bruce lee and "No Way" where did he go wrong?

[hskwarrior]

hey,

i have a question meant with no disrespect to the late bruce lee, but where did he go wrong in getting across his idea of throwing away the traditional techniques and just have no way.

From what i understand is that he stopped teaching Jeet Kune Do to his students because he was turning it into a system instead of purely self expression.

see, i feel (and this is only my opinion) that where he went wrong was he tried to teach a baby how run a mile in 6 seconds flat. however, the baby hasn't even learned to crawl yet. it has to crawl then walk before sprinting.

what i mean is bruce lee already reached a certain level when he made these revelations about having no way. having the ability not to rely on pre-planned techniques in a system. he himself already travelled that road and learned traditional systems.

but to teach a person who has never learned any type of martial art in their life how to block punch and kick instinctively with out any prior training is impossible. and from that point on everything you show that student becomes systematic.

to wrap this up, i feel that bruce lee crawled, walked, and ran before reaching that level of understanding he had. so how could he expect a beginner to comprehend his teachings without crawling, walking and running first.

he had the right idea, but how to get there is where he went wrong.


i hope no one was offended by this, it is just a discussion.

thanks
hskwarrior

[brothernumber9]

Bruce Lee was impatient and just hadnt' reached a level in TCMA that many other sifu eventually reached. And when I say "level" I mean a level with roughly the same ideals as his thinking evolved on traditional arts. He wanted to express freedom of style and allow instant and natural reactions or actions in fighting. He just didn't stick with it long enough to realize that many sifu have made the disciplines they learned their own and are not confined by the stringent rules that he thought.

One would have thought that after meeting Shek Kin that he would have started to learn that.

[AxelB]

I always think that you have to learn all the basics, (that some people feel so reluctant/impatient to learn) before you free yourself from the mould.

It seems a lot of people want to free themselves from the mould that they haven't even learnt yet, therefore completely missinterpretating what these more experienced MAs are trying to get across. Instead they spend more time putting down other MAs that do not train the way they do.

[hskwarrior]

hey guys,

axelb, i feel the same way bout the basics. because i will admit i have reached a level where the light bulb just eluminated inside of my brain cabinet. and i realized that even at the top of the system a punch is a punch, kick is a kick, and a block is a block regardless of how you do it. so i naturally returned to my basics to re-inforce them.

i don't think that is something you can teach a student (to go back to basics). it is a personal revelation they must experience for themselves. coming from someone else is like in one ear and out the other. it'll happen for them one day though.

thanks bro.

brother#9- i also agree with you as well. i have heard that bruce lee and shek Kin used to spar all the time trying to see who is corret in their beliefs.

anyhow i feel for a concept to work you have to lay down some type of foundation first and then allow the student to grow and eventually his lightbulb will shine too.

until then,

peace.

hskwarrior

[David Jamieson]

hubris is where he went wrong.

It's where a lot of people go wrong.

[SifuAbel]

First, he was a drama queen.

Second, he died too young and became a martyr.

Third, he didn't have time to further expound on his ideas and control its paradigm.

Just like jebus, he's not around to say, "No, thats not what I meant.".

[SevenStar]

i have a question meant with no disrespect to the late bruce lee, but where did he go wrong in getting across his idea of throwing away the traditional techniques and just have no way.

throwing away the UNNECESSARY (not necessarily traditional) techniques isn't a bad idea. He followed the model the judo, boxing and thai boxing had already done. It leads to producing efficient fighters in a shorter time.



From what i understand is that he stopped teaching Jeet Kune Do to his students because he was turning it into a system instead of purely self expression.

theoretically, that was bound to happen anyway. Look at boxing - limited number of techniques, yet hundreds of different ways of expressing them. Tyson fights nothing like lewis, who fights nothing like RJJ, who fights nothing like JC chavez. Self expression is a natural progression in your training.



see, i feel (and this is only my opinion) that where he went wrong was he tried to teach a baby how run a mile in 6 seconds flat. however, the baby hasn't even learned to crawl yet. it has to crawl then walk before sprinting.

when I trained jun fan/jkd, it was nothing like that. We learned basics - basic boxing, thai boxing and WC, mainly. But, we were drilling it actively from the beginning.



what i mean is bruce lee already reached a certain level when he made these revelations about having no way. having the ability not to rely on pre-planned techniques in a system. he himself already travelled that road and learned traditional systems.

he only had like 5 years of formal training... Once again, look at the sport models above. shadowboxing is not preplanned, randori is not preplanned, sparring is not preplanned...heck, pad and bagwork are not preplanned.


but to teach a person who has never learned any type of martial art in their life how to block punch and kick instinctively with out any prior training is impossible. and from that point on everything you show that student becomes systematic.

I think you misunderstand what he was trying to do.

[SevenStar]

i don't think that is something you can teach a student (to go back to basics). it is a personal revelation they must experience for themselves. coming from someone else is like in one ear and out the other. it'll happen for them one day though.



Sure it is... you teach them so you can make them "go back to basics" whenever you feel like it. IME, what happens is teachers don't reinforce the basics. They start with them, then keep progressing, never going back. When this happens, students take the stuff they are currently working, and use it, as that's what they are training (and quite possibly like) the most. Since they aren't adequately reviewing their basics, this is natural.

Now, when the teacher spends lots of time on basics, students will use them more, as they are training them more. If your curriculum is centered around basics, they will use those basics. I COULD teach and focus on jumping knees every class. I COULD focus on spiining back kicks every class. But instead, I focus on footwork, basic knees, the jab, cross and hook, etc. We spend a lot more time on basics than we do on more advanced techniques.

[Yum Cha]

You could say he "Supernovaed".

Hubris, ego, pride, motivation and talent in lethal doses.

He cast off the traditional because it cast him off. Legend is that Yip Man turned his back on him when he came back to continue his training.

He looked for the most direct route and was impatient. He thought he was invincible, and he wasn't.

Nevertheless, he is probably the most significant martial artist to ever live, being that he let the Kung Fu cat our of the bag. He brought very little new to the arts, other than a western audience.

He never lived long enough to learn from his mistakes and show his true talent.

[NeedsPractice]

1- Some arts will inherently get you to a reasonable amount of fighting skill in a shorter period of time period.
2- One of the big aspects of martial arts is supposed to be fighting, yet not everybody really wants to fight.

That being said
1 - As someone posted earlier Bruce Lee was trying to and did make some big leaps however its hard to show that to people with no framework.

2- Look at aikido a man who already knew how to fight tried to create a way of not fighting but even his first students who were already very experienced couldnt duplicate him, much less the third, and fourth generations.

I think even if Bruce Lee had lived another 30 years, he would have grown, improved but in the end created a system that would have been unable to produce students like himself. In addition he would have ended up with a progressive system which is just what he was trying to get away from.

In some cases there is no systematic way to teach the thought process, and learning experience of an individual, whether it be bruce lee, michael jordan, einstein or ueshiba

Side note how effectively can you teach fighting skills to someone who doesnt enjoy fighting?

[fiercest tiger]

I think that NoOne is understanding what he meant as NO WAY!

As for his art NOW still its producing good students and people to train selfdefense and comps.

At least they train harder then most Traditioanl Kung Fu school that just do forms! They also do knife and stick that is more hands on the KUNG FU FORMS!

Anyway i understand what he means by letting go cause to tell you the truth alot of TCMA is B.S and even myself i am realising that kung fu shouldnt be a set way to do things.

FT

P.S 7STAR good post

[mickey]

Greetings Everyone.

I do not think it was Bruce who went wrong; but it was the people who blindly followed his teachings who did go wrong. Alot of it has to do with what I believe to be the holding back of information during his traditional period. Just from the Chester Maydole photos alone, it was pretty obvious that Bruce was a traditional stylist in the aspect that he studied the Chinese martial arts. It showed in his techniques and his traditional dress. I believe that there are more photos from this period that have yet to be shared that would definitely send the message that 1)Bruce was a traditionalist, 2) you do not have to study Jeet Kune Do to arrive at the same, sublimate, level, and 3) the door to that level exists in the traditions of most styles. You must have a way to begin with before you abandon it. It depends on the individual and how well he/she interacts with his discipline. He simply transitioned to another level ( I just heard someone say "yea, he kicked"). It is no promise nor guarantee that his students will be able to do that without understanding the need for a traditional base or even if they had a traditional base to begin with.

mickey

[aaaaaaa]

I have trained in marial arts for 3 years yet I value what I have learnt from Bruce Lee more. He didn't just teach how to be a good martial artist but a good human being. His philosophys and teachings can be applied to almost anything not just martial arts. For example:

Dont fight as a kungfu man, as a karate man ect, fight as a human being and express yourself honestly.

Dont give to charity as a christian, as a muslin ect, give as a human being with your emotions.

Dont compose a dance song, a clasical song ect, press any key you want, how you want and explore yourself to express yourself fully and honestly.

The list is endless.

[Sow Choy]

For the record...

Concerning Shek Kin, I have had the pleasure of visiting him at his apartment in Hong Kong 2 times, and both occassions we couldn't resist to ask about Bruce Lee...

They only sparred once (light Spar)...

Bruce looked up to Shek Kin, because Shek Kin is over 30 years older than Bruce, and because Shek Kin was already a legend in TV and film. Also Shek Kin knew alot of the old famous masters we always hear stories of, he remembers when Ku Yi Jerng killed the horse too....

Shek Kin was around Chin Woo alot and learned a handfull of Northern Styles, Wrestling being a favorite of his...

So Bruce and him loved to discuss fighting alot... Bruce favored speed and to hit 1st and hit hard... While Shek Kin told Bruce against a seasoned fighter stradegy would be most important, because a seasoned fighter will expect speed and power...

Bruce requested to light spar on several occasions and Shek kin declined stating he was old and Bruce would hit him too hard... So Bruce kept asking and asking, so Shek Kin agreed, if it was light, Bruce agreed...

They fought on the set in front of many people, and he said Bruce was hitting hard... So after 3rd of 4th exchange Bruce came in fast and Shek kin popped him in the mouth giving him a bloody lip... Bruce agreed about the stradegy part...

It was a friendly match between 2 friends...

After bruce's death Shek Kin received a court order along with several other martial artists. They were questioning him asking if he used and dim mak or death touch on Bruce in that match... Crazy huh?!?!

Shek Kin has tremendous amount of respect for Bruce, he liked him alot... Always smiles when speaking of him... When we asked if Bruce was really that good, he said not bad... very fast... he said bruce's right side was strong but left was weak, except his spinning hook kick with the left...

Sorry to babble and take this off course...

Just thought I would add this for those who would like to know...

I do and always have had tremendous respect for Bruce Lee, if not for him, my life would not be as great as it has been...

Thanks Bruce,

Joe

[X-Warrior]

hey,

i have a question meant with no disrespect to the late bruce lee, but where did he go wrong in getting across his idea of throwing away the traditional techniques and just have no way.

From what i understand is that he stopped teaching Jeet Kune Do to his students because he was turning it into a system instead of purely self expression.

see, i feel (and this is only my opinion) that where he went wrong was he tried to teach a baby how run a mile in 6 seconds flat. however, the baby hasn't even learned to crawl yet. it has to crawl then walk before sprinting.

what i mean is bruce lee already reached a certain level when he made these revelations about having no way. having the ability not to rely on pre-planned techniques in a system. he himself already travelled that road and learned traditional systems.

but to teach a person who has never learned any type of martial art in their life how to block punch and kick instinctively with out any prior training is impossible. and from that point on everything you show that student becomes systematic.

to wrap this up, i feel that bruce lee crawled, walked, and ran before reaching that level of understanding he had. so how could he expect a beginner to comprehend his teachings without crawling, walking and running first.

he had the right idea, but how to get there is where he went wrong.


i hope no one was offended by this, it is just a discussion.

thanks
hskwarrior

HSK, I think the information you are missing here is that Bruce Lee did have basic techniques, punches, kicks and blocks, he just didn't create a system from these. JKD doesn't consist any forms and allows students to change or add any technique the way he/she thinks works better. 'Discard what useless, keep what is usefull' as he said.

In traditional arts you learn the techniques and forms the way the founder developed them and to advance in that system means to know more and more of these techniques and the higher forms. In JKD, on the contrary, you advance by discovering which techniques work the best for you as an individual and you are able to demonstrate that indeed you can defend yourself using these techniques - knowing all of the techniques are not a requirement to know 'your own art'. If you attended a Judo class before, add your throws to your skills, you will still do JKD. JKD is a concept not a system.

I attended a couple of Dan Inosanto's seminars, and he said he is still changing even the basic techniques of Jeet Kune Do as he thinks fits better in with today's evolving martial arts. That is what Bruce Lee really wanted, change as time passes and other arts evolve, change it to your taste, add to it, discard from it as you think it helps you, you will still do JKD: your own art.

Hope this clears it out somewhat, I was also confused before I looked into JKD deeper.

-X-