Body builders and martial artists

[X-Warrior]

This is an interesting subject to bring up: Body builders and martial arts.

One of my greatest shock during my martial arts learning experiences was to witness body builders trying to learn martial arts in our - and other - schools. The thing is that these muscle giants would come to our class trying to learn martial art yet they turn out to be by far the greatest failures as students. First I didn't know what to make out of it but I think later I understood the problem: these men and women have worked hard at hardening and tightening their muscles by lifting heavy weights and the result of it were they were completely unable to relax to execute the smooth flowing techniques of martial arts. I have actually witnessed this in two separate schools and the most I can recall a body builder suffered is about four months before he would finally give up an leave.

Anyone had similar or different experiences with body builders trying to learn martial art? Anyone seen any real success of a body builder learning an art?

-X-

[brothernumber9]

Try a web search for Hung Ga Sifu Chiu Wai.

[David]

A high-proportion of new students coming in have gym-jock backgrounds. They have a high dropout rate for a couple of reasons.

The first is caused by the gym-blinkers they wear. They come in to class, look around sizing us all up and decide where they slot into the heirarchy(!). All too quickly, they find their muscles don't count for anything in use.

The second is that their muscles physically get in the way, preventing correct alignment, much as if they were obese. Their limbs do not have the freedom of movement of slighter folks because of the exaggerated padding they carry all over.

Most leave at the first realisation. Any that stay around, go through the second 'test' at which point they give up the weights or give up the kung fu.

Rgds,
David

[TonyM.]

Back when I was a correctional officer we had a few guys (inmates) that were body builders. On my first day monitoring the gym I quickly realized none of them could throw a proper (effective) punch.

[cche7]

I made that mistake recently as well. I took a 8 month hiatus from class and when I came back, let's just say I wasn't in the same condition as when I left. I decided to go back to the gym and lift weights in order to get back into shape. Yes, I didn't gain over 40 pounds of muscles and I did feel stronger. The downside was that I felt slower and I was fatiguing much more faster than before. After speaking to a friend of mine who was a personal trainer, he suggested that I try changing my routine around and incorporate circuit training into my workouts. After a few weeks, I wasn't as fatiguing as quickly when I was training in class and my energy levels has gone up. Occasionally, I'll hit the weights again, but only use extremely light weights and it'll be a part of the circuit training that I now do.

[BIGG S-MANTIS]

im not a body builder but i am a short big guy. i weigh in at 275 lbs and have about 20% body fat. i am a first year student and i like my kung fu and i do see my weight loss in some areas and not in others. any advice that anyone has to help loose the beer belly and the cream cheese thighs would be helpful.

[WinterPalm]

I think that one element that gets in the way is when people too used to using force and pure muscle energy are unable to comprehend the idea of not resisting but flowing, using leverage, applying pressure when needed, etc. Obviously this comes in time but I am starting to be able to tell when someone does or has done a lot of muscle training or is unable to comprehend the idea of not using force all at once but in either little steps, like smooth on and off pressure, or leverage.

On the other hand, if the guy is strong enough he may be able to use force, to an extent, but often it can be used against him, much like aggression. You just have to understand what is happening. Big guys, for many, do not need training as their strength and size gives them a psychological edge, not to mention physical superiority, that is why Kung Fu develops many levels and ways of dealing with opponents and not just an execution of force on force. But getting someone to relax, including yourself in high stress environments or settings can be very difficult.

[Fu-Pow]

[QUOTE=cche7. After speaking to a friend of mine who was a personal trainer, he suggested that I try changing my routine around and incorporate circuit training into my workouts. After a few weeks, I wasn't as fatiguing as quickly when I was training in class and my energy levels has gone up. Occasionally, I'll hit the weights again, but only use extremely light weights and it'll be a part of the circuit training that I now do.[/QUOTE]

Thats the same point I'm at. If I lift weights its part of a whole body circuit. I incorporate weights and body weight exercises into a continous aerobic workout. It won't make you big but it will give you strength and endurance which is more important for kung fu.

Lol, I'd like to see what would happen to this thread if it was posted in the weight training...ahem....heath and training board.

Maybe I'll post a link.

[Samurai Jack]

Lol, you'd get a reply like mine:

I've been weight training for around six years, and practicing martial arts for twenty-two. Weight training has helped my martial art practice, and I've gained around forty pounds of muscle. The key is practice. Those body-builders who gave up after six months were selling themselves short. They'd be miles ahead of thier peers if they took the time to learn to relax.

The problem is that most untrained individuals think that a big, muscular guy is going to automatically be a great fighter. The fact is that he's going to be just as clumsy as any other untrained guy, plus he'll need to learn, or rather un-learn, any unhealthy habits he's picked up from weight training. Once he does this though, he'll be stronger, faster, and more physically fit than non-weight trained individuals... it just takes a little longer because there's more baggage to let go of.

[Ravenshaw]

When I started lifting weights, I had already been practicing bak siu lum for a few years, so I already knew how to relax. I gained about 10 lbs. of muscle before I joined a wingtsun class. The instructors thought that I would probably be too stiff and inflexible, so they told me I might have a hard time of it. I'm both the biggest and the softest student there.

People who lift before coming into martial arts will have more of a problem, of course, because they don't know how to relax. Plus, although it is common knowledge that one should, I never see lifters stretching at the gym. If they learned to relax and had the flexibility, their muscles may even be an asset. I'm not sure if I know anyone with muscles so big they "get in the way."

As somebody mentioned before, Hung Gar masters Chiu Wai and Chiu Gau were also bodybuilders. I met Chiu Wai once when he visited my sifu's school in the U.S. He is 70-something years old and enormous for his age. Clearly, if trained correctly, weight training is compatible with martial arts.

[Cung-Fu]

Yes, I noticed this problem too.

The problem with that is "bodybuilding" training ( the sets, reps, load percentages, execution) which promote maximum muscles growth also slows down the ability for the muscle fibers to fire rapidly (power). Power which is very important in martial arts and most combative sports. Without quoting, research has shown this.

Another problem with bodybuilding methods is most bodybuilders, ie your local gym jock, trains muscles in isolation, to promote maximum definition and growth of the specific muscle group. That is why when complex movements, such as martial arts, which require synergistic coordination of the entire body are done they are grossly uncoordinated. Your body will respond to the way it trains, no secret there. If you train your muscles to move in isolation and in ways that doesn't mimic your martial arts you can't expect to be a superior martial artist, just cause you got big muscles.

On the other hand, strength training for sports can improve your martial arts ability. I had a semi professional track and field athelete come to learn MA, and boy, once he picked up on flow, coordination and the basics of MA he was someone to be reckoned with.

[SevenStar]

This is an interesting subject to bring up: Body builders and martial arts.

One of my greatest shock during my martial arts learning experiences was to witness body builders trying to learn martial arts in our - and other - schools. The thing is that these muscle giants would come to our class trying to learn martial art yet they turn out to be by far the greatest failures as students. First I didn't know what to make out of it but I think later I understood the problem: these men and women have worked hard at hardening and tightening their muscles by lifting heavy weights and the result of it were they were completely unable to relax to execute the smooth flowing techniques of martial arts. I have actually witnessed this in two separate schools and the most I can recall a body builder suffered is about four months before he would finally give up an leave.

Anyone had similar or different experiences with body builders trying to learn martial art? Anyone seen any real success of a body builder learning an art?

-X-

I come from a bodubuilding background, as do several of the guys I train. There are a few things to keep in mind:

1. stretching. as long as adequate stretching is done, they will be fine.

2. myths - size doesn't make you inflexible and slow - you have to be HYOOOGE in order for that to happen - I mean massively huge - like bigger than dorian yates hyoooge, if you know who he is. There are several body builders who can do a full split.

[SevenStar]

The second is that their muscles physically get in the way, preventing correct alignment, much as if they were obese. Their limbs do not have the freedom of movement of slighter folks because of the exaggerated padding they carry all over.

see above point about stretching.


Most leave at the first realisation. Any that stay around, go through the second 'test' at which point they give up the weights or give up the kung fu.


No need to abandon either - weight training will only help them. They need to be properly educated on how to make their training benefit and cooperate with their MA.

[SevenStar]

Back when I was a correctional officer we had a few guys (inmates) that were body builders. On my first day monitoring the gym I quickly realized none of them could throw a proper (effective) punch.


neither could you before you started training, I'm sure. that's NOT because they are BBs, it's because they are untrained.

[SevenStar]

I made that mistake recently as well. I took a 8 month hiatus from class and when I came back, let's just say I wasn't in the same condition as when I left. I decided to go back to the gym and lift weights in order to get back into shape. Yes, I didn't gain over 40 pounds of muscles and I did feel stronger. The downside was that I felt slower and I was fatiguing much more faster than before. After speaking to a friend of mine who was a personal trainer, he suggested that I try changing my routine around and incorporate circuit training into my workouts. After a few weeks, I wasn't as fatiguing as quickly when I was training in class and my energy levels has gone up. Occasionally, I'll hit the weights again, but only use extremely light weights and it'll be a part of the circuit training that I now do.


1. you put on 40 lbs - your body wasn't used to working with that extra load on it.

2. YOU TOOK OFF OF TRAINING FOR 8 MONTHS. your conditioning would've gone down anyway, rather you started bulking up or not.

3. it's not that you needed circuit training, it's that you needed some form- any form - of a cardio workout. circuit training was just one option. If you check my blog on the fitness forum, I bench close to 300 and squat over 400 - many of the other posters lift heavy as well. Lifting heavy wasn't slowing you down - it was a combination of other things.

[SevenStar]

People who lift before coming into martial arts will have more of a problem, of course, because they don't know how to relax. Plus, although it is common knowledge that one should, I never see lifters stretching at the gym. If they learned to relax and had the flexibility, their muscles may even be an asset. I'm not sure if I know anyone with muscles so big they "get in the way."



take a newb and throw him into a grappling class. note what happens. Watch someone sparring for the fist time... they are tense. Why? It's a new thing to them. Once they have been doing it for awhile, they will relax into it. you guys have to stop attributing this to the fact that the person is a body builder.

[Ravenshaw]

you guys have to stop attributing this to the fact that the person is a body builder.

I wasn't. I was saying they'd have more of a problem than I would because they, like any newb as you pointed out, aren't relaxed yet. No disagreement here.

[Samurai Jack]

SevenStar has taken the correct, and knocked it's dang head off... and he lifts weights.

[X-Warrior]

Yup, weight training is good if it's done right. I do light weights and more reps, this increases speed and puts more power into the punches. Heavy weights can make you stiff quick.

I remember this one case when a short but very muscular guy walked in. I showed him a couple of techniques to practice and right away he asked how I would block his punch. He threw the punch, I redirected his power and he d-a-m-n near just flew away.

I think I was more shocked than he was, I realized that he was so incredibly stiff and this will take a long time to correct. I think he did too because he never came back again ... :).

A few more lifters followed him and althogh some stayed longer, the results were the same: instructors had to spend extra time and stayed with these guys and gals after class to correct them.

-X-

[SevenStar]

Yup, weight training is good if it's done right. I do light weights and more reps, this increases speed and puts more power into the punches. Heavy weights can make you stiff quick.

I remember this one case when a short but very muscular guy walked in. I showed him a couple of techniques to practice and right away he asked how I would block his punch. He threw the punch, I redirected his power and he d-a-m-n near just flew away.

I think I was more shocked than he was, I realized that he was so incredibly stiff and this will take a long time to correct. I think he did too because he never came back again ... :).

A few more lifters followed him and althogh some stayed longer, the results were the same: instructors had to spend extra time and stayed with these guys and gals after class to correct them.

-X-


Actually, light weights don't increase power - they increase muscular endurance. Heavy weights don't make you stiff either. remember to stretch. ANYONE who doesn't stretch adequately will be more stiff than the people who do.

[Cung-Fu]

SevenStar-


Actually, light weights don't increase power - they increase muscular endurance. Heavy weights don't make you stiff either.

Exactly, common misconception. Although power development will depend on exaxctly how light and how heavy the load is, and what phase of strength training you are in, generally, light weights high reps increases endurance.

[hskwarrior]

For once i actually agree with sevenstar. stretching is one of the keys to combining martial arts with body building. One of my students is about 6 ft tall and close to 300 lbs, and not fat. We nickname him iron ox because he is hella solid. The bad thing is that he is super tight all over. At first he couldn't even touch his toes, he had very limited upper body mobility because of being such a strong guy. But since i have been focusing on stretching him more than anyone he has began to show major improvements, can touch his toes now his upper body even has more range of movement.

but the one thing i noticed and tell me if anyone's experienced this is that body builders even though they are noticeably very strong, they are so caught up about how strong they are that they overpower every single gung fu technique.
i have had to tell them to slow down and not use so much power. they are already strong and most likely should start working on speed than anything.

I can't lie as a long time martial artist, it is pretty humorous to watch some body builders try and throw long range techniques like sow choy, or even Kwa Choy.
because of the tightness in their biceps and triceps all their strikes are shortened up.

but once again, the key to bodybuilding and martial arts is stretching. it will work out in the end if the body builder works towards that.


frank

[TonyM.]

Seven star has caught the correct yet again. And I was stupid enough to show a few of these guys a little boxing. Actually they really weren't bad guys, just guys that made stupid mistakes.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

7star: yep, stretching is important for muscle guys. if you can get a vid of iska's 2002 k-1 bout and look at this guy Mcdonald he's a good example of what good weight training and cardio arts can do for a fighter.

here's something that's kinda pilotese (sp?) -ish: start with a 10 lb hex head dumbbell. go through your preforms with it until you can do each preform 30 times with the weight at full speed. then increase your weight five pounds. it may be a slow method but it will not hurt your joints as you progress or shock-damage them by starting with too much weight. after you can do your preforms at 15 lbs then switch to your first form with ten pounds. after that tai chi chuan yang-88. the fast forms combined with a slow form seem to make more of a difference with the people i have trained in the past.

*do not go over 18lbs.* your joints just aren't strong enough to handle it.

[SevenStar]

but the one thing i noticed and tell me if anyone's experienced this is that body builders even though they are noticeably very strong, they are so caught up about how strong they are that they overpower every single gung fu technique.
i have had to tell them to slow down and not use so much power. they are already strong and most likely should start working on speed than anything.


they've conditioned their bodies for that forceful explosion required for them to throw the weight up. I think that is why this happens.

[X-Warrior]

I wanted to add to this subject last week but I just didn't get the time.

Last weekend on one of the cable channels there was a show on women body builders, I don't know if anyone seen it. These women were competing in international competitions and a camera crew followed a couple of them and showed what it's like to become a competitor at this level.

Anyway, the one thing surprised me here - again - is that what they said about these competitors just before they would show up for their show time: when they look the strongest, they are actually at their weekest!

The narrator explained that the competitors work so hard for months that by the time they get to show off their muscles on the stage, they are completely exhausted and unable to lift any weight yet this is the time when their muscles looks the biggest and the most easiest to flex. I thought this was very interesting.

Once again, what you see is not what you get.

-X-
PS: by the way these women all looked so ugly without their two inch make ups that it really grossed me out. They were fantastic looking on stage and on the photo shots but once all the make up came down, they looked like guys who were beaten up every weekend in a bar. From the steroid use their voices were also deep like mens' voices; they all sounded like men when they were talking to each other. Brrrrrrrrrr :(. Why beautiful women ruin their beauty just for a few pounds of muscles?

[SevenStar]

I wanted to add to this subject last week but I just didn't get the time.

Last weekend on one of the cable channels there was a show on women body builders, I don't know if anyone seen it. These women were competing in international competitions and a camera crew followed a couple of them and showed what it's like to become a competitor at this level.

Anyway, the one thing surprised me here - again - is that what they said about these competitors just before they would show up for their show time: when they look the strongest, they are actually at their weekest!

The narrator explained that the competitors work so hard for months that by the time they get to show off their muscles on the stage, they are completely exhausted and unable to lift any weight yet this is the time when their muscles looks the biggest and the most easiest to flex. I thought this was very interesting.

Once again, what you see is not what you get.


there are a few reasons for that. Another reason is that they are dehydrated somewhat - they don't look that defined all of the time - they need as little bodyfat and water weight as possible. extra water leads to loss of definition. What you see IS what you get though, in their case. They still have their strength. You are talking about guys that bench over 400 lbs. even at their weakest, they are stronger than pretty much everyone else.



PS: by the way these women all looked so ugly without their two inch make ups that it really grossed me out. They were fantastic looking on stage and on the photo shots but once all the make up came down, they looked like guys who were beaten up every weekend in a bar. From the steroid use their voices were also deep like mens' voices; they all sounded like men when they were talking to each other. Brrrrrrrrrr :(. Why beautiful women ruin their beauty just for a few pounds of muscles?

This is also just during competition season. During the off season, male and female bodybuilders carry more weight on their bodies. So, during the off season, the women look softer - just like any other shapely woman.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
I used to body build, and I actually found that it helped my training in wing chun kung fu, But I did streched alot between each set to maintain flexiblity.

I usually took some time off from kung fu while I was wieght training, about 6 month to a year. when I hit a plateu in weight training I would get bored and return to kung fu training. when I did I usually feel stronger but had to retrain my muscles to work in a more fine tune way. I am not quite sure if it's because I didn't train kung fu for a while and therefore loss some coordintaion, or it had to do with different types of muscle memory.

From my understanding power lifting is much more complimentarly to kung fu or martial arts training than body building. It's based on being relaxed and on coordination of the joints by using structural power as opposed to just pumping your muscle with blood like bodybuilding. Also it develops more densely packed muscle fibers for functional strength as oppose to the pumped effect that can be seen in bodybuilding.

In olden days in china alot of traditional kung fu styles used weight training in their curiculam. White crane and SPM used cement wieghts, jar grip training, even some of the two man exercises or chi sao uses the resistance of a training partner.

If you take a look at any recent boxing or NHB event you would clearly see that pretty much all the fighters train with weights, and they shure as hell are not slow or uncoordinated. I think trianing with weights can definately help with any athletics, it can improve speed, power, coordination, stamina as well as mental focus is done in the right way.

Kung Fu fighter

[X-Warrior]

You're correct kung fu fighter, weight training is important in martial arts as well, I was trying to point out the different ways body builders train from martial artists.

As we all know body builders train with heavy weights and with few reps, this increases their strenght and power, and the 'look' or size of their muscles, which is the main point of body building. This kind of muscle, however, makes you stiff and slows you down in your movements.

Martial artists train with leight weights and more reps which doesn't increases but rather condenses muscles and creates a different, more fluid, flexible and exploding power. You are still strong but your powers are 'packed' or hidden more.

I recall an incident when one body builder guy came to our school, I was instructing the new students. Greated him and put him in with the other beginners. I was probably about half of his size, he had huge muscles and I could see he was proud of them. When I got to him again and asked him if he had any questions he asked me how I would block one of his punches - I just knew he was going to that :). I told him to throw a punch at me, which he did. I redirected his power which made him very nearly fell over towards his punch.

At this time I was shocked because this was the first time I tried a body builder and just with the touch of my fingers I could redirect his power, and he was shocked because he didn't think this little skinny guy could do that to him. Too bad he never came back after his first class; I think he just realized he was too far into heavy weight training and didn't want to put in the time to correct it to use it for defense.

In other cases I've seen other instructors separating these guys from the others to work with them. They were just so stiff and unable to execute the techniques. Then they all leave in a few months, too bad they all gave up so quickly. They could have learned how to use their great powers, just none of them wanted to put in the time and effort.

It's all in the ability how to use power, not so much how much power you have. It's the martial arts way.

Sorry guys for the long answer.

-X-

[Fitdoc]

Judging from most of the responses in this thread, most of you have terrible misconceptions regarding bodybuilding and bodybuilders' abilities to successfully participate in martial arts (MA) training.

I am a national level competitive bodybuilder and a northern shaolin practitioner. I have had no problems training in both disciplines. In fact, i know numerous persons who train in both bodybuilding and MA or even MMA. Check out www.ronharrismuscle.com, www.teamflexwheeler, and www.jermaineandre.com. These three are only a few of the many, many people who successfully combine MA and bodybuilding.

Also, as some have noted, weightlifting does not make one "slow", just as being a non-weightlifter does not make one "fast". Velocity of a punch, kick, duck, bob, weave, etc, is dependent upon many factors. At 5' 7" and 205 lbs, my sifu says i am one of the quickest students in our school, but i am also the most "muscular". The two attributes are not mutually exclusive.

Lastly, on another note, the TLC program referenced earlier is called "Supersize She" and it was a documentary following English female bodybuilder, Joanne Thomas. The observance that most competitive bodybuilders, including myself, are weakest as a contest approaches is due to two main facts. One, a drastic decrease in caloric intake obviously saps strength and two, weight loss associated with competition preparation invariably involves muscle tissue loss. Though bodybuilders' muscles are actually smaller when we're competing on stage than in the off-season, because of very low bodyfat levels, the illusion is created that we're bigger than usual.

Anyway, the point of this post is to dispel the myth that bodybuilders are incapable of or have great difficulty excelling in MA.

[Cung-Fu]

X-Warrior-
As we all know body builders train with heavy weights and with few reps, this increases their strenght and power, and the 'look' or size of their muscles, which is the main point of body building. This kind of muscle, however, makes you stiff and slows you down in your movements.

Actually bodybuilding, which is about promoting max. size (hypertrophy) and definition of muscles, uses a sub-maximum weight and reps to exhaustion, usually performed at a moderate to slow pace. Therefore, reps can range up to 15, maybe even 18 reps, depending on the individual, which may not seem that low. But you are right in the sense that this type of training does slow your nerve muscle fiber connection.

However, the use of maximum weight and very low reps (1-5) that I THINK you are referring to, does not promote size as much as strength. This type of training lays the foundation for power oriented feats, such as martial arts, boxing, sprints, gymnastics, etc.

I am not sure what you mean by "condensing" muscles, but depeding on how light the weight is and how many reps and how you perform it, the blanket statement of just using light weight high rep does not increase exploding power. Light weight high reps, usually increase endurance.

Weight training can definately help martial arts ability, but it must be done right, it is not as simple as high reps low weights, size training slows you down...etc

I would assume that at national level competition, bodybuilder's such as fitdoc would usually accumulate enough knowledge to know the difference between training to strike a pose and training to strike someone. Hence the difference between him and your local gym jock like the one you encountered X-Warrior.

[7th gen yang]

Actually bodybuilding, which is about promoting max. size (hypertrophy) and definition of muscles, uses a sub-maximum weight and reps to exhaustion, usually performed at a moderate to slow pace. Therefore, reps can range up to 15, maybe even 18 reps, depending on the individual, which may not seem that low. But you are right in the sense that this type of training does slow your nerve muscle fiber connection.

However, the use of maximum weight and very low reps (1-5) that I THINK you are referring to, does not promote size as much as strength. This type of training lays the foundation for power oriented feats, such as martial arts, boxing, sprints, gymnastics, etc.

I am not sure what you mean by "condensing" muscles, but depeding on how light the weight is and how many reps and how you perform it, the blanket statement of just using light weight high rep does not increase exploding power. Light weight high reps, usually increase endurance.

Weight training can definately help martial arts ability, but it must be done right, it is not as simple as high reps low weights, size training slows you down...etc

I would assume that at national level competition, bodybuilder's such as fitdoc would usually accumulate enough knowledge to know the difference between training to strike a pose and training to strike someone. Hence the difference between him and your local gym jock like the one you encountered X-Warrior.
Hi all
Just adding my 2 cents
I started training with weights when I was Fifteen yrs old, My friends sister was in college studing sport science. she had a program for a paper she was doing for her final grade I was her subject. How to obtain mass and strength Using Amino acids for supplements I use to take these horse pills(amino acids that she provided. the first 3 months I lost all of my Baby fat (so to speak), and noticed some improvements in speed, and strength. In six months I was developing my chest, arms, back, legs, delts,neck, after 1 year I stopped taking the supplement so the rest of my training was natural
in three years I was 235 with 11 percent body fat. I continued on my own after her paper was done Just a note she recieved and A for the Class A+ on her paper. I also found certain methods worked on other people and some other methods didn't
The Method I used to increase strength was every six weeks I would pyaramid on a machine what ever muscle I was focusing on; how that worked was I would start the heaviest weight I could do in one repition Then I would do the next lowest weight on the stack and do 2 reps then third lowest plate I would do Three reps and so on until the I went through the stack then I would go back up the stack the same way my Strength increase to the point that I could not find a Machine that had enough weight in the stack This is only one way but I was able to increase my strength on each of my exercises by 5 to 10 pounds
I had studied martial arts And had kept on Stretching But I lost alot of speed in punches and especially inward type blocks as My tricepts and chest were so big that they would rub a rash under my arms Drove me crazy Because I didn't like to walk like body builder walks and decided to stop building muscle mass to persue my martial arts again.
At that time I started training Kenpo from a private master ( Lived with him for 3 years) I had quit doing the weights so heavily. and focused on ability What I did notice Is that my training After losing the muscle mass Is that My speed is much faster than most, I have learned to use, and Isolate my Tagonistic and Antogonist muscles with more precision (start and End of twitch)mostly because I Isolated the muscle and gave me more control later In my More advanced training and coordination my strength doesn't seem to have diminished too much. Yes body builders do lose the Speed and expect a lot of hard work to gain it back or even maintain it. This is my experience take it as you will

[Rokto_Obotar]

I am 6'3'' 200lbs I have 12% body fat and I can bench a decent amount. Im not a body builder but I paly football and we work out every day for 3-4hours. I have been doing martial arts longer than football maybe thats why but I have no trouble with it. MA takes patience and relaxation alot of people dont have it wether they are body builders or regular people. I have seen many people fail HUGE, small, fat, tall, skinny very different varietys. I think that every person can do a MA just one that fits them. A body builder would be better of in BJJ (maybe), TKD< Muai Thai, Wing Chun, ect...

[SevenStar]

It's because of how you were training. You stated that you were doing machine exercises. This tells me right off the bat that you were doing isolation exercises. Also, you don't get full use of the stabilizing muscles as you do with free weights.


I am 5'10, 230, bench close to 300 and squat over 400. I can do high kicks, spinning kicks, jump spinning kicks, etc. When I was training in longfist, I was able to do a tornado kick and land on the same leg I kicked with... It's all in how you train.

[7th gen yang]

It's because of how you were training. You stated that you were doing machine exercises. This tells me right off the bat that you were doing isolation exercises. Also, you don't get full use of the stabilizing muscles as you do with free weights.


I am 5'10, 230, bench close to 300 and squat over 400. I can do high kicks, spinning kicks, jump spinning kicks, etc. When I was training in longfist, I was able to do a tornado kick and land on the same leg I kicked with... It's all in how you train.

I am 6'1 240lbs. right now and Still as flexible (Full split when cold) when I was in my prime
I agree about the stabilizing with free weight
every six weeks I did the Machines the remainder of my time was free weights and or body weight exercises.

[SevenStar]

What lifts were you doing?

[7th gen yang]

What lifts were you doing?

my bench at that time was 350-375
my squat was 425-450 (Iwould hack squat 710lbs)
at that time I was obcessed with the pump I got. it was funny my friends were all lifters of their high School power lifting team I would go to their school to workout their coach always asked me every time I walked into the door "so when are you going to compete for me" I was just into working out I NEVER HAD A DAY OFF! I look back now and I probably should have, I would of done pretty good but I didn't All I know every time I lifted people gathered I was just there to work out No Ego JUST ENJOYED IT

['MegaPoint]

You're correct kung fu fighter, weight training is important in martial arts as well, I was trying to point out the different ways body builders train from martial artists.

As we all know body builders train with heavy weights and with few reps, this increases their strenght and power, and the 'look' or size of their muscles, which is the main point of body building. This kind of muscle, however, makes you stiff and slows you down in your movements.

Martial artists train with leight weights and more reps which doesn't increases but rather condenses muscles and creates a different, more fluid, flexible and exploding power. You are still strong but your powers are 'packed' or hidden more.

-X-

If you are weight training for size you use heavy weight with 6-10 reps max and 3-4 sets. If you are training for definition you use lighter weight and more reps (12-15), 3-5 sets. Endurance is increased either way, but real endurance comes from smart and moderate aerobic exercise.

If you were flexible to begin with, meaning if you had natural ligamentous laxity (flexible ligaments) even before lifting, you'll still be flexible after the muscle hypertophy. Trust me.

This myth about training with heavy weights and low reps that you're spouting shows your lack of real scientific knowledge. Have you seen most American football running backs and linebackers? They have very large muscles, are flexible, fast and resilient. Extra muscle is like armor too.

My youngest brother is 73" and about 165 pounds. He uses 50 lb. dumbells for his biceps curls and 185 lbs. free-weight for his flat bench sets. He is fast, flexible and just naturally strong. He doesn't even work out regularly, but he has to lift heavier weight to get any feel or result out of it. My other brother who is a spine surgeon, played starting fullback for S.W. Tex. State Univ. (now Tx. State Univ.) and at the time could run a 4.45 40 yd. sprint, flat bench 415 pounds 5 times, used 120 lb. dumbells for "light" chest flies, and 80 pound dumbells for biceps curls (sets). He is still pretty much that strong some 10+ years later. He is also a BB in Shorin Ryu with no real grappling background and once handled a BJJ purple belt who weighed about 270 (he's like 225 lbs.) with ease. He is so flexible that even without stretching for years he can still do full-chinese splits. Muscles are an advantage not a disadvantage, especially if you are already flexible, SMART and fast.

What this rant means is that there are folks out there who are just genetically superior to most. They are not the norm, but there are more than just a few. They can be of any race or ethnicity and the masses' ideas of things are usually based on themselves, not the whole. You could be one and not even know your full potential because you play into the lifting myth. If you have the propensity to get big with lifting that doesn't mean that it will hamper you in any way. It might, but it's always better to have muscle when doing physical activities, like fighting or sports, than to have none or very little. There is a reason that even baseball guys want to get big (so they sometimes juice to enhance what nature failed to give them).

The big muscles thing is a matter of physics and physiques. You can't make linear statements, blanket generalizations based on some made up stuff. I can say that a lot of powerlifters I've known suffered from muscle stiffness due to their jerky or limited range of motion training, but there are a lot of bodybuilder types who are very flexible and fast. In fact Flex Wheeler is a TKD BB, who can do the full splits, and he was Mr. Olympia caliber at one time.

Just stretch between sets instead of staring at the second hand on some clock, don't rest for more than 30 secs. between sets (60 secs. max), and keep doing your MA. Watch how much things change for the positive in every respect.

BTW most trainers ain't jack! Just look at them. You'd be better off to ask the resident gym rat about what to do to get big or strong. They are there to make you spend more money at the gym, and their techniques are not only downright silly and unscientific, but also possibly injurious or even dangerous (like balancing on a giant ball while doing chest presses or supposed plyometric jump/twist training for the non-athlete). Don't believe the hype.

Safe training to you all!

[Cung-Fu]

7th gen yang-

Iam not sure why you address your statements to me specifically, beacuse iam not disagreeing with what you say.

Bodybuilding weight training methods does slow a person down, or maybe I should say are not ideal for power oriented sports. Strength training for sports is a different animal, and information on the subject is certainly not as prolific; with bodybuilding weight training dominating most of the media. In fact some countries use to even keep these things rather secret, because these are the methods used by most competitive sports, ie track and field, gymnastics,...

The pyramid you described, a sort of inverted scheme, is more for bodybuiding (hypertrophy) than increase in strength or power. I mean look at the amount of reps you would do using that method, how many total going up and down the stack? 30, 40, 50,...? Your own results tell you, you are working on hypertrophy
( THE PUMP).

Strength of course increases, becasue with size comes extra strength, but it is not ideal for power development. In fact in hinders you, that is why strectching is so emphasized by everyone here.

And of course genetics plays a very important role, next to the amount of steriods used in competitive sports. :)

[7th gen yang]

7th gen yang-

Iam not sure why you address your statements to me specifically, beacuse iam not disagreeing with what you say.

Bodybuilding weight training methods does slow a person down, or maybe I should say are not ideal for power oriented sports. Strength training for sports is a different animal, and information on the subject is certainly not as prolific; with bodybuilding weight training dominating most of the media. In fact some countries use to even keep these things rather secret, because these are the methods used by most competitive sports, ie track and field, gymnastics,...

The pyramid you described, a sort of inverted scheme, is more for bodybuiding (hypertrophy) than increase in strength or power. I mean look at the amount of reps you would do using that method, how many total going up and down the stack? 30, 40, 50,...? Your own results tell you, you are working on hypertrophy
( THE PUMP).

Strength of course increases, becasue with size comes extra strength, but it is not ideal for power development. In fact in hinders you, that is why strectching is so emphasized by everyone here.

And of course genetics plays a very important role, next to the amount of steriods used in competitive sports. :)

cung fu

I was not specifically picking on you or anyone I am still trying to understand how to use this forum I am Just a little computer Illiterate Forgive me I was just adding to this forum "my 2 cents or 1 cent" whatever Cents you get out of It. Everyone is different some people will take offense to what I say, Some might learn something new and interesting I try to learn something new every day! I try to share my views, my experience, my love to teach, and share things that have helped me from people I learned from, and shared with me whether it was wrong or right. I still learn from people. And because some people in this world only think about themselves as for me sharing is what life is about sorry if you took it wrong no pun intended LIFE IS TOO SHORT enjoy what you have for tommorrow might not be here! JUST ENJOYING MY LIFE!

[Cung-Fu]

7th gen yang-

I think we have a miscommunication here. I didn't take ANY offense to what you said before or now. You weren't being hostile nor do I think I was.

You quoted my previous post, so naturally I thought you were addressing me specifically about something. Nothing offensive or hostile intended on my part, I assure you.

[SevenStar]

my bench at that time was 350-375
my squat was 425-450 (Iwould hack squat 710lbs)
at that time I was obcessed with the pump I got. it was funny my friends were all lifters of their high School power lifting team I would go to their school to workout their coach always asked me every time I walked into the door "so when are you going to compete for me" I was just into working out I NEVER HAD A DAY OFF! I look back now and I probably should have, I would of done pretty good but I didn't All I know every time I lifted people gathered I was just there to work out No Ego JUST ENJOYED IT


How actively were you stretching?

[fa_jing]

compressed rest periods ( 30, 60 seconds ) will promote hypertrophy of the muscles among other things ( conditioning, strength etc). To emphasize strength, you need long rest periods of 3-5 minutes or more, if you have time to be Paul Anderson sitting around all day lifting weights.

[fa_jing]

and I think 7* was being a bit modest in his lifts - - unless he lies in his training logs. :p

[7th gen yang]

How actively were you stretching?

Seven star

every day I stretched. But I stretched after my workouts, I just performed warm-ups before my lifts Jogging/sprinting/skipping rope, I did minor stretches for what ever I was was working on at the time, but went into more detailed stretching after my workouts.

[SevenStar]

then you're just weird, dude... considering your height, you're not extremely big... definitely not enough to have lost a significant amount of flexibility if you were doing everything else properly. Is your current weight what you weighed before you quit lifting also?

[7th gen yang]

then you're just weird, dude... considering your height, you're not extremely big... definitely not enough to have lost a significant amount of flexibility if you were doing everything else properly. Is your current weight what you weighed before you quit lifting also?


My weight when I stopped doing weights was 245lbs I have lost a lot of muscle mass But I can assure you my Mass was ALLNatural No Roids Here! It was Hard not to work out ,

I had tried to work out with weights again but I had to stop because my muscles just started to grow to the size I was (I believe it is called muscle Memory), and the tightness was imparing the flow of energy,

I have worked so hard on just relaxing the muscle deeply Its is not easy when you have all this tightness from all the blood pumped in. It was imparing to my skill thats all. I still get my workout in my martial arts I have come to the conclusion that My MA is enough of a workout Being 235lbs and 11 % body fat is what society wants, I Just want to be Healthy and practice Gong Fu!

[SevenStar]

blood pump? okay, we're making sense now... mass training can make you stiff, however, you still weren't that big, so it shouldn't have been an issue.

[7th gen yang]

blood pump? okay, we're making sense now... mass training can make you stiff, however, you still weren't that big, so it shouldn't have been an issue.

I am no ARNOLD by any means But I was big enough that I experience the problems I did. and had conflicts to my martial arts Training, I learned to make my body hard externally but Then I had to learn Internally all I can say is I dont regret any of my power lifting/bodybuilding days just I have found my way Internally
this is my path.

[Cezve]

My belly has been irritating me for a long time so I decided to start a fat loss diet. If I understand it right I may lose some muscle along the way ( I'm really afraid of this. Because I'm not a very built guy. ) and I should do weight lifting to prevent it. I plan on doing weight lifting 2 or 3 days a week.

I was worried if weight lifting would have any negative effect on MY performance in MA. So this post helped me in that way. Though I still got some questions.

What kind of exercises should I focus on?

And which is better for MA "low weight with high rep" exercise or the opposite ?

Wouldn't bodyweight exercise be enough?

[Cung-Fu]

Most people wouldn't "LOOSE" muscle just because they are on a fat lost diet, especially if you are still exercising. Muscle atrophy usually only happens to the sick or as an astronaut in space.


What kind of exercises should I focus on?

That would be highly individualized, and if you are weight training to improve performance it would depend on your particular style and your weakness.


Wouldn't bodyweight exercise be enough?

Depend on what you want and what is your goal and what phase of your training program you are at. Many atheletes would change their program depending on all those factors. Sometimes, you would use weights, sometimes bodyweight.


And which is better for MA "low weight with high rep" exercise or the opposite ?

This is a complex issue. You can't just have a generic formula for MA and just throw it out their and think it will benefit you. Some questions that should be brought up-

- what is the demand of your particular style? boxers (incl. kickboxing, muay thai...) tend to demand a high level of endurance, in addition to explosive power, speed, agility...olympic judokas matches are shorter, endurance would be less, but explosive power is more of an asset.

- what are your weakness that you have to work on? do you need power, endurance, raw strength, size...? In general, I think MA need a good combination of endurance, power, strength and agility. Unlike long distance runner (endurance), or sprinter (power) where focus is mainly one particular factor.

- what phase of your training program you are at? generally low weight high rep are good for endurance, do you need endurance? I think you do as a MA's. Complex sports such as MA, boxing, wrestling, hockey, basketball..., they would cycle their routine between many different variables in order to develop optimum fitness in all areas. But even endurance athletes would use high weights at certain times.

[russellsherry]

hi people, i would like to tell you about my guro in arnis, guro roland Dantes 8th dan in morden arnis, guro was a body builder of champion status he won
mr philipines a few times , and competede in mr olimpica a few time he was beaten, by some guy called arnorld l Lou ferrgieno the guy that played the hulk,
frank zane then came roland if you get the movie pumping iron on dvd, their is a sceane where a guy is punching a bag , when arnold is workng out thats guro dantes and for his age, he is 54 i have never seen anybody so quick peace russellsherry ps type in roland dantes arnis see what comes up

[SevenStar]

Most people wouldn't "LOOSE" muscle just because they are on a fat lost diet, especially if you are still exercising. Muscle atrophy usually only happens to the sick or as an astronaut in space.



That would be highly individualized, and if you are weight training to improve performance it would depend on your particular style and your weakness.



Depend on what you want and what is your goal and what phase of your training program you are at. Many atheletes would change their program depending on all those factors. Sometimes, you would use weights, sometimes bodyweight.



This is a complex issue. You can't just have a generic formula for MA and just throw it out their and think it will benefit you. Some questions that should be brought up-

- what is the demand of your particular style? boxers (incl. kickboxing, muay thai...) tend to demand a high level of endurance, in addition to explosive power, speed, agility...olympic judokas matches are shorter, endurance would be less, but explosive power is more of an asset.

- what are your weakness that you have to work on? do you need power, endurance, raw strength, size...? In general, I think MA need a good combination of endurance, power, strength and agility. Unlike long distance runner (endurance), or sprinter (power) where focus is mainly one particular factor.

- what phase of your training program you are at? generally low weight high rep are good for endurance, do you need endurance? I think you do as a MA's. Complex sports such as MA, boxing, wrestling, hockey, basketball..., they would cycle their routine between many different variables in order to develop optimum fitness in all areas. But even endurance athletes would use high weights at certain times.

good post.