To fight or not to fight?

[GreenCloudCLF]

In the martial arts, and especially Kung-Fu I have noticed 2 trains of thought in relation to fighting.

One says a true master can avoid a fight. He knows the ramifications for fighting and has no need to prove himself.

The other says how can someone who has never used his/her techniqes in combat say they work. Theory is one thing, practicality is another.

Now I know sparring and working self-defense in a "live" manner helps with some of this. But some techniques you cannot truly practice: such as breaks and eye gouges and the like. You can work applied pressure on some techniques, but in combat speed is of the essence to avoid major resistance.

So my question is, what are your feelings on ability to train realistically, or relying mostly on theory and heresay?

[Fu-Pow]

In the martial arts, and especially Kung-Fu I have noticed 2 trains of thought in relation to fighting.

One says a true master can avoid a fight. He knows the ramifications for fighting and has no need to prove himself.

The other says how can someone who has never used his/her techniqes in combat say they work. Theory is one thing, practicality is another.

Now I know sparring and working self-defense in a "live" manner helps with some of this. But some techniques you cannot truly practice: such as breaks and eye gouges and the like. You can work applied pressure on some techniques, but in combat speed is of the essence to avoid major resistance.

So my question is, what are your feelings on ability to train realistically, or relying mostly on theory and heresay?


The questions you ask age old are they and never be answered they will.

Self-Defense Guys="Our techniques are too harmful for the ring."

Sport Guys="If you can't apply it in the ring you can't apply it in the street."


I guess we could put an end to the question if a self-defense guy entered a MMA-type competition and broke somebodies arm or popped out their eyeball!!!! :p :rolleyes: :D

[bodhitree]

I agree with both philosophys to an extent. I don't think anyone should go around getting into needless fights. However until you put in into practice, as an indivisual you will not be able to know. Then, the more you fight, the more you can relax(i use this word losely) and use good technique. The first fight you get into, probably not so much. Its like performing in front of an audiance. The first time your nervous light headed ect. but soon you lose that fear and just do what needs to be done.

[David Jamieson]

principles, speed and power development in my opinion do not equate to theory or hearsay.

for instance, everybodies elbow doesn't bend backwards. this is not theory, it's simply true. If you apply speed and power against an elbow joint in the direction opposite to which it is supposed to go, it will strain and possibly break.

If you apply speed and power in a throat strike it can crush the esophagus.

That's what tapping is for in the cases of crushing power usage. :)

as for striking, wear gear and go as hard as agreed upon.

"for real" fighting and full on sparring are not all that different except that you know there is an element of courtesy for each and you can go hard and still leave your ego at the door. If you get angry everytime you eat one, then you simply aren't ready for that kind of play yet. If you eat too many, you need to practice more to shore up your defense capability.

eye gouges, throat crushing etc etc are kind of what ya would call known hurters. It's soft tissue and you don't really need to do it to know it will cause significant damage. You can train the targeting techniques using a variety of methods.

Principles drive techniques. Kungfu practice and the techniques within are drawn from application of same and handed down to us. We either use them when required to do so or not.

You don't need to shoot someone to know a gun will kill them when you hit a sensitive target.

Resistance isn't the only thing opponents apply too. The also avoid, evade, redirect, absorb and attempt to dissolve or neutralize your attacks. Many of your attacks may come in the form of a counter. Some will get in, some will not.

as for weapons, that's a whole different scenario and there are methods of control for bladed or bludgeoning weapons and it takes time and practice to get those principles into you too.

still, one cannot assume to know the outcome of any given confrontation despite their training. Better to be strong, trained and prepared than to give up on some postulation that you don't know if something works or not because you haven't tried it. Once you understand how a human body moves and how it doesn't move, you'll get more out of training those techniques that are particularly vicious without having to actually use them on a live target.

remember, recycle your training partners or you won't have any. :)

[Ray Pina]

If I train to jam up all your striking and deviler a clean shot that you can't stop ... and I do that to you while free figthing .... but I also train a certain kind of finger power and can strike something as hard as your sternum in free play with my fingers and not be damaged .... well, when free fightingm, if I jam you up, could my free clean and clear strike be a finger jam to your throat or eye?

I've never done it, but I've landed plenty of clean and clear shots.

This is a clear, unobstructed shot to the face .... it could just as easily be a thumb to the throat, or a forearm to the neck/collar bone.

However, this is different than guys saying they don't fight because they are too dangerous. Yes, they are too dangerous. You beat their a$$ good and then they sew you.


You have to learn, train, drill THEN test. That's the only way. If you don't test against outsiders you're fooling yourself.

[MAC]

There's actually a thread eslewhere that got into a similar question. I won't/can't judge anyone else but the question arose about exactly why someone trains a "martial" art ? Is it a hobby, for health, for self-defense, ego, peace of mind ? Perhaps for the sport or competitive aspects that might be involved, like tournaments or competitions ? .. to gain discipline and self-confidence (buzz words used a lot in marketing) or perhaps just to acquire the skills to fight ?
I am asking specifically in terms of a "true" and "traditional" martial art/style. Not contmeporary "wushu" or that Paul Mitchell Karate stuff (imho = very athletic, but still gymnastics, dance).

Do you get in trouble with your sifu if you get into a fight ?

[Fu-Pow]

However, this is different than guys saying they don't fight because they are too dangerous. Yes, they are too dangerous. You beat their a$$ good and then they sew you.

I don't think that's ever been the argument of "being too dangerous" except from quacks maybe.

The argument is over whether or not "sport" fighting translates directly into greater ability in terms of real world self-defense.

I think there is definitely a transfer of some techiques from self-defense application to sport fighting application.

However, many styles of kung fu have a diverse range of techniques.....some that were developed with the sole intent of permananently damaging the opponent by injuring the head, spinal cord, soft tissue (eye attacks, throat strikes) or connective tissue (joint locking).

Those are usually barred from "sport" competition for obvious reasons. However, in a self-defense situation they could be decisive...especially if faced with multiple opponents in a life or death situation.

Therefore, my philosophy is that you should train the techniques that are not likely to cause permament injury in real time. Train the tehniques that are likely to cause injury through drills and other exercises.

That way you walk into a fight with real-time experience as well as the techniques that can end a fight quickly and decisively.

Don't throw out the baby with the bath water. ;)

[WinterPalm]

Fu Pow, that last sentence is what my Sifu talks much of in regards to JKD and other arts that move from the self-defense arena and into sport, or, onto just using techniques that can be applied in full force.

On another topic, there has been much anger from the Gracie family about the fact that sport jiu jitsu is not incorporating a lot of techniques that would be very ill advised to be used in the street where many variables are present that are not in a controlled environment. I really enjoy full contact sparring with friends but that to me is just experience and sparring in the kwoon and self-defense drills that come very close to execution of lethal techniques is more important. That is just how I feel about this.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Color me ignorant...but who is Paul Mitchell? I have seen his name appear several times but have not heard of him. I am assuming it is not the guy who makes hair carre products.

[Ray Pina]

The argument is over whether or not "sport" fighting translates directly into greater ability in terms of real world self-defense.



If you are fighting all out, wether in the ring, street or just getting together with like-minded martial artists, you are gaining valuable experiencing and receiving real time feedback.... things you can't get doing line drills.

That's it. It's the simple truth. You become a better surfer by surfing as much as you can, a better lover by making love often and with different women, a better fighter by fighting big guys, fast guys, ground guys, kickers, all types of guys.

You can convince yourself that forms and freindly drills will give you this but it won't. Forms will train your ability, drills will give you an idea of how things work, but fighting is fighting. Do you even have the nerve to apply your stuff? Only one way to find out.

[Fu-Pow]

If you are fighting all out, wether in the ring, street or just getting together with like-minded martial artists, you are gaining valuable experiencing and receiving real time feedback.... things you can't get doing line drills.

Uh huh....



That's it. It's the simple truth. You become a better surfer by surfing as much as you can, a better lover by making love often and with different women, a better fighter by fighting big guys, fast guys, ground guys, kickers, all types of guys.

Ray, it's not that simple. The whole question is whether "sport" fighting make you better at self-defense. Its a part yes, part no answer. Yes in the sense that the you can practice the techniques that translate to sport fighting in real-time. Yes in the sense that you will have more confidence based on experience.

No, in the sense that you can't practice techniques that would more quickly and decisively end a fight.

I've heard story after story of guys who were good technical fighters who got there ass handed to them by someone who was more ruthless and fought "dirty."

Guess what about 50% of kung fu techniques would qualify as fighting "dirty" by sport standards. So you just throw out 50% cause you can't spar with it in real time?


Doesn't make sense to me. :confused:

My philosophy is to train that 50% in other ways and combine it with the experience in free fighting.

[David Jamieson]

Color me ignorant...but who is Paul Mitchell? I have seen his name appear several times but have not heard of him. I am assuming it is not the guy who makes hair carre products.

oddly enough...it is the hair care products guy. he sponsors a musical karate dance squad and has ninja like powers when it comes to stiff and goopy hairdos.

seriously, it's the same dude