Question to Sifu Ross regarding theory on Tekki-kata

[Gringorn]

Hi.

This is my first post on this forum, so please be gentle with me.

I've been reading up on the Chan Tai San-thread. Amazing stories by the way, and probably the best and most entertaining thread I've read on any MA-forum ever. A great read.

On "page" 20 you said something that chaught my interest, however, but was never adressed again. Since this is off-topic in regards to the Chan Tai San-stories, I thought I'd post this here instead.

Page 20:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34317&page=20&pp=15

Quote:

"Chris, since we are discussing two man sets, want to share with them your Tekki Kata theory???"

Please, could you elaborate on this? I've been hoping this would be adressed, but it was never mentioned again.

(By the way, I'm a former shotokan practitioner turned CMA-addict, though no more than a fresh newbie)

[lkfmdc]

in other words........

DECONSTRUCTION IT

:D :D :D

[rogue]

Gringorn

Naihanchi being half of a two man set has been put forth by Patrick McCarthy (http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/patrick.htm). His interpretation is very interesting as it's based upon believable reactions of the missing man. If you can attend one of his seminars do so.

[WanderingMonk]

well, as luck would have it, he will be in New York, on Long Island in a week and a half doing a seminar - serendipity?

or is it .....
FATE

[rogue]

Chris you can try but your best bet is to go to the seminar since he covers alot of history and how he researched his work. I think if you introduce yourself and tell him who your sifu was it might perk up his ears. I don't know him well but I did get to socialize with him a little after the seminars and he was a blast.

[Gringorn]

Thanks for the great replies.
If I wasn't curious before, I am now.

I have done CMA for less than a year (ouch), but already it has put my former shotokan-training in a wholly different perspective.

Unfortunately, sine I live in Norway, I won't have a chance to check out any of Mr. McCarthy's seminars. But thanks for the link, and thanks for the replies. Interesting stuff.

[rogue]

the apps are all joint locking reversals and trapping exchanges
Chris that is almost exactly what hanshi McCarthy showed, his take on it was that your opponent is not as skilled and is resorting to common street techniques to try to counter you. The following from his page makes sense to me.

In particular, he (McCarthy) often questioned the value of teaching learners to respond to reverse punches, back fists and sidekicks when it is clearly not representative of violent encounters. More importantly, if karate was just about punching and kicking, as was pontificated from the highest sources, he speculated as to the need for kata in the first place.


talking about the range at which the techniques operate - close in - and how to get there/what to do once you're at close range; You got that right.

Chris if you want PM me your contact info. I'm going to try and get to one of his seminars this summer and I'll gladly pass it on to him when I get there.

[rogue]

That's great Chris, if you go let us know what you thought of it. Be ready to see many black belts looked surprised at some of what's shown. ;)


and besides, don't you think it's wiser to assume that your opponent is as good or better than you are? There are alot of variables in that statement. :) Better how? If we are in the ring with all things being equal and you are better than me then you win. If I'm walking down the street with my head in the clouds and you smack me in the head with a brick from behind you win even if I'm technically better than you. If I assumed that someone was better than me I'd be beating a hasty retreat the heck out of there. :o The way I see it, it's a rare thing for the better person to lose without outside help.

But Chris, check with McCarthy about this. I'm going by what I think he means and I could be wrong.

[cerebus]

This sounds exactly like the book "Zen Shaolin Karate" by Nathan Johnson. Though some might be turned off by the title, it's actually a very good book. Johnson's background is also in Karate, Southern Mantis, Tai Chi, etc. Check out Johnson's book. It's very worthwhile.

[bonetone]

I read a book recently called "Shotokan's Secret: the Hidden Truth Behind Karate's Fighting Origins" by Bruce Clayton, PH D. In the book he says the naihanchi kata was perhaps brought back from China by Matsumura and altered to fit the Shuri-te bodygaurd fighting neccessities. his explanaion was that the Shuri Castle bodygaurds would have the officials behind them against a wall protecting them from advancing enemy, and slowly side step to an opening in the wall where they could flee. he states that pretty much only Shuri-te stlyes practices naihanchi kata extensively because of the roots of this bodygaurd neccessity. You are creating a protective barrier as you perform one puch kills or knockouts to the front and sometimes to the sides as you move sideways along the wall so the officials you are protecting can get away. Its an ok book, but there is much speculation.

[bonetone]

Well, you really have to know the context in which the Shuri-te masters were working in. Supposedly the Shuri-te bodygaurds were protecting the officials in the meeting hall of the Shuri Castle grounds. They came up with specefic conditions and techniques they would have to use. Shuri-te and its kata are all from elitie bodyguards from the nobles of Okinanaw. its probably hard for you to comprehend all of this in the 21st century but at one time people had to come up with plans of fighting in specific scenarios. Shuri-te is not peasant farmer karate, it is bodyguard fighting. Thy were not armed because of the lawas inplace, their fists were weapons. Take a look at the knuckles of the old karate masters and you **** yourself. These guys did not **** around. they pounded makiwara boards till the dawns early light. Just except it, you will never be as hard as the Shuri-te masters. They would side step your feeble attack and tenderize you for breakfast meat.

[rogue]

Bruce Clayton's book was interesting but it made many leaps without anything to back them up. And everybody knows that Naihanchi was used to fight on a narrow bridge. :rolleyes:

all excellent points - better can mean a lot of things - in general, my thinking is that it's not just assuming that your opponent is not just going to stand there and let you beat him senseless (and obviously McCarthy thinks this way as well) but that he may actually "correctly" counter some of what you do - either via his technical training or that he's a crazy MF and "accidently" do something that you have to deal with; - also, whereas 20 years ago most people had no MA training, now many more have, in one way or another, so in a sense the average "guy on the street" will have more technical know-how than before - but, I still agree that there are many variables, and it may well be that i am the one who is delusional... Naw, we're all on the same page and we all may be crazy. ;)

I agree with you that the martial arts training of the opponent is something that has to be considered and arts are sometimes built around that. Thanks to the BJJ guys alot of us have had to adjust for the infamous BJJ white belt as well as the TKD flicky kicky black belt. Add into that the number the people that just watch boxing, wrestling and UFC and you have a large number of non-MA who have at least seen what to do during a fight and may try some of what they've seen.


. You are creating a protective barrier as you perform one puch kills or knockouts to the front and sometimes to the sides as you move sideways along the wall so the officials you are protecting can get away. Bonetone, I'd think that they'd have used better body mechanics if that was so. Naihanchi dachi isn't the most stable stance to take a head on attack with, and punching across the body is also weak. I agree with Chris in that naihanchi may have been flattened out for some reason. Look at pictures of Choki Motubo using the techniques from the kata. :)

[jimbob]

Chris

I've known Patrick for quite a few years - he's a good friend. From what you say, I think you'll have a great time working out with him. He'd be thrilled too, to have someone from a CMA background in attendance at one of his workshops. He's a fantastic teacher and full of stories. I hope you enjoy your time with him.

[bonetone]

You just aren't educated enough to have a debate wiith. You will still never be a hard karate bodyguard with knuckes thicker than a cacthers mitt. Nor will you understand what it take to get your men to safety. Still there is lots of room for peasant kung fu, there is thousands of styles, I'm sure you'll grab hold of one of them. Take peace in knowing you are are among billions that are not fit for a Shuri-te bodyguard.

[bonetone]

I'm sure Chotoku Kyan were alive he'd whip your as and break your neck for you r big shot talk

[bonetone]

Its ok if you're a pus. Just admit son. And you baffle me i must admit. what are you talking about? I'm sorry If you can;t grasp had stylr karate for your pathetic wu shu world, oh wel just another face in the dust. As for my grammar, sorry I can't be among the supior race of ****heads but I was born in Ukraine and am of the Rom. If you have a probllam, well so do most.

[cerebus]

Yeah, Nathan Johnson's book is really very interesting and well done. It cover's the Naihanchi and Sanchin katas with the view that Naihanchi is originally all chin na. It also gives instruction in the use of push hands for developing instictive reactions in grappling range (reading the opponents intention through his hands/ arms). It's published by Tuttle and is often available in book stores.

[Vash]

Zen Shaolin Karate is one of the things that got me looking at Sanchin as an application-rich form.

[cerebus]

WHAT? No, I can fix that.... :D

[cerebus]

Okay Chris, check your PMs. ;)

[rogue]

Zen Shaolin Karate is one of the things that got me looking at Sanchin as an application-rich form.

Isshinryu sanchin (http://www.isshinryu.com/sanchin5.htm)

This karate style is built on sanchin (http://www.uechi-ryu.com/videos/u_kata.html) Check out the video titled '1991 All Okinawan Karate Championships' sanchin is the third kata shown in the video. Vash the first two kata on the video are seisan which might interest you. The fourth one might be sanseiru.

Check out the one titled SANSEIRU by a Jim Maloney. This one looks like it might have some Chinese influence. That stomping step looks familiar but I can't place it.

[cerebus]

Oh yeah. Uechi Ryu is about as "Southern Chinese" as any Karate style out there. Even Goju Ryu doesn't look as "Gung Fu-ish" as Uechi.

[ReignOfTerror]

Im not shure what magazine I read it but I think its black belt or a article reprinting an older article in blackbelt where one of Oyama's students talks about kyoushin. He says that todays fighters have evolved and the techniques today are superior than Oyama and fighters of his time using kyoukishin.

[rogue]

Sounds like Bluming, but I don't see how it relates to what we're talking about. :confused:


Oh yeah. Uechi Ryu is about as "Southern Chinese" as any Karate style out there. Even Goju Ryu doesn't look as "Gung Fu-ish" as Uechi. cerebus what southern styles does Uechi Ryu and Goju Ryu look like? Except for WC I haven't seen any other Southern styles so I can't compare them.

[cerebus]

5 Ancestor Fist (Ngo Cho Kune) bears a STRONG resemblance to Okinawan Shorei Ryu (including having Saam Chien/ San Chin). There are a few others as well. Personally, I think alot of Uechi Ryu looks like Bak Mei (claw hands & phoenix-eye fists).

[ReignOfTerror]

well it does relate because that guy you guys were calling a troll kept saying how the okinawans would rip our hearts out.

[cerebus]

LOL. But since he (like someone else here, eh ROT?) is a troll, anything he says can be disregarded... ;)

[cerebus]

Mmmmm, ketchup..... :D :D

['MegaPoint]

just to give you some idea though, the "theory" (which is mine, it is my theory - A. Elk...) involves the origin of the forms, not in terms of who or where, but the what and how - in other words, what is the real deal with the forms, the "inner" workings? in terms of fighting (theory and practical application), healing and internal practice / self-cultivation? what's in a name? and what's missing? in order to come up with the answers to these questions, I have drawn on my experience in / knowledge of Shotokan / TKD (Mo Duk Kwan specifically), Okinawan karate, southern Chinese short hand systems, tai chi, Taoist internal practice and TCM; anyway, based on what's already been posted you should be able to figure it out yourself with a little leg work...



Don't you mean Naihanchi? If you only know the diluted Tekki version then you will get very little from its practice.

If you guys need any info on Okinawan kata just ask the Okinawan yudansha, like me. Conjecture means diddly.

Of course there is a strong connection between the Ryukyu Islands and China. They were a tributary of China for centuries, even during the Satsuma occupation. Thirty-six Chinese families set up a village in Kume prefecture on Okinawa for cultural and economic exchange.

My styles founder (and arguably the founder of most modern karate styles) was Matsumura Sokon (Bu Be Tatsu or Wu Cheng Cheng-Da) the chief palace guard for three Okinawan kings. He was sent to the location of the original Fukien Shaolin Temple by King Sho Tai and learned for many years, returning with added MAs knowledge. Hohan Soken said that he may have studied for over 2 decades. He returned to Fuzhou some years after his initial trip to further his studies with Iwah Sifu and Wai shin Zan Sifu. From this comes the MMA known as Shuri Te (later Matsumura Seito Shorin), an amalgam of Shaolin Chuan'Fa, Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu (Satsuma Clan's fighting system), and Okinawan Ti.

The name of our highest level kata is "Hakutsuru" which means "White Crane".

I could give you all the proof you need but it's a holiday I have to go celebrate.

[Nick Forrer]

I think this guy (Steve Morris) has some interesting things to say about the connection between chinese kung fu and okinawan karate. See what you think:

Biography - scroll down (http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk/biography.htm)

Some quotes about sanchin

Question
'I'd like to know if you think that kata serve any useful purpose at all when it comes to preparing for a streetfight type of situation.Do you think that they can be used as "libraries" of technique,as some people suggest. Do they really contain grappling methods as is now being advocated in some quarters, or is this just a means of attracting interest back to what seems to be a languishing area of martial arts?Please note that I'm not asking these questions as a)a karate practtioner or b)an advocate of kata.I'm neither.I'd just like to know what your thoughts are.Particulrly as you are regarded as an authority on Sanchin.

Answer
Let's put it this way. On the basis of the most sophisticated interpretations, as in Indonesian silat, katas contain entry, breakdown, takedown applications and optional finishes.But, from my experience, nobody started really seriously working at grappling applications until NHB came along. Also, because there's only so many movements the body can make, you can more or less interpret a move to mean anything you want. So who knows: maybe they do contain grappling, maybe they don't. But the way people are practicing the kata, they're not resembling anything real. Unlike shadowboxing, the moves are ambiguous. There's nothing ambiguous about a left hook: it's obvious to the viewer what the guy's practicing and he doesn't need to have the secrets revealed to him in a special bunkai class.

But I've dealt with this question in my bio, where I talk about being unable to separate the combative content from all the other stuff that ends up getting crammed into the form.

With Sanchin, if I was to say that it had training benefits, then it could be easily interpreted as an endorsement to practice in Sanchin. But the truth is, with regards to my authority on Sanchin, that authority was all information I put INTO the form--not information I got out. And people tend to think that it was somewhere in this esoteric boxing form that the information has been gained, and it wasn't. It was just that I saw the similarity between the sanchin posture and boxing/wrestling/Muay Thai and applied the principles I knew of reflex and behavioral patterns to the Sanchin so as to enhance the neuromusculoskeletal structure. I only did that as a bait to hook martial artists into my method. That was the whole purpose of the Toudi Kempo stuff; not to endorse the forms, but to try to get their practitioners under my influence where I could teach them and change their direction. I only ever used the forms as a device, and when that didn't have the desired effect, I dropped the sanchin but I didn't lose anything by doing so because all it was was a shape to hold my ideas. That's why you'll see me wearing a gi in some of the films. It was just an attempt to connect with the traditionalists.'

And another

'One of the technical points that came up within the responses was the claim that there is no Valsalva maneuovre in the practice of Sanchin. Being more than familiar with the Sanchin/Samchien form as practiced by Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu and several Fujian systems, and having been considered in the past to be amongst the leading authorities on the rationale of its method, everyone I've ever seen practice Sanchin, whether of the Goju ryu, Uechi ryu or the Fujian systems, all to a varying degree make an expiratory effort by an extended sound against constricted vocal cords, or with a cough against a closed glottis. Or equally to a lesser or greater degree, go through a form of dynamic tension at various technical points within the Three-Battle Three Upright or Chien tension form.
Cardiac output is dependent upon the amount of blood returned to the right heart, and several mechanisms assist in this return. Namely, the muscle pump, by which through rhythmatic contractions veins are compressed and blood is forced towards the heart—sustained muscular contraction, however, hinders the return of venous blood; venoconstriction by which blood is returned to the heart by reflex venoconstriction through the intiation and control of the central nervous system; and the respiratory pump, by which the veins of the thorax and abdomen are emptied during inspiration and refilled during expiration. In that during diaphragmic breathing, intrathoracic pressure becomes subatmospheric, in that decreasing intrathoracic pressure during inspiration allows blood in thoracic veins to aspirate towards the heart, and through increased abdominal pressure through diaphragmic breathing during inspiration, veins in the abdominal cavity are emptied. The reverse taking place upon expiration; i.e., the veins of the thoracic and abdominal cavities again fill with venous blood.
During valsalva, as air cannot escape, or is restricted, intrathoracic pressure can rise to a point where systolic and diastolic pressure can rise beyond normal levels anticipated in exercises that do not advocate the holding or restraining of the breath. It is possible for intrathoracic pressure to rise to such a level that causes the vena cava returning blood to the heart to collapse—hardly, as I have already pointed out in other articles, the kind of exercise to be engaging in if you are overweight.
Many of you might very well doubt the validity of whether there is a valsalva maneuovre in the Sanchin form, but whether you perceive that you are practicing it in the form or not rather depends on your definition of valsalva. It never hurts to be cautious, particularly if you are obese or resemble like so many within the world today, swinus erectus, that new species of piglike man, or upright pig. It would also be wise rather than relying on what your master, teacher, instructor, physician or neurologist has advised, to re-evaluate their definition and yours of valsalva by checking out some of the following references, written by those far more knowledgeable in their field than I. '

[rogue]

Hiya Mega howz it going? Fill us in on what you know. I f I had known you were lurking then I would have dragged you in. :)