicle/obstruction, or slams him down to the ground. Once the Target is under some sort of control, the Striker moves in and starts punishing targets of opportunity while the Controllers maintain the struggle. Your job is done when the Target is mush.

There are three basic formations that you can use depending on how many "compatriots" you've got with you. Anywhere from two up to four or five (any more than five and you're just in the way...just sit back and watch the action).

In case you're getting the idea that I have serious sociopathic tendencies (which I do :eek: :D ), these tactics work extremely well for law enforcement officers working suspect arrests. I've "played" with some local sheriff's deputies who work the jail's Emergency Response Team (they basically raid a cell when a prisoner goes nuts) and have worked this stuff to great advantage - not to beat guys down, but make it faster, more efficient, and safer to restrain and arrest unruly prisoners.

My little brother and I practice the "Two Man **ck Job" (as he likes to put it) a lot. If there are two of you and you need to do a "job" you use the above tactics with some slight variation.

You've still got one Striker and two Controllers, but whoever takes the Bottom Man switches up to Striker as soon as the Target goes down. Here's how it plays using a hyposthetical example:

Junior and I spot someone who owes us money. We stalk him for two minutes until he puts himself up against an object (in this case, the Target is lifting the doorhandle to get into his car). I take the "lead" (the one that gives the "go" signal).

On my word, we quickly flank out to the Target's 2 o'clock and 10 o'clock postions, and close quickly. Target spots us coming and tries to bolt at 12 o'clock. Junior and I close together, and since Junior is the bigger of the two of us, he takes Top Man and ties up the Target's arms while I press his hips and land a kick into the side of his knee and start stomping his shins and feet. Target puts up a struggle and Junior leads/rushes him back so the two of us can slam him into the car.


Target is up against car. Junior pins his arms while I take up Striker. *BAM* I slam a groin shot - Target sags. Junior follows him down, slams him against the pavement and moves slightly over to the side a bit to stay out of my way while I start to stomp a mudhole in the Target.

Four seconds later, Target is mush. Junior and I quickly rifle his pockets and car for all valuables, then bolt a safe distance. There we tally up the loot using a quick "loot to debt" ratio to determine if we've got enough to prevent us from paying a follow-up visit to the Target. Then, we stroll along whistling a happy tune.

BTW, the moral of the story is: don't owe us any money. :eek: ;) :D


"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucius

[This message was edited by Watchman on 05-05-01 at 09:18 PM.]

mun hung
05-06-2001, 07:40 PM
The circle starts off with a prearranged sequence - clockwise or counterclockwise. The attacks are called out by the attackers to help the beginner student to practice applying techniques against certain attacks and to get a feel for being attacked. Of course, the circle can get alot more difficult later on according to the students skill level as I've mentioned before. Try it.

watchman - I've got one for you. What's a good way of dealing with a 2 on 2 fight?