BAH!!! Rant mode on!!!!

[Merryprankster]

I'm annoyed.

I've been teaching some classes a lot lately at an affiliate school.

I had to have a talk with this one guy. We did about 35-40 minutes of scissor sweep and escape drills in the no-gi class, and I told everybody who was staying for gi to grab their gear, and get back on the mat cause we were going to be working on the same thing.

As the class dissolved to go get their stuff, he goes "We're going to do EXACTLY the same thing?" I said yes, and he rolled his eyes and said "aw man," shaking his head.

FWIW - he's the only one that seemed to have a problem with this, in fact, two were begging me to do more repetitions. I also never teach more than one move per beginner class. Too hard to absorb for beginners.

At that point, as people in the gi class were warming up, I saw him in the adjoining room, so I walked up to him and gave him a small lecture, more or less, telling him look - I can show you a new move every five minutes if you want, but it's not going to do you any good. The scissor sweep and the escape I'm showing are the foundation for every sweep and escape you will ever learn. Now, if you want to just show up, that's fine, but if you want to get good, you do it by doing the same thing over and over again. Now, you can do what you want - if I were you I'd put on your gi - but understand that what I'm saying is not a reflection on you as a person - I'm just letting you know what choice you have in front of you - whichever you choose is fine.

He looked like a wounded puppy, wouldn't look me in the eye.

So later, as I've got people running through positional sparring work at the end of class, he asks "what were you saying again about that, like before?" So I got down and showed him how all the sweeps incorporate elements of the scissor sweep. I showed him how the escape I was teaching is fundamental. I also told him that I think he's got some potential, and grasps things quickly, but that it will never matter if he doesn't get the basics.

He seemed to get it.

Wrong.

A few days ago, we were going over a particular guard pass, and as I'm correcting it, he tells me "Well, I'd rather do a lock here, because I feel off-balance..." I cut him off and said "Yeah, well, that's because you won't put your foot where I'm telling you to put it. If you do that, you won't be off-balance."

(He did do it right, eventually, he's not ungifted, just obstinate).

So, last night, I've got guard passing positional sparring drills going on, and an old wrestler keeps doing inversions on him (getting back to his feet/knees and driving him over) to sweep him, and he's getting frustrated, especially since my wife is lasting longer than he is out there. And he mutters "**** wrestlers!" So I tell him "Hey, keep your weight on him, hold his leg, something to keep his back flat. That's how you handle a guy like that. You make space and try to pass the way you are, quick and slick, and you'll let him up every time. Tight is the way you need to pass this guy."

So he gives me the evil eye.

Compounding this was the fact that my wife kept passing HIS guard. He was REALLY ****ed by that, and starting trying to muscle her around because of it after about the 5th time. He got frustrated and says "well, I try to rely on submissions from there," and I'm thinking "while somebody passes your guard you're trying to submit them? WTF?!" Maybe later, as you get better you can catch somebody in transition, but not when you can't even defend the pass!

Now, I've already given him a ten-dollar beatdown to demonstrate the point...without using my arms...only bodyweight and legs. Sweeping, submission, pinning, the whole works.

And boy howdy was he ****ed about that!

He's the king of excuses and that's what really makes me mad. I empathize because it was only recently that I was able to excise that from MY training mentality, but I don't sympathize.

"**** wrestlers,"
"I was tired,"
"Couldn't use submissions,"
"Well, you've been doing it longer."

It's just starting to be a problem for me because his attitude is sucking the life out of class. I have to work really hard to keep the intensity and focus level up when he's there because he acts like "It don't matter, none." Every movement is lazy, from walking over to the center when I'm demonstrating something, to the actual repetitions, unless he decides he's interested.

Ok. I feel better now. Just needed to get this off my chest.

[Ray Pina]

Oh, you have one of those students that know better than you even though he's turned to you for training.

Seems like you've been cool and tried to show him the way. That's the most you can do. Now just keep your mouth shut and take his tuition and he'll see.

Three months from now everyone will progress and he'll be the same. He'll either wake up, remain hard headed or leave.

[Reggie1]

There's one in every bunch. It's almost like there has to be. It sucks, too, because it can suck the life out of your training.

[Merryprankster]

Ray, yeah, kinda.

If I directly tell him to do it, he does it, grudgingly.

The other day he was droning on about the advantages of.... something. And I'm sitting here thinking "Ok. Well, you make fundamental errors constantly. You don't know enough to know what you believe in."

It's more the excuses thing though. That really ****es me off because I know what it can do to your whole game.

[David Jamieson]

You can look at it as though it is an opportunity too merry.

I mean ask yourself "How do i teach this guy?"

problem students are students too. Frustrating as they may be, to take the opportunity will only make you a better teacher.

[Oso]

lol, welcome to the club.

I liked what you said about 'choices' early in the post...been saying that a lot lately.

it's totally frustrating when people won't 'empty their cup' as it were and just learn.

[Merryprankster]

You can look at it as though it is an opportunity too merry.

I mean ask yourself "How do i teach this guy?"

problem students are students too. Frustrating as they may be, to take the opportunity will only make you a better teacher.

To some extent. But it's one thing to figure out how to convey information and another to try and adjust somebody's attitude.

The first makes you a great teacher or cornerman.

The last makes you a great coach.

From the carrot perspective, the kid needs his ego stroked a little, so I'm trying to figure out how to do that without catering to it. I don't want him to think he's doing the right thing because he's not.

From the stick perspective, the problem is that he can hold his own against everybody else because he's reasonably athletic. I mean, yeah, I can beat him and so can some other guys, but we all outrank him by a lot. That doesn't sell when you're prone to making excuses - we're SUPPOSED to beat him!

I'm thinking of working hard with one other guy who isn't nearly as athletic, but does EVERYTHING YOU TELL HIM. He's getting good fast. Maybe if he gets knocked down in the hierarchy he'll start paying attention, LOL.

[Merryprankster]

I liked what you said about 'choices' early in the post...been saying that a lot lately.

Yeah, once I realized that a lot of things were about choices, it made a big impact in my training.

I chose not to let go, and my grip is much stronger.
I choose not to get tired, and I don't.

Etc. Those are specific examples. Conceptual level is more nebulous, but possibly more valuable. I chose to mentally prepared for the Pan-Am championship and I was. Huge difference.

The problem comes when your goals and choices don't fit! And every choice is composed of sub-choices/tasks you have to complete to reach your goals....

Ok, I'm babbling.

[Oso]

I just had a discussion with a couple people about their choices for training.

a pretty classic example of older students getting disgruntled by a new student coming in full of **** and vinegar and getting down and training.

the older students were coming to 4-6 classes a month and did that for about 6 months.

the newer student who came in right when they started slacking comes to 12-16 classes a month.

so, the new student was learning quicker and combined with a naturally superior physicality has zoomed ahead to the point where she is more competant with all the material than the older students.

the ****in and moanin got back to me and after some thought I simply took the roll sheet to them and asked them to look at it and then tell me if they thought there might be a reason that the new student has excelled.

not much they could say about that.

I just wrote a big note on the mirror in the school:
"Are you training NOW?"

so, they are back in at least two days a week and coming to 'open floor' on saturdays.

heh, sorry to bust in on your rant....

[Ray Pina]

One thing every martial artist needs to learn is that sometimes -- actually most of the time when you are around your coach, teacher, seniors, etc -- you need to shut the he11 up and listen. Forget what you know, forget what you think you know and just do as you're told. Don't ask why. Don't asky for the counter, just do what the teacher is telling you to do.

When you have it so so, understand it a little bit, then maybe ask, "But what if" .... but I think you have to earn that "What if"

I'd tell the guy straight out, "Hey, you have a lot of talent and that will get you so far. But against a biger guy, or a well trained guy, your instincts are wrong and will get you beat. So you can keep doing what you want to do or you can listen to someone who is more skilled and experienced than you .... it's up to you. But I won't keep going back and forth like this because it's wasting the classes time. When you understand a little more we can talk about these things, or, you can always try it after class."

Of course, if he takes you up on the after class offer you have to be a little rough and crank him a bit so he understands you can take him out just like that.

Good luck man. That $hit sounds frustrating as he11.

[SevenStar]

I'm thinking of working hard with one other guy who isn't nearly as athletic, but does EVERYTHING YOU TELL HIM. He's getting good fast. Maybe if he gets knocked down in the hierarchy he'll start paying attention, LOL.


that's actually not a bad idea. BUT, since he's the type that needs his ego stroked, knocking hm down won't help. However, it may help fix his mindset - show him what can happen when someone with the right attitude and training ethic steps up.

[David Jamieson]

You know merry, there's an old cma saying, goes something like:

"Without tasting bitter, you cannot fully comprehend sweet"

Get the guy to taste a little bitter...heh heh, I'll bet it shores up the poor attitude and will make him better for it.

[Reggie1]

Get the guy to taste a little bitter...heh heh, I'll bet it shores up the poor attitude and will make him better for it.

I had a friend like the guy MP is talking about. He was on our basketball team, and constantly made excuses for his underperformance. Our coach tried just about everything to get him to be a team player to no avail. Even the 'taste a little bitter' was tried and failed. Sometimes I think there are just people you can't get to.

The guy ended up quitting basketball because he felt like he was better than he really was. He couldn't understand why he didn't get more playing time, despite the fact that he never performed well. Sometimes people just can't see past themselves to the reality of the situation.

[Merryprankster]

Ray,

I've already kicked his ass several times without using my hands and arms. The message can't be clearer.


Get the guy to taste a little bitter...heh heh, I'll bet it shores up the poor attitude and will make him better for it.

Nah. His ego is too fragile for that. He'll just quit.

[MasterKiller]

Nah. His ego is too fragile for that. He'll just quit.
Maybe that's the best thing for your club. Unless you're out to change the world with martial arts, I don't see the point with wasting too much time on people like this.

[SevenStar]

Has he competed yet? If so, how does he handle losses with such a fragile ego?

[Merryprankster]

7*,

I don't think he has. I think he has this idea of being an MMA fighter, but the reality is that I don't see the heart for that. I think it can be developed, but not on his current pathway.

[yenhoi]

I like the straight forward approach. Tell him how it is.

None of this nonsense about drving away your students/training partners.

You could also bring in someone who is your superior and get your ass handed to you a bit. Thats always a good demo to have on hand. Same guy could probably give your pal or the whole group a little verbal push.


;)

[IronFist]

Dam.n, I wish I still had a submission school to train at.

[g0pher]

There is student at my school who is the same way. He's taken 4 martial arts and has quit them all and believes he can hold his own against a lot of the guys who have been training for over 10 years at the school. It drives me nuts because he won't listen and makes himself feel like a big man by beating up on new students during sparring. Although he has quit his other 4 arts, he does have the advantage over a new student who has never taken a martial art before because he has grasped some aspect of striking and throwing... Man I just feel like putting my hand through his face writing this.

And the worst is he disrespects other students by stretching in front of them while they are eating or putting his feet directly in front of their face.

[lada]

Oh, you have one of those students that know better than you even though he's turned to you for training.

Seems like you've been cool and tried to show him the way. That's the most you can do. Now just keep your mouth shut and take his tuition and he'll see.

Three months from now everyone will progress and he'll be the same. He'll either wake up, remain hard headed or leave.


This is an ugly post in my opinion. Take his money and keep your mouth shut? If that is really how you feel, you should be up front and honest and set the guy down and ask him to leave. You are dishonestly taking money from him when you have no intention of teaching him.

I don't agree with the "3 months from now he will wake up". People are not stupid nor are they deaf and blind. In reading the original message, it is clear that the writer is angry. Do you think this guy in class is stupid? He can feel and hear the anger and derision in the instructors voice. I would guess he acts obstinate because he feels like he has been disrespected.

There are all kinds of people so it is hard to say. Did you watch Ultimate Fighter on Spike TV? If you are dealing with people like that, hard people who won't listen and might be dangerous, then you have to be hard with them. But if you are dealing with regular people who are learning for fun or for health or whatever, you won't get very far being hard, dismissive, curt, angry, disrespectful etc to them.

Let's say you are a student in a class and you want to learn. Then the instructor comes over and tells you in an angry tone of voice that you are a problem. What do you do? You want to be in the class, you don't want to leave. You want to do what the instructor asks you. But like all men, young and old, you don't want to be pushed around, ordered, made to feel like a slave, embarrassed or shamed.

People are different. There is like an animal inside of you. People whom this animal has not developed very much are easy to deal with. When you tell them to do something, they do it because they don't know any better. Realisticly, they are slaves to your or anyone elses orders. Then you got the people in who this animal is well developed.

These type of people will instinctively resist any type of control. Verbal or Physical. It is their very nature that if you try to make them do something, they will resist. I don't think they can control it. I know if I get that way I will not listen to reason. All I see is someone trying to control me and I will resist any way possible. It is an instinctive animal thing.

The original poster would need to look at this guy and decide. Is he resisting because he thinks I was rude to him and this is the only way he can get even? Is he resisting because he wants to quit class, he just doesn't realize it yet? Is he resisting because he is one of these animal type people and it is very very hard for him to cooperate? Is he resisting because he is a jerk and wants to cause trouble for everyone in the class? Does he even know he is resisiting? People can blind themselves to their own behavior. He may think he is being cooperative.

This is where kung fu and learning to fight seperate. If people are learning to fight, the advice goes one way. If you are learning kung fu as a way of life and to make yourself a better person, then you would need different advice. Fighters are hard and tough and would never talk to a person to find out their problems or try to fix them in an understanding and soft way. A kung fu person understands that until a persons mental problems and situation are sorted out, they will never be a powerful kung fu man. No matter how much they practice, half of their energy is stuck in their head, tied up in those mental problems.

[SevenStar]

This is where kung fu and learning to fight seperate. If people are learning to fight, the advice goes one way. If you are learning kung fu as a way of life and to make yourself a better person, then you would need different advice. Fighters are hard and tough and would never talk to a person to find out their problems or try to fix them in an understanding and soft way. A kung fu person understands that until a persons mental problems and situation are sorted out, they will never be a powerful kung fu man. No matter how much they practice, half of their energy is stuck in their head, tied up in those mental problems.

I agree with everything you said except for this. kung fu and "learning to fight" are NOT different in this respect. If you are not mentally into what you are doing, you will not do it well. A fighter with no heart will never be much of a fighter.

[No_Know]

Reading it occured to me that you beat him with less options but if he's trying his hardest he is processing and doesn't register input. If you can meet him with resistance and absorb his attemts or hinder instead of complete cut-off the speed difference messes-up his metered comprehension and breaks his focus--it takes longer than it should so he steps out of the attempt and conciously looks at what's wrong (while still trying to fix it). You have the presence of mind to read him and the experiences/abilities to match and cover him. He'll probabally start talking during and ask you what you are doing. Or he will break and complain in some way.

You've met me and gone a round with me. So whatever you thought of that. Plus that I go by the ID No_Know. My presume above occured to me when reading this post. Hopefully it matters.

I No_Know

[rogue]

Work with the people who are there to learn. It's not fair to them if someone is taking up more class time for no good reason.

[SevenStar]

Dam.n, I wish I still had a submission school to train at.

How far are you from one?