Chigung Sets in Mantis

[Raiyden]

Greetings All,

I am a student of 7 Star and Taiji Mantis. I wanted to hopefully start a discussion on Chigung sets in Mantis. My questions are -

1) How many sets are there as a part of the core Mantis curriculum?

2) What are their names, and the goals of their practice, their history?

3) Is there any non-mantis Chigung that is taught as a part of a kwoon's curriculum, and what is it's goal?

Regards.

[German Bai Lung]

Hi Rayden,

mainly there is the 18 Buddha Qi Gong tought in some Mantis Styles.
The name is (mostly) sap baat lohon gung.
Sifu Lee Kam Wing also teaches the 8 Brokat - Ba Dua Jin Qi gong. I think there are also very well known in the Mantis Families.

Benefits: QiGong can first benefit your physical attributes such as strength, flexibility and so on. Later QiGong should increase your Inner Energy, the flow of your Qi.

I hope Robert (Mantis108) and kevin chime in. They have a lot of knowledge about QiGong.

[mantis108]

Hi Raiyden,

Welcome to the forum. I am curious of your background. Are you affiliated with Sifu Tony Chui in NY?

Anyway, Qigong or Neigong in Mantis is a fascinating subject. In some lineages especially TJPM in mainland, there are loads of Qigong/Neigong practices.

There are 3 major "forms" in this area of study in Mantis:

1) Ba Duan Jin (8 sections of brocades)
2) San Hui Jiu Zhuan Huan Yang Fa (3 returns 9 rotations rendering Yang method)
3) Shi Ba Luo Han Gong (18 Arhat Conditioning)

One thing of note is that the first 2 are mostly found in the greater Meihwa lines; while, the 18 Luohan is most common to the Sevenstar lines. That being said, the progenitor of the GML, Liang Xuexiang did have the 18 Luohan manuscripts in his procession. The main focus of the GML neigong is mostly on the BDJ and SHJZ today tough.

I have submitted an article on this for the Mantis Quarterly. I am not sure when it is going to be released. You could check on the MQ forum (http://www.mantisquarterly.com/forum/index.php?) .

I definitely would love to hear your input on this area of study. Thanks

Regards

Mantis108

PS Jochen, thanks for the input. :)

[Oso]

Pong Lai has a warm up routine which, IN SOLELY MY OPINION, has a lot of qigong elements in it.


also, last year when Shiye Shi was in Tampa he had us do some walking qigong and then showed us a set that was specifically lung oriented...pretty cool stuff.

so, we have some for sure but given Shiye's broad spectrum of experience, there's no telling where it's from...but, it's on my list of questions to ask...maybe Kevin can enlighten us (hint, hint)

[mickey]

Greetings,

Though not a Mantis practitioner myself, I remember a friend from long ago telling me that there was another advanced set within the 7 Star system. He referred to it as a Lohan set. Could this be the Daruma exercises that the late Brendan Lai referred to in what was probably his last article in IKF?

mickey

[Raiyden]

Thank you for your input gentlemen!

Mantis108, yes I am a student of Mr. Chuy in NYC - I'm a rank beginner with less than 5 months of Tanglang under my belt (this should be a dead giveaway to any of my Sihings/Sijeis reading this :) ). I had the pleasure of PM interaction with 3 Harmonies on this forum before I made the decision to join Mr. Chuy's school (he also introduced me to the MQ forums). I'm enjoying it quite a bit, and focussing on my day-job during the day is becoming a little difficult ;) .

I brought this up because I didn't see a discussion about Mantis Qigong anywhere, and I'm curious as to what is done in different lineages, and as to whether any of the WHF sets were absorbed from the Ching-Woo curriculum or if they were always a part of 7 Star Mantis.

[mantis108]

Welcome to the CCK TCPM family then. :) Sifu Chuy is a senior of mine. I think you will enjoy his teaching.

In today's martial art world, a lot of people see Tanglang as external Kung Fu. So they presume that mantis don't have internal stuff (neigong). This is not true. Pre-Qing dynasty traditional Kung Fu as a whole didn't have this distinction. More and more around the 1900s CE people are categorical identify styles as external and internal. Due to this "peer pressure", many starting to look as mantis as external Kung Fu. Now, modern Wushu (government sanctioned) even wants to do away with the term Kung Fu. Part of the reason is that they have no clue about the Kung/Gong condition. Physical exercise and repetitive drilling movement is not gong per se. They slight it and brush it under the rug and hope that people will one day forget and will except their standard. I am glad that you have the curiousity to not let this be forgotten.

In CCK TCPM, the Pai Da Gong is IMHO a simplified version of SHJZ. This I am sure you will be introduced to given time. We also have some Taiji forms in our curriculum which is suitable for people of all ages. The Mantis Neigong are designed to compliment fighting ability and is more or less hard Qigong in nature although there are some for seated meditations as well (as far as I am aware). They are definitely for those who wish to develop the full potential of Mantis combat attributes.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[German Bai Lung]

In today's martial art world, a lot of people see Tanglang as external Kung Fu. So they presume that mantis don't have internal stuff (neigong). This is not true. Pre-Qing dynasty traditional Kung Fu as a whole didn't have this distinction. More and more around the 1900s CE people are categorical identify styles as external and internal. Due to this "peer pressure", many starting to look as mantis as external Kung Fu. Now, modern Wushu (government sanctioned) even wants to do away with the term Kung Fu. Part of the reason is that they have no clue about the Kung/Gong condition. Physical exercise and repetitive drilling movement is not gong per se. They slight it and brush it under the rug and hope that people will one day forget and will except their standard. I am glad that you have the curiousity to not let this be forgotten.


Mantis108

Well said, Robert! I also felt that a complete style should teach all kind of power-generations: external and internal. And since some time now, I KNOW that it has to be so.
So IMHO QiGong and other Internal Martial Arts like TaiJi, BaGua etc are a important piece of the whole in Chinese Martial Arts per se.

There is no lesson I give now, without some elements of QiGong or TaiJi. Better to start early to maybe develope the basics needed for Internal Power: relaxation!
(I bet, there is someone smiling now when he reads this ... :) Greets Mike!)

[K.Brazier]

Oso,
You learned an exercise where one hand slapped the belly as the other threw a punch.
This is from Xing Yi style.
This is also for two people where the other guy punches you in the gut.
I think that is a good aspect as you get to hit your partner in the gut and it is like hitting the bag(or beach ball...whatever....).

I still like the Mantis versions which have all the same ideas and feelings, it was just a different way to look at things thru the Xing Yi eyesight.
They come out in Mantis Kaoda.

One of my toughest Mantis teachers, as far as butt kicking potential(not your Shiye) was a bit of a disbeliever.
He thought that you needed enough qi to fiinish the fight-exercise-forms...whatever...and that making it mystical was a way to earn more $$from the student.

I can see where he is coming froom for several reasons.

Eg, I just started a new business and at the grand opening was a qi gung master who injects my body with his qi power to correct a lung imbalance he detected from witnessing the hard to see energy traveling thruogh my meridians.

This is the group who aspire to live off qi as all the food you need, just absorbing it from nature.

Well, maybe, but I wanna see it before I fork over the big bucks$$ for lessons.

And this is pretty common here.

Some classes even give the goods...

Take a full power punch to the guts??
Six months in advance payment.

Hang 50 kilo's from your sack and swing it around like a junkyard wrecking ball?

Yes, they even do closed door demos if you have the cash to join up.

So it is easy to be sceptical to say the least.

Shiye spent a wad of cash learning how to shoot qi from his finger tips.

He taught it to me for free...and...

After 16 years here I can tell these kind of stories all day long... haven't even scratched the surface..
But, really what Mantis 108 said is about what I have come across as the worhtwhile Mantis qigung.

I also learned a Yi Jin Jing, which is probably my favorite, it is similar in theory to the 3 Turns 9 rotations.

[Three Harmonies]

Kevin,
The exercise you describe is indeed part of the Xing Yi curriculum (as I know/practice it anyways).

Okay I hope you guys do not mind me being devils advocate here......everyone everywhere seems to have a favorite qi gong set. Are any of them truly derived solely for/from Mantis?? I use the same argument when folks ask me about Mantis weapons. Though we have certain sets that seem to be popular with various families etc. are there ever any true "Mantis" weapon sets?
If so what do we use as the criteria to classify such a qi gong method as "Mantis?" I have seen various teachers do various sets, but none I would attribute to just Mantis. Wang Rengang incorporates Dachengchuan into his Mantis teachings. I use Yi Chuan (Dachengchuan) as well. IN my warmups I use some pieces of the Ba Duan Jin, as well as the Five Animal frolics (one of my favorites). I have also spent a class teaching my mantis students San Ti (a variation of Yi Chuan really), as well as Wuji Zhuang. I am biased in that I think standing (Zhan Zhuang) is one of the most beneficial qi gong methods out there. But I did not learn ANY of this from Mantis teachers!

Robert,
Sun Lu Tang keyed the term "internal" even though most people say he never used the terms himself. As I have progressed (slowly :p ) I have come to find out there is no internal/external. I get just as much "qi" surging through my body doing Yi Chuan as I do Bung Bu! In a state of relaxed attention I believe the qi will flow regardless of what you are doing. Afterall qi is with us 110% of the time! If you do not have any.....well.....I guess you are a stand in for the next George Romero movie ;) :D !

Cheers
Jake :cool:

[-N-]

Shiye spent a wad of cash learning how to shoot qi from his finger tips.What color were the fireballs? :)

[-N-]

I have come to find out there is no internal/external. I get just as much "qi" surging through my body doing Yi Chuan as I do Bung Bu! In a state of relaxed attention.A lot of old school teachers have that point of view.

[mantid1]

Raiydan

It all depends on where your teacher learned there chi kung. I am sure there are specific chi kung sets adopted by specific styles of mantis. I doubt they would be "Mantis"

You have to remember that there are many different types of chi kung and that where developed for different reasons. To learn chi kung to "improve chi flow" is a very simplistic way of looking at it. There are many different types of "chi" . I

You should ask yourself how you would like to improve yourself with chi kung. Would you like to increase lung capacity, stronger legs, iron body, mental clarity? Go from there and find the appropriate chi kung for you. Yes there are many out ther like the 8 pieces that are very good overall chi kung sets.

I myself practice 3 sets of ci kung specific to what I am targeting and teach the 8 pieces as part of a tai chi warm up. I am also in the process of learning more but the chi kung is much like the kung fu. You have to build upon what you have, that is if you have a good teacher that understands it.

I do not beleive int the chi kung shot gun approach. It should be taught in a specific process.

I have not met many teachers who have not started a student without teaching wu jie breathing or jaap jong (standing post) first. These are the foundation for many chi kung and tai chi styles.

At my advanced age the tai chi and chi kung are becoming more important than the praying mantis boxing.

I know, got off subject.

[Oso]

Kevin, hmmm, yes, maybe, i think so...I remember we were kinda grabbing under our ribcages with our fingertips and massaging.


Jake,
I concur about standing qigong. I'd been doing a couple of other things and then learned a set supposedly attributed to Kyu Yu Cheong (I know that spellings all messed up) but ya'll probably know who I'm talking about, a chin woo guy from early 1900's.

anyway, what I felt this one did for me was so much greater than anything else, I stopped, and have mostly forgotten everything else.

I also agree about chi flowing when you are doing other stuff besides 'qigong'.

I feel it the most after a good hard fight or sparring session.




and, yes the whole chi thing can get blown out of proportion and be used by scam artists to get peoples money...but, there is something to it and it would be good to talk about it some more.

[mantisrider]

You can find more info about the Lo Hon Gung 18 forms published in the WHF 16 book series (book #4), although most of us may not be able to read it yet you can see what the moves look like and hopefully someday learn them.

Good luck

[mantis108]

Hi Guys,

Great inputs from all. :) I am glad that Jochen and Jake have similar observations towards Kung Fu.

1) Those, who know me, would know that I am a firm believer in evolution when it comes to Kung Fu. The implication is really that there are a fewer sources or God forbide even singular source where myriad of Chinese pugilistic traditions came from. This is why we can say Kung Fu is Kung Fu regardless of styles. There is a archetypical formula (ie 4 Attacks, 8 Methods, and 12 Dynamics) or DNA of this entity we called Kung Fu. It is unique and distingushed. The best way to experience this is to approach it as mystical discipline.

2) Great mystics who use pugilism as a medium are plentiful but non is so forth coming and open as Sun Lutang. He left 5 books that really clarified the study of Kung Fu as a mystic discipline plain and simple.

3) If we cross reference Sun's study with Tanglangquan especially the Greater Meihwa Lines, we would be amazed by the similar in theory behind the styles. It is of note that the Gong aspects remarkably share the same Daoist under pinnings.

4) I have been working on the theoretical portion of the Tanglang Neigong and will hopefully submit another article about I Ching (Classic of Change) and Pugilistic Anatomy from a mystical point of view in the near future.

5) According to the "Tanglang Quanpu" by Cui Shoushan that I have seen, there is indeed Yi Jingjing in Tanglang. I have not learned it. So I can't commnet further on it. May be Kevin could explain more on this. Now here's a juicy tip bit. I have received an exciting news that Shifu Ilya Profatilov is in the process of filming a draft for his upcoming video of Tanglang Neigong which will include BDJ (may be 2 versions) and YJJ. I have inquired about a ETA which he replied would be sometime this fall. The actual video release date is pending. BTW, SHJZ will not be included.

6) WHF's 18 Luohan book is a great book; however, he or may be the publisher decieded not to release the entire text of each stance (69 in total). This is rather disappointing because for research purposes, we have a hard time of getting the details. Thanks to our dear friend, Jochen, Kevin and I have been able to take a peek at the missing pieces. For now, I have come to some interesting thoughts about the 18 Luohan Gong especailly the 13th Road. This road in most styles are done as a push up. But in the text it would seem that this road is actually a type of Pa Hu (you hop on palms and toes while the body is prostrated) . It is Pa Hu hopping 3 times at least. This doesn't go to say that WHF is wrong. So please no body stone me for that. ;) This is consistant with the guideline laid out by the first road's text.

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

[Oso]

There is a archetypical formula (ie 4 Attacks, 8 Methods, and 12 Dynamics) or DNA of this entity we called Kung Fu. It is unique and distingushed. The best way to experience this is to approach it as mystical discipline.

Robert, where could I find this?

thanks,

Matt

[mantis108]

Believe it or not, the first time I hear about the 4A, 8M and 12D is from a Bak Mei book in Chinese. Then I have found it on some Long Fist sites. Some people claim that this is a formula from Changquan (longfist the style) But then Changquan is pretty much a range of things. So...

Anyway here's the Chinese characters:

四擊﹐ 八法﹐十二形

It is directly related to the ancient Chinese military concept (4 seasons, 8 directions, and 12 sectors):

四時﹐八節﹐十二度

of course, we can easily see the relationship between this and the 8 rigids and 12 fluids, which originally was staff fighting techniques that were found in various Ming dynasty military arts books.

Hope this helps.

Warm regards

Robert

[Oso]

Thanks, Robert.

any titles on the Bak Mei book? or the long fist books?

[mantis108]

The book is " White Eyebrow Basic Pugilism and Self Defence Techniques" by Li Yicheng. The Long Fist site is by one of GM Han Hsing Tang's groups in Taiwan I think. I don't have the URL on hand though. Sorry.

BTW, the 12 dynamics that are listed in the book is also extracted as written characters as art work by a Japanese animated series called Shootfighter Tekken. But that deadly style "Nan Chen Shadow style" in the series is more like karate plus Jit Jitsu. So...

Warm regards

Robert