The Inner Core of a Praying Mantis Boxer

[mantid1]

The Inner Core of the Praying Mantis Boxer


The Inner Core of a strong Boxer consists of these elements:

A: The Nervous System

B: Hardness

C: Irritability Threshold (Control)


A: The Nervous System

The nervous system in one of the most critical components in the core of a truly strong Boxer. It is the Boxers ability to perform in a conflict with a cool head and without nervousness, fear or flight.

B: Hardness

Hardness is the Boxers ability to recuperate from a conflict or to operate and recuperate after multiple attacks within one conflict.


C: Irritability Threshold (control)

The irritability threshold is the amount of psychological stress (not physical stress) the Boxer can withstand while keeping in control of his/her fight or flight instincts. He/she must be able to determine what is a real threat and what response is appropriate.

Conclusion:

Overall, you can teach a student fighting using the praying mantis system, but you must start with or develop a strong inner core if the Mantis Boxer is ever to become an accomplished boxer. This must be the starting point.

It is my experience as an instructor that it is the boxer with the strong inner core who becomes the champion.

A fighter with a weak Inner Core can be compared to a house with a weak foundation. The house with the weak foundation may look very pretty but when it is attacked with the full ferocity of a storm it will crumble and fall like the Boxer with the weak inner core

[Three Harmonies]

When speaking of hardness and recuperating.....are you talking mentaly or physically?
Tim always says that the very first thing a "fighter" needs, more important than technique and skill, is the mentality to fight. The desire to hurt the other person more, the want to scrap. Otherwise it is all a waste as they will get eaten up!

Cheers
Jake :cool:

[mantid1]

This is dealing more with the mental aspect of the fighter. I am sure you have had students come into your school who you knew just did not have the heart it takes to be a true fighter. This post kind of breaks down what the "mentality to fight" is. I agree with Tim if you do not have the mentality to fight it will be much harder if not impossble to become a top fighter.

This does not mean that the physical hardness is not important. This is one reason we train the push ups, it ups, iron body....etc. If you drop after one hit to the ribs you are done. I believe that mental and physical hardness work together in a fighter. I have some young ladies who fight the full contact and they may get physically hurt (not injured) but mentaly they will not stop. I also have a young guy who talks tough all the time but in every full contact fight he gets "hurt" and has to stop within 5 minutes.

I also believe that in order know if you or a student has the mentality to fight you have to fight full contact. Two person sets, hand drills and light contact are great training aids, but you will not find out if you have what it takes to be a fighter. Sure an instructor can slap the crap out of a lower level student in a two person form (especially if he/she knows the set better) but can that instructor stand up to someone knocking the crap out of them?

I think we have to understand that there are the people who want to become top fighters and the people who just want self defense. Then mental requirments may not be as important for the person who just want s to defend themselves just long enough to make the escape.

Thanks for your input 3

[lightnin]

While I do agree with the self defence aspect of your training,I believe that over a few years you may find something is missing in the training.
People will get board of the fighting aspect for one reason or another <like getting injured> will want to explore other challenges in their training.

Like forms training and competition. Has alot to offer.

A student will gain more knowledge plus character building along the way .
Especially horse stance training.
Sparring and self defence ability will come in time spent training.What about the 2 man mantis boxing sets?

Not to mention to be able to pass on the system to the students ,keeping the system alive .
Peace Lightnin...

[SevenStar]

How do those differ from any other style? this "inner core" applies to all MA...

[SevenStar]

While I do agree with the self defence aspect of your training,I believe that over a few years you may find something is missing in the training.
People will get board of the fighting aspect for one reason or another <like getting injured> will want to explore other challenges in their training.

Like forms training and competition. Has alot to offer.

not necessarily. I haven't gotten tired of it yet, and never will. This is something that varies from person to person.


A student will gain more knowledge plus character building along the way .
Especially horse stance training.

hard contact competition does this very well.

[mantid1]

I agree with you 100% lightnin.

But this excert from the manual is dealing mainly with the Mantis boxer who is training to become a fighter. It basically states that to become a high level fighter that you have to have this type of mentality to survive.

This is a loose translation and does not reflect my opinion on this 100% but I do feel it is close.

I agree that passing on the system through forms, two man sets...etc is very imoportant. But if the student never tests themselves they will not know what will happen in a real situation. I feel that the full contact fighting is the only way to discover this.

Do you have to fight full contact to study mantis? N0. Only about 10% of my students will fight that way. I dont do it anymore either. I run a full time school and cant afford taking the chance of being injured. At my advanced age it is easier for me to become injured.

To be honest I no longer pocess the traits mentioned. I wonder how many of the instructors out there do.

[SevenStar]

When speaking of hardness and recuperating.....are you talking mentaly or physically?
Tim always says that the very first thing a "fighter" needs, more important than technique and skill, is the mentality to fight. The desire to hurt the other person more, the want to scrap. Otherwise it is all a waste as they will get eaten up!

Cheers
Jake :cool:


they are both important, but I would put skill first. To quote morgan freeman in "million dollar baby":

"show me a fighter who is all heart and no skill, and I will show you a fighter who is eager to get his arse kicked"

[Three Harmonies]

I can have all the skill in the world, but no desire to engage, and it don't mean ****. I am sure all of us have had an adrenaline high sometime in our life. How much of that instance can you remember (regardless of how many years ago)? Not much detail eh? That is because our concious mind bleeps out, and we enter the more primitive aspects of our brain. My point in a nutshell is that you have to train at this level to be able to perform (peak) at this level. To train at this level, you really have to want to. Hence the mentality.
To answer the other question Mantid.... I train just below full contact. I cannot afford any injuries to my arms or hands since I am a bodyworker either. I have also had too many concussions, and do not desire more. But then again I am not totally into fighting either. I hate to hurt others.
We do tons of throws and takedowns though, and those kick the **** out of you just as much as punches if not more. So in that respect we often play full contact.


Jake :cool:

[mantid1]

I see it as fighting/self defense as just a self preservation method. With this in mind I train the qigong, and mantis to keep my body as healthy as possible. After all, physical and mental illness are the true threats to us all. I see it as that is what I fight my battle against every day as I pound out the forms on stand in a horse stance.

I dont train to fight the stranger lurking around the corner that will probably never appear, I focus on the most probable threat.

I agree. You must train at that level in order to know what you will do at that level. I dont know if you have ever been in the military but this is similar to what they start doing the moment you arrive at basic.

The translation just seems to be talking about the people who plan on using the Mantis for its martial value for what ever reason.

I think that these core concepts can transfer over to other aspects of life it does not have to be fighting.

I value the grappling as well. I have been taught that taking the falls during grappling practice is some of the best iron body you can get. I have to agree.

I have even had students who have not had enough of the "core concepts" to handle the falls during grappling. I am sure they will do great when they take their first hit in a fight. :)

[Three Harmonies]

Good stuff Mantid1!!
Jake :cool:

[mantis108]

Thanks for sharing Mantid1. :)

I think the first part addresses the Adrenaline effects which can be drilled by realistic senarios. The second part is where impact training kicks in IMHO. The final part has to do with how much confidence one have of his techniques so that he or she can launch a disciplined attack or defense without second guessing. So this can be drilled by sparring/rolling.

Personally, I don't think training self defense needed to be all Gung Ho and militaristic. I think we can achieve that with play and games as well. This way people of all ages and all walks of life can enjoy it. After all in this day and age, self defense should be made available for everyone. I think that's a better motivation than setting a goal to rip a person's guts out while "defending" youself. ;)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantid1]

I agree Mr. 108. Self defense should be available for eveyone. Yes, it should be enjoyable. It is also good business. If you are trying to run a full time school it would be impossible to pay the rent being to "gung ho".


Like I said only a small percentage of my students want to fight the full contact, and the fighting in my school would be considered mild compared to many of the "Fighting schools"

But if someone is in a career that they may need to fight or defend themselves on a daily basis they should focus on being a little more hard core.

I feel a good instructor will be able to manitain a balance so that the fighters AND self defense people can get what they want.

I think that some are born with these core concepts and some are not. This mental attidtude can be developed to a certain point through training.

My son started fighting the full contact sanshou when he was almost 7 (we do not do head contact at this age). He doesnt have the heart naturally. But after the last two years of fighting kids 1 to 2 years older than him he is getting much more nerve and can hang in there much better. I noticed yestersday that he is taking the fight to them now. They knock him back but he just regroups and goes for it again.

[mantis108]

I hear you and congrats on your son's progress. I used to avoid taking kids but then I end up having 3 - 4 kids (can't refuse the parents' plead) who have now become teenages . I must say that seeing progress in them is really the biggest reward of all and does bring a lot of joy to their parents and me. Also if you can turn a totally discipline challenged kid into someone who would follow your instructions and commands to the T, that is better than gold especially when this is done without disciplining him.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[lightnin]

I must admit that it is refreshing to hear that there are active mantis practitioners out there who want to gain sparring experience .More power to you !!.
I hope some day you can inspire a student to go as far as the UFC.
It sure would be nice to see a mantis KF represented in such sports.
I hope at least there could be some core techniques there to be noticed is all.
Maybe even getting involved in NORBA,or some lower form of UFC to even gain some notoriety.
All the best :)
Lightnin.
____________________
When all fails take the knee !!..
The more you learn,the less you know...

[mantid1]

Lightnin

Yes I think that the actual fighting could be a part of martial arts training :)

As I have said above my students are not at the level of most "fighting schools".

As I have said the "innere Core" can apply to more than just the fighting aspect. A student has to be willing to do the physical training to become a top level fighter. This includes the daily run, push ups, sit ups and the other grueling training that goes along with fighting. This takes a strong "Inner Core".

Many of my students have jobs that they can not go into work looking like they have been in a bar fight. I have to hand it to them, they will still get in there and take the shots.

I dont think that I have the experience to take my students to the "top level of a fighter". I may be able to get them ready for someone else. My hope would be that my son would be able to take the fighters to that level when he comes of age. At 9 he probably has more ring time than most of the mantis instructors on the forum.

Have a good day

[Oso]

You have to ask yourself what SD really is.

My answer is that SD is all the stuff that you can do to avoid or evade a physical confrontation. Yes, these aspects of SD can be taught strictly in a lecture mode or with games and can be accesible to everyone.

Once the confrontation turns physical then it's a fight. I think the biggest fallacy out there is all the stinkin SD seminars that teach people ridiculous little tricks against unresisting opponents and leave people with a false sense of confidence in their 'skills'. 'SD' should not be done lightly because that would be mugger or rapist is not going to be going lightly but as hard as they can go to achieve their goal.

"Self Defense'' is the BIG LIE of the commercial martial arts world.

[shirkers1]

Lightnin



Many of my students have jobs that they can not go into work looking like they have been in a bar fight. I have to hand it to them, they will still get in there and take the shots.

I dont think that I have the experience to take my students to the "top level of a fighter". I may be able to get them ready for someone else. My hope would be that my son would be able to take the fighters to that level when he comes of age. At 9 he probably has more ring time than most of the mantis instructors on the forum.



Every thing that has been said in this thread is pretty much on point IMO and it's nice to see that it's written in an actual mantis manual. I also agree that some people have a knack for having those skills without being taught them. I was never sat down and said "okay, this is from a praying mantis manual this is what you need to do". I personally figured it out over time and through experience on my own. Ring time is better than no time, to prepare for self defense (stamina, jitters, etc). Street time is better than ring time for all around actual fighting (mental, physical, etc). So the guy who at least does sport fighting will have a slight physical and mental edge over the average guy in a street fight.. But there are always exceptions. ;)

But it sounds to me like you doubt the validity of the "majority of instructors" on this forum as to their fighting ability. Why is that? How many of the instructers on this forum have you worked out with? Reminds me of another cat who use to post on here giving great info but always having a dig in there some where..

[rlmartin]

i have a question about praying mantis. can you help me...

[mantid1]

Hi Shirkers!

Take two people who are equal in height, weight, technical skills and are the same when it comes to the "inner core". They both practice forms, two person drills, basics and hit the bag for 3 hours a day.

The only difference is the one of the the guys decides to spend an extra 3 hours a week doing the full contact training. This includes taking shots to the legs, body, throwing and taking throws......etc. But, the other guy decides to do forms and two person sets for an extra 3 hours a week. This happens for two years.

I think that most instructors on this forum will agree that the person who spends the extra time fighting will come out ahead in an actual fight between the two. It would be hard to prove this point wrong. In fact I see it happen in my classes.

From looking at previous posts it is easy to conclude that most people do not do the full contact fighting. ***** slapping around does not count. I have taught many people over the past 15 years and I feel that I am able to see what makes my students better fighters. maybe I am not a good teacher, so that throws that theory out the window :)

In fact I do not do much of the full contract training anymore. But in my defense I doubt that many of the top rated boxers trainers step in the ring with thier young fighters either.

I am not saying the instructors are bad fighters, but if they did or have done the full contact they would be better fighters.

Many people on this forum do know who I am, they just realize that I am a serious Maritil Artist that runs a full time school. They also realize the last thing I need is someone shooting off negative comments about me using my name. This is how I feed my children. I thank them for showing me that respect.

I am sorry I havnt seen the reason to trust you with this informantion. I am sure you are a great guy. Nothing personal. I am sure you could care less anyway.

rlmantin

What was your question?

[shirkers1]

Hi Shirkers!

Take two people who are equal in height, weight, technical skills and are the same when it comes to the "inner core". They both practice forms, two person drills, basics and hit the bag for 3 hours a day.

The only difference is the one of the the guys decides to spend an extra 3 hours a week doing the full contact training. This includes taking shots to the legs, body, throwing and taking throws......etc. But, the other guy decides to do forms and two person sets for an extra 3 hours a week. This happens for two years.

I think that most instructors on this forum will agree that the person who spends the extra time fighting will come out ahead in an actual fight between the two. It would be hard to prove this point wrong. In fact I see it happen in my classes.

From looking at previous posts it is easy to conclude that most people do not do the full contact fighting. ***** slapping around does not count. I have taught many people over the past 15 years and I feel that I am able to see what makes my students better fighters. maybe I am not a good teacher, so that throws that theory out the window :)

Many people on this forum do know who I am, they just realize that I am a serious Maritil Artist that runs a full time school. They also realize the last thing I need is someone shooting off negative comments about me using my name. This is how I feed my children. I thank them for showing me that respect.

I am sorry I havnt seen the reason to trust you with this informantion. I am sure you are a great guy. Nothing personal. I am sure you could care less anyway.




Once again I totally agree with what you said before. If there was a bandwagon of mantis fighting theory I would be on it I swear! :D

I'm not saying you have the skills or not, and I'm not trying to put you down in any way.. I know you don't want your name out there so I haven't used it either. I respect that, and I'm fine with it. We covered that in our pm's... :D I just noticed a slight down talk to "instructors" on this forum and wondered if you had first hand experience with them to make that judgement that's all. It's not an attack just a question to better understand the all around situation of what you're saying.

I personally haven't met a lot of the guys on here, I've met a few and the one's I have met I've never seen fight and vice versa. What they do is what they do and that's fine with me whether good or bad in my eyes, I worry about what I do and throw out my opinions based on myself. I've never said "so and so isn't a skilled fighter" everything is based on myself.... Take it for what it's worth, listen and throw it away or take something from it that's up to the reader....

Once again, thanks for putting up the info from the manual. It's great to see someone putting up official info again on this forum. I've been saying the same things that were posted here for a while now in different posts and it always gets over looked because of how I come across in written form and I don't say "these comments are from a mantis manual"... but oh well that's life in the big city.

[mantid1]

I have not seen any of the practitioners here fight either. I have seen a couple demonstrating. They seem very good. I just judge by what they teach and how they teach it. You sound like you have enough experience you can do the same. I am sure most are great fighters and can probably kick my arse.

I think you can develop these core concepts into a student. On other hand I think you can lose it also and I probably fall into that catagory.

I dont get a chance to fight much anymore. One reason is I have trained some students for many years. IMO they than probably take the fight to me now and I do not think that is a good thing to happen between the student and teacher. I am not afraid to admit this. If you train a student for years and they can not give you one hell of a fight you are not doing your job as a teacher or you are holding back. Neither is acceptable. So I just try not to let ego rule me and train the student to their full potential. That is my responsiblity as a teacher.


Like I said in the PM's. Just let me know when you are in the area. You will be welcome at my school anytime.

Thanks for the imput.

[shirkers1]

I have not seen any of the practitioners here fight either. I have seen a couple demonstrating. They seem very good. I just judge by what they teach and how they teach it. You sound like you have enough experience you can do the same. I am sure most are great fighters and can probably kick my arse.

I think you can develop these core concepts into a student. On other hand I think you can lose it also and I probably fall into that catagory.

I dont get a chance to fight much anymore. One reason is I have trained some students for many years. IMO they than probably take the fight to me now and I do not think that is a good thing to happen between the student and teacher. I am not afraid to admit this. If you train a student for years and they can not give you one hell of a fight you are not doing your job as a teacher or you are holding back. Neither is acceptable. So I just try not to let ego rule me and train the student to their full potential. That is my responsiblity as a teacher.


Like I said in the PM's. Just let me know when you are in the area. You will be welcome at my school anytime.

Thanks for the imput.

Great point about letting your students grow even beyond your own skills. I know this topic was touched apon in other posts, and I think having the mindset that no one knows it all and you can learn from even the basic of students helps in this development for all involved. :)

I look at it like this, on any given day you can win or lose so why worry about it... If you have to take it to them (who ever it may be) then do it and don't worry about who is better period. Because the better fighter doesn't always win. :)

I was hoping to come home for Jakes' seminar at Mike's place but it's not going to happen because of time off from work and other trips planned already. But I'll make it back sometime. Looking forward to meeting you, as long as you promise to keep that dog tied up... I'm allergic... :D

[mantid1]

Allergies arnt what you have to worry about :)

Have a good one

[shirkers1]

I didn't say what I was allergic too... ;)

I was talking about being allergic to my ass being treated like a chew toy. :D

[SevenStar]

I can have all the skill in the world, but no desire to engage, and it don't mean ****. I am sure all of us have had an adrenaline high sometime in our life. How much of that instance can you remember (regardless of how many years ago)? Not much detail eh? That is because our concious mind bleeps out, and we enter the more primitive aspects of our brain. My point in a nutshell is that you have to train at this level to be able to perform (peak) at this level. To train at this level, you really have to want to. Hence the mentality.



mentality is something that can be trained, just like skill. you don't necessarily have to want to train at that level - you only have to do it. Most of our guys compete. There are several who don't, but we don't change the class for them, so they train as if they are fighters. Heart is something that can definitely be instilled in a person.

[SevenStar]

You have to ask yourself what SD really is.

My answer is that SD is all the stuff that you can do to avoid or evade a physical confrontation. Yes, these aspects of SD can be taught strictly in a lecture mode or with games and can be accesible to everyone.

Once the confrontation turns physical then it's a fight. I think the biggest fallacy out there is all the stinkin SD seminars that teach people ridiculous little tricks against unresisting opponents and leave people with a false sense of confidence in their 'skills'. 'SD' should not be done lightly because that would be mugger or rapist is not going to be going lightly but as hard as they can go to achieve their goal.

"Self Defense'' is the BIG LIE of the commercial martial arts world.


great post - I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. This is the reason I think "self defense seminars" a joke. When I have given seminars on self defense, I spent less time on technique training and more time on awareness - you're not going to teach them any technique in one day that they will likely use in a self defense situation - they have to be trained. The seminar time is better spent, IMO, educating them about awareness and good safety practice.

[SevenStar]

I dont get a chance to fight much anymore. One reason is I have trained some students for many years. IMO they than probably take the fight to me now and I do not think that is a good thing to happen between the student and teacher. I am not afraid to admit this. If you train a student for years and they can not give you one hell of a fight you are not doing your job as a teacher or you are holding back. Neither is acceptable. So I just try not to let ego rule me and train the student to their full potential. That is my responsiblity as a teacher.


I agree. However, training them does not mean that you cannot also train yourself still. you can put your all into both them and yourself. Coincidentally, you can look for an article about this in a future issue of kf magazine.


EDIT: i just re-read that - are you saying that you don't fight anymore because some of your students can keep up with you now? Why do you think this isn't a good thing between student and teacher?

[mantis108]

Well, it just so happened that Liang Xuexiang wroted a manuscript dated 1852 CE. The title is "On Making it Possible to have Combat Courage" (Ke Shi You Yong). BTW, this is the translation by Ilya Profatilov.

So we can see that Combat Courage is definitely a "traditional" focal point of Mantis training from a Greater Meihwa Lines perspective.

BTW, I also totally agreed with Oso.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[shirkers1]

great post - I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. This is the reason I think "self defense seminars" a joke. When I have given seminars on self defense, I spent less time on technique training and more time on awareness - you're not going to teach them any technique in one day that they will likely use in a self defense situation - they have to be trained. The seminar time is better spent, IMO, educating them about awareness and good safety practice.



Loosing consciousness… fading fast… feeling weak… going to vomit… must.. get out… hell has frozen …. Overrr…. :eek: :D


I completely and 100% agree with 7 star on this and that bugs me to no end when you see these people attending these classes where they “teach” you tactics to protect yourself in a fight… They even have them here at my work and I’m constantly bugging the security staff to get rid of the class or edit it somehow… But the guy has a 3rd degree black belt and a certificate that says he can teach you to defend your self against an attacker from this one seminar… So it's okay I guess for him to milk the company for hundreds of dollars for a false sense of security. :rolleyes:

[lightnin]

I agree on earlier posts my friends .

Mantid, I think it is a good plan.

If you take on a coach or accomplished champion from the ring.

With his influence may bring great results !.We have done this with a few exceptions,and it worked out great for the students.

But a precedent has to be set ,that no changes to the art is made ,and total respect for the art from the champion is recognized.
It could be posed as a challenge to him or her to make a champion,and promote the art.
Besides of all the basic techniques from sparring ,why not ad a few chin na or mantis teachniques.Ultimately the competitor will have more options to use.
peace :)
Lightnin...
___________________
The more you learn, the less you know...

[mantid1]

I dont teach self defense classes either. If I did it would be "situational awarness". I think that may be a new word.

I have been toying with the idea of womens self defense class. $99.95 for a six week course once a week. It would be a money maker. Then give them a can of pepper spray on the last day :)

I see self defense as more like being able to do enough to get away with your life, not sustaining a full blown fight.

Mr. 108

Could you post the manual translation that you told us about? Or is it secret :)

Thanks

[Oso]

I'm getting ready to give my first SD seminar.

A bunch of dental assistants. ;)

Working on my verbal now, hopefully have it finished by the end of the weekend.

Basic outline with be 30 minutes lecture on awareness.

I plan on teaching one escape each from bear hug from behind, bear hug from front, choke from behind and choke from the front. I will be attempting to work 15-20 minutes on each technique or a minimum of 20 reps each escape each person. The plan is to keep is simple. Wrap up with a 10 or 15 minute recap of awareness.
Elapsed time: 3 hours. Cost: $20 per person.

I've talked to the woman in charge and basically layed out my approach and we are talking about doing a monthly series with this first one as more of an intro and trust builder between the group and myself. I've let her know that if her group of women are truly interested in learning "self defense moves" then they have to be willing to get sweaty and there is a possibility of bruising of the arms and such. She says her gals are willing.

I've never done this outside of the class. We'll see.

[mantid1]

I am sure you are doing this to help the people first and formost. If you are doing it to make money I can give you a tip that may get some more people.

What do you think about doing one free womens self defense class and telling your local newspaper about it. Most will do a write up on it and give you all kinds of good publicity. It will help you get your name out to the masses and you will probably get a couple of sign ups out of it.

I am going to train one of my female instructors to teach the womens self defense classes. Women will be more at ease hearing certain things from another women.

Dont fortget to invite a local police person to give a little talk. They will give great info withs stats and it will help you eat up 15 minutes or so with quality material.

Mybe you should describe what the inner core of a mantis boxer is. If they dont have what it takes to fight their life they may be in trouble :)

[SevenStar]

I'm getting ready to give my first SD seminar.

A bunch of dental assistants. ;)

Working on my verbal now, hopefully have it finished by the end of the weekend.

Basic outline with be 30 minutes lecture on awareness.

I plan on teaching one escape each from bear hug from behind, bear hug from front, choke from behind and choke from the front. I will be attempting to work 15-20 minutes on each technique or a minimum of 20 reps each escape each person. The plan is to keep is simple. Wrap up with a 10 or 15 minute recap of awareness.
Elapsed time: 3 hours. Cost: $20 per person.

I've talked to the woman in charge and basically layed out my approach and we are talking about doing a monthly series with this first one as more of an intro and trust builder between the group and myself. I've let her know that if her group of women are truly interested in learning "self defense moves" then they have to be willing to get sweaty and there is a possibility of bruising of the arms and such. She says her gals are willing.

I've never done this outside of the class. We'll see.

dentists have access to drills, needles and all sorts of other nasty stuff - have them make utility belts and carry their equipment on it.

[mantis108]

That's as far as I can gather from what's available by Ilya. He might be the only one in the west who has read it. I think many would feel that should be kept as a secret. If I have it, I would have translated the whole thing into English. A lot of the stuff are Tanglang lingo, no outsider would easily understand anyway. So...

Oso, check out this article from cyberkwoon:

Women Self Defense Article (http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/kb.php?mode=article&k=281)

I think Mantid1's advice on marketing the SD class is great. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantid1]

Mr. 108

The stuff from the other manual may be more in depth than what I posted but I cant see anything that should be a "secret" Maybe a feeling of control or power?

Anyway, I know you are a giving soul and you would share it if you had it. It would be nice to see another work about this subject dealing with mantis. IMO I think these ideas are just basic anyway, nothing I have not thought of before. Most of it crosses over into other styles or even different things that are not Martial Arts.

Thanks

[Oso]

well, my eventual goal would be to help them.

the first goal is to change their perception of what they think SD is. Then they have to decide they want to do what it takes to be able to attempt to defend themselves with physical techniques.

hell, the bottom line is still 'who's better at fighting'

the one advantage they may have is a surprise first move that can instill some sort of fear in the attacker. unless they can make the attacker fear for their own safety very quickly then it really does become a fight and the better fighter will win.
Given that size and strength totally matter in a fight the average 5'3" woman who sits on a dental stool is not going to win any encounter with any average 5'8'' male.

I don't think I'm going to be succesful because the truth is to fight and win you have to train. I have a hard time wrangling around that truth. But, I'm going to make an attempt at saying what i believe to a paying audience and see what happens.

IF my perception is at all accurate then maybe they will be better off...IF they want to sweat...IF they don't mind getting some bruises in the process...


as far as marketing goes...I live in a community of 275,000+ with 30+ martial arts schools. One of them (my jujitsu teacher) has been around for 20 years and has the SD market mostly cornered as well as "Cop Shop" classes for both the city and county forces.

I'm content with getting an opportinuty to teach an SD class the way I feel it should be done.

I've been exposed extensively to two decent SD programs. But, they still both pitch the idea that you can learn some 'moves' that will work for you after just one day of training....because this is what people want to hear.

so, really, my biggest self promotional hope is that I maybe score a couple of kids for my youth class.

thanks for the advice.

[-N-]

I plan on teaching one escape each from bear hug from behind, bear hug from front, choke from behind and choke from the front.Are these the most important attacks that the women should prepare for?

I remember reading about one type of attacker that prefers to blitz the victim with a tackle from behind and follow up with beating the victim's face until she gives up. If situational awareness hasn't prevented this, then what?

I'm asking because I don't know.

N.

[Oso]

-N-: No, i'm not trying to say that. I feel they are sort of what they might expect to be attacked with.

As I said, I'm prepping them for a longer commitment. This first event will not have any contact from the attackers but grabbing. Later, once they are more comfortable we will explore other attacks/defences.


I remember reading about one type of attacker that prefers to blitz the victim with a tackle from behind and follow up with beating the victim's face until she gives up. If situational awareness hasn't prevented this, then what?

She's screwed. She got stunned enough by the initial attack that all of his follow up attacks scored.

Situational awareness is SD. Everything else is fighting.

Normal human beings basically have to rely on the good nature of their fellows to not be beaten, raped or whatever. This reliance is the only real point of a benevolent society.

[mantid1]

N

I would say after the face beating, screaming and begging for mercy would be the best bet. I know that is what I would do.

[Oso]

N

I would say after the face beating, screaming and begging for mercy would be the best bet. I know that is what I would do.

nooooo...you can't give up...that's what this thread is about...mindset...never give up.

but, the question is how do you get someone who genuinely wants to learn how to defend themselves to practice so that they can?

for us the tenacity and ferociousness of the mantis is what we wish to emulate.

but what about the person who doesn't have an interest in even a hobby level of 2 days a week?

or in this case, women of the more country sort whose husbands probably wouldn't let them go train kung fu/karate/whatever but have a desire to feel confident walking down the street.

[SevenStar]

Are these the most important attacks that the women should prepare for?

I remember reading about one type of attacker that prefers to blitz the victim with a tackle from behind and follow up with beating the victim's face until she gives up. If situational awareness hasn't prevented this, then what?

I'm asking because I don't know.

N.

coincidentally, when we gave a seminar at a local women's gym, we did go over scenarios after the awareness portion - we coverd exactly what oso covered - and also introduced them to the guard. We emphasized that if they begin training, it could be beneficial for them to train that range, as some men would take them down for various reasons - specifically rape.

[mantid1]

oso

I agree.

That is one reason I want one of my female instructors to teach the classes. They will be able to speak more openly to another women, escpecialy around the country women you are talking about.

Pictures of women who have been abucted, raped and murdered could help motivate what it takes to develop the Inner Core.

There are certain things to do if you cannot fight your way out of the rape situation from the beginning. Things they could do while the rape is taking place. A woman can talk to a woman a little easier about these things.

[Oso]

seven, the guard will be later...I only have one female student who halfway knows what the guard is now and she's not very active at the moment. I guess I feel this should maybe first be approached by another woman for obvious reasons...but I do feel that if the women are serious then they should put aside issues like that to learn...but I know it's not easy.


mantid1, I dunno about pics like that...I just saw a guy give a SD seminar to the seniors at the school i work at and he used that sort of scare tactic and it didn't sit well with me.

I will teach this with at least one femle assistant...probably more as my school is about 6 women/8 men...with 3 of the men being older teens....hell, on any given night I have more women then men in class because my women are more commited...but on a side note that could be one reason none of the 5 guys who've visited in the last 4 weeks have come back...

anyway, some of my best compliments over the last 10 years of teaching have been from women who have appreciated the fact that I don't treat them any different from the men...anyway...my whole point is to try and teach this class no different from how i teach my normal students.

i hear and agree with you on the dirty tricks, but that's not really something for the first day.

[mantis108]

I plan on teaching one escape each from bear hug from behind, bear hug from front, choke from behind and choke from the front. I will be attempting to work 15-20 minutes on each technique or a minimum of 20 reps each escape each person. The plan is to keep is simple. Wrap up with a 10 or 15 minute recap of awareness.
Elapsed time: 3 hours. Cost: $20 per person.

I think this is an excellent idea. This is simple yet the implications are enormous. First and foremostl this is still in keeping with the awareness theme. This is also great introduction to techniques and concepts.

I believe we should look at women self defense (WSD) in 2 separated yet related aspects. One is physical abuse (ie wife beating husbands, boyfriends, stalker, etc...). The other is rape.

"Traditionally" in the east a lot of the MA came from the angle of the abuse which could quite often precede rape that is more or less about excerting power and control upon the victim. This is why a lot of focus on strike oriented techniques to deal with physical abuse. In today's western society, we have more concerns with rape more or less due to the pop culture marketing sex as a form of empowerment. So we would automatically assume for the worst in a WSD program. But this is not a bad idea to prepare for the worst possible outcome.

Bear hugs are a great way to introduce some of the most common and effective clinches, which translate into total control of the body, that could be used by the assailant. Chokes are also great for triggering panic which can not be "simulated" except by actually induce it. The sense of helplessness and panic as concepts or rather percepts must be felt in order for awareness to be meaningful. So I would think that Oso's program has great protential there.

I would say that introducing 2 to 3 simple and related escapes would be a more prudent measure ( I know there is a class time concern but this is rather important). I also think that here we could introduce a couple of "dirty tricks" for emergency. I believe Sevenstar's suggest of the guard is also good especially when it come to the second aspect - rape. I also believe that a simple and effective exist strategy (ie ground kicks, get up and run) should be introduced.

It is important IMHO to let the women know that it is perfectly okay not to be the heroine and unleash vengeance on behalf of her fellow gender. Avoidance and flight are not shameful actions. Safety is the priority. It is also important for the women, who attend the program, to know that by attending they are forming a resource center or network for crisis management. If we really are trying to help them, they will need to be reassured that we or most of the class will be there for them if and when the time comes.

I think if we address what is really needed, those who benefited from the program will promote it by word of mouth. Personally, that's the best marketing there is. Who knows some of them might even be inspired enough to join the regular MA classes.

Mantis108

[Sifu Darkfist]

It seems that the Historical significance of Tang Lang is easily overlooked by even the best purveyors of one of the most deadly and certainly most feared of martial arts. Here is a style favored by villians throughout Shandong simply becasue this style is in no way a form of "boxing". In fact i get chills every time i hear the words used together. At any rate, at least as far as the northern schools and particularly Wu Tang is concerned this is a style of finality. Offensive in nature relentless in resolve, Tang Lang is best used by those that feel it is their god (god in the rehtorical sense) given right to prevail on the battlefield (battlefield in the rehtorical sense other than those of us who have faced multiple, real encounters). In this i mean a real student of mantis will continue the initial attack until the conflict is completed regardless of outcome. Make no mistake he outcome is always unknown in real confrontations. The most Skilled master can fall prey to the perfect strike graced by the elements of physics and the free radicals that surround all combat from its simplest to its most complex form.
The Core of the Mantis combatant is the desire to survive and the ability to forge his physical being in compliance with his will and his autonomic response (the original authors referal to the central nervous system. of course this is far from a complete description of the combatants core; however, it does show the tip of the complexity involved in a game of life and death or grave injury.

[SevenStar]

I don't see how such a definition doesn't apply to all MA...

[Sifu Darkfist]

exactly i never said the definition doesnt apply to all arts i am bit confused as to the reason for such a reply?

[shirkers1]

sifu darkfist... just let it go... no matter what you say you will be wrong in 7*'s eyes.

[Sifu Darkfist]

thank you i tend to spend extra time on debate due to my studies in history.
you are a wind from the fresh air in the the north

[SevenStar]

sifu darkfist... just let it go... no matter what you say you will be wrong in 7*'s eyes.


nah, only what you say, bro. :)

my reply isn't necessarily directly to him, but to this thread and others like it. "the inner core of a preying mantis boxer"... but nothing mentioned here is unique to mantis.

[shirkers1]

nah, only what you say, bro. :)

my reply isn't necessarily directly to him, but to this thread and others like it. "the inner core of a preying mantis boxer"... but nothing mentioned here is unique to mantis.


:D That's cool I'm use to it... I didn't want you to scare off the new blood though. ;)

[mantisman21]

the inner core of a mantis fighter relies on the understanding of mantis princples and techniques