wing chun vs kickboxing?

[Reign-Of-Terror]

http://www.wingtzun-eschwege.de/kkb-sparringtreff-200308/Sparringtreff20030802%20048.avi

http://www.wingtzun-eschwege.de/kkb-sparringtreff-200308/Sparringtreff20030802%20049.avi

http://www.wingtzun-eschwege.de/kkb-sparringtreff-200308/Sparringtreff20030802%20051.avi

http://www.wingtzun-eschwege.de/kkb-sparringtreff-200308/Sparringtreff20030802%20052.avi

[Flash]

Some of the worse kickboxing I have ever seen, where's the skilled kickboxer?

[wiz cool c]

That Wing Chun guy was good but those kickboxers sucked.

[Flash]

Why is it when people show Wing Chun sparring videos they always put a skilled Wing Chun guy in the match with a unskilled martial artist. You never get to see the real deal always smoke and mirrors.

[Edmund]

Why is it when people show Wing Chun sparring videos they always put a skilled Wing Chun guy in the match with a unskilled martial artist. You never get to see the real deal always smoke and mirrors.

Funny. Looked real enough to me.

I thought *any* kickboxer could kick a WC guy's butt once they put the shorts on and took a few lessons. Now you need to be more SKILLED at fighting?

Wow! That's pretty logical actually. Guess that's what the videos show.

[anerlich]

Why is it when people show Wing Chun sparring videos they always put a skilled Wing Chun guy in the match with a unskilled martial artist.

Gee, just as well no other martial arts ever stoop to such dishonesty ... :p

[Reign-Of-Terror]

Gee, just as well no other martial arts ever stoop to such dishonesty ... :p

Yea I guess Gracie in action shows very high caliber opponents to the gracie family.

[anerlich]

Yea I guess Gracie in action shows very high caliber opponents to the gracie family.

That's pretty much correct, assuming you are being sarcastic ... though there is a wealth of Gracies and other BJJ practitioners up against elite competitors on Pride, UFC and ADCC vids, etc.. Often winning, though not always. No sane person would say Sakuraba was an unskilled opponent, to name just one.

Was Rickson v Levicki a Rickson vs skilled opponent?

[Reign-Of-Terror]

That's pretty much correct, assuming you are being sarcastic ... though there is a wealth of Gracies and other BJJ practitioners up against elite competitors on Pride, UFC and ADCC vids, etc.. Often winning, though not always. No sane person would say Sakuraba was an unskilled opponent, to name just one.

Was Rickson v Levicki a Rickson vs skilled opponent?

but the gracie in action was basically the only marketing gimmick the gracies had to sway many people over to their style (shows how ignorant the majority of martial artists are). hell for a long period of time people were stupid enough to believe only grappling worked.

[Flash]

but the gracie in action was basically the only marketing gimmick the gracies had to sway many people over to their style (shows how ignorant the majority of martial artists are). hell for a long period of time people were stupid enough to believe only grappling worked.
How true nobody said other MA's did not do this but for the most part they will back up their system in the ring, where are all the Wing Chun fighters oh let me guess to dangerous for the ring. I have seen a few one in the early days of UFC but that fight only lasted less than a minute. This thread was about Wing Chun 2005, not a bashing thread or switch masters thread. I tell my kids this don't worry about what everybody else is doing (what are you doing)

[lawrenceofidaho]

It seemed pretty clear that the guy in videos 51 & 52 was just a WT guy doing a very poor impersonation of a kickboxer.

The guy in 48 & 49 seemed to at least know how to throw halfway proper kicks, but appeared to be setting up his attacks in such a way as to make his WT friend look good....... (If you doubt this, ask yourself why, when facing a guy who's obvious strategy is that of a pure counterpuncher, he didn't throw any fakes, didn't break up his timing, didn't blast in with any hand-range combinations, etc.)

Still, this "light sparring" was a much better display of technique than most "demos"...... I would like to see next what the WT guy looks like mixing it up with medium to hard sparring (w/headgear) where takedowns and grappling are allowed, -and an opponent who is not going so soft on him.

-Lawrence

[anerlich]

gracie in action was basically the only marketing gimmick the gracies had to sway many people over to their style

Hardly the only one. The Gracies did a superb job of marketing BJJ, light years ahead of any other MA. You could say that the UFC and "Choke" were also marketing gimmicks.

WC of course never does anything like this. It was a style developed for by and for women, allows a small person to effortlessly beat a steroid-enhanced powerlifter with ease, and develops your health so that you'll live to 150 or more. It's a complete system, only deluded fools with poor instructors think exploring any other art might have value. And we can't participate in sportfighting because our art is too deadly.

No, there's no exaggeration or falsehoods in WC marketing.


shows how ignorant the majority of martial artists are

The same could be said about anyone who takes any style's advertising at face value.

As combating ignorance is a concern for you, how much do YOU know about BJJ?

You seem to think I'm arguing with you or something. I'm actually supporting your arguments, I think.

[Don J]

Would be cool to see some combinations put together instead of one at a time

[Reign-Of-Terror]

It seemed pretty clear that the guy in videos 51 & 52 was just a WT guy doing a very poor impersonation of a kickboxer.

The guy in 48 & 49 seemed to at least know how to throw halfway proper kicks, but appeared to be setting up his attacks in such a way as to make his WT friend look good....... (If you doubt this, ask yourself why, when facing a guy who's obvious strategy is that of a pure counterpuncher, he didn't throw any fakes, didn't break up his timing, didn't blast in with any hand-range combinations, etc.)

Still, this "light sparring" was a much better display of technique than most "demos"...... I would like to see next what the WT guy looks like mixing it up with medium to hard sparring (w/headgear) where takedowns and grappling are allowed, -and an opponent who is not going so soft on him.

-Lawrence

the videos are from a forum, they organize small sparring gatherings like this, this was supposed to be sparring but it looked like they had something to prove.

here is the forum theyre from:
http://www.kampfkunst-board.com

[Reign-Of-Terror]

How true nobody said other MA's did not do this but for the most part they will back up their system in the ring, where are all the Wing Chun fighters oh let me guess to dangerous for the ring. I have seen a few one in the early days of UFC but that fight only lasted less than a minute. This thread was about Wing Chun 2005, not a bashing thread or switch masters thread. I tell my kids this don't worry about what everybody else is doing (what are you doing)
Only sport styles back their stuff in the ring, no tma styles do. No kung fu do.

there are wing chun fighters who do that stuff. But they hardly ever sue any other techniques than chain punching. Here is a wing chun vs karate mma type of fight:
http://www.bullshido.com/videos/wtvskarate.wmv

Here is some gym that sopposevly teaches fighters who do that stuff:
http://www.combatcentres.com/sijou_rick_spain.html

what about Wong Sheung and the guy who competed in muay thai Gary Lam? Hawkins Cheung also is said to have fought thai boxers. Why does it matter though cause no tma really do well or compete in those venues cause most of them dont cross train in grappling and grappling is the most effective system on earth so anyone no matter what style who doesnt know it will lose to it. Also the mentality is different and weapons and other non sportsmanlike conduct is illegal. Also does this mean tma are all useless and sport styles are only effective. And why dont the old masters of the other styles fight, maybe casue they dont care about it or feel they have anything to prove or want to cross train in grappling just to do it? Or they are turned off by the flashy lifhgts and the rude trashy fans?

[anerlich]

Here is some gym that sopposevly teaches fighters who do that stuff:
http://www.combatcentres.com/sijou_rick_spain.html

Nothing "supposevly" about it.

I'm a part time instructor there at that school. Our Queensland and Tasmanian schools have done very well in Kickboxing, MMA and BJJ recently, plus a bunch of us, including me, are competing in the Machado BJJ state titles this weekend.

[Edmund]

How true nobody said other MA's did not do this but for the most part they will back up their system in the ring, where are all the Wing Chun fighters oh let me guess to dangerous for the ring. I have seen a few one in the early days of UFC but that fight only lasted less than a minute.


Well, we compete in the Muay Thai ring fairly regularly. Winning too.
No JKD guys have entered yet. Guess they were busy watching early UFCs.

[Flash]

Only sport styles back their stuff in the ring, no tma styles do. No kung fu do.

there are wing chun fighters who do that stuff. But they hardly ever sue any other techniques than chain punching. Here is a wing chun vs karate mma type of fight:
http://www.bullshido.com/videos/wtvskarate.wmv

Here is some gym that sopposevly teaches fighters who do that stuff:
http://www.combatcentres.com/sijou_rick_spain.html

what about Wong Sheung and the guy who competed in muay thai Gary Lam? Hawkins Cheung also is said to have fought thai boxers. Why does it matter though cause no tma really do well or compete in those venues cause most of them dont cross train in grappling and grappling is the most effective system on earth so anyone no matter what style who doesnt know it will lose to it. Also the mentality is different and weapons and other non sportsmanlike conduct is illegal. Also does this mean tma are all useless and sport styles are only effective. And why dont the old masters of the other styles fight, maybe casue they dont care about it or feel they have anything to prove or want to cross train in grappling just to do it? Or they are turned off by the flashy lifhgts and the rude trashy fans?
There are many styles that have knee braks, throat strikes, eye gouges and so on like karate but they do not have to use them in the ring to win

[Flash]

Nothing "supposevly" about it.

I'm a part time instructor there at that school. Our Queensland and Tasmanian schools have done very well in Kickboxing, MMA and BJJ recently, plus a bunch of us, including me, are competing in the Machado BJJ state titles this weekend.
Please post some videos

[anerlich]

No JKD guys have entered yet.

The Straight Blast Gym guys have been competing in all styles including MT for a long time. Forest Griffin is their latest MMA success story.


Please post some videos

No. I've seen the crap that goes on when people post vids on here, and I never look at them myself (like the ones on this thread).

If you think I'm making it up, there's ample proof published recently or about to be published in Australian MA magazine, Blitz.

[Edmund]

The Straight Blast Gym guys have been competing in all styles including MT for a long time. Forest Griffin is their latest MMA success story.



I was referring to our local MT events that I've seen.

Not an attack on JKD - By Flash's logic, if *I* personally have not seen any JKD guys competing, then *they* haven't backed it up.

[anerlich]

Edmund: fair enough.

[Flash]

The Straight Blast Gym guys have been competing in all styles including MT for a long time. Forest Griffin is their latest MMA success story.



No. I've seen the crap that goes on when people post vids on here, and I never look at them myself (like the ones on this thread).

If you think I'm making it up, there's ample proof published recently or about to be published in Australian MA magazine, Blitz.
Who cares what others say about someones videos I can post some videos and could care less what someone says.

[anerlich]

Who cares what others say about someones videos I can post some videos and could care less what someone says.

The great thing about a truly free world is the tolerance for varied opinions on how best to conduct oneself.

[Reign-Of-Terror]

The Straight Blast Gym guys have been competing in all styles including MT for a long time. Forest Griffin is their latest MMA success story.
Thats not jeet kune do, thats mma, they only use the jkd handle to cash in on Bruce lees name. Hell even on mma.tv when they recommended gyms on the main forum there for mma training someone mentioned straightblast gym and I said its a jeet kune do gym not mma they all disagreed and flamed me saying hows its mma and nothing to do with jkd. Hell they dont really train in jkd styles in their curriculum, but standard mma, they dont even have trapping range.

[anerlich]

they only use the jkd handle to cash in on Bruce lees name

God forbid that any other JKD, or WC, organisation would ever try to cash in on some tenuous association with the great man :p


I said its a jeet kune do gym not mma they all disagreed and flamed me saying hows its mma and nothing to do with jkd

I guess their "Functional JKD" DVD series (vols 1&2 out already, #3 in production, some of the best MA instructionals ever produced) kind of bursts that particular balloon, don't you think? They obviously think they are doing JKD even if a few internet naysayers feel differently.

"JKD purist" is an oxymoron in any case. "Jun Fan JKD" might be something approaching a "pure" style, but that becomes a circular argument too.


Hell they dont really train in jkd styles in their curriculum, but standard mma, they dont even have trapping range.

Huh? You just said you were arguing that they were a JKD gym on the Underground, now you're saying they aren't.

What is "standard MMA"?

They think trapping doesn't work and replaced it with MT and wrestling based striking and grappling in the standing clinch. What they do is demonstrably effective.

I think St Bruce himself would cringe at the notion of "JKD styles" - I also think he'd be heavily involved in MMA if he were still alive, though that's pure conjecture.

[Reign-Of-Terror]

Huh? You just said you were arguing that they were a JKD gym on the Underground, now you're saying they aren't.

What is "standard MMA"?

They think trapping doesn't work and replaced it with MT and wrestling based striking and grappling in the standing clinch. What they do is demonstrably effective.

I think St Bruce himself would cringe at the notion of "JKD styles" - I also think he'd be heavily involved in MMA if he were still alive, though that's pure conjecture.
I meant they dont train jun fan, sticky hands, trapping, much weapons or any of that stuff. the standard mma stuff is what they do, basically bjj + muay thai.

[Reign-Of-Terror]

some more wing chun fight clips I found:
http://www.wingtzun-eschwege.de/wmkfight/wmf/index.htm

[Flash]

some more wing chun fight clips I found:
http://www.wingtzun-eschwege.de/wmkfight/wmf/index.htm
Nice but are these not wing chun against wing chun and when did Yip Man teach grappling

[anerlich]

I meant they dont train jun fan, sticky hands, trapping, much weapons or any of that stuff. the standard mma stuff is what they do, basically bjj + muay thai.


And boxing, and greco-roman and freestyle wrestling. They also do stickfighting and are affiliated with a knife system called STAB, and have several LEO related programs as well.