Choy Lay Fat: Buk Sing & Hung Sing

[5thBrother]

what are some Technical and Theoretical Differences bewteen Buk SIng & Hung Sing?

this is a Technical & Theory Question NOT a political Question.....

Buk SIng belief this and Hung Sing beleif that (technique/theory/principle) so be it ...


i am not CLF for da records...

just interested in the "different" (not necessarily (even if u belief so ;P) better)

basicaly what makes buk sing different to hung sing etc...

im interetsing in kung fu and not politics im also interested in how is buk sing different to hung sing... for if not then there would jsut be ONE "CLF"

any other "sects" of CLF also... to see the different "paths" to the top of the mountain etc...

i only seen buk sing for da records

thanks

[Ben Gash]

Bak Sing places more of an emphasis on forward energy, constantly driving into the opponent. To facilitate this, it uses TONS of chop chuis and makes great use of the "running horse stance" kind of a cross between a bow step and a kneeling step which they use to spring forward off the back foot. The swinging techniques are also very extended.

[Sow Choy]

Honestly...

There is not much difference in style, only difference is teacher...

The above reply is also how we fight and most other families in CLF, the only difference is in flavor between schools, and in how each school trains its fighters...

Some say its the amount of forms and that Buk Sing has some northern Shaolin sets due to Ku Yi Jerng and Tam Sam's friendship...

After meeting several schools, sifus and students on all ends... There is no difference other than the patterns of the forms and the amount... Buk Sing & Hung Sing both have mainly the same techniques, but even within the same family there are slight differences, ex: the combos whena attacking striking, etc...

Joe

[hskwarrior]

I would have to say I agree with both Joe and Ben Gash on this one as well.

From my own experience is that somewhere in the Buk Sing line is a split between the old and the new. Tam Sam and his older group of students resemble more the Hung Sing Kwoon and their mentalities. But (I'm not sure who they were) when the group of students that Tam Sam sent over to KU Yu Jerng that was when "of course" the northern flavor kicked in.

In either Guangzhou or Hong Kong there is a Buk Sing Sifu named Carey Wong, and when he performed Kou Da Kuen he closely resembled my sigung Jew Leong in movements and of course I am from Hung Sing, but after watching the Lacey Family (who is the only real Buk Sing I've seen so far) Shane Lacey performed Ping Kuen and that totally had Northern flavor all over it.

Not saying the chan family aren't fighters, but it is typically known that the Hung Sing Branch breeds fighters, and i say this because of interacting with other Hung sing Kwoons from around the world, and even in Fut San, they all "like" to fight, and are quick to let you know that. And in most cases they could care less about winning trophies in tournaments but focus on the realness and effectivesness in real life combat situations. As i keep saying on different posts, after my student got jumped, forms are less important for now while my students would prefer to take out 8 guys.

Bringing this to an end, basically there is no real difference between Hung Sing and Buk Sing except for their northern flavor. Self defense wise, i feel that we are very similar. although as Joe said, its the flavor between schools. for example there are clf teachers out there who lean more towards the philosophical side of CLF , knows the practical usage of the techniques, but has never been in a fight in his life. on the other side you have my sifu for example who was a chinatown thug in his youth and actually used his CLF on the streets. he is able to bring that personal experience into his school and share his knowledge on what would actually work and how to make what doesn't- work!

take it easy,

frank

[Infrazael]

You know, not all Sao Choys and Poon Kius are "fully extended" in combat or sparring. In fact, my Sifu has told me to be more compact if the situation demands it. So I think in saying that Buk Sing is "wider" is possibly a slight misconception. They might "train" that way in forms and drills, but I bet in a real fight (street, full-contact, etc), a Buk Sing and Hung Sing player will fight virtually the same, with differences perhaps on what TYPE of technique they prefer (ie, Choy Choy vs. Sao Choys).

[Sow Choy]

Right on...

In CLF as I know it... The long range techniques are practiced with theory of you will have long and short range... By practicing with full-extension you will be able to strike long or short. When fighting you adapt. In form you practice so you understand the movements beginning-execution-recovery wheter short or long.

Just as if you practice kicking high you increase not only your flexibility but your range in which you can kick. Yes most of us would never kick bove waist level in a fight, but if you have that range you do have that option, and if you havent been kicked up high, you have not met someone in sparring with good leg skill yet... ;)

So long range training gives you the option, this is our theory, not fact but our theory, wing chun may disagree with us. But we feel training with limitations in range will limit our adabtabilty...

Joe

[yutyeesam]

Also, non CLF folks tend to misunderstand our concept of "long range". They tend to think of it as us swinging wildly from gapped distances...which is not how it is. I tend to think of our techniques as actually in-close techniques with a lot of follow through for maximum damage. Even while striking during evasion, we have to be pretty close to be effective.

[Fu-Pow]

Confucious say:

Long to short. Round to straight.

You can't go the other way.

This is the proper way to practice...... :D

[hskwarrior]

Yutyeesam,

Hey i will respond to your email deeper sometime today.

Now, isnt that what we want them to think, that we swing wildly, gapped stances, long swinging techniques and great big open doors? that is what they prepare for when having to come against a clf guy. they don't need to know the inner workings of our system. there still has to be an air of secrecy, shouldn't it? so, let em' think that way, and we'll always have the upperhand.

If anyone has had a real street fight you know that to hit someone hard you have to be fairly close to have an effective strike. I believe that there is not "just" and short, middle, and long range, but the range is anywhere from long to short depending on each individual situation. I imagine, that if you were in a packed place such as a nightclub you would have to use more close range stuff, but out in the parking lot would be another story.

I love it when people see you execute a few techniques and they get all Kockie (they wouldn't let me spell the word hahah.), and something like "you're wide open all over the place." The way GM D. Salvatera taught me was to always know how to close a door in case someone wants to enter it."

so, now i ask, if you were in a left foot forward "T" stance as we call it, (most say bow and arrow) and used a long range Cup Choy with your right hand, and your opponent sees the open door and tries to walk inside, how would you close that door? It will be interesting to hear how other people handle this situation.


frank

[yutyeesam]

hey frank,
very cool, i look forward to your e-mail.

i like your sifu's analogy of the open and closed door.

regarding the situation you described, i guess it would depend on if you executed kup choy in response to an attack initiated by them, vs. you initiating it (most probably with a set up from a linear technique first). in general tho, your left hand is available to guard the unprotected gates.

and positioning'd be a factor too, as in, what angle they are to you. but yeah, in general, my left hand'd be ready to block the upper/mid/lower gates with a centerline guard.

[hskwarrior]

isn't that a cool thing about CLF, although we're striking with one hand, we are still ready to protect with the other.

it is important for any martial artist to understand when he throws a punch he opens a door, more importantly how to close that door. some people are too busy with offensive techniques they often neglect these areas.


****, this makes me want to make a new thread....hmmmm.........


frank

[Eddie]

Elo guys,
This topic about the long vs short has been over done, and we have spoken about this before on this forum.

Hskwarrior wrote:
>If anyone has had a real street fight you know that to hit someone hard you have >to be fairly close to have an effective strike. I believe that there is not "just" and >short, middle, and long range, but the range is anywhere from long to short >depending on each individual situation. I imagine, that if you were in a packed >place such as a nightclub you would have to use more close range stuff, but out in >the parking lot would be another story.

Well, in a real street fight the aim is not to hit hard as so many people think. In a street fight its much better to hit with the right blend of speed, accuracy and focus, just so that you have enough time to get away to a safe distance to do whatever you should do after that. If you look at the structure of the various long arm strikes in CLF, its not intended for hard punches, as much as it is intended to serve as trapping movements (as one example). I mean, I would defiantly not want to do a cup choy as hard as I can, sure my fists nor my arm would be able to take such a blow, regardless of how much conditioning you are doing. The famous reference of the balls at the end of the rope is pretty much the key here. Relaxed power.

All long arm techniques (in CLF) are also very valuable in the shorter range. Fu Pow’s post comes in really handy here, wise man that Confucius was. Ranges are important, but it only becomes important in the fighting. If you train long range, its easier to go to a shorter range, but its not easy to do the opposite. Every single CLF move works well in all the ranges. You can test it, simply by doing this little exercise. Disregard stances, or rather don’t worry to much about the height. Go into a boxing type stance, and go through your different CLF strikes in the same way a boxer would do in shadow boxing. Obviously keeping your hands as close to your face as possible. You should feel how easy it is to go through the ranges. So imagine what you get when you add the correct stances and hip movements.

Hskwarrior wrote
>I love it when people see you execute a few techniques and they get all Kockie (they wouldn't let me spell the word hahah.), and something like "you're wide open all over the place." The way GM D. Salvatera taught me was to always know how to close a door in case someone wants to enter it."<

Yes, people tend to look at long arm styles and thing you are opening up. As much as we open up, we also close close and cover up, but as you said, we shouldn’t tell them about it. Master Dino understand fighting. I also make it a habit not to stand too close to any door, just incase someone wants to open it. Same thing with fighting. Your strategy should change, and I see exactly what Master Dino was talking about.

I have been fortunate enough to start learning the basics of Xiaobeiquan, a northern style which has very similar hand techniques as CLF, except with very loose northern foot work. I have also been learning Taijimeihua mantis(which incidently is also a longish arm style) . Xiaobei teaches you how to use your long arm techniques to get in close and to trap your opponent so that you can successfully execute moves like eg bui jong. Its amazing how your views on some techniques change (for the better) when you look at your style from a different angle.

I have used CLF in both streetfights (if you can call it that - I work as a bouncer at a Dark electro/gothic nightclub) as well as in San Da and it works well in all these ranges. I prefer long range and I try to avoid a range Im not to good at, but in the event I end up in a close range, I know my little CLF knowledge should get me out of trouble, even if it is just to get out and run away.

The more I learn about CMA in general, and the way they all approach fighting, the more I learn about my CLF. Today for eg, I learned some techniques in Chen Taiji which I know I can apply to my CLF without diluting the style. If we stick to the concepts and strategies, we should be fine.

My only concern about CLF is that CLF fighters tend to have very solid upper bodies. I always used to think that was the only way, until I realised how effective the loose and flexible ‘mantis body’ is. When I fight, I now try to combine the looseness and flexibility of mantis upper body with the solidness of my CLF. CLF still remains my favourite, but it makes sense to see my own weaknesses. But then again, maybe my approach was wrong right from the start.

[nospam]

There are always levels of learning that fit one's level of understanding. So your CLF may be hard now, but most likely due to your level and extent of your training/education. Our beginners are often hard but as they progress things soften up. One must learn to control technique and apply it effectively...instruction to this end occurs in phases or stages/levels (belts/ranks).

Some kwoons teach fast, others will teach slow. I've often said my lineage of Bak Hsing CLF looks more like karate until the intermediate levels. It is a hard style in the beginning..that is the way we teach it. Of course there is soft and yielding mixed but the beginner more easily grasps the concretes of hard vs soft in terms of understanding and application.

This is how I would address your concern...and interestingly enuf you went to taiji to 'mix' your CLF. Given time...your CLF should hold all that is required.

nospam.
:cool:

[Eddie]

nospam,
im afraid you must have misread my post. Im not mixing my clf, and dont believe that it should be mixed. I belive that CLF has all it needs and all it should have. the taiji just gave me that extra balance/ understandign of some concepts. Scary how similar some ideas are.

:cool:

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

In response to the technical differences of Buck Sing and Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut there are many. After reading information posted here by people who are NOT practitioners of Buck Sing Choy Lay Fut I felt that it was my responsibility to finally post this reply.

As I dont want to be to be involved in the political side of things I want to Immediatelly clarify and stress that BSCLF history stems fom Great Grandmaster Jeung Yim - founder of the Hung Sing Gwoon.

The teachings of BSCLF as passed down from Grandmaster Tarm Sarm stress the use of the elusive and powerful Charp Choi in various deadly combinations- One of the more famous being the Lee Warn Charp Choi.

Furthermore BSCLF stresses extension from the waist and hips which in turn generates devasting whipping power at the end of our punches. GM Tarm Sarms favourite saying was " Extra Inch Extra Power!" . Our footwork is fast and elusive due to its Norther Shaolin influence.

When performing our forms or techniques it is extremely obvious to the naked eye that BSCLF practitioners extend their punches through the use of waist and hips rather than remain in a central position.

BSCLF also has the famous Seven Deadly Snake techniques which are exclusive to BSCLF. BSCLF is purely combat orientated. There are only 3 core hand forms. The practitioners of this style specialise in fighting theory and application.

Through GM Tarm Sarms constant sparring matches he created and developed many new techniques and variations of techniques he learned from his teacher Grandmaster Lui Charn.

These are only but a few of the main differences between BSCLF and HSCLF, even though we are from the same lineage and family.

[hskwarrior]

thanks Buck Sing Kwoon,

Where is your school Located? i know there is a new one that opened in NY.

but what you have just stated has already been discussed over and over again, and pretty much out of the 3 clf families a certain group of Buk Sing has more of a northern flavor while other buk sing branches i have seen look a lot more like fut san hung sing clf.

Now when "I" say this i speak the truth i have been around long enough to notice certain differences. I think all branches have their own "7 deadly snakes" per say, but some of the differences may lay behind the approaches. as in our school, we have the rolling panther punches which is pretty **** effective.

still one of the major differences is your northern flavor. since u guys are from Jeong Yims lineage we have the same Hoi Jong but your branches has a execute it sligthly different.

however, there are many differences between the branches and that is the beauty of the choy lee fut system. if anyone was interested in learing all 3 branches they would have a full and complete background in the Choy lee fut system.


frank

[pablitop]

Hi, my name is Pablo, I´m from Argentina
I practise GM Chan Kowk Wai branch of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut.
Our branch is little known compared to LKH o DFW, or the Bak Sing branch.
The only set we practise outside the hung sing branch is SAP SHI KAU DA, that is from BAK SING

our style compared to LKH or DFW is a little harder than LKH or DFW , with lower stances in the sets, with more paused movements between each technique, but without loosing speed.

Our style was learnt by GM Chan from Yan You Chin, a great chinese master & doctor who only had 3 students. Yan You Chin learnt from his father, Yan Yin So, who learnt it from Gan Yu Ten, who was a student of Cheun Hung Sing and Chan Ng´au Sin


i don´t know if i can make myself clear since i haven´t used my inglish since i was 18 (i´m 22 now)

we have 12 sets in our syllabus:
1. Pa Won Kuin
2. Sap Tchi Kuin
3. Ping Kuin
4. Sap Tchi Kau Da Kuin (bak sing branch)
5. Moi Fa Kuin
6. Chi Lon Sap Tchi Kau Da Kuin
7. Fu Kuin
8. Tan Chi Long Yen Kuin
9. Pen Cha Kuin
10. Choy Kan Kon Kuin
11. Choy Lee Fut Toi Cha Kuin
12. Fat Chiu

for what i have seen in videos, i really like LKH style of Choy lee fut
I would like to share info, vids and pics with other CLF ppl.

c ya
pablo

[Sow Choy]

Grandmaster Chan Kwok Wai,

He is good friends with us (LKH school), I have visited him the last 3 years in a row in Brazil, a very very nice man. He had a student demo a Hung Sing form for us, was very nice... He also talked of the old CLF styles and techniques, very cool and likes to share his knowledge... His son is a great guy too...

Only one thing, they only speak Cantonese and Portugese... So the whole time I was speaking to them in Cantonese... He is full of lots of history...

Joe