Zazen from a Qigong perspective?

[Samurai Jack]

Hello all. As some of you may or may not be aware, I've been a practitioner of Zen meditation (zazen) for some years, although I stopped for around six months and just picked it up again a few weeks ago. I have a chronic back pain at the sixth and seventh thoracic vertabrae, most likely due to mild scholiosis, which is evidenced by an imbalance between my right and left shoulder. I have learned to correct the imbalance through conscious effort, but the pain has never really subsided.

When I first began practicing zazen, I noticed an increase in the pain between my shoulders acompanied by sensations of heat, and even sweating in that localized region. I've done a little Qigong in the past, and think it's likely that it's a Qi blockage phenomena. After sitting zazen regularly over a period of about a year or so, I noticed that the pain would disappear, or at least greatly lessen, during zazen sessions, but it would return if I had a lull in my practice. Either way, there seems to be little change if any while I'm not doing zazen.

So my question is, does anyone have any experience with the Qigong aspects of seated meditation? Can anyone recommend any books, or even teachers/ healers who may have some knowledege here?

Essentially, I'm willing to live with the pain for the rest of my life (I don't really have a choice). On the other hand I'm REALLY interested in finding out how zazen has been effecting my condition.

[Yaksha]

Here is a story that comes from zen tradition:
--
A student went to his meditation teacher and said, "My meditation is horrible! I feel so distracted, or my legs ache, or I'm constantly falling asleep. It's just horrible!"
"It will pass," the teacher said matter-of-factly.

A week later, the student came back to his teacher. "My meditation is wonderful! I feel so aware, so peaceful, so alive! It's just wonderful!'

"It will pass," the teacher replied matter-of-factly.

http://www.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/willpass.html
--

Something that I think from my qigong training is that you might have a posture that requires too much muscle in that area. The posture isn't aligned, causing the muscles to be stiff, causing qi stagnation, causing pain. Try to find a posture where your bones rest naturally upright wihout so much muscular counterforce. You may have to stretch you back muscles in that area until the bones can rest easily in that posture. If you are always slouching or are just not very flexible, the muscles may have tightened that way so the bones get pushed out of their proper alignment causing muscular force to be necessary to pull them back. You probabally just need to stretch there more often.

[Samurai Jack]

Actually the scholiosis is caused by the bones themselves being slightly misshapen. Therefore if I just allow them to support weight without interference, it causes more damage because the connective tissues become misaligned as well. According to western medicine the only surefire method is surgery. According to my former Qigong teacher and my accupuncturist, I must "make" my body adopt the posture which will be optimal so as to minimize the restriction in Qi flow.

Just to clarify, I know that Qi effects are not the purpose of proper zen training, but I also expect that there is probably an indirect Qigong effect anyway since the postures adopted in zazen are so widely used by Qigong practitioners.

Thanks for the suggestion Yaksha. I will start stretching my spine more often as I've let that aspect of my practice slide a little.

[Yaksha]

http://www.iscoliosis.com/faq-doesscoliosis.html

scoliosis doesn't hurt. I doubt you have a spinal deformity. If you have any reasonable concerns that it might be mis-shapen bones, go get yourself x-rayed.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Samurai Jack,

Do not think that it is required to sit in any particular posture when practicing meditation. One of the purposes of Zen is to free the mind from preconceived notions. Sitting is merely a tool used in meditating. To think that a certain sitting posture is necessary is to follow an illusion and creates attachment to form, which Zen is intending to transcend.

It is perfectly permissible to sit in a chair or lie down. It is even permissible to fall asleep when meditating. Many Zen masters in Japan and China have cautioned about getting too caught up in meditation in the first place. Attachment to any kind of form binds us to the illusion of life and is an impediment to illumination!

Chi blockage can occur wherever there is muscle strain or injury. It is most likely muscle strain that is causing your discomfort. This is indicated by the fact that it dissipates over time when you have become more accustomed to the sitting posture. It is best treated with rest, ice, anti-inflammatories and massage. Then when the pain and stiffness has subsided you can strengthen the muscles and if you insist on adhering to strict Zazen posture, do so in short increments until your muscles adapt to the stresses.

[Mikkyou]

One important thing is to check your posture.Are your shoulder sunk or raised
is your back loosely rounded is your neck picked up with your chin slightly tucked in.If you are feeling pain in a posture then the posture is done incorrectly or simply not for you.Try a lying down posture,resting the back on something,taking a hot shower to relax the muscle followed by a self body massage.When ever I have a feeling of blockage I visualize the Qi moving in a circle slowly disolving and moving away from the blocked area eventually the Qi begins to flow its natural movement.

[Samurai Jack]

Yaksha: Thanks for the link. I'm not sure how you interpreted that to mean "scoliosis dosen't hurt" though. Here's a quote from your source:

"The adult patient with scoliosis typically presents with pain, which may be debilitating and is often the primary reason for consultation. The adult spine has degenerative changes, which in conjunction with spinal curvatures are often the source of pain. Nerve impingement or 'pinched nerves' may arise as a result of a disc herniation or narrowing of the space for the nerves (foramen) as they exit the spine in severe scoliosis."

This describes my situation. I've lived with it for fifteen years and I've been seen by many specialists. I hope this clarifies.

Scott R. Brown: "Form is emptiness, Emptiness is form." Of course attachment to form violates the Buddha Dharma. On the other hand, attachment to formlessness is equally nonproductive. Sitting for thirty minutes a day will not create injury. Discomfort passes; pleasure passes; two sides of one coin. Balance is the key. Thank you for the reminder. ;)

Mikkyou: Thank you for the good ideas. Hot showers are a definite boon.

[Pakmei]

Hi There,
Speaking as an acupuncturist and tuina practitioner, there are actually two forms of scholiosis (structrual and functional)

Structural scholiosis is the deformation and degeneration of the bones in the spinal column. From a TCM point of view, treatment would be to establish the free flow of qi and blood through the du and bladder meridians. Structuraly there isn't a great deal that can be done however energetically the pain can be reduced dramatically.

Functional scholiosis is due to bad posture, over developed muscles on one side of the body, etc. This can be confirmed by locating and observing the affected part the spine, then asking the person to forward flex (bend forward) their body. If the scholiosis then disappears this confirms that its functional.

This can be treated with either acupuncture and or tuina massage to reduce the excess energy in the over developed side, then strengthening and invigorating the free flow of qi and blood in the under developed side. From here, the person would have to pay particular attention to their habitual body postures and retrain the body in re-structuring their body ito the correct posture, to lessen the possible reoccurence.

From a TCM and qi gong perspective, if the person feels pain! Then this is a sign of qi and blood stagnation within the meridians.

[Samurai Jack]

Thanks for the information Pakmei. Indeed, I may seek out an acupuncturist again when I can afford treatment. My scholiosis is the type that dosen't disappear when I flex my spine forward; in fact it becomes even more obvious because the vertebrae in the afflicted area seem to "disappear" for lack of a better description. I remember the first time I saw an X-ray of my back. The Doctors said, "If it isn't corrected now, it'll worsen and never get better." It was so discouraging to see the extent of my deformity and know that I'd probably have to life with it forever because my parents couldn't afford the treatment. Ah well, such is life.

[northernArts]

I recommend Spring Forest Qigong (http://www.bornahealer.com).

There is also a SFQ discussion forum (http://www.learningstrategies.com/forum/cgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Spring+Forest+Qigong&number=9&DaysPrune=75&LastLogin=) where you can ask questions of practitioners and senior students of Chunyi Lin:).

[gungfujosh]

You know, I hate to sound like a fanatical believer in mystical cures--- but I have personally witnessed a lot of people gotten better from a lot of various things through what I can only call a power qi gong. They just moved a lot of chi through the affected area—and not the passive completely relaxed motions—a more intense dynamic tension exercise like the I-Ching-Ching. Real strong breathing through clenched teeth and tightened muscles. Hopefully it will have the effect of a high pressure hose on the affected area. I understand your problem is at the bone layer---but in my 9 years in the healing fields—I have to say I have to recommend it – if you are comfortable trying. (Or not trying—doing since there is only do—or do not. There is no try).

[Samurai Jack]

It's funny that you two mention these things; I just got in touch with my old Kung fu teacher who is a big advocate of Chi Kung standing practice. I realized that I did recieve a huge benifit from his teachings. My back would be alot more crooked than it is if it wasn't for Standing.

As far as Dynamic tension's concerned, I am working on Muscle / Tendon Change right now. Thanks for the reminder, and the excellent ideas!

[7th gen yang]

Just a thought to this thread :)

One of my teachers broke his back, he was paralized for 6 month's from the neck down one of the things that has helped him was hanging upside down in fact he does it everyday to this day (he's 68 yrs old with the body of an 18 year old). I also Injured my back in high school so If you have alignment problems this will help straighten them (Should always consult a doctor)

I have showed people how to do it properly if they can get past the first hour then usally they will achieve the results that they expect I have personally fell asleep hanging.(make sure you have some one to get you down)

Most of the time especially if you have never experienced this the first time will make you feel sick to your stomach or light headed (less than 5 minutes will create this effect) this subsides after a couple of weeks continue by adding more time every time you do it and your body adjusts to the position I have even learned to eat and drink hanging

If you can relax and stay there through continued practice all of your muscles in your back and legs will relax and your spine will crack all by itself I experience almost all of my vertibrae cracking Talk about alignment! there is a trick to keep the blood rushing to the head if you can stay up long enough

I have grown accustomed to the gravity boots I just added more padding for the ankles but the inversion table is pretty comfortable also

I have been doing this for 14 years now and it helped with my zhanzhuang meditation and My back feels good you will be suprised how much your back is compressed just sitting in a chair you will notice a change if you pay attention!

[zarkof]

If I may return to the original post, there is an important qigong aspect any meditation, depending on the position you are in. If you sit in lotus, you press and close your thighs, which is closing the bottom of your body energy structure. This is good for opening the mind and achieving freedom but not for circulation of energy. Seiza keeps legs parallel, and not crossed, so it doesn't take into account the polarity of legs (left leg yang, right leg yin for men), and this sort of organization is not suitable for spiral rising of energy. Normal cross legged sitting is very hard for lower back and it takes much effort to keep correct posture which can be distracting. Best practice for correct body alignment is cross legged sitting on a hard cushion, slightly above ground, with left leg in front of the right for men, and opposite for women. Arms rest on knees. Also it is important not to relax the legs, perineum and lower back completely but to keep a good and balanced posture. Upper body and head are held like in the standing meditation. Tongue touches the palatum. And a very important thing is not to pay attention to sensations, just keep correct posture.
I've had similar back problems, and this is a very helpful position for meditation.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

begin learning the internal control of chi and blood. when you get strong enough that you can control individual muscle fibers and arteries/veins you should try to direct the chi directly to the damaged part of your back. you can direct it to straighten your back; force muscle development; or even force muscle destruction by starvation.

to begin this practice start with the internal elixer practice as described and illustrated by Wong Kiew Kit. practice this meditation as described in his book until the control is established and can be repeated upon whim. then initiate the qiqong for the type of muscle redevelopment you desire.

external methods for this type of qiqong via tui na and accupuncture are very expensive.

[GeneChing]

Funny you should mention Zazen. I just got back from a short work study at Tassajara Zen Mind Temple and it's rekindled my zazen practice somewhat. Although I'm far from diligent, I'm finding it's making me less argumentative at work, and that's a good thing, especially for my coworkers. Anyway, my wife was there to give massages to the students in exchange for her stay and commented that all the students were in really great physical shape overall. They all needed more massage work - that sleep deprivation is pretty hard on them. Their spines were very strong; she said it was like two solid cords on either side of the spinal cord, but they all seemed to hold a lot of tension in their arms, which she attributed to the posture of zazen. The students have a fairly rigorous practice there.

Anyway, my return to zazen got me thinking about yijinjing again, mostly because it's such a great compliment to zazen, and I've totally forgotten it. According to the dominent creation legend of yijinjing and xisuijing, Bodhidharma made it (and all of kung fu) just to help zazen practice. It occured to me how brilliant xisuijing is for exactly this purpose. I've never learned the sequence, only seen it described in books and vidoes, but the general format of seated calesthenics seems really good for zazen, perhaps even more appropriate than yoga, which is where many American Zen practitioners turn for help. Clearly, you need some practice to offset zazen. I'm thinking if I continue my zazen practice, I should pursue xisuijing more aggressively.

Here are some resources for you:
Xisuijing by Sh Guolin (http://www.martialartsmart.net/pr-gs009.html) Yijinjing by Shi Guolin (http://www.martialartsmart.net/pr-gs001.html)
Yijingjing by Shi Deqian (http://www.martialartsmart.net/vidshaolmusc.html)
Yijinjing poster by Shi Deqian (http://www.martialartsmart.net/8511.html)

[Samurai Jack]

Thanks for the reply and the sources Gene. My zazen isn't what it used to be either. It would be really nice to have an online sanga somewhere to sit with, since my home temple is so far away.

It has occured to me that if I get really good at sitting regularly, perhaps I won't care that I've got a back-ache! I think that would be just fine.

Gasho :)

[GeneChing]

Online sangha? Isn't this the online sangha? Sorry, am I in the wrong room? :rolleyes:

Iv'e been trying to imagine how an online sangha would work. We'd all log on at a certain time, there would be some sort of CG bell tolling to signify the start of zazen, then we'd all sit and stare at a blank screen. Surely, the sangha is one of the three treasures, but you don't need the sangha to practice zazen. It might help, but that's really only another attachment.

I remember once watching a documentary on Japanese Budo with my kendo sensei. it was all shot at these beautiful locations, the beach, temples, the forest, just gorgeuos scenary. Jokingly, I chided my sensei about our dojo, which was just a classroom at San Jose State that wasn't used in the evenings. 'Why can't we practice some where like that?' I said. One of my sensei, a dreadlocked rasta, retorted sternly, 'You can practice wherever you like.' I've always carried that lesson. He nailed it on the head, my head, with a big fat oki shinai. You can practice wherever you like. If you need your home temple, or an online sangha, that's just delusions created by your attachments.

Just sit.

[David Jamieson]

hmmmm, I think http://zombo.com covers the zazenzombo experience, but there is no tea and cookies afterward and it lacks a discussion group to wander into the infinitely collapsing spiral of self examination rumination that takes place when the zendo has emptied. :p

[Qiman]

Hi Jack,
I have this book called "Cultivatiing the Chi" I think the author is Olsen but I can't find it right now. Well anyway, a seated set called Micro-Cosmic Orbit is explained and taught. Very good!!!

PS: It seems that you and I have walked a lot of the same path. I just had surgery at L4/L5 level.