The Pussification of the internal arts

[gazza99]

Im sure many of you know what I mean by "pussification". As internal artists we often get stigmatised as "weak", or "soft". We are just a bunch of geezers(or young hippies)in the park trying to find the ancient fountian of youth, or keys to enlightenment.
Looking at what is representative of my arts (nowadays Taijiquan/baguazhang). Especially taijiquan, I do not blame them one bit. It is depressing to see, even most of the schools that supposedly teach the "martial aspects", act as though it is just a side effect. When the reverse is accually true. Their techniques are lacking in almost every way possible. However they might be "pretty".
I hope many of you feel the same way, that means that there are still good internal Martial artists somewhere.
Kind Regards,
Gary

"If I only had one tooth, i think Id brush it a real long time" -George Carlin

[denali]

Really? You mean you're not an old hippy?

[Waidan]

I'm not really sure what sort of responses you're looking for, other than, "I hear ya brother!".

Well, I hear ya brother! :)

[Hu Flung Pu]

Just show them your FAJING PUNCH!!!

[gazza99]

Thats what im looking for Waidan!!! Just maybe some other peoples discust..rants..any other interesting stories. Maybe hu flung pu did a fajing punch on some geezer in the park??? Whatever..

[Daniel Madar]

Amen Brother!

[Chang Style Novice]

In tongiht's Ch'ang style tai chi class, I wrenched my shoulder so hard I may go in monday and get some Golden Spear treatment.

Does that make you feel any better?

_______________________
Everything is universal, by definition.

[Kaitain(UK)]

yet again my entire chest and upper arms are yellow and purple with bruising

I definitely hear ya :)

We have had ppl from other Taiji schools complain when they train with us that we have no 'Taiji Joy' - the look on their face when I showed them some applications :)

Just be patient - the plethora of 'Beach Taiji' schools will decline as the number of serious clubs increases.

Also remember that some people only want the relaxation/meditative aspects of taiji - what they fail to understand is that unless you train the form with a martia mind to detail, you won't receive anything like the proper benefits

"one room, many keys"

[joedoe]

But ... you are a bunch of weak, soft pussies.

Just kidding :)

-------------------------------------
You have no chance to survive - make your time.

[razakdigital]

I agree there are a lot of people being duped into thinking the have Pa kua skillzzzz...

Its about education and research...I've been saying this on this board for at least a year about how much respect we dont get...the bottom line is that if you are internalist you have to train realistically...How do I know?...being a newbie in this art if I fight traditional I get cream ... when I use my imagination and technique I do pretty good...

all we can do as internalist is to practice and represent ourselves..

[uncle]

No more cracks about Tai Chi joy. I now have to clean-up the coffee I almost spit on my keyboard,really,that has got to be the funniest thing I've heard on this forum.If I'm ever in the U.K. I'll be sure to look you guys up,you sound like a lot of fun. There are far too many way soft Tai Chi schools (being kind)where I'm at,United State of Alaska.

[brassmonkey]

Talk talk talk. You want respect and to be feared by other martial artists why don't you convert them the old school way. You beat a couple Gracies in challenges at their schools you'll get a name for yourself, you'll have to work your way up the rung but if your dim mak is so good this should be no problem.

[Hu Flung Pu]

Yeah, especially Erle's Dim Mak™© :rolleyes:

[gazza99]

Brass Monkey is right, everyone that is an internal MA that wants to change the stigmatism the "old school" way, just go to all the local dojo's, bjj places and challenge the instructors!!! Yeah, this will bring a great respect to our arts Im sure!!!
Oh, and sorry guys if you read the rules of the NHB there are "NO PRESSURE POINT STRIKES" ,so i cannot use dim-mak. Why is this? I also do not believe that any self-respecting Martial artist would enter into a "blood sport" type match to prove himself, that is egotistical, immoral, and innapropriate.

[Hu Flung Pu]

Sounds like you've been pussified.

[gazza99]

Yup, you are correct flung, If not killing/hospitalizing people for ego is pussified, then I definately fit that category. Could you tell me how I can be more like you?

[MonkeySlap Too]

Once I got invited over to Wai Lun Chois school in Chicago. I had met Choi at Jeff Bolts tournament and he offered to improve my punching ability.

So there I was in his class working a really fun, yet painful drill with one of his senior students. Next to us Choi was talking to a ten year tai chi hippy. After a few minutes of barely attempting the drill, the guy complained that it hurt. Choi then explained to him how to properly train yourself so pain is no big deal. The guy just about howled 'Tai Chi is suppossed to be soft! It's not suppossed to hurt!'

I scored points from a buddy because the senior student and I were both able to continue the drill even though we were laughing hysterically.

Another time (and I was only there a WEEK)some Tai Chi hippies came in and asked for a demo. Choi knew I was a Shuai Chiao guy, so he used me for a dummy. Neck breaks, spiraling throws, sudden throws, great suff. The look of horror on the Tai Chi hippies faces was priceless. I think they expected Choi to wave his arm like a jedi knight.

Most people have unrealistic and silly ideas about Tai Chi. But the good stuff - whoo boy. If theres one teacher I wish I had spent time with and really haven't, its Choi.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[mo di kuen]

Don't bother to look for respect for your art until you have mastered the "two achievements".
Have you achieved conscious movement?
Have you attained to the level of interpreting energy?
Knowing yourself and knowing others. Only when these two things are mastered can you become "a peerless boxer". If you want fame and fortune then do what Sun Tzu said - first make yourself invincible, then ...


"without long practice one cannot suddenly understand Taijiquan" - The Taiji Classic

[brassmonkey]

Cool post Mo. I watched I think it was UFC 8 a while back and I myself was shocked to hear that no pressure point strikes. The truth be told this was for political reasons. After the first UFC there was a great lobbying movement made by the boxing associations to get no holds barred fighting illegal in every state and they **** near succeeded with the help of greased politicians calling it among other things a "blood sport" I'm sure. John McCain led the charge I believe. They did succeed in seriously hurting the sponsorship and the cable companies didnt wanna be associated with this sort of thing, so as of today you still cant see ufc on cable. Now to help appease the critics the UFC adopted no pressure pt. strikes which are only words. Seriously do you think the ref Big John McCarthy is certified in pressure point strikes so that he can take pt. away for every time they do hit one? Unless you consider the eyes and groin pressure points those are the only 2 that are actually not allowed.

[brassmonkey]

My personal opinion has been that its good to be underestimated so its a good thing generaly is thought of as a joke, unfortunately thanks to people like Waterdragon and Shooter whom I've seen on "mixed martial arts" boards presenting Tai Chi Chuan in a practical fighting sense. Here's your quote concerning nhb Gary: "that is egotistical, immoral, and innapropriate." If nhb is ego what do you think you started this thread for? Its funny how you complain about Tai Chi being pussified and then shun real fighters, sport none the less but this is the closest thing you can get to controlled challenge matches. I personally like to read other boards conerning mixed martial arts, not that I think theyre techniques are superior its simply because they make up the majority of the people in martial arts that approach fighting in a pragmatic way and have the mindset to fight, know your enemy was my initial thoughts. Now after seeing that the people on the other boards are just like you or me, no different, I don't hold them as the enemy, but its good to know what a majority of the fighters tactics and techniques are, a better test would be to go out in the world and test my skill against these same fighters but I'm very new to the arts this will come with time. Gary I'm willing to bet your hero is Yang Lu Chan do you think he became famous by not fighting? I'm willing to bet if he were alive today he'd be fighting in either Pride or UFC. The famous Masters of old became famous by fighting, I'm sure they had various reasons like money, test theyre own skills, fame etc. Now if you want respect among most pragmatic martial artists your not going to get it by talking about dim mak, this in theyre mind is hippie tai chi that you hate so much. I'm not saying dim mak isnt real but its not respected among the general populous.

[gazza99]

Well I started this thread just to mention the stigmatism given to the internal arts. My first post spoke nothing about dim-mak, or NHB. That is what you have made of it. Brassmonkey: "real fighters".?????? I dont think so, you admit its a sport, that makes them athletes!!! I have watched many NHB matches, and have never seen anyone with a style that has dim-mak..they are all free-style wrestlers/bjj/muey thai/boxing/..when is the last time a taijiquan or baguazhang guys stepped in the ring? Dim-mak is not respected among the general populus because there are not many good practitioners around, and the few that can do it are not hormonally imbalenced men with a chip on their shoulder.
Like I said, I dont need to kill or hospitalize people to prove myself, I would rather be classifed as a wimp, I was simply making a statement about the false assumtions made about my arts in context with self-defense.

"Thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller

[origenx]

The less you know, the more you show.

Sure, many of the famous old masters were truly great, but I only wonder about the ones that didn't seek fame & fortune who were even greater. Many famous masters learned from anonymous old masters in the mountains. So one can then only imagine who were these mighty men and how skilled they must have been. The truly great ones we've never seen or heard of!

[Chris McKinley]

I agree in nonspecifically with the sentiment Gary is putting forth here. I just recently posted my take on modern American Taiji practice, so I won't go into the state of the art. However, I would offer a hypothesis as to why/how this "pussification" occurred in the US in the first place.

Taijiquan, and the internal arts in general, were brought over by CMC during a time in our culture when young people (those most open to new influences) were experiencing a pendulum swing away from the institutionalized belief systems and ingrained cultural customs of this society. Anything with an air of mysticism was blindly embraced, no matter the culture of origin. The Western culture of the time was (and still is) heavily imbalanced toward its Yang elements.

Aggressive, independent, and "individual"-focused pioneer culture and the increasing bloom of technology, coupled with a disillusionment with religious and cultural beliefs all were strong factors in creating the devisive Yang-heavy climate. Those young people with a natural yearning for the balancing Yin elements of inclusion found the Yin elements of Taiji to be just what they were looking for.

Taiji's martial side represented, to that group of young Americans, the austere, war-mongering "peace through superior firepower" mentality and blind nationalism that they believed had poisoned their institutionalized culture. However, since Taiji obeyed the tenet of "know the masculine, but keep to the feminine", it was easy to spend one's time practicing the Yin elements of Taiji while marginalizing or even ignoring its more Yang martial elements. As these first generation American Taiji students went on to become instructors themselves, they carried with them and implemented their ideas that Taiji was a pacifistic path to personal enlightenment and universal harmony, rather than a wickedly effective method of destroying another human being. This reproductive degredation continues today.

While it is true that, at least among those heavily invested in the martial community, there appears to be a resurgence of awareness as to the true balance of Taijiquan, with its "prodigal son" martial side beginning to be embraced again, the overall momentum is still heavily in favor of the peacenik hippie version. In fact, there may even be a strengthening of this perception of the art over the next few years as Taiji becomes more popularly prescribed by Western physicians as a useful protocol for elderly people to fight arthritis, muscular atrophy, and loss of coordination.

If this should prove to be the case, then it will be up to us in the martial arts community to carry the torch of real BALANCED Taijiquan in this country. We must do this with full knowledge that we will be the tiny, if vocal, minority, and we must be content with the smaller inroads we can make on the individual level regarding the education of our people as to what real Taijiquan is.

[Shooter]

Chris McKinley, very well said. If only I could be so concise. :)

Brassmonkey, I didn't think anyone was actually paying attention to my drivel on the other boards. :cool:

Gary, I've fought in NHB no less than 15 times in the last 4 years. I never engaged the sport with aspirations of becoming a great fighter. It was because of my need (at my Sifu's behest) to do some serious feild research, and my own hopeless addiction to the arena of combat athletics.

As a serious student of the game, I've gained a unique perspective from that of most of my TCC brethern. I'll be 38 y/o soon, so after my next fight in a few weeks, I'll close that chapter of my journey. I'm working on a series of articles outlining what I've learned and how it pertains to the study of TCC.

I don't consider myself hormonally imbalanced. If anything, TCC has brought me to a better place in that regard. Dim-mak? What's that? ;)

I have nothing to prove.

A good Tai Chi player is just dancing to the cosmic beat. He doesn't care if anyone believes or not. That's the beauty of being right and knowing it. (nothing to gain and nothing to lose) ;)

This is actually a very good discussion.

[gazza99]

Very good post shooter, You stated you did it for the sport, that is great, I respect the NHB guys as athletes. The hormonally imbaleced comment was meant for people who have something to prove by hurting someone really badly..ie going into dojos and challenging people.
Great Taiji comment as well!!!
Kind Regards,
Gary

[Shooter]

Gary, I took no offense to the comment...I was trying some cryptic...nevermind. :)

brassmonkey's comments echo Sun Tzu's instruction to appear unskilled while knowing the enemy's best layed plans.

The classics say; The opponent doesn't know your intentions, but you know his.

That's why I don't advocate cross-training. Instead, I think it best to counter-train. ;)

[mo di kuen]

To a certain extent. But this esoteric, "foo-foo"
Taiji could not have gone very far if it had not been for Instructors propogating the trash. I blame Cheng Man-Ching. His "fair-lady" hand crap
is simply a racist attempt to keep the real taiji which he learned from Yang Cheng-Fu from Americans. If you look at Cheng's Taiwanese students you see that their taiji is very similar to the taiji taught by all of Yang's students. Cheng only started teaching his "fair-lady" version of taiji after he came to America and he rarely if ever taught the long form to non-chinese.
I personally know one of Cheng's chinese students who would not teach the long form, the sword form or push hands to non-chinese students. Cheng has American students all across the country who only know his 37 movement short form and nothing else.
I won't even get into the "Double-Floating" issue.

"Without long practice one cannot suddenly understand Taijiquan" - The Taiji Classic

[razakdigital]

Mo di Kuen,

Very interesting post...do you think that Mr. Ming gave Robert Smith false transmissions of Yang Tai Chi?

Robert Smith was very close with him...

please reply

[mo di kuen]

Mind Boxer,

If you know Mr. Smith then he can answer your question. Ask him if he knows anything other than the 37 movement short form and whether he advocates the "Fair Lady" hand and you will have your answer. I do not know him personally and have never seen him perform (I have only seen his picture in a few books) and therefore cannot acertain how much Tai Chi he knows or what method he advocates without asking him.

[Mark M]

A few years ago in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Robert Smith wrote that the photos of Yang Chen Fu's postures were all wrong because he didn't know how to pose for the camera. Total nonsense! My Teacher was taught by Chen Fu, our postures are exactly like the photos.

[Dave C.]

Mo di kuen,
The situation in Taiwan isn't what you think it is. The students of CMC here also only do the 37. Some of them do know the long form but as far as I know they seem to think it has no value. Also they all swear by the "fair lady" wrist thing. If you ask some of the teachers here they will acknowledge that CMC changed the form and say it's better for relaxation of the tendons on the back of the hand.

Even though CMC said that the 37, push hands, and sword are all you need I think the sword practice is in serious decline here. So the students aren't practicing what CMC himself practiced nor are they learning all he said was necessary.

So it may be hard to believe but I think that CMC stylists here aren't much different from the CMC stylists I met in the states.

[mo di kuen]

Mark M

It was then and is still very commonplace today for Masters to change something or do a posture slightly different in a book or video so that the Master would be able to know who learned their KungFu/Taiji from the book or video and who learned from a qualified Sifu.

It is unfortunate that Yang Chen-Fu's failsafe worked on his own son as Yang Zheng-Dou was only 9 or 10 when his father passed away when he was older, instead of asking the senior students, he just decided to learn from the photos. This is very evident in the fact that Yang Chen-Fu's older sons do not lean forward in their postures and neither do any of the senior students who are still living -- even Cheng Man Ching did not lean forward.
If you read anything by Yang Zheng-Dou, he is always saying that one should refer to the photos of his father.

[Mark M]

We do lean forward in some postures, I'm not sure from your post exactly what you are stating about leaning forward. I can tell you definitely that this is the way my teacher was taught by Chen Fu.