Good site

[phoenix-eye]

Check out www.taichi-online.com (http://www.taichi-online.com)

Seems like a good site (but I don't do Tai Chi.)

:confused:

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[EARTH DRAGON]

what about this site do you find good? it costs money to be a member and you cant simply veiw the contents of the site! may be after you pay money you get something, but I dont see a lot of people paying money before you can view the material. just my opinon

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Repulsive Monkey]

I would have to declare that I found the site poor. From the limited information it showed and at what it hinted on the inside and its whole general set-up it seems a bit of a scam. Master Chen Lei, seems to specialise in Hsing-Yi more than anything else. In fact it say that he spnt most of his time involed with Wushu. Wushu does not mean that you are any good at Taiji Quan, not by a long shot. In fact most people fail to see the similarities to be honest.

To be honest there are many other superior sites than this one.

[phoenix-eye]

I told you - I don't study tai-chi. Just found it and thought I'd post it up for you more knowledgeable peeps to comment on.

I've no axe to grind either way.

Agree about the charges though - that is a bit poor.

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[Julian Dale]

Chen Lei's wu shu is of a reasonably high standard
traditional unknown, is being promoted quite heavily in UK at the moment

[Sum Guye]

Earth Dragon wrote: "what about this site do you find good? it costs money to be a member and you cant simply veiw the contents of the site! may be after you pay money you get something, but I dont see a lot of people paying money before you can view the material."

Completely contridicting your own argument on the
'how can I tell a good teacher' thread. You really crack me up, man.

If you (other folks) want to see a GREAT site
go to: http://WWW.SHENWU.COM/
check out the Virtual Academy for some great clips of internal action.

[Kaitain(UK)]

'Virtual Academy' - it's pretty bad

the sparring videos are the worst - since when was internal fighting kickboxing? Where was the sticking? Lots of bouncing around and unnecessary movement. Countering as opposed to arriving first etc etc.

Pushing hands - I saw no principles being followed, most were being smashed to pieces.

Techniques - there's no point demonstrating techniques against a slow 'wilted' punch - it shows nothing. The Slant Fly demonstration is bad - the body contact should be arriving as the attacker is placing their foot.

And as a last bone to pick - why do people insist on pushing someone away. If you've got contact then you hit them until they fall down - using the leg in brush knee should be to get them falling over it so they lose any root they had - the next thing should be to bring them back into you with something like the turn after punch to groin, then follow that with a counter-rotating elbow etc etc - never stop flowing.

Apologies if people think I'm harsh - but if you put something up to be viewed then you have to take the flack that comes.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Sum Guye]

I welcome flak.
I don't think you're harsh...you're wrong, but not harsh.

"Since when is internal fighting Kickboxing" fighting is fighting... fighting using internal principles is still fighting... even better if your opponent is using external principles. Someone who trains to actually use internal in an actual fight has a better chance in a real fight.

Tai Ji, Bagua, Yi Chuan I've studied have lots of kicks. You may not realize it yet, but the forms are done the way they are in order to teach body mechanics and movement with structural stability... when in a realistic fight the movements aren't as slow and pretty- but they're still the same application.

sticking and/or extra bouncing: you must've only been paying attention to the guy who was sparring with Tim, the teacher -Tim was sticking wasn't bouncing and he's smooth and fluid throughout.

'countering as opposed to arriving first'... you
don't spar do you?

push-hands principles... when you progress enough to work on wiggly gung you'll understand what you were seeing on that clip, (which is a 1 minute segment from a couple of guys who were doing various push/sticky hands non-cooperative practice for about 30 minutes that afternoon).
I'd love for you to enlighten me on what principles are being 'smashed to pieces'.

Slant Flying... that's a clip of a teacher explaining HOW to do a technique to a class-
starting out with a slow 'wilted' punch is how you work your way up to full speed fighting.
Do you think it better for students to just hurl punches at each other till they figure out how the counter should work?

and lastly, your 'bone to pick'... typically it is safer to knock a thug down and run away. (pushing away and pushing down/throwing are not the same thing). But we are taught to follow the person to the ground, counters to counters and finally a painful submission. But safe escape from danger is always prefered.

As for your suggestion
"...to get them falling over it so they lose any root they had - the next thing should be to bring them back into you with something like the turn after punch to groin,..." that shows your lack of understanding of the concept of keeping the opponent going in the direction of his momentum.
'Unroot them- (so they're falling over your leg) then pull them back into you'.... that might work on someone much smaller than you, but if a muscle-bound gang banger attacks you you're better off working with his momentum than trying to wing him back and forth around you.

Peace, love and get your learn on,
Sum Guye

[Kaitain(UK)]

says I sparred a fair bit and fought a fair bit

but tbh I have my opinion and you have yours - you clearly have a vested interest in the site so I'm not going to argue with you as you are bound to see things a certain way.

I stand by my comments and I'll happily talk them out with you in private (email chutney_boy@lineone.net) but you've already started making assumptions about me so I'd rather not do it here in case it turns into a personal attack.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[EARTH DRAGON]

dont let sum guy try to tell you your wrong or anything else for that matter, the only reason he supports that site is becuse thats his school! I found it quite hard to veiw with seriouness also but aside from his lack of real skill he is a terible role model and a lousy P.R rep! plus you cant tell him anything becuse he knows all so please dont waste your time.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Wongsifu]

kaitan sounds rite to me , and sum guy sounds like its his school ... hehehe nothing new here then ...

I wongsifu shall strike fear into the hearts of trolls and mma guys who **** me off on these forums oh and in real life.

[Sum Guye]

I do attend the Shen Wu school, but it's not "mine".

I have nothing to gain from the website, nor have I contributed to the site.. so I don't have vested intrest in it.

I don't do 'personal attacks' but I'm adept at personal retaliations (Earth Dragon is the only person on this board who has drawn my retaliation).

I do, however, spend a bit of time checking out other sites... (I've poked around on every site
linked to the posters on this board during the year since I started checking out this board)...the Shen Wu philosophy of fighting and explanations of Ba Gua, Tai Ji and Hsing Yi are better than any I've found elsewhere... which has much to do with why I attend the school. (Which is also why Tim Cartmell is one of the most respected authority on Chinese Martial Arts in case you haven't read his books or articles)

I'd still like to know what principles were being smashed to bits in the push hands clip. And since this came up in a public discussion board, I'll skip the private e-mailing as I'd rather not start that type of relationship with you, but I'm all ears for any/all your answers though.
(don't forget, I'm a terrible role model! :eek:)

[This message was edited by Sum Guye on 10-02-01 at 04:23 PM.]

[This message was edited by Sum Guye on 10-02-01 at 04:23 PM.]

[toddbringewatt]

SumGye,

Cartmell rocks!! His explanation of the term Internal (found on his website) changed my paradigm on the subject forever. I think he's brilliant.

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

[EARTH DRAGON]

I dont have anything against you personally and it was YOU who took time out of his life to insult me in the first place! so please lets get that straight for I am too old to argue with anybody especially on the **** internet! this is not the kids forum so lets bury the hatchet and be freinds OK! I have many people on hear that I respect highly and many that respect me, so please lets put out positive comments and opinons and leave the negitivity out side alright?

(Which is also why Tim Cartmell is one of the most respected authority on Chinese Martial Arts in case you haven't read his books or articles)

I did see the effortsless throws tape for I love shuai chiao and his throws were good but I would not go as far a saying he is one of the most respected authority on Chinese Martial Arts! for most chinese masters do not sell themselvs to the public for profits.! they would sooner die with the information than make it available to the general public.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kaitain(UK)]

you have a vested interest in that school - you are a student of it!

I see no point in discussing the good/bad points of a school you attend - you're hardly going to be objective are you? It's like me being objective about John Ding or Ip Tai Tak - not possible as I respect my teachers.

I respect your relationship with your school and instructor - there is no point in discussing either.

However, to show this isn't some blag to avoid justifying my arguments I'll cover the push hands stuff - please try and take this as my opinion on what I saw, not a personal attack on your instructor.

The push hands clip - I saw a lot of 'floaty hips', pelvis tilting and panic responses to pushes as well as little to no segmentation. Pushing hands is supposed to use the concepts from the form - it isn't a seperate exercise in and of itself. None of those errors should appear in the form - they are indicative of bad structure and are unable to receive or issue any energy.

There is an exercise called the seven point body push that trains total yielding that looks similiar - except you concentrate on keeping the hips level, the Kua points closing and opening according to your movements. It follows a set pattern - one pushes/pulls to the seven points, one yields whilst maintaining structure - you then train normal pushing hands with that feeling in mind.

I'm probably going to regret posting this but I hope you take it for the discussion opener it is meant to be.

Regards...

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Sum Guye]

you said I have a vested intrest in the site.
which I don't.

[Kaitain(UK)]

Do you study at that school? (I believe you do)

If yes then you have a vested interest in the site as it relates to your own study of martial art. Any criticism I make of what is on there could be perceived as an attack on what you yourself are learning.

I don't think you made the site or earn money from it - but 'vested interest' is not a fiscal term. Not how I understand it anyway.

Also - you put the link up with 'This is a GREAT site' - which displays your opinion of the content. Any criticism of the site is a criticism of your opinion. Vested interest.

We could carry on being pedantic about the english language or we could talk Internal arts... I prefer the latter:

No comment on the pushing hands stuff? I'd be interested in your take on it.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

edited for spelling :)

[This message was edited by Kaitain(UK) on 10-04-01 at 01:42 AM.]

[Sum Guye]

"Do you study at that school?"
[yes. I do study at that school]

"If yes then you have a vested interest in the site as it relates to your own study of martial art. Any criticism make of what is on there could be perceived as an attack on what you yourself are learning."
[ I see where you're going.. but I don't think it's the case. Which reminds me.. where may I see footage of any of you or your teachers demonstrating or sparring?]

"I don't think you made the site or earn money from it - but 'vested interest' is not a fiscal term. Not how I understand it anyway."
[ya got me there... I had always considered it a fiscal term till I looked it up just now- if nothing else, thanks for that insight]

"No comment on the pushing hands stuff?"
[Well, you said I should simply take it as your opinion, which I did. And since you weren't being snotty (like Earth Dragon gets when he spouts his opinion) I saw no reason to respond. Now that you've asked me to; I know quite a bit about push hands and what you discribed are the early stage drills and exercises... which will progress to something much like what you viewed on the ShenWu site. Your 'floaty hips', 'no segmentation' and
'panic response' observations were incorrect.

I understand that the beauty of internal arts is that oftentimes what looks like 'nothing' can feel like something incredably powerful. I don't begrudge you the fact that you don't recognize it when you see it every time.]


[Yes, I've sparred with strangers.
No, I do not own/run a school... I know my skill and understanding aren't to the level I expect of a teacher... so, I'm working my way there. And when I am a teacher, any one is welcome to do a little friendly sparring and I'll be able to handle myself if someone snaps (and I'll keep good health insurance in case a Mike Tyson pops in).

If you care to list any other points I've neglected to debate.. please do.

[Kaitain(UK)]

thank you for the civil response - I've never aimed to be confrontational and I'm glad that you recognise that. It is something I used to be guilty of all the time and I try hard to think before I post to avoid argument. My initial comment on the site was not phrased in the best way and I would have been riled by it. Apologies.

I get where you're coming from with the push hands, but I stick to my opinion of the structures that I see. Since I can't be there to try it for myself I'll leave it alone though as it isn't something that can be readily debated.

The areas that can be debated - the exercise I described is trained at all levels - it is a 'loosener'. I train free-step and free-form pushing hands for about 6 hours a week - but I always train the seven point push as an exercise as it is extremely valuable.

One query I have - do you always train fixed step push hands with a square stance? I can see that it trains instant yielding as it is not easy to root anything from a square posture (empty corner being behind you etc) - is that the goal?. Do you train fixed-step with left and right side forwards?

Another area I would like to clear up now that we're talking and listening to each other. When I questioned the validity of the sparring on the basis that it was kick-boxing - please notethat I spar at range as well - that includes kicks, knees etc. What I was querying was that the actual sparring was not very internal (imho) - when the black guy was throwing punches the other guy was not sticking to them and attacking from there, he was countering all the time. I train to arrive first - so as my opponent starts to move I attack his shape with whatever comes out and I have 'arrived' before his technique has got very far. This has the benefit that his mind is focussed on his technique and not mine - if he finishes his technique and then I counter then he is already considering defence. What are the goals in sparring the way that video shows? Is it to build familiarity with ranged fighting? Obviously I never trained that as I've sparred for years, I went straight to sticking to what comes and built from that.

I also believe that there was too much unnecessary movement from both people - that may not be a fault in your system but in mine it is something that I had bludgeoned out of me (Muay Thai is habit forming :)). I am taught that any unnecessary movement is detrimental to my effectiveness.

AFAIK neither John Ding or Ip Tai Tak have any footage available (John has some beginners videos but like many instructors he strips everything of use out of the form). Ip Tai Tak is releasing a book soon that should be very valuable to Yang stylists - John Ding has translated it so there will be no ambiguity. I don't know what the focus is, but Ip Tai Tak is known as the best 'applications' man in the family so I have high hopes that the book will be full of good stuff... unlike me he is extremely self-effacing and I would think he has value to anyone that studies Taiji.

Thanks again for allowing this conversation to hit an even keel

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Kaitain(UK)]

http://www.taichifinder.co.uk/ding/academy.php

that's the John Ding academy site - but it is awful :) Marketing related crap

As I've stated on the London Taiji thread - what John knows and what he teaches to beginners are very different things. It took my instructor 5 years before he started getting 'the good stuff' - minor posture changes, slightly different movement, exercises that build immense structure, pushing hands beyond push/pull.

Maybe the biggest failing of the traditional Chinese methods of teaching is that they don't attract the martially minded very easily - I would never have gone to the school if it wasn't for the back injury I suffered. Then I found the martial aspects and pursued them diligently - my instructor and I work hard to build real application and skill - too often Yang stylists are fixated with the Yin aspects of fighting, failing to see that the Yang has its equal place and must be considered.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Sum Guye]

Darn, I was headed for bed.. but I want to take full advantage of our civility. (2:42am now.. I have to get up for work in a few)

"Do you always train fixed step push hands with a square stance?"
[no. that is just training of a kind of 'wiggly' gong. It's is incredibly hard to maintain stability from that square position. But the training can come in very handy in an unexpected face off in a jammed pub! The neutralization is turned into an attack immediately... mostly replying on relaxation, posture and hip/waist turning. To have the ability to remain stable toe to toe in a square stance easily translates into any other foot work you'll need.]

[We do a lot of moving push hands and sticky hands. Mostly Non cooperative... but rarely fixed-step. If anyone was interested in fixed-step competition, I'm sure Tim would teach them- but all of our stuff is geared to live action, mobile opponents. Fixed-step is only a training tool... it was never intended for sport- but it is far less dangerous for folks who don't want to get dirty or injured.]

"-when the black guy was throwing punches the other guy was not sticking to them and attacking-"
[That black guy is Meynard. He's actually Filipino, he's going to love that one.]

[I can see how those clips are misleading. Tim, (the white guy with the spikey hair) is the teacher. Meynard (the black/Filipino) is one of the more scrappy students... Tim is letting Meynard attack.. and also learn to(try to) defend against Tim's counters. The clips are not actually Tim fending off an attacker. It's more like a Lion training a cub. The cub gets better and better- but the lion could snap him in half at anytime (they both respect that). Tim and I are the same weight but he hits like a Mac truck (although it looks like he's just moving forward)...he is a big proponent of "move second/ arrive first" but if he did this all the time none of us students would ever learn anything but pain.

Those clips don't show that because they are all just made by a guy taping a class. Tim's not trying to prove anything in those clips... he's not really thrilled about being on camera... he's just training his students.

To your latest post- Thanks,I'll check that link out later. I, too, got into Tai Ji without any martial intent.. later I met a teacher who was all about the martial side.. it was great. And he introduced me to Tim.

The beginers at ShenWu are throwing and submitting people the first night (most of them anyway).It is a shame that so many schools put off the fun stuff so long. I'm lucky that I've found teachers who teach the forms in conjunction with the applications... it makes the forms make SOOOOOOO much more sense.

I'm done.
By the time I check back in that pesky dragon will have misinterpreted all of this and will have posted several lengthy, nonsensical retorts to things neither of us ever posted... just wait and see.

Peace, love and crumpets.
Sum Guye (3:14)

[This message was edited by Sum Guye on 10-04-01 at 03:43 AM.]

[EARTH DRAGON]

I find it good that you can actually talk about your opinon in a civilized mannor and realize that everyone is entiltled to their own opinon! As I said before I do not wish to fight with you or anybody else on this forum. I use it for its actual basis, to ask/answer questions, discover new arts and their principles and generally talk about the thing we all love kung fu. Again I do not defend until I am attacked, and I beleive it was you who drew first blood, but no harm done lets just let sleeping dogs lay, even if their on our favorite slippers.

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Sum Guye]

remember when you posted this...

"you are right my opinon is wrong you are better and smarter than me!"

(on the 'How to tell a good/bad instructor' thread)

...don't forget it.


Bruce Leroy- I'd forgotten all about that movie,
I'll rent it this weekend if I have time... I hope its as funny as I remember it. I'm glad you liked the ShenWu site.

"now get in the bed and funk like folks is laughin' at you" George Clinton

[phoenix-eye]

Sorry guys - I should have asked if it was a good site not said it WAS a good site.

Seems to have started a good old barney though.

Have fun.

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[EARTH DRAGON]

the only reason I said that was to shut you up! but I guess it didnt work.
here's one you might like.......................... YOURE RIGHT see if that one works he he

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Kaitain(UK)]

Taking a slice of humbe pie here

I decided best way to form an opinion on something is to try it, so I tried your 'wiggly gong' with another student last night (cleared it with da boss first) and realised that what looks badly structured isn't necessarily so. I actually enjoyed training it as it removes any competitiveness from pushing hands - some students are hard to train with as they view it as a win/lose situation. With the squared stance it becomes an interplay of energy with anyone who trains it.

My instructor liked it as well - he drew the same parallel as me, our seven-point body push trains the same thing but your way is more fun :).

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Repulsive Monkey]

I have just read an interview with Master Chen Lei in the Martial Arts Illustrated October edition. He is so vague in his description of Tai Chi it's unbelieveable. The only word hebandies about throught out the interview is Wushu (and always with the official "Taditional" stamp in front of it). His aim is to teach Wushu over the internet, so TRADITIONAL Wushu that is. Now I don't wish to slam or slight the art that he does practise but, in my eyes it sounds like that his Tai Chi is not up to much. When he used the word Chi, it was non-contextual, and irrelevant. He mentions nothing of his Tai Chi lineage or masters or where it had come from. The article may of course been directed towards the editors own proclivities and interests, and Master Lei may of played up to this of course. But when the fact that he ahd learnt over 100 different forms, and this was seen as an acheivement I naturally thought "Yeah, but are you any good at any of them"? This is all a bit out of character for me, and I don't usually slate people this much but the inital look at the site turned me off of it frm the start, and the recent interview I read confirmed it. I can say that from what I've read he certainly is NO Tai Chi Master, thats definite.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Force comes from the bones; chin comes from the sinews.

I too went through / getting through the idea of holding a structure together based only on alignment.

“Standing like a balanced scale” really fits this idea.

return to the wheel of life, not ready yet

bamboo leaf