Reign of Terror.

[Mr Punch]

You've no how idea how dumb I felt even typing your 'name'...

Just a couple of questions/points:


hey Im not tyring to disrespect you or your teacher I am just curious and like bullshido would like proof before believing everything I hear.You're disrespecting him by even writing such sh!t on that thread. Do some ****ing research other than just hanging out at Bullshido.

You don't believe everything you hear, but you're quite prepared to believe stuff you haven't heard of... :confused: :rolleyes: :p ... like this:


Ive never heard of those punches being in many if any chinese curriculums and even if they were one hand is generally on the waiste not on the side of the head like a boxer (more ala karate).So how much experience do you have in CMA, other than the usual 'scientific' method of searching the net to find pictures that support your preconceptions? The Chinese arts I've had personal experience (even if just sparring guys from these styles - yes, sparring) of are wing chun (long time), pak mei, yang tai chi, chen tai chi, northern longfist, some kind of mantis, and hsing yi. ALL of those styles use a hook and an uppercut, and NONE of them use a hand by the hip. I've also sparred shukokai, shotokan, kyokushinkai, seidokan and zen shin karate (an offshoot of shotokan), and NONE of them have used the hand by the hip either (a la karate?!). Do some ****ing research.

And as for the hands by the head thing, oh, do some ****ing research! I do boxing, MMA and kung fu, and without those big-ass gloves on to close protect your head and face those boxing hooks are much harder to set up... try it again with MMA gloves. Think about it... (http://www.savateaustralia.com/Savate%20Essays/Bare-Knuckles%20to%20Modern%20Boxing.htm) The boxing guard with the gloves by the face is great because big gloves won't fit through... but why do you think the Thai stance has the elbows perpendicular and the hands up?


I was talking about generally western martial arts style footwork not just boxing but included in this would be kickboxing, savate, and fencing. I doubt any sanda schools use bagua or monkey style footwork cause its not as effective.Based on what experience? Do some ****ing research. And where the **** do you think 'kickboxing' comes from? You think that's a 'western' MA?


If that is the case why isnt he the ufc champ? and why havent you tried learning from him?I like driving, but I don't wanna be an F1 racer. Same with, well, a hell of a lot more people than those who DO wanna become F1 racers.


but didnt you backout of the challenge ray (evolutio fist) gave or was it some other llama guy?Ask Ray. No Lama people backed out. Even if they refused, doesn't mean they're backing out... it's a difference of maturity. BTW, the spelling is Lama, do you honestly think it is funny, or you are 'owning' someone by spelling it 'llama' or are you just a moron?

I mean seriously, how old are you? You say you're trying not to disrespect people, then you ask questions which show a basic lack of understanding of what you think you are talking about, and then come it with passive-aggressive BS.

[Reign-Of-Terror]

I havent officially trained in kung fu but read alot on the net, bookstore, watch documentaries/movies, watch clips on the net I can find, also I read kung fu/tai chi/and vairous other magazine each month in the bookstore, which pretty much gives me an idea what it is. I hell of know more than the millions of mma and bjj nutriders that post on various kung fu forums badmouthing it so at least give me some props for that. The stuff Ive seen rpetty much shows in both forms, demonstrations, and technique training one hand on the hips while the other punches. heck watch the chen tai chi form done by chen xiaowang to see what I mean or again look at the pciture I posted in the other thread.


I've also sparred shukokai, shotokan, kyokushinkai, seidokan and zen shin karate (an offshoot of shotokan), and NONE of them have used the hand by the hip either (a la karate?!). Do some ****ing research.

They dont use it in sparring but they do in training techniques. And it gives a bad habbit where at least biggeners will drop their hands after they punch or after they get tired.


And as for the hands by the head thing, oh, do some ****ing research! I do boxing, MMA and kung fu, and without those big-ass gloves on to close protect your head and face those boxing hooks are much harder to set up... try it again with MMA gloves. Think about it... The boxing guard with the gloves by the face is great because big gloves won't fit through... but why do you think the Thai stance has the elbows perpendicular and the hands up?
Actually you can protect your head the same way as with gloves but you use the backside of your hand (dont curl it into a fist like with a glove) and it will hurt but alot less and wont do much damage from a bare knuckle punch, or you can put your hand on the back of your head or the front of your head and block with the forearm/elbow. And the thais sue boxing guard because they learned in the apst that boxers have betetr hand offense and defense and adopted it for muay thai.


Based on what experience? Do some ****ing research. And where the **** do you think 'kickboxing' comes from? You think that's a 'western' MA?

well mt is obviously thai, but kickboxing basically had its start in the U.S and has alot of influence fomr boxing (definetly the west) so it would pretty much make it western.


No Lama people backed out. Even if they refused, doesn't mean they're backing out... it's a difference of maturity.
So by your logic Chan tai san wasnt very mature than?

[anton]

To add my two-cents worth: It is my experience that in CMA it is more common to have the non-striking hand held open in front of the body at around the shoulder of the striking hand. Part of the rationale being that it has less distance to travel if you need to use it to block a strike for instance. Although the hand is occasionally held at the waist, I have only encountered this in forms and find that far more often the hand is held as previously described.

[Dale Dugas]

Please........

Another no name fool.

Post less and train more, ROT then you might have more to share with us who have.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hey, I'm lost here; What was the challenge that some Lama People backed out of? I have never heard of this? It is true? Who is the challenger...and the challeng-e? Someone please fill me in on the story?

[SevenStar]

They dont use it in sparring but they do in training techniques. And it gives a bad habbit where at least biggeners will drop their hands after they punch or after they get tired.

there's a reason for it... look into the applications of forms.



Actually you can protect your head the same way as with gloves but you use the backside of your hand (dont curl it into a fist like with a glove) and it will hurt but alot less and wont do much damage from a bare knuckle punch, or you can put your hand on the back of your head or the front of your head and block with the forearm/elbow. And the thais sue boxing guard because they learned in the apst that boxers have betetr hand offense and defense and adopted it for muay thai.

No. Watch a thai person fight - you will typically see very few punches, and the ones you do see are typically straight punches. Watch the thai footwork - it's different from boxing footwork. You won't a thai bob and weave. Most of the western boxing seen in thai boxing is an adaptation made by the western world - thais don't use them. The boxing guard is split - some use it, some don't.




well mt is obviously thai, but kickboxing basically had its start in the U.S and has alot of influence fomr boxing (definetly the west) so it would pretty much make it western.

actually, there are people who will tell you that MT is kmer, not thai... kickboxing started in the us, but what is the foundation for it? karate. the point karate guys wanted harder contact than was allowed in the point sparring venue.

[WanderingMonk]

Hey, I'm lost here; What was the challenge that some Lama People backed out of? I have never heard of this? It is true? Who is the challenger...and the challeng-e? Someone please fill me in on the story?

He is referring to the time when you got a call from Ray about coming down to your school and hoping to see lama pai in action so to speak.

because of the insurance situation, you decline to play.

so, based on R-O-T's logic, Ray issued a challenge and it was unanswered, hence backed out.

it is a whole different game when people have to pay bills and keep a roof. one shaw movie too many for him.

[Mutant]

I havent officially trained in kung fu but read alot on the net, bookstore, watch documentaries/movies, watch clips on the net I can find, also I read kung fu/tai chi/and vairous other magazine each month in the bookstore, which pretty much gives me an idea what it is.

Well, you can give a kindergardener a library pass to the MIT library, but that doenst mean he'll understand the resources within. Not really a knock at you, but you can't possibly expect to know what some of these guys are really talking about with your level of exposure and experience with CMA. Youre wearing diapers when it comes to the world of CMA, and very much out of your league in debating with guys like lkfmdc. Youre in no position, nor do you have the tools, to accuately evaluate some of these things. You cite things that the guys on mma.tv or bullshido say about this or that, when guys like Sifu Ross are widely regarded as the most experienced authorities on those subjects on those very same forums, and held in high regard by forum members there that actually have a clue. The problem is that many of the guys on those sites don't have a clue. You come on here trying to superimpose some kind of bogus quasi-scientific bullshido methodology onto others (most of whom have plenty of well documented information here and other places that is no secret and easy to find), and who youre clearly out of your league with, yet don't provide your own experience, name, and fight/track record, a total double standard and half-azzed approach. Youre probably considered a loser on the forums that you imply that you represent.


well mt is obviously thai, but kickboxing basically had its start in the U.S and has alot of influence fomr boxing (definetly the west) so it would pretty much make it western.

They are NOT the same...
SanDa had a whole different evolution path than westernized kickboxing.
--> Full contact karate tournament rules spawned kickboxing here in the 70's
--> Chinese military distilled sanda drills and competition from different traditional kung fu styles over the course of the last century. Designed to quickly produce dangerous and effective soldiers. It is a methodology for training certain CMA skills and techniques. Yes some suface things might look similar to a nooB (and there are only so many ways the human body moves) but there are even more differences in principle and details. Have you not heard that 'the devil is in the details'? And the big-picture appoach is very different too. If you don't think that SanDa techniques exist in TCMA then thats your misconception and youre wrong. You get caught up looking at some of the superficial icing decorations and fail to see the cake.

Just because YOU can't see it or understand it, doesnt mean its not not there. You just hold some common misconceptions. You dont' have enough experience with CMA to see the principles.

ROT, people wouldn't have a problem answering your questions or helping you learn something if you are genuinely interested, IF you didnt come off as a rude, clueless jackazz. Maybe reevaluate your approach and at least provide all of your own info if you want to play that game. Or better yet, just save that cr@p for over at bullshido, that approach does have some merit, but its not the nature of this site, and not everyone has something to prove. Just try to enjoy the CTS stories as most of us do, without being an ass about it :rolleyes:

[Reign-Of-Terror]

No. Watch a thai person fight - you will typically see very few punches, and the ones you do see are typically straight punches. Watch the thai footwork - it's different from boxing footwork. You won't a thai bob and weave. Most of the western boxing seen in thai boxing is an adaptation made by the western world - thais don't use them. The boxing guard is split - some use it, some don't.

I guess your right but again it depends on the gym/camp. Each gym/camp is different. The camp where m teacher was taught had a big boxing curriculum anyone could learn alongside or even by itself boxing and it was a big part of the strategy at that camp. It was sityadong or something along those lines with sayat. My current boxing coach said the kickboxers hold their punches horizontal sometimes instead of vertical and punch straight instead of turning their punches when they throw them which he says isnt as effective and theyre now learning to do it the boxing way.

[SevenStar]

I guess your right but again it depends on the gym/camp. Each gym/camp is different. The camp where m teacher was taught had a big boxing curriculum anyone could learn alongside or even by itself boxing and it was a big part of the strategy at that camp. It was sityadong or something along those lines with sayat. My current boxing coach said the kickboxers hold their punches horizontal sometimes instead of vertical and punch straight instead of turning their punches when they throw them which he says isnt as effective and theyre now learning to do it the boxing way.

they punch that way for a reason - they also tend to angle their punches downward - using gravity to assist the power of them. before the current muay, muay thai - was a muay called muay kaad cheurk - this is where the use of hemp to wrap the fists was introduced. I'm sure that stuff caused cuts pretty easily, and I KNOW elbows are good for opening cuts. With a boxing punch the turning of the wrist adds snap and a little extra power, but the big thing is that the leather twisting against a person's face can open up cuts due to the friction produced.

Like you said, it depends on the gym. If I am at a gym that specializes in knees and elbows, I likely don't particularly care how much power the punch has - I only want to use it in a way that allows me to get into knee and elbow range.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hey, hey hey. Someone here suggested that Ray Pina challenged me to a fight? I don't think so. Ray Pina called my school for information regarding classes. He informed me of his experience and if he could spar with some students. I did not deciline a challenge, there wasnt' one to decline! If that was a challenge, I'm a bit long in the tooth, because this must be a new method all those young kids are using today!

Ray, sincere or not, did not challenge me or my students. He said that he wanted to see if his tai-chi was any good. As I mentioned in a previous post, I said to test it on Tai-Chi people.

When I said that I do not have my students spar with people off the street, he question me as to why. I informed him that it is not my policy to do so and I'm not covered by my insurance company if something were to happen.

Think about it; Why would I, or anybody for that matter, put my livelyhood at risk because a stanger, whom I know nothing about, wished to test his martial muscle against a student, or even me?

Senario 1
I indulge Ray. We fight. I hurt Ray. Ray limps home. Or worse. Then..I get a call from NYPD or papers from Ray's lawyer wanting to sue me for 'beating up a prospective student.' No good for me. Not really too good for Ray either.

Senario 2
I indulge Ray. We fight. I get injured. I can't teach or have difficulty teaching. Ray hurt too. No good for me. Not really too good for Ray either.

Senario 3
I indulge Ray. He hurts my student. My students limps home. I get papers from my students lawyers. No good for me.

My two Kung-fu schools will generate over $900,000 this year (Kung-fu has been good to me) Do you think that any of you, given my position, would jeapordize that for a guy I don't even know?

I'm sure Ray is a nice guy. He was nice on the phone and I'm sure he's a good martial artist. He was invited and agreed to take a class last Saturday and he later declined to show up. I wish him the best in his pursuit of the truth.

Does that clarify this for everyone? I'm sure that Ray Pina will collaborate.

[Reign-Of-Terror]

ok I see what your saying, I guess the ray guy is a bit hot headed.


Like you said, it depends on the gym. If I am at a gym that specializes in knees and elbows, I likely don't particularly care how much power the punch has - I only want to use it in a way that allows me to get into knee and elbow range.
A. most gyms outside of thailand dont work much with elbows cause they are illegal in most venues in the West.
B. Elbows are hard to get to work cause you have to be pretty close to your opponent almost if not if in clinching range, hence why they arent used too often in mma or even mt in thailand. And
c. They are hard to get good at or train with aliveness.

[Reign-Of-Terror]

by the way someone on bullshido said the gracie family still has an open door policy in regard to challenges. So if thats true and they havent been prodecuted or ran into any toruble with the law Im shure nobody else would. hell they even videotaped the fights and the cops still didnt care and nobody even sued them for using their name or their image to advertise themselves. So that pretty much tells me that challenges are just as accessible today as they ever were. Heck you can also get weavers to sign so they cant sue you or do anything to you if you injure or kill them during the fight as well.

[Reign-Of-Terror]

where are you getting that? dude, you need to really be on a forum a little longer to judge a personality like that; Ray, in my limited (but still way more than your) contact with him via PM and publically on the forum, seems anything but hot-headed - in fact, he appears to be pretty cool and calculated in what he writes and in his approach to fighting; and he is always polite to a point;
ROT, could you please stop practicing the Foot-In -Mouth -Style so arduously? we all get that you're eager-beaver about being on the post and exposing all the fallacies and foibles you've discerned, and we thank you for it - it's nice to have someone around to keep us honest from time to time; now, how about you take a well-deserved rest, maybe just hang back for a few days and give yourself a little more time to really get a sense of who the people are on this forum; maybe come back after you've studied some kung fu for a while so you can speak with a bit more direct experience about the main topic of this forum



prodecuted: what hapens when you get disciplined with a cattle prod
toruble: what Sifu Chan Tai Shan used to turn various types of masonry into
shure: ROT's response when asked if he was ok after that nasty blow he took to the head...
weavers: those weavers, they'll sign anything to get you to buy their goods...

ROT, you might want to either re-hydrate or again, get some rest: I think you've been in turbo charge mode for the last 2 or 3 days, and the sleep deprevation is catching up with you; when you come back, I hope that it's with a little more tact and decorum, and actually, it would be great to have you back because you do ask some really good questions, make some good points: just try to resist the urge to jump to premature conclusions and try to be a little more respectful when addressing people you really don't know and who are graciously tolerating the opinion of someone who's never even practiced CMA...

Are you serious? He practically laid out a challenge for this entire forum for a prize fighting match with $500 on the line saying he wont fight in a professional match cause his secret techniques will be revealed to the public. On top of it he challenged me on bullshido just because I made a comment about him not having a video clip even though I live on the other side of the country from him. He also said another forum member who does kung fu and constantly defends it on bullshido (who I think is banned there now and who Matt Thornton made fun of cause he was so threatened by him) named Djimbe saying he talks alot of **** when he was defending kung fu vs like 50 posters in this oen thread.

[g0pher]

If you believe what you say, why do you have to defend yourself? Your frequent response conveys your weak convictions ROT. You read your magazines, online articles, and image search horse stance. You are an expert and no one can take that away from you. :)

Just like the other 3 billion or so males on the face of the planet.

[Reign-Of-Terror]

I never claimed I was an expert but have a fascination with all kinds of ma that I look into, read about, etc. I know a lot about famous kung fu masters and enjoying reading those stories. Heck I know more about cma than the majority of posters that bash it on forums such as mma.tv or bullshido.com

[Judge Pen]

ROT is Ralek's little brother.

You "read" the Gracies have never been "prosecuted" for their open-door policy, so you're sure that no one else would be either. In addition to reading about all the kung fu masters have you been reading the law too?

[brothernumber9]

ROT,

I can't blame you for thinking you know some things because you read them from books or magazines, they are after all, some of the only easily found and accessible sources. The only problem is that most magazine articles and books only give an introductory description or overview on the styles and individuals they cover, otherwise they risk losing the reader from the beginning.

Having said that, probably everything you have read or learned about every Chinese martial art and martial artist is only superficial. Don't take this the wrong way but the names of Sifu Chan Tai San, White Haired Devil, or any other famous name you may have come accross, Chan heung, Hung Hei Gwan, Li Zi Ming, Wang Zi Ping, Lee Koon Hung, Lum Jo, Lum Sang, Lau Fat Mang, Chan Hok Fu, Wong Fei Hung, Tarm Sarm, etc. on and on and on, should never come out of your mouth or keyboard anymore as if you know anything thing about them, or have the knowledge to speak for them or their respective lineages, teachings, disciplines, or personal history, especially of fight experience and knowledge.

[SevenStar]

ok I see what your saying, I guess the ray guy is a bit hot headed.


A. most gyms outside of thailand dont work much with elbows cause they are illegal in most venues in the West.
B. Elbows are hard to get to work cause you have to be pretty close to your opponent almost if not if in clinching range, hence why they arent used too often in mma or even mt in thailand. And
c. They are hard to get good at or train with aliveness.


A. YOU were the one who brought up schools in thailand, so that's what I was referring to. As for the US, you can use elbows in modified thai matches in a few states. Two I can think of off the top of my head are vegas and colorado.

B. Elbows are used quite frequently in thailand. I've got several vids of elbows in action. Knees are more common, but elbows are used.

C. That's what thai pads are for.

[SevenStar]

I never claimed I was an expert but have a fascination with all kinds of ma that I look into, read about, etc. I know a lot about famous kung fu masters and enjoying reading those stories. Heck I know more about cma than the majority of posters that bash it on forums such as mma.tv or bullshido.com


that's great and all, now here comes the question....



How much actual training do you have?

[Reign-Of-Terror]

A. YOU were the one who brought up schools in thailand, so that's what I was referring to. As for the US, you can use elbows in modified thai matches in a few states. Two I can think of off the top of my head are vegas and colorado.

B. Elbows are used quite frequently in thailand. I've got several vids of elbows in action. Knees are more common, but elbows are used.

C. That's what thai pads are for.

not really, they arent used that often in thailand, shure in some fights they are but msot of the time its hard to see one even being throws. on the jkd forum in mma.tv somsone even said they are too hard to pull off and arent really worth training too much (and those guys are experienced mmaers, Ill also try to look up that thread). hitting pads only really adds power and some technique, it feels alot different aming for a head especially a moving head hat has arms hitting you back at non telegraphic locations.

[Reign-Of-Terror]

that's great and all, now here comes the question....



How much actual training do you have?

I have about 2 and a half years or so of mt experienced, I trained other stuff less than that and recently have stopped muay thai and mostly jsut trian boxing. The hand posisioning, punches, defense, etc. is superioor in boxing for the upper body and it is easy for me to modify my stance when kicks are allwed and when i want to kick. but when I charge in with jabs even against mt I use the boxing footwork, only change my foot to face a pyramid like stance (vertical and horizontal in the middle of the vertical foot) when I am pacing slow.

[cerebus]

LOL! Yo, everyone! Wake up a little! Am I the only one who realizes that R-O-T is the troll formerly known as "Enforcer"? C'mon now, he's as predictable and easy to spot as Blooming Lotus! He's been banned from here, he's been banned from Emptyflower, who knows where else he's been banned. He relies on what he reads and what he "thinks" he knows about MA just to talk smack and get people worked up. Ignore him. ;)

[BAI HE]

Word Troy. The funny part is that he's too dang stupid
to alter his posting style ( paste and whine fu).
I like when he pops up on
EF or YZB for about 2 posts and gets banned.

It's like "hmmm" can you spot the Ostrich in the chicken coop?
He defiantely took the short bus to high school and he most
certainly eats corn the long way.

[unkokusai]

I havent officially trained in kung fu but read alot on the net, bookstore, watch documentaries/movies, watch clips on the net I can find, also I read kung fu/tai chi/and vairous other magazine each month in the bookstore.


...................................... :rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

LOL! Yo, everyone! Wake up a little! Am I the only one who realizes that R-O-T is the troll formerly known as "Enforcer"? C'mon now, he's as predictable and easy to spot as Blooming Lotus! He's been banned from here, he's been banned from Emptyflower, who knows where else he's been banned. He relies on what he reads and what he "thinks" he knows about MA just to talk smack and get people worked up. Ignore him. ;)

he's generally somewhat fun until he starts his racism crap tho - that's what got him banned the last two times.

[Ray Pina]

He is referring to the time when you got a call from Ray about coming down to your school and hoping to see lama pai in action so to speak.

because of the insurance situation, you decline to play.

so, based on R-O-T's logic, Ray issued a challenge and it was unanswered, hence backed out.

it is a whole different game when people have to pay bills and keep a roof. one shaw movie too many for him.


I didn't consider that a challenge and feel closer in relation to Mr. Parrella than this ROT chacater. Mr. Parrella and I are at least CMA brothers and traditionalists. While I wish I could play with someone who has acquired the flavor of Master Chan's fighting system, I have no ill will towards them, I'm just curious.

My enemy is the loud mouth MMA.

[Ray Pina]

[QUOTE=Lama Pai Sifu]
My two Kung-fu schools will generate over $900,000 this year QUOTE]

Hold the phone ...... Jesus Christ! NOW I CHALLENGE YOU! :)

If I win, can it be like the old days where I can take over your school and have my master Chan teach the superior qualities of E-Chuan. :p

You aint $hitting Kung FU's been good to you.

[Ray Pina]

Are you serious? He practically laid out a challenge for this entire forum for a prize fighting match with $500 on the line saying he wont fight in a professional match cause his secret techniques will be revealed to the public. On top of it he challenged me on bullshido just because I made a comment about him not having a video clip even though I live on the other side of the country from him. He also said another forum member who does kung fu and constantly defends it on bullshido (who I think is banned there now and who Matt Thornton made fun of cause he was so threatened by him) named Djimbe saying he talks alot of **** when he was defending kung fu vs like 50 posters in this oen thread.


OK ROT, we can chat directly.

If you're who I think you are, I wasn't attacking you as much as I was defending the person you were judging .... someone who had the guts to show up for a fight, and frankly, take a little bit of a beating with dignity. He didn't need you, someone who doesn't know him, or see the fight, judging him.

As for Djumbe, my problem with him at the time -- this was over a year ago -- is that he took a picture with my master when he paid a visit and my master is too nice to say no and it looked cool having a 63 year old, 5'6 Chinese man standing next to a 400lbs, 6'7 black man.

But then Djembi talked a lot on Bullshido, came across like a student of Master Chan after spending maybe 10 to 15 total class hours at the time (probably less) and got choked out by like a 150 BJJ ... who downloaded his photo and embarrassed the school.

I felt I also embarrassed the school when I gassed out in the ring about 1.5 to 2 years ago. At that point I said I wouldn't fight out until I was ready. Now I'm fighting NHB privately and enjoying it and I can't see myself going back into the ring with boxing gloves and headgear because it's too much of a condition game. I would fight in the ring though if it was 5 rounds or less, boxing gloves, but no head gear and elbows, forearms, knees and ground n pound were allowed.

Right now I'm comfortable doing what I'm doing, meeting MMA who want to fight and filming it. I'm thinking about doing a little MMA competition this fall. We'll see how it goes.

[SevenStar]

I felt I also embarrassed the school when I gassed out in the ring about 1.5 to 2 years ago. At that point I said I wouldn't fight out until I was ready. Now I'm fighting NHB privately and enjoying it and I can't see myself going back into the ring with boxing gloves and headgear because it's too much of a condition game. I would fight in the ring though if it was 5 rounds or less, boxing gloves, but no head gear and elbows, forearms, knees and ground n pound were allowed.

Right now I'm comfortable doing what I'm doing, meeting MMA who want to fight and filming it. I'm thinking about doing a little MMA competition this fall. We'll see how it goes.

as far as gassing goes, amateur thai boxing IS less than five rounds. If you are good enough to turn pro, you won't wear head gear, and can still fight five rounds or less, and there are states where elbows are allowed. I'm not sure what that has to do with gassing though... do you think that you could finish the fight faster if those things were allowed?

[Ray Pina]

Well, I think I had two weaknesses at that time. First was my clinch game, I just never really went over that with my teacher in too great of detail and he didn't want or know that I went out to fight. After he saw the video he worked with me and I think I've fixed the problem. I've actually been winning by striking out of the clinch lately.

The second thing was condition but I still don't believe in it. And this is one of those aspects of e-chuan that is different philosophically. We are not a sport style. The idea of condition, to me, is pumping yourself up, doing cardio work. But as soon as you take a few weeks off you lose it all already. If you are 15 years older than the other guy than you may have to condition exponentially more to get a similiar result. Instead, I've been focusing on budgeting the energy, making it count. Fights are lasting about 80 seconds right now. Maybe these guys aren't that good, but as I get better I'd like to keep it that way.

I don't like fighting with gear now because it just prolonges things, allows someone to cover up and potentially turn it into a cardio event. We don't need to fight for that, I guarantee if the other guys fights in the ring he has better cardio.... while he's eating broiled chicken I'm having taco bell. While he's jogging I'm doing bong hits. But without gear, with bare knuckles or MMA gloves and elbows and forearms and strikes to the back of the head and back and anywhere allowed I guarantee the fight will be over in 2 to 3 minutes tops.... either he openes me up bad or submits me or I do the same to him. I like this kind of fighting better.

This is not to say I won't ever go fight San Da or MT again, just that it's not interesting me now. I like knowing I have a fight about 2 weeks out and working technique heavily for that first week and then about 4 or 5 days before stop having sex and smoking and putting myself in the mindframe .... knowing the fight will only end one of two ways ..... he beats me to submission or I beat him to submission. No refs, no points, etc.

I'm actually going to start training tonight. My brother is getting married next Fri. and I'm the best man but after that I'd like to pick up 4 or 5 more of these fights, surf all summer, and see about entering a MMA event. I think the nearest one is in Virginia, right?

[SevenStar]

Well, I think I had two weaknesses at that time. First was my clinch game, I just never really went over that with my teacher in too great of detail and he didn't want or know that I went out to fight. After he saw the video he worked with me and I think I've fixed the problem. I've actually been winning by striking out of the clinch lately.

what type of striking are you doing from there? short punches and knees?


The second thing was condition but I still don't believe in it. And this is one of those aspects of e-chuan that is different philosophically. We are not a sport style. The idea of condition, to me, is pumping yourself up, doing cardio work. But as soon as you take a few weeks off you lose it all already. If you are 15 years older than the other guy than you may have to condition exponentially more to get a similiar result. Instead, I've been focusing on budgeting the energy, making it count. Fights are lasting about 80 seconds right now. Maybe these guys aren't that good, but as I get better I'd like to keep it that way.

considering that most pro level mma fights go longer than that, I would think it was the quality of the opponents. Also, fighting isn't really about cardio... it's mostly anaerobic. As it prolongs, cardio comes more into play, but it's largely anaerobic. printing and interval running, hard shadowboxing and bagwork, etc. help to train this.


I don't like fighting with gear now because it just prolonges things, allows someone to cover up and potentially turn it into a cardio event. We don't need to fight for that, I guarantee if the other guys fights in the ring he has better cardio.... while he's eating broiled chicken I'm having taco bell. While he's jogging I'm doing bong hits. But without gear, with bare knuckles or MMA gloves and elbows and forearms and strikes to the back of the head and back and anywhere allowed I guarantee the fight will be over in 2 to 3 minutes tops.... either he openes me up bad or submits me or I do the same to him. I like this kind of fighting better.

Once again, I'll use pro level mma as an example. As the skill of the fighters gets more equal, match lengths tend to get longer. you just can't end EVERY fight that quickly.


I'm actually going to start training tonight. My brother is getting married next Fri. and I'm the best man but after that I'd like to pick up 4 or 5 more of these fights, surf all summer, and see about entering a MMA event. I think the nearest one is in Virginia, right?

Cool. I would think that there are some in new york, but I KNOW there are some in jersey.

[FatherDog]

I don't like fighting with gear now because it just prolonges things, allows someone to cover up and potentially turn it into a cardio event. We don't need to fight for that, I guarantee if the other guys fights in the ring he has better cardio.... while he's eating broiled chicken I'm having taco bell. While he's jogging I'm doing bong hits. But without gear, with bare knuckles or MMA gloves and elbows and forearms and strikes to the back of the head and back and anywhere allowed I guarantee the fight will be over in 2 to 3 minutes tops.... either he openes me up bad or submits me or I do the same to him. I like this kind of fighting better.

Watch the IVC. Watch the early UFC. In both of these venues, there were bare knuckles, elbows and forearms and strikes allowed anywhere. Most fights lasted longer than 2 to 3 minutes. Many fights lasted upwards of ten minutes.

Your "guarantee" is based on very limited experience and will be proved wrong over and over again if you fight anyone good (or just anyone tough).

If you care more about taco bell and bong hits than you do about becoming a good fighter, that's fine; it doesn't make you a bad person. But don't try to use "well, the kind of fighting I like will never last longer than 2-3 minutes" as an excuse, because it's bull****.

[Ray Pina]

The fights are quick not because of my cardio or food habits, it's because I'm agressive and again, we don't train for sport .... to go in and come out and dance around and go in and come back out.

I give it all on the first exchange. Sort of what I'd imagine sword fighting is like. Perhaps there is a stage of feeling out, but when you go swing you swing to kill. Kill or be kill right then.

Either I overwhelm the guy right there or he reverses it and overwhelms me. If I fail to put the guy down after three exchanges I'm not good enough.

I agree, I haven't had too tough of competition. Only one guy was a real tough SOB. But then again, these are the guys that are showing up to do this type of figthing. There must be a whole slew of guys who are too good for this, because it's not as easy as you'd think to get guys to show up for these fights .... and believe me, I try to recruit from all venues.

FatherDog you are right. I'm coming out of a "taking it easy phase" and beginning serious training for some fights. But I am not a pro. When I finish what I'm doing now I think I could get some higher-level fights. And when I do, I'll eat, sleep and breath my training.

But I still strongly believe that conditioning is important for the UFC type of fighters .... when everybody is doing the same thing it comes down to little edges like conditioning, nutrition. But if you are doing something different.....

If we all use single action rifles, well, the side that has 500 men has an advantage over the side with 150 men. But if we have 150 men with automatic M-16 .... we can very well hold off 1,000 men with single action rifles if we position ourselves correctly.

I know I am learning technology that is not out there right now. I am out there. I'm seeing what's out there. I know folks are very adomant about telling me NO, it's all the same. But I have gone to the best schools to see their styles first hand .... I know they haven't seen E-Chuan. There is only one place in the world to see it. And that is at my master's.

I take all of this very seriously. I enjoy it tremendously and I respect what these MMA are doing, just that I believe in the technological advantage that I am learning and staking everything on it.

Look what the Gracies did when they first arrived on the scene. I honestly think I have the opportunity to do the same thing ..... but part of the point is that the older guy can beat the younger guy, the smaller guy the bigger guy, the regular guy the athletic guy.

[lkfmdc]

Ray, you're a nice guy and I like you so please try and forgive me. But don't you think you're on the verge of becoming Egyptian royalty? King of De Nile?

Gloves, shin guards and head gear do provide some protection, but to say you weren't able to fight because of them is a cop out. This last Sat, with all that gear, 5 of the 8 matches we held were KO's.

The stuff you write about conditioning is sadly, and please do try and soak this in, a joke.... it's an excuse not to be in good shape. It's yet another myth of the so called internal martial art..

When technique is equal, the bigger, stronger, better conditioned man is going to win, period. Some times the bigger stronger better conditioned guy is going to beat the more technical guy if his conditioning is enough to make up the difference.

How long have you been training? You did Bak Mei before you did E-Chuan didn't you? You thought your skills were high enough you took on students didn't you?

When you fought on my card you fought an 19 year old kid with no fights and 6 months of JKD/Muay Thai training.....

He was also close to 9 pounds lighter than you were if I remember correctly.

In theory, your martial arts experience and higher technique should have made the match one sided.

SOmething for you to consider

[hjt]

[QUOTE=Ray Pina]The fights are quick not because of my cardio or food habits, it's because I'm agressive and again, we don't train for sport .... to go in and come out and dance around and go in and come back out.


good examples of agressive fighters that were once good mike tyson and vitor beltford, but look at them now, dont have the conditioning and now lose to b class fighters.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

David, how did Ray Pina do in that fight you mentioned?

[SevenStar]

The fights are quick not because of my cardio or food habits, it's because I'm agressive and again, we don't train for sport .... to go in and come out and dance around and go in and come back out.

you have people who are equally as aggressive. You also have those that are excellent at neutralizing that aggression and keeping their distance. Like I said, when skill levels become more equal, you'll see longer matches.


I give it all on the first exchange. Sort of what I'd imagine sword fighting is like. Perhaps there is a stage of feeling out, but when you go swing you swing to kill. Kill or be kill right then.

I dunno if that's always the greatest strategy... That's probably why you gassed in the san shou fight...



Either I overwhelm the guy right there or he reverses it and overwhelms me. If I fail to put the guy down after three exchanges I'm not good enough.

I dunno man, that's a bit harsh. If that's the case, pro fighters - in any venue - are also not good enough.


I agree, I haven't had too tough of competition. Only one guy was a real tough SOB. But then again, these are the guys that are showing up to do this type of figthing. There must be a whole slew of guys who are too good for this, because it's not as easy as you'd think to get guys to show up for these fights .... and believe me, I try to recruit from all venues.

It's not that they are too good for it, it's just the places that you are looking. you are holding throwdowns - just a local level, small time tournament, really. You are expecting people to come to you - and at a small time event. It doesn't necessarily work that way. YOU have to go to THEM. Using thai boxing as an example, you can find people to fight locally, but for some definite good competition, hit the nationals in florida this summer. You can grapple locally, but to really test yourself, go to the NAGA. The people are out there, but you have to seek them.



But I still strongly believe that conditioning is important for the UFC type of fighters .... when everybody is doing the same thing it comes down to little edges like conditioning, nutrition. But if you are doing something different.....

If we all use single action rifles, well, the side that has 500 men has an advantage over the side with 150 men. But if we have 150 men with automatic M-16 .... we can very well hold off 1,000 men with single action rifles if we position ourselves correctly.

I know I am learning technology that is not out there right now. I am out there. I'm seeing what's out there. I know folks are very adomant about telling me NO, it's all the same. But I have gone to the best schools to see their styles first hand .... I know they haven't seen E-Chuan. There is only one place in the world to see it. And that is at my master's.

There was a thread about this - MP and I had examples in boxing and grappling of everything you said was different about e chuan. Maybe we just need to see it though, can you post clips of the specific things that are different?

And even if it is different, I wouldn't rely solely on that. I'll adress that in the next section.


I take all of this very seriously. I enjoy it tremendously and I respect what these MMA are doing, just that I believe in the technological advantage that I am learning and staking everything on it.

Look what the Gracies did when they first arrived on the scene. I honestly think I have the opportunity to do the same thing ..... but part of the point is that the older guy can beat the younger guy, the smaller guy the bigger guy, the regular guy the athletic guy.

if you rely solely on your technology, you will quickly begin to fail. We are a culture of adaptation. If what you are doing is that effective and you are that successful with it, it will get assimilated. Keeping with your example, look at the gracies. What tey were doing at the time was truly different. Now, it's par for the course. Once that happens, it goes back to where it started - as skill level equals, matches lengthen. What will make the difference are things like strength and conditioning.

[Ray Pina]

Coach Ross, SevenStar, Etc.

I'll talk about condition like this:

These guys are very conditioned. Look at any individual part and its better conditioned than mine. But if they blow up their bicep and they blow up their tricep, but when they strike the bicep and tricep are actually cancelling each other out to equal degrees because both want to do the job ....

I'm not in bad condition now. Not like I was for that fight, but I still don't talk about condition. All of my guys may be less built up individually, but they don't cancel each other out -- they work together.

Mr. Ros. at the time of that fight I was training with my master for 18 months, coming from an external background. It took about 2.5 years just to get the basics so I could start receiving the good stuff, which I'm starting to now. It's funny, I think I get something real good and then my master shows me something else that completely makes me feel inferior and insecure -- because what if someone else has it too, etc..

Anyway, this is too much talking already for martial artists. You are not an old man. Want to arrange a match? I can demonstrate some of these ideas to you and get to play with a high-ranking disciple of Master Chan Tai San at the same time. It will be lovely.

If not, I will also be willing to play with a student of your choice. I know you guys are ring oriented, so right now I'm 190. I'll fight in your ring if you want but no gear nor rounds. Let it go until someone taps.

My brother is getting married this weekend and I'll be out of town for a week. I'll be back next Fri. Let me know.

[lkfmdc]

I answered you on the Chan Tai San thread, but don't post more there....

[Ray Pina]

It's not that they are too good for it, it's just the places that you are looking. you are holding throwdowns - just a local level, small time tournament, really. You are expecting people to come to you - and at a small time event. It doesn't necessarily work that way. YOU have to go to THEM. Using thai boxing as an example, you can find people to fight locally, but for some definite good competition, hit the nationals in florida this summer. You can grapple locally, but to really test yourself, go to the NAGA. The people are out there, but you have to seek them..

SevenStar, I hear what you are saying and you are right and I apreciate your constructive critism. I don't want to go out to a "real" venue until I have closer to 80% of my master's hand-to-hand .... I want to make sure I beat everyone and do the style justice.

At the same time, I'm not holding these Throwdowns in some backwoods community. I'm holding them in Midtown Manhatttan .... guys are coming in from as far as Philly. I'm also going to the national Throwdown in Atlanta this Sept.

Also, I don't expect everyone to come to me. I even offered to drive down to you to spend time with you and MP. And I'll still buy the food and drinks if I can't show you some new technology.

But all in all you're right. I know I have to go out there someday. Right now I'm jamming in my garage and playing small bars and clubs type of gigs. But I'm working my guitar, know what I mean.

When the time is right I'll hit the big stage .... I know I will. I just need to follow the path I feel in my heart.

But truly, thanks. What you're saying is important.

[Merryprankster]

Ray,

I want to talk about ego for a second. Ego is the most dangerous thing a competitor can have. Contrary to popular opinion, ego doesn't care about winning, and has nothing to do with confidence, or even ****iness. Ego cares only about perceptions: yours and that of other people.

Ego will prevent you from giving your all in a match. It is better to your ego to have lost a close match to a tough opponent, than take the risks necessary to win, and possibly be just another guy that opponent walked through.

Ego will invent excuses for you to preserve your own self perceptions: "Oh, he's just a natural athlete," "Oh, he's just younger than me, "Oh, I'm tired today," "Oh, I'm just not very focused today."

One of the things ego loves to latch on to is "If only I had been in better condition, I would have won." The implication here is "I am actually better than he is, but I didn't take this very seriously, as evidenced by the fact that I'm not in very good condition, so it doesn't much matter." That's very ego preserving, which the ego loves. It keeps that mental self-image.

A fighter with an ego problem will never go out in the technical, physical and mental shape that he should, because it gives him a way out. It gives him a way to say "if only," and preserve that ego. They now have nothing to lose - but they also have nothing to win. If you can beat the guy without being at your peak technical, physical, and mental shape, then there's no challenge there. But losing doesn't hurt because there's a ready made excuse in there.

A fighter with no ego problem trains for a fight like it's the most important thing in his life. And when he steps out there, he fights like it doesn't matter. He's at the peak of his mental, physical and mental condition. He's got EVERYTHING to lose, and no excuses if he does. That's something ego really hates - a loss with no way out, because the ego only wants to preserve itself.

In my mind, this is what the old adages about "To master your enemy, you must first master yourself," and "leave it all out there," really mean.

At any rate, what I'm seeing is the same thing I critiqued you for after your fight. I gave you props for stepping in the ring, but said not to use conditioning as an excuse. I'm seeing the same thing now.

When you fought, you QUIT. Let me say that again - you QUIT. That's an ego problem, not a conditioning problem. An egoless fighter would have answered the bell, win or lose. Quitting was one way for ego to preserve itself that day.

Saying the things you say about condition, and talking about why the fights are short, etc, are just ego preservation. Not being in condition provides you a way out for losing.

Let me say that again. Not being in condition is an excuse; ignoring conditioning is a way to ensure that excuse stays put - your ego will thank you for it.

I want to make it clear that I am not blaming you for quitting. YOU didn't quit. Your ego did. I AM blaming you for not mastering your ego. This is an acquired skill for most people, takes practice, and requires constant maintanence of that skill.

You need to take a good hard look at yourself and figure this out.

I only get to tell you this because I've been through it. It took me years to get it all to sink it. I think you will read this and it won't even make a dent. You will tell me that I am wrong, and that you appreciate my input, but that it's genuinely not about that, it's really about the philosophy/technology/etc. You will cite your willingness to go against anybody as an indication that your ego is not a problem -except that I have just outlined how you can still compete and have an ego problem.

Your comments about conditioning are nothing more than an excuse. It's that simple, but that doesn't make the solution easy. It's a choice, and it's not an easy one at all.

None of this is meant in anger, although it reads pretty harsh. Sorry to hear you will be out of town this weekend. I'm coming up! My thesis will be signed next Wednesday - perhaps we can do something before I leave in August.

[Reggie1]

Wow. Nice post. I think all of us can take something from that.

[Mutant]

Wow MP, thats some pretty profound sh!t. AWESOME post.

[FatherDog]

Great post, MP.

I've noticed this kind of behavior from people at the gym - everybody's seen that guy that just wants to roll with people smaller and less experienced than him, so he can feel good about dominating him, but there's also that guy that constantly goes after guys much, much bigger than him, so he has a ready-made excuse for when he loses - the weight and strength was "just too much" for him (never mind that they pulled guard and spun into an omoplata - clearly it was just the strength and weight).

Your post articulated the basis of the problem - ego - a bit better than I had worked it out in my head.

[SevenStar]

dayum... excellent post, MP.

[Vasquez]

Great post, MP.

I've noticed this kind of behavior from people at the gym - everybody's seen that guy that just wants to roll with people smaller and less experienced than him, so he can feel good about dominating him, but there's also that guy that constantly goes after guys much, much bigger than him, so he has a ready-made excuse for when he loses - the weight and strength was "just too much" for him (never mind that they pulled guard and spun into an omoplata - clearly it was just the strength and weight).

Your post articulated the basis of the problem - ego - a bit better than I had worked it out in my head.

that's understandable in the early years of training - you just want to roll with EVERYONE.

[SevenStar]

what's understandable?

[Vasquez]

what's understandable?

Understandable you want to roll with everyone in class. We all start out as bullies but eventually with good coaching / punishment from the master we learn martial ethics and philosophy.

[ReignOfTerror]

MerryParankster, you should tell that to mike tyson, or ken shamrcok. But seriously, if you think about it competition itself is about ego. If your not fighting because its the only way to support yourself or your family, or you have to because of some vow you made to someone, or for similar reasons it is about ego. If you want to prove to yourself how abdass you are or how tough you are in trying to impress an audience of people and egt fame than it is all ego. If you feel secure in your abilities there is nor eason to fight.

[PaiLumDreamer]

MerryParankster, you should tell that to mike tyson, or ken shamrcok. But seriously, if you think about it competition itself is about ego. If your not fighting because its the only way to support yourself or your family, or you have to because of some vow you made to someone, or for similar reasons it is about ego. If you want to prove to yourself how abdass you are or how tough you are in trying to impress an audience of people and egt fame than it is all ego. If you feel secure in your abilities there is nor eason to fight.


Or you compete to have fun...?

Personally, I like to fight...its the best thing in the world for me. Way better than playing games on the computer, imo (Which...I seem to do a bunch anyway. :D). Competing is just another option. Some people do it for ego reasons, but not everyone. Saying that is an overgeneralization.

When I go to compete its to have fun and cross hands with someone with different training than mine. When you spar in your school you start to understand how someone will fight...your partners are the same...going to a competition gives you a wider range of people and style.

Generally, martial artists are good guys. I rarely see them in a testosterone high ego competition, but it does happen. Just dont go saying that competition is just about satisfying the ego.

That dar is just plain 'ol wrong.

[ReignOfTerror]

I dont think anyone really enjoyts to fight. Fighting does not make anyone feel good unless it is mutual and kind of like sparring where no one gets hurt at the end. competition isnt like that, the aim is to brutalize your opponent before the brutalize you. Now pure grappling, thats a different story.

[ReignOfTerror]

Generally, martial artists are good guys. I rarely see them in a testosterone high ego competition, but it does happen. Just dont go saying that competition is just about satisfying the ego.

I dont think thats true. most middle upper and upper class people around the world and especially in countries with long history of ma like china associate martial artists with gangs/thugs/criminals. It has always been like this and martial artists were always violent, with constant challenge matches and death duels. I dont think it will ever change truthfully. Only the internal arts seem to have "got it right".

http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=619357&FID=1
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=269685
http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=594767&FID=1&pc=25
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24810

[ReignOfTerror]

Again fighting someone to hurt them and fighting someone to restrain them or sparring (play fighting) are totally different things. WHen you fight someone on the streets it is to survive and hurt them as badly as you can before they hurt you. Some competitions (that allow striking) are similar but have a greater safety factor. People that like to fight alot generally have no compassion for other people and psychological issues. Most of the old school kung fu guys Im guessing fought because they had to not because they liked it. Also as I mentioned martial artists were generally always looked down in society and still are today.

[David Jamieson]

I think martial artists have gotten the whole "what is ego" question bent out of shape for too too long. lol

ego is simply the conciousness that you are. You are a seperate being from other beings and from the world around you.

ego isn't dangerous, it just is. without it, you wouldn't be able to understand reality at all. People who are truly without ego are generally schizophrenic in other words.

ego is not all the other stuff merry is going on about, but I agree that self doubt, self aspersion, deprecation etc etc all play a part in ones performance.

But without your ego, you wouldn't have any of it, never mind the minimal desire required to compete or fight in the first place.

so as a broader shout out to ma-ists. Before we go on with more saying what ego is when in fact that is not what ego is, just look it up and avoid the temptation to over interpret. :D

.:EGO:. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ego)

[Vash]

I thought ROT was banninated?

[Vash]

btw vash, hope all is well re: our previous PM correspondence


Indeed it is. Yesterday was my first day back under the iron, and tomorrow is my first day back in karate. The ITB is still a little stiff, and there's still some clicking in the hip, but it's not longer painful. Weak, yes. But no pain. The Physical Therapy is definetly helping.

So long as keep stretching and strengthening, I think I'm going to come through all right.

No complaints, at least this far. Thanks for the help!

[Merryprankster]

David, before you go off being a jerk :P...

I was using ego in the colloquial sense, not the technical sense.

I am fully aware that ego is nothing but the sense of self.

But this isn't a psychiatric clinic! (Well, maybe....)

[SevenStar]

Understandable you want to roll with everyone in class. We all start out as bullies but eventually with good coaching / punishment from the master we learn martial ethics and philosophy.


I think you misunderstood him. Rolling with everyone is fine - it's SUPPOSED to be that way. that's how you get better. What MP is saying is that there are some guys who only like to roll with guys they know that they can beat. It's really not about martial arts ethics. It's just simple human nature - a good arse kicking is very humbling. In sport styles, these arse kickings tend to be frequent. Thinl back to the elementary school days with the class bully and the kid that finally stands up to him - there isn't always MA involved in these cases. The bully gets his butt kicked, then he begins to think - "hey, someone out there can beat me up...what happens if the next person I mess with is also one that can beat me up?" He just got humbled.

[cerebus]

Asian lesbian ketchup orgy?? :eek: Dam Chris, why can't you be a magical genie and grant that wish? :D :D

[ReignOfTerror]

some good info here:
http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php%3ft=20709
http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php%3ft=25375
http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php%3ft=6481