Addressing Concerns of the Shanghai Gro

[mantis108]

Hi All,

I would like to ask Bei Tanglang to spare some room for this thread.

I received an aimable email from one of the Shanghai group members. It points out certain concerns about the KFM mantis forum and the MQ project that I think it would help if we address those at this stage. I will spearhead this but please feel free to chime in.

First I would like to address the thought about my disrespecting Jochen Wolfgramm.

Here's the excerpt of the email reply from me to the Shanghai member:


Jochen is a friend. He went to meet up with another friend of mine who has shared some though provoking material with him. He was honest and forth coming about the whole thing. Please check the MQ forum for that. I think he is very brave in doing so. Personally, there is nothing wrong for a teacher to learn and upgrade. I understand it might not be your idea of perfect teacher or "master" but teacher is human being first and foremost. As such we own ourselves to learn and improve every breathing moment. Believe it or not many teachers including GM changed their teaching through out their career. Changes don't take away their credibilities. Ignorance does. I respect him as a teacher who is after the higher truth for himself and those who follow. He has and continued to inspire others in being courageously embracing the true and higher standard.

note: It should read GM Chiu instead of GM.

More to follow.

Mantis108

[mantis108]

I am not trying to be the world police and keep peace. I am merely reflecting what concerns the Shanghai group has. As far as I gather from the email, there are various areas that the Shanghai group is concerned:

1) Their voice has not been heard. It is being drown by those who leans towards the perspectives presented by the associates of the Mantis Quarterly.

2) Mr. Pel and other non Mantis Quarterly associates has not been given due respect. Their contributions did not receive the proper reviews, exposures and recognitions.

3) Bias and double standard towards the Shanghai group is strong. Again this has to do with MQ associates. It should be of note that certain member(s) on the KFM are indentified as independent meaning not leaning towards the MQ or otherwise.

4) Too much is being asked of the Shanghai group. Their opinions are ofen challenged and proofs are demanded for validation even if they felt enough information has been presented.

5) They don't oppose to most of the quality of material or info presented on the KFM per se. They do wish to see an objective and boarder base contributions. Quality and non bais are the key.

6) They are disappointed that they are met with undesirable antics when they don't comply with others' wishes.

These are the concerns in a nutshell. I am all for open dialogue to help solve differences and to bring the community closer. I believe these concerns are valid points that best addressed by all interested parties. Please address them in a civil and amiable manner.

Sincerely,

Mantis108

[Three Harmonies]

1) Their voice has not been heard. It is being drown by those who leans towards the perspectives presented by the associates of the Mantis Quarterly.

Easy bias to point at, but okay I will bite. KFO has nothing to do with MQ, and many of the posters here do not play on MQ. The Shanghai group has ample room to play as does anyone on this forum. To hide behind an accusation that MQ posters are somehow sabotaging, is once again stretching it IMO.

2) Mr. Pel and other non Mantis Quarterly associates has not been given due respect. Their contributions did not receive the proper reviews, exposures and recognitions.

What contributions? I was the first to compliment the group on some of their latest articles on Mantis history, lineage, as well as the infamous 36 throws. I went as far as to inquire about these throws, and politely ask for more depth and explaining regarding this great subject, yet no one from the Shanghai Group responded worth a ****!
Outside of mentioned articles, they have not written anything. Articles insulting and in essence "picking fights" with other Mantis players throughout the world, does not count as a contribution IMO! If that is their sole contribution, then they will not get "due respect!"


3) Bias and double standard towards the Shanghai group is strong. Again this has to do with MQ associates. It should be of note that certain member(s) on the KFM are indentified as independent meaning not leaning towards the MQ or otherwise.

What double standards?


4) Too much is being asked of the Shanghai group. Their opinions are ofen challenged and proofs are demanded for validation even if they felt enough information has been presented.

Get over it. When you talk ****, people are going to eventually ask to see your ****. They are no different (speaking of double standards) as they ask for "proof" left and right! All anyone has asked is a simple video demonstrating some of their Mantis Boxing skills they are always bragging about. To the best of my knowledge this video has never been provided.
Everyone wants proof opn the web today. Easy for anyone to be a keyboard tough guy.

5) They don't oppose to most of the quality of material or info presented on the KFM per se. They do wish to see an objective and boarder base contributions. Quality and non bais are the key.

Again what bias? If they contribute something fruitful great, no one would have a problem with that.

6) They are disappointed that they are met with undesirable antics when they don't comply with others' wishes.

Que?? :confused:

These are the concerns in a nutshell. I am all for open dialogue to help solve differences and to bring the community closer. I believe these concerns are valid points that best addressed by all interested parties. Please address them in a civil and amiable manner.

Sincerely,

Mantis108[/QUOTE]


All in all this smacks of conspiracy theory. Give me a break, like the posters at MQ have nothing better to do than plot and scheme against Pel's group!!?? They wish they were that important. No one is scheming. Steve Cottrell runs a tight ship, and does not allow just anyone to come and join. THat is the way everyone likes it. No one talks smack about Pels group on their. We are not bashing him privately. And if I may speak for everyone.....
Pel, please, seriously PLEASE, start contributing something worthwhile, something positive for the community and I promise you will see a change in attitude. You cannot expect people to change their attitude for the benefit of you after as much damage you have done. The articles you guys put out recently were great. Why did no one want to elaborate on the 36 throws?? I do not understand how you can have this attitude when you clearly do not go out of your way to help the rest of us understand what you are trying to convey!

My 2 cents,
Jake Burroughs :cool:

[Oso]

All anyone has asked is a simple video demonstrating some of their Mantis Boxing skills they are always bragging about. To the best of my knowledge this video has never been provided. Everyone wants proof opn the web today.

It's a maxim, at least here at KFM, that the proof is in the video. I don't believe in any sort of 'conspiracy' here or at MQ. All we would like to see is how they do their style.

Everyone here, and at MQ, who has had the opportunity due to convenience of location or funds, travelled to meet and train with others here with great success...not to mention fun and beer drinking, but I digress.

I think the only thing that is being asked is that they participate with the same attitude that is displayed here, on MQ and when the rest of us get together.

[shirkers1]

I wasn't going to touch this one because my word doesn't mean much.. But oso made a great point... The majority of the guys/gals here have made an effort to meet up with others and share. Or give input in some way.

The only thing that group has done so far is try to put down every single positive thing that has been accomplished. Try to put a spin on it like it's a negative thing that we as a group are trying to do.. Then play the woe is me... I think that's just silly and I don't care who what and why any more. If they are so worried about being part of the larger group of practitioners then suck it up and join.. No one has banned them from the school yard, all they have to do is participate and give up the attitudes. If they have something to offer then pretty much every one here after time will take it for what it's worth.

I'm sorry mantis 108 that you are being sucked into their games.

Hope you don't get thrown under the bus by them after you go and defend them.

[mantid1]

I have to agree with the Shanghai group on one thing. There are cliques here on the kfo and mq.

I do think the Shanghai group could be more diplomatic in their posts.

If you look at their lineage it is not much different than many others here on the forums, so I dont see much reason to have to see a vid of them. I think their negative comments come from "old family problems" not really about the Kung Fu.

Most of the people on the forums are part timers. I think they would be better off training on their little precious time than worrying about this kind of stuff. I know years ago when i worked a "real" job I didnt have time to check out the forums, to busy training. If we focus more on doing the kung fu and less on forums, reading books, and drinking beer the quality of the kung will improve.

In the end everyone is trying to set up their own little dynasty whether they are from Shanghai, Texas, New Mexico, California, Colorado or even Delaware.

[shirkers1]

I can be from the same teacher and have a different flavor than someone else in that class, so that theory is out the door...

Bottom line any one can be an internet master and know everything... Eventually you have to show up and show your stuff. When someone questions the "word" of that group, whether in a good way or bad way, articles bad mouthing everything and everyone in sight pop up. No need to re hash, we all know what has happened. I don't know if this is an attempt at trying to be part of the group or what, but the best way is to walk through the front door not trying to sneak in the back. Yes there are cliques around here, why is that? Because those people have agreed to get along and share. It's that simple, if you don't want to be part of the group then do what the shanghai group has done..... don't share, put down the people in these groups and you have a pretty good chance at not being part of the "cool" crowd. (by the way that was sarcasm)...

The groups on here are trying to get together for a bigger, better cause. Some people choose to defend others because they have actually been in contact with these people and know the details rather than sitting outside and looking in giving negative input.

[-N-]

Mantid1, sounds about right.

N.

[shirkers1]

mantid1 and -N-, clearly you two are a clique and that is just un fair. (wipes tears away from eyes)... I'm telling my mom.

[mantid1]

I am not saying cliques are a bad thing. I just choose not to join them. I have found that in most cliques there is someone trying to take control. I keep to myself. I am not easily controled or told what to do or think.

Nope, not in a clique. I feel that N and myself do feel the same way about training. If you have a quality teacher, just train hard at what they have taught you. Even if they are not the "top Quality" a little hard work never hurt anyone.

I was just giving mr 108 some input, I did not think it would turn into an attack on myself.

As for the Shanghai group, my statement still stands.

Sorry, but I have to go finish the rest of my workout before I go teach and then work ling sets.

[shirkers1]

Mantid1 I wasn't attacking you at all... It was sarcasm, and showing how some things can be seen wrong.. Where the shanghi group sees cliques over here trying to thwart their existance or something... (they need to look in the mirror on that one) When in fact it's the opposite, the groups here are trying to help the style grow. Not rot away in a basement somewhere. It shouldn't be this political, it is about the training and that is what a lot of people are doing. Getting together, to train and share. That is the cliques you speak of, that clique is growing and soon hopefully it will be a unified group of mantis practitioners sharing for the survival of a great MA. I really don't see anyone trying to take control of anything or asking any one to join a federation of mantis practitioners or anything... :rolleyes:

[Oso]

...or asking any one to join a federation of mantis practitioners...


******, how am I supposed to be Galactic Overlord if we don't have a Federation :mad:

[mantis108]

Thanks guys. Lot of input already! :)

Well, Let's see Star Fleet Command and the Enterprise ... Ummmm, I would rather have the enterprise better yet the USS Defiance. Little ship that could! lol....

I believe there is a direct proportion between sensitivity and security. In a way, the MQ or clique (so to speak) might have risen so quickly that some people have an uneasy feeling about it. What is that the MQ really represents? Why is it gathering mommentum ever so strongly? What impact will it have on the "established" order? Is it going to be the "Mircosoft" of the Mantis community in the future? Is it going to have monoploy pretaining to mantis material?

These are tough questions to be answered. I think those who see the true potential of the MQ will eventually come around. But for now a lot more public relation work has to be done in order to ease the mind of those who might feel their styles' integrity and identity under tremendous impact. IMHO Mantis Quarterly as it stands now is the coming of age of Tanglangquan communtiy at least in North America. Will it be a global representive is remained to be seen. But certianly a bright yonder star to gaze upon at this juncture.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantid1]

I feel it is cliquish for one reason. When I post a question on basic mantis theory no one would post a reply. I was told that that is common advanced level knowledge every instructor should know but it is a touchy subject and people probably will not reply.

After Mr. 108 gracioulsy replied to my post others decided it was ok to have dialog with him on the subject.

(No shirkers I am not crying, just giving feed back to 108. I dont care enough to cry)

I do not offer much info because I know most are not interested in my particular thoughts or training methods. Many on this forum know who I am if they want to know they would just call and ask.

The shanhai people may have found themselves in the same situation and when you add the family problems in it becomes a problem for all.


The mq may very well become a great organization for spreading PM in North America but it will come tumbling down when money comes into play.

Oso make your move now before $$ becomes a problem and maybe you can line your pockets before it is all over :)

I have seen it happen may times

[-N-]

mantid1 and -N-, clearly you two are a clique and that is just un fair. (wipes tears away from eyes)... I'm telling my mom.
:)

You don't know the secret password? :)

N.

[shirkers1]

-N-
I'll be sure to address this at the next MQ North American federation of mantis boxers meeting. :D We must crush all those who refuse to join and pay their yearly fees... :D

mantid1

See this is what I believe this new movement is trying to get away from.. What you describe mantid1 is how things are now. That is why people are getting together to share like this because they are sick of the political molarchy involved with these clans. Could it possibly get out of control? Sure anything is possible.. but does that mean that we shouldn't try? Worst case is it returns to the way it was.

But this is all my opinion and I see your point as well, just throwing it out there for those to pick apart.

[BeiTangLang]

I feel it is cliquish for one reason. When I post a question on basic mantis theory no one would post a reply. I was told that that is common advanced level knowledge every instructor should know but it is a touchy subject and people probably will not reply.

I feel it is cliquish too. What right do they have to start a board where mantis is the subject without having people trash talk at each other! :)



The mq may very well become a great organization for spreading PM in North America but it will come tumbling down when money comes into play.


That very well may be,...but money for whom?
The only money taken in by MQ that I know of are the subsciption fee's. The articles are donated.
Steve cottrells as well as others that work with him on the project voluntee their time.

I have no problems with _any_ group or "Clique" here as long as they are courtious & stick with discussions pertinant to the mantis community. (And don't advertise...LOL!) Basicly, the rules of the forum.
I've had dissagreements. Ive been wrong & I've been right. Such is human nature.

There is so much to talk about in the mantis system without saying "So and so s#cks", "X is not teaching correctly", "Y just wants your money", "Whatever else.."

Leave the names at home. Talk mantis here.

As far as the Shanghai group goes; I have no personal problems with them. The main grief they see IMHO, is the "You reap what you sow" syndrome. No one can help them with that but themselves.

Thanks for putting up with my rant,
~BTL

[-N-]

how am I supposed to be Galactic Overlord if we don't have a Federation :mad:
Oso, just start your own! Kung fu people have been doing it since the ancient times. See, this is how it works....

3 kf guys are hanging out drinking beer. 2 of the guys decide that the 3rd one's chi smells funny, so they form a Federation and tell everybody that they have the best chi, and that the other guy's chi is not worthy.

So the 3rd guy finds 2 more guys and tells them, "There's this new Federation, and they're getting all the attention. Their chi is really hot right now, and they have a lot of it. We need to form an Alliance. If you join me, I'll show you how to make your chi smell like fish, and since there will be 3 of us and only 2 of them we will be more powerful!"

The Federation reminds everybody that stinky chi is not good.

The Alliance says that their chi is more developed and ripe because it was secret knowledge received at the teacher's death bed.

The Federation then says, "Well we have stinky chi too, but your's is not the real stinky chi. It is only stinky cheese. Your teacher mispelled it, and no one realized it all this time."

The Alliance counters with, "Oh yeah? You know everything... If Jackie Chan and Jet Li had a fight, who would win????"

See how easy?

:)

N.

[Oso]

Nope, give me a Gunstar any day...one Gunstar stopped the entire Kodan Armada !!!


fellas, any time more then two people agree on the same thing there are going to be twenty people complaining about them agreeing.

the reason this purported "MQ Federation" looks like it's growing so quickly is because of two things:

1 - It's really been unofficially around for something like a decade...I ain't **** as far as 'mantis' goes but I first became aware of the 'mission' as it were 5 years ago.

2 - It's a good thing and a good number of people see that.

Sifu Cottrell has busted his ass to get this thing off the ground and, IMO, the torch needs to be carried by all of us from this point forward.

Everyone is welcome to contribute but there are some ground rules, mostly concerning deportment. Sadly the Shanghai group has proven to be lacking in that area. Disagreements are fine and dandly and serve to keep things in line and mitigate the BS that can arise.


mantid1, I've not seen your post you keep talking about but the MQ forum doesn't get the daily traffic this place does and maybe no one but Robert had the time to answer....I dunno....6 years ago I just started bugging people with questions and noone dissed me at all....but I didn't get a lot of questions answered right away either. also, if I were interested in lining my pockets I'd be doing something else besides trying to teach martial arts.

...and, one of the things that's missing in the US mantis world is organization. Only too soon will martial arts teachers be required to pass some sort of State or Federal guidelines for owning a school. I personally would rather belong to an organization that knew exactly what I did and what I needed than NAPMA or MATA...or even US Kuoshu...but that's just my doomsaying about the state of things a few years from now...small school owners, like most of us I think, will need the protection and validation that comes from belonging to, and yes, being accredited by a nationally recognized organization.

[mantid1]

wow

Sorry guys

I like MQ. Really I do! I think Steve Cotrell is a **** fine young man!

I was just trying to give mr 108 some input into why the shanghai people are upset. This thread isnt about me its about them. Wow. I was just relating one of my experiences to show what may have given the shanghai group their opinion on the mq and kfo

Mr. 108, my first statement about the shanghai group still stands

And then I ask the question, "Why did I waste 10 minutes of my day posting on the subject anyway?"

Adios

[Oso]

mantid1, if I seemed like I was attacking you, i wasn't...just giving my opinion on the views expressed on this thread.

umm, if you haven't, you might want to go back and read some of the threads that people from the Shanghai group have started or participated in. there is a subtle, and not so freaking subtle, undercurrant to their entire attitude. you might also check out some of Sifu Pel's diatribes on his website. I find it very hard to accept that they are really, truly, honestly trying to have good dialogue with anyone else.

[shirkers1]

because you get sucked in just like the rest of us!!! :D See when you're at work and can't train.. Sometimes all you have is posting on a board like this... They kind of frown on me doing the 14 ways up and down the aisle ways here at work.. The cost of living is higher in other states and it takes more than a teachers income to support yourself, so some of us are forced to have a 9 to 5 job on top of training. ;)


Back to the original point.. The bridge may have already been burned, blown up, and completely destroyed by that group when it comes to certain issues. But like I said if they really want to be part of the group then just come out and say so, walk through the front door. If they are so concerned about the future of mantis they can do more good by being involved than sitting on the outside throwing stones.

[mantid1]

oso

I agree look at his web site and see wht he has posted about other people. If he is willing to do so much research on people he has never met I can just imagine the research he has done on mantis. :)

Shirkers

I used to teach kung fu on my lunch break in the good ole days. It was for people who could not make it to regular classes. You couldnt do alot but you could lay down a foundation for them. Plus I made a couple hundred a month extra ;)

There goes another three minutes of my day :(

[-N-]

They kind of frown on me doing the 14 ways up and down the aisle ways here at work..
I used to train on the roof of one of the buildings here at work during lunch breaks. Also worked out with students over lunch break in one of the big driveways at work.

My classmate used to practice applications when he was by himself in the elevator at his workplace.

N.

[shirkers1]

Oh I do as well, I even run through the sets while I'm on the toilet with my hands...

But getting an actual workout is another story... I have a desk job and getting all sweaty isn't an option, not that it's that hard breaking a sweat being that it's 115 degrees outside. :D Like I said it's easier said than done for some.