Headbutts and Elbows in mantis

[shirkers1]

This topic was brought up in another thread and I'm moving it here to see what you guys have to say about it....

In our line of mantis headbutts and elbows are everywhere and used in close quarters for striking, locking, and blocking offense and defense. In a lot of competitions elbows and headbutts are not allowed and some namely the UFC allow elbows but not headbutts. In the street and in the ring I feel that the elbow is a far more deadly weapon than a headbutt. Yes if used properly in close quarters using the head to split down on the nose or smash up into the face is a great tool and believe me I use it when I can. But I find the elbow to be more useful and you will have a better chance at causing more damage to the oponent with less chance of injury to yourself... Because an elbow is pretty much delivered on a tight hook line or sinking line, more power can be generated therefore more force transfered onto the target. So where I like both I don't see where one would be allowed and not the other. The only thing I can think of is that a blow given with the head could cause damage to yourself if executed wrong therefore not allowed because of that.

So what are your thoughts on elbows and headbutts in mantis being used in the street and in the ring? Why one and not the other, or both at all?

[mantis108]

Well, I think the idea of limiting the use of headbutt in venue such as UFC has more to do with reducing the rate of cuts wounds rather then head trauma for any combatants. I think we have seen fights being stopped because of deep cuts caused by "accidental" headbutts. However, there is no stoppage ever happened because of a knock out by headbutts. The implications are that:

A) headbutts are dangerous as cuts will happen and the sport will be deemed as violent because of the amount of blood spilled (that's civilized world for ya); therefore, it does little to promote the sport.

B) headbutts aren't exactly the deadly knock out punch that Shaolin 36 Chambers movie portraited it to be.

But then there are very nice headbutt moves in Mantis. Elbow and knees are a definite A+ in mantis. So...

Mantis108

[Lu Bu]

I think that an elbow is a more dangerous weapon than a headbutt. You can really ruin someone's day by headbutting them full on in the face, true, but considering that the very tip (NOT the surrounding area) of the elbow is more or less unbreakable, I think it is a far deadlier weapon. Headbutt to the ribs would make me laugh, but an elbow to the ribs with a moderate amount of force would probably make me cry. :( Headbutt to the face will probably put me in the hospital, but an elbow to the right part of the head will very likely put me in a body bag. I am much more likely to use an elbow in a fight.

[shirkers1]

thanks guys, lu bu I agree I believe and have seen the elbow cause more damage and with less risk of damage to yourself. An elbow to the face will open someone up in a heartbeat.


If I headbutt someones elbow who will win? :D

[Three Harmonies]

Both are effective in their own right. One should use these techniques (any for that matter) as they are needed. One cannot think about the move they will make, they must "feel" it. It does not matter which technique does more damage if you have the mindset that you continue attacking your opponent until he moves no more ;) ! Then you can analyze your victory! :D

Jake :cool:

[shirkers1]

um excuse me sir but could you please post your response under the mindset thread? :confused: I don't know why you have to be a money grubbing jerk and hi jack my thread.. :mad: Just kidding :D

I see your point jake and agree but as an individual weapon given the oportunity to use either when needed both will be used by me.

But my question was what do you think about the two weapons and why one is allowed in the ring and not the other.

[Reggie1]

In the street and in the ring I feel that the elbow is a far more deadly weapon than a headbutt.

I think they are different tools. To me, headbutts are great when you can't elbow, or for surprising your opponent. A great example of this is the classic 'tough guy' who will get up in your face w/ his hands at his side. You can still appear non-threatening by keeping your hands down as well and then just pop him w/ the crown of your head.


But my question was what do you think about the two weapons and why one is allowed in the ring and not the other.

The #1 reason is cuts. With elbows you have a good chance to cut somebody, but with headbutts allowed you've doubled that. Both your head and his are subject to being cut.

[BeiTangLang]

****phobes?? Easier to be blood splashed in the eyes that way maybe??

[Oso]

Reggie1: 'crown' of the head? I'd think that would be the last place to use. I've always done head buts with the two outside front corners of my head...if you go from the outside of your eye socket and go strait up your skull the two hardest points are right at the hair line.

i've seen crown of the head hits to the body (solor plexus)...in fact, the two person application shown on Kevin's tape for Ba Bu Lien Wan has a headbutt to the SP. it's an application done when the opponent has your arms and you can't use them....sorta a sneak move a bit.

but, for front of face contact, I wouldn't use the crown...just my opinion of course.

can anyone cite a form where the basic (not extrapolated) application is a head butt?

[mantis108]

Any bodily weapon needs to be train for it to be effective IMHO. I know there are people who are born with physically strong bodily parts and there are naturally gifted fighters as well. But the average or under average person such as yours truly would need proper training methodology to help even the odds a bit. That's where Tanglang's Gong comes in. If we want the headbutt to be effective, then we will have to training it properly.

One thing that is rarely trained in TCMA is the neck. If you think that the hardness of the skull does the trick for headbutt, I would advice you to think again. IMHO it is counter productive if you neglect the training of the neck muscles in using headbutts. It's even suicidal. So training focus should not be just the hardness of the skull but also the muscle groups that supports the head.

In CCK TCPM Sau Fa/Shou Fa, we have a move in section one that is called Iron Ox tilts the earth. BTW, I don't translate this as Iron OX Ploughs the Field due to the fact that there is a core strength training move with the same name. Anyway, it is a headbutt move that could be translated into double or single leg shoot depending on the situation.

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

A) headbutts are dangerous as cuts will happen and the sport will be deemed as violent because of the amount of blood spilled (that's civilized world for ya); therefore, it does little to promote the sport.



that is a very good point. Elbows can also cause cuts, which could be part of the reason why elbows to the head aren't used either.

[SevenStar]

Reggie1: 'crown' of the head? I'd think that would be the last place to use. I've always done head buts with the two outside front corners of my head...if you go from the outside of your eye socket and go strait up your skull the two hardest points are right at the hair line.

i've seen crown of the head hits to the body (solor plexus)...in fact, the two person application shown on Kevin's tape for Ba Bu Lien Wan has a headbutt to the SP. it's an application done when the opponent has your arms and you can't use them....sorta a sneak move a bit.

but, for front of face contact, I wouldn't use the crown...just my opinion of course.

can anyone cite a form where the basic (not extrapolated) application is a head butt?


I've always referred to the crown as the back area of the top of the head. From your description, you are talking about the very top. Think about muay thai plam technique. The hands are cupped around the top-back area of the head, preventing you from raising it - that is the crown. If you are doing a reverse head butt, you would strike with that area.

[SevenStar]

I think that an elbow is a more dangerous weapon than a headbutt. You can really ruin someone's day by headbutting them full on in the face, true, but considering that the very tip (NOT the surrounding area) of the elbow is more or less unbreakable, I think it is a far deadlier weapon. Headbutt to the ribs would make me laugh, but an elbow to the ribs with a moderate amount of force would probably make me cry. :( Headbutt to the face will probably put me in the hospital, but an elbow to the right part of the head will very likely put me in a body bag. I am much more likely to use an elbow in a fight.


you are talking about a different issue. you are talking about target areas. you wouldn't headbutt anyone in the ribs anymore than you would elbow them in the buttocks. the headbutt is for weak, bony areas of the face. That, as you said, will ruin someone's day. The elbow is more versatile for sure, but that doesn't correlate to being more damaging.

Also, then it comes to face contact, the point of the elbow is not used - unless you are doing a side elbow or stabbing elbow. The stabbing elbow has about the same travelling distance and lack of an arc that a headbutt does - damage may be about the same.

an elbow to the right area of the head can hospitalize for sure, but what happens if I have your arm trappedand extended, and headbutt the back of your elbow? I can break your arm pretty easily, theoretically.

[Oso]

I've always referred to the crown as the back area of the top of the head. From your description, you are talking about the very top. Think about muay thai plam technique. The hands are cupped around the top-back area of the head, preventing you from raising it - that is the crown. If you are doing a reverse head butt, you would strike with that area.

you're right, the crown is slightly back from the top of the head. but that makes it even more impossible to do any sort of 'forward' head butt. you could hit the face if you were grabbed in a rear bear hug I guess but i don't think that would work a whole lot of the time unless the 'hugger' has no idea about burying his face in your neck/back.

to clarify: imo, the only points on the head that should be used to administer a forward head but are the upper left and right areas of the front of the skull.

where the x marks are (about) in this pic

[SevenStar]

agreed. As I said above, the crown is only for the reverse strike - your example of an attacker being behind you - or, if you are under your opponent. For example, you duck under my hook punch, step in and come up with a reverse headbutt.

coincidentally, I saw several headbutts in the capoeira class last night. Their targets were the face and sternum. The sternum hit was more of a set up for a takedown, while the facial ones targeted the nose, chin (reverse headbutt) and the cheeks.

[Oso]

ahhh, I hadn't thought about coming up from the bottom...I'll have to ponder why...it would be a definite sneak and could drive the chin up pretty hard, especially if you rose w/ your body at the same time for follow through...and then an uppercut punch to the chin to seal the deal...I like it!

it could even set up some throws.

as I talked about above, so far in Pong Lai I've seen one in a form but it's an eagle claw form coopted by Master Shi for our basic curriculum...but, as I'm learning, there is a definite continuity throughout the curriculum. so, I expect to see more.

[Oso]

ahhh, I hadn't thought about coming up from the bottom...I'll have to ponder why...it would be a definite sneak and could drive the chin up pretty hard, especially if you rose w/ your body at the same time for follow through...and then an uppercut punch to the chin to seal the deal...I like it!

it could even set up some throws.

as I talked about above, so far in Pong Lai I've seen one in a form but it's an eagle claw form coopted by Master Shi for our basic curriculum...but, as I'm learning, there is a definite continuity throughout the curriculum. so, I expect to see more.

[shirkers1]

Yeah we do that one a lot. Shooting up from underneath with your legs and smashing into his face or chin. We like to grab the back of the head or neck and pull in at the same time we're doing this adding more impact.

The downward splitting where you drop your weight and nodding your head forward at the same time splitting his face in a downward motion is a nice one as well.

When you're on the ground say in a mount position and you're in the blocking position (hugging) with your face buried in his chest so he can't hit you shooting up with the top of your head into his face is a nice one as well. It's more of a tag that is meant to open up for another strike not really a fight ending blow.

When your hands are tied up and you're in close like that hitting, pressing, pusshing with the head is something we like to do a lot. It's a break tactic to jolt the oponent into freeing your arms up to strike with them. Usually an elbow when in close like that. Whenever we're in a close hooking range you'll see a lot of elbows flow out hitting what ever is there. Destructions or main targets the elbows are great.

We like to use our whole body for that last example or breaking off when in a clinch, shoulders, elbows, head, hips, legs not just the hands and feet but all parts of the body (like mantis108 stated). We call it breaking off...

[Oso]

...i'm thinking that from underneath like that I probably go for a fireman's or a back heel trip versus thinking about coming up with the head like that...just hadn't thought about that one before...

mark, this is aside from this topic but did you see the guy pimping Shifu Biggie's Jow on the main forum? heading out to class or I'd a pm'd you...

[shirkers1]

Well being from a boxer background bobbing and weaving dropping down with your legs and shooting up is second nature so it was already there. Using the legs as your main source of power generation to deliver the blow. I don't know if you caught us doing any of this in ohio with our footwork etc. Think of it as ducking a strike and shooting up with it. You being a bigger guy I bet you like to get in and get a hold of someone and put them on their heads. :) Smaller guys like me need to bust up the other guy as much as possible so it doesn't turn into a strength issue. That is where these little things like tight elbows and headbutts (knees) come in. :)

No I didn't see the pimpage I'll have to look into that. Thanks.

I can't find where the guy is talking about his jow.... where is it?

[Oso]

'check' on the bobbing and weaving: I had the opportunity to spar with a pro, mexican boxer a year and a half ago or so...got my ass handed to me by his rules. fuggers don't bother blocking :o :p :D

I did better against him the second and third time but still not great.


You being a bigger guy I bet you like to get in and get a hold of someone and put them on their heads.

who? me? ;)

pm'd you on the other.




quick! we need to get back on a mantis track...


so...it seems, by the lack of response, that there aren't a lot of head butts in mantis forms.

how do they come into the system then? Jiben Gong? One of the 8 'points'?

In one of the other systems i did the head was referred to as the "3rd Fist".
There was an attack sequence/theory that had you attacking with the foot, ankle, knee, hip, elbow and head as a drill.

anything like that in anyone's mantis curriculum? It supposedly came from "Tai Tzu" but I can't validate that claim.