Thinkers Vs. do'ers

[hskwarrior]

What's up Ya'll?

i have a question. has anyone ever dealt with a "Thinker" as opposed to a "Do'er?" or maybe how does your sifu handle teaching a thinker.

for example, you show a techinque to a student. all of the other students are working hard away at practicing them. but you always have the one student who holds everyone back because he is more focused on "75% on the exterior extremidy, 10% on the big toe, while rotating blah blah blah!

the way i handle them is i go through a barrage of various different approaches for the student to understand.

what i would like to hear is how others deal with thinkers.


thanks
hskwarrior

[SevenStar]

nothing wrong with thinkers, IMO - thinking is a good thing. It will make them better students AND teachers down the line. When I teach, I encourage thinking and questions. We do plenty of drilling and sparring, so they have plenty of time to apply what they are learning. Also, I stay after class and train with one of the other coaches, so if anyone has questions, they can continue to ask them at that time.

[hskwarrior]

so what do you do when you demonstrate a technique and the rest of the class got it on the first few tries but the thinker actually holds up the class because of his thinking about the technique?

of course i agree, being a thinker will later on improve skills, teaching, etc. but there is a time and place to think.

for example, in a street fight if you spend to much time thinking instead of fighting there's a chance the fight will be over and the student wouldn't be aware of it because he is too busy thinking about what he should do instead of just doing.

i mean if i'm teaching him a hand technique that intertwines with the horse the thinker get mind boggled and takes more time to learn the moves due to his thinking too much. one he is thinking about how to properly execute the strike but all the while is letting his horse go to hell.

hopfully i am clear with what i mean, if not i'll try again.

thanks
hskwarrior

[CLFNole]

HSKWarrior:

I think everyone is getting confused with what you are asking. When I first read it I thought the same thing. The guy was just analyzing the technique. If he plain holds up the class just keep the pace fairly quick and make it so he doesn't have time to think, which in turn will help him in the long run in reacting in fight and not thinking.

Tell him something like "breakdown the movement later, right now I what you to react as this what you would have to do in a live stituation. Understanding the technique and breaking it down is good but you need to be able to react without thinking."

If nothing works just keep the class going and ignore him until he comes around. :p

By the way, how is the book coming?

[hskwarrior]

clfnole,

you've never trained with me before. see, i'm not the type of teacher who leaves a student behind. the way i see it my other students can double up their basics while their classmate gets up to speed. i won't leave anyone behind.

anyways you can't stop a thinker from thinking, it's how do i get across to him faster. believe me i got many ways of getting the point across, it's just that i don't deal with too many thinkers. the way i learned was to do then think afterwards once i got it memorized. thinkers want to think about it before they memorize it.
but, then that's when private lessons come into play. you try to tell a thinker to try this techniquesay "HMMMM, that's interesting. Why would i want to do that?
anyways, i'll figure it out.

about the book, well, things got a little crazy out here for me and it went on the back burner. and, i never had a computer until now, so my book will be finished soon. then i have some dvd's i'm working on, and a video version of my first book. things like that. trying to do some big things. that's how we do it, man!

anyways i was out in kansas with my students soon after my sifu came back from a month in Fut San.

frank

[Liddel]

There is such a thing as thinking to much or not at the right time.
I treat thinkers the same way my Sifu treated me.
If someone holds back the class as you mention, we usually explain the 'why' its done (the action/technique) and when (timing) in a little more detail to satisfy their interest and then if they still dont quite understand or have more questions we dont answer them untill it is put into acrtion...try it first...then
One of two things happen,
- more questions arise in the students mind, or
- the students questions are answer from the experience of using it in a mock situation.
Thinking is great as far as we are concerened because we all need an idea or theory to support the use of any action. If you know 'why' then you have a better understanding and are better prepared to use it in diferent, changing situations.

[joedoe]

Ask them to practice the technique and save up their questions for after the class.

[SevenStar]

so what do you do when you demonstrate a technique and the rest of the class got it on the first few tries but the thinker actually holds up the class because of his thinking about the technique?


I addressed that in my post as well. I stay after class - any questions can be answered then. Tell him that his question will be answered, but not at the current time. Or, in the event that you have more than one instructor present (which we always do) you can let him work it with the other instructor. If the movement is that confusing to him, he may not need to move on.

[SevenStar]

anyways you can't stop a thinker from thinking, it's how do i get across to him faster.

you may not be able to. Different people learn different things at different speeds. I wouldn't hold up the rest of the class over the one. Take him to the side and allow him to keep working. Let the others keep going. There are guys at our club who learned a proper hook punch in two days. There are some who still couldn't get it right after a month... That's just how it goes.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

so what do you do when you demonstrate a technique and the rest of the class got it on the first few tries but the thinker actually holds up the class because of his thinking about the technique?


hopfully i am clear with what i mean, if not i'll try again.

thanks
hskwarrior

i understand you. there comes a time in every persons life when they are unsure of themselves. the student that asks a lot of questions is unsure of himself. there comes a time when you have to sink or swim by the 'just do it' method. fights are a good example of this.

another way of dealing with that person is to get them after class and explain that there are two main types of martial learning: perfect learning which is related to sudden enlightenment; and gradual understanding which is perfected over time through many corrections.

the third and probably least bread-n-butterish would be to suggest they start taking private lessons.

[hskwarrior]

oh yeah, i totally agree with you in the sense of "just do it!" its what i tell him all the time. "Just copy the movements until you memorize them, then when all that's done ask questions later." but he still continues to slow himself down by contemplating why he is doing what he's doing instead of just doing it.

now, since one of my students was jumped by 8 guys i have backed off teaching forms for now and strictly teaching fighting techniques which is actually helping them understand their essence of their hand forms a little bit better . I love it when you can see their lightbulbs go off. its so cool!

i started them out basically with Kwa Sow Chop and how to use them and all of a sudden i turn around and they added new techniques (in a good sense tho') and it was working out pretty good. it just showed that they are finally understanding now. i feel like a proud daddy, hahaha!

frank

[Ben Gash]

To be an effective teacher you should utilise a variety of styles and methods to get ideas across. If all you do is blast through lines quickly then thinkers are always going to struggle. Conversely, is it the fact that he's struggling to keep up or that the others are just willing to not do it quite right to keep pace? Constant training at speed is guaranteed to breed bad habits in my experience. Personally I feel that students should be allowed to get the feel of the technique, maybe do some 2 man drills with the principle, THEN add speed and power and drill it.

[hskwarrior]

yeah mr. ben gash, i also agree with you too. oh, i don't teach at a fast pace, tho'. I continue to pass on the same traditions as the way my sifu taught me. My other students are doing just fine. and the one thing i've learned by teaching gung fu is patience. oh, he is not the first "thinker" i've taught, i've went thru some rough periods teaching even some of my own classmates, so i've learned some valuable lessons from that as well.

lately, my student has been brining a note pad with him to take notes so while at home he can practice in privacy. but the good thing is that he is not a quitter. slowly, he coming around , slowly.

take it easy,

frank

[David Jamieson]

Thinker, sometimes equals "procrastinator" or "lazy bones" especially when it comes to Kungfu practice.

I agree that the learning styles should all be touched on until it is found which one is most effective for the learner.

But Kungfu is in the hands and not in the musings.

Thinkers should think on it outside of practice time and especially not cut into the learning cycles of their class mates and suck up all the time at hand with questions about minutia.

Now doers on the other hand can be problematic inasmuch as they will move to fast through something and start creating bad habits and incorrect mechanics right out the gate. Again, the approach is to hit their learning style and help them to understand that "correct" is superior to "going fast".

[X-Warrior]

I recall this one guy in our class who just didn't get anything - I mean anything - when it came to learning new things. He had to be explained everything many times before he would understand them, be it just a new technique or an entirely new form.

In cases like yours and the person in our class you might be facing someone with some level or form of learning disability, or a person who just has a hard time learning new things. You refer to this kind of person as the 'thinker' but you might need to stop here a little and think again, he might really be an excellent 'thinker' once he understands things, he might just have issues learning or accepting new things.

As step one, I would try to isolate the real issue here, then find the solution to the problem. If your student really is a person with some form of learning disability, I would say the best thing you could to do is to do some research on the subject and find as much information as possible on how to handle students as such. The above mentioned 'state of mind' is well know and many researches have been done on it; you will only save yourself - and him - a lot of valuable time.

-X-

[travelsbyknight]

I respect thinkers but only the type that asks specifics about how to do the technique.

I can't stand people who ask "what if" questions. What if his other hand comes out? What if he's bigger than me?

What if you shut up and practiced once in a while? That's my reply to these people. The martial arts is learned through doing...not thinking.

[SevenStar]

the what if questions have their place. It gets you thinking on a different level - one of counterattack. Some of them are silly, but some of them are thought out - what happens if I clinch behind his neck instead of the crown of his head? Now, I explain why you go for the crown of the head. What if questions can be quite informational.

[hskwarrior]

Asking "what if" questions definetly have their place and are a good sign the students are interested in what they're learning as well as they're using their minds too. but if i'mm teaching you "Kwa Sow Chop" and you ask "what if?, that you can do after doing the Kwa Sow Chop.

The one bad thing about thinkers is that you tell them to step to the side and show them how you want them to do it, and because they are soooo busy calculating the degree of the angle, if their lower body positioning is in an 50/50, 60/40, perpindicular to the east, the windchill factor, the right velocity as to lbs per sq. inch, ............."God****it, just step out and thow the punch!!!!!!!!!"

anyone know what i mean now?

Once again, ?'s are good, just not in the middle of a training drill.

Frank

[X-Warrior]

HSK, oh I know what you mean. You're right, too much is too much. There is place for 'what if' questions - or matter of fact - any type of questions but if someone is trying every freaking possible scenario, than he is missing the main point and is confused or lost.

LOL ... this just reminded me of the same guy I was talking about, who was just soooo annoying in our class. He would keep asking all kinds of different scenerios, if you explained one, right away he would have another 'what if' scenerio created. Here comes the punch: this guy was a tall man somewhere in his 30s and one day this 14 year old kid standing next to him got mad and asked the guy to show what he wants to know. The guy punched the kid, who in turn threw him on the ground, got on top of him and pounded him like a hammer on nail. The guy, laying on his back was just swinging his arms and legs trying to defend himself from this 14 year old kid on top of him. The kid finally stopped and said: well this is the answer to your question.

Of course the whole class was just bursting in laugh, a 14 year old kid beating this 30 some year old guy. What a great site it was. I think the tall guy finally had to realize that he was too concerned with the little things therefore missing the main picture and that is why even a 14 year old beat the living Jesus out of him. Good answer from a 14 year old. LOL!

-X-

[hskwarrior]

Thank You!

That's exactly what I'm talking about.


That's Funny.


frank

[Eddie]

Boy do we know about thinkers! Specially when you teach at the university, or when your students have some masters degree in something, and they think they should over analyse things.

Thinking is good and encouraged, but over thinking is always bad. Kung Fu is simple, and you learn so much by just doing it. How I handle these guys is to simply tell them to do the techniques the way we show them a good few hundreds of times so that they can have the correct feel, then try it in sparring, and if it still doesn’t work, then they can fire away with questions. Its amazing how lightbulbs suddenly appears when people put theory into action, and when they start to FEEL the moves, instead of UNDERSTANDING it.

That’s approach pretty much work for me. Even the academics end up understanding the techniques once they actually feel what they are suppose to do.

But then again, these things pretty much depends on the teacher’s style of teaching and his/her personality.

Martial arts is about doing, not talking.