Butterfly Swords

[LC-NYC]

Does anyone know where would be the best place to purchase these knives from? I'm looking for something that's really good, authentic, etc. Something you would purchase! Not a cheap imitation or junk! Thanks for the Help! :D

[teazer]

http://www2.rpa.net/~artmasters/

[Vyvial]

teazer is right....

best I've seen

[marcoma]

Hi everyone, my sifu has told me to buy a pair of butterfly knives so he can start to teach me the knives form.

I can't seem to find anywhere that sells them! I live in London, does anyone know where I can buy a pair?

Many thanks

Marco

[chi sau]

try shaolin way in newport street i think
i bought mine from there very cheap
good luck
later

[Neurotic]

this is where i ask a really stupid question -

knives, or swords?

knives - no idea, they are not legal in my country.

swords - I have a pair of the tigerclaw ones, I love em.

Neurotic

[Mckind13]

HI

I believe they are called knives because of their size/shape (single edge).
In Chinese I think what we call knives are called daggers (usually have two edges).

David

[PHILBERT]

Please excuse me while I do an impression of Gene Ching here :D

Butterfly swords/knives for sale. (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/45-69l.html)

Purchasing from there also supports the forums. And a good currency converter can be found here

http://www.oanda.com/convert/classic

[TjD]

why not ask your sifu? he must have gotten his knives somewhere. he might even be able to get you a good deal.

i dono where my sifu got my knives, but they're **** nice :D

[kj]

Originally posted by TjD
why not ask your sifu? he must have gotten his knives somewhere. he might even be able to get you a good deal.

i dono where my sifu got my knives, but they're **** nice :D

If you train with Russell, there's a good chance he got them from World Class Craftsmen. The particular style they manufactured were based on specs by Ip Ching. I think it's been some years since they manufactured them though. Too bad, best quality craftsmanship I've seen. I had hoped they would eventually manufacture them in the other common style as well (the pointier version), but not holding my breath.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[danny james]

I got mine from the www.qimagazine.com.
They are very good quality,Michael Tse ships them over from China.I paid around £100 for them a year ago.
I"me not sure if he still has any.
Contact the Tse Qigong Centre on 0161 929 4485

[tparkerkfo]

As your in London, I wouldn't know where to get them or what the shipping issues are. There are plenty of places in the states to buy them if need be. I would imagine that the UK has many as well.

There seems to be a few different types of butterfly knives. The typical southern type are large and seem to be used for a lot of slicing motions. These are the typical ones you see in magizines. Leung Ting was the first person that I was aware of that pointed out that wing chun used different types. He has a much smaller and narrower one that is better used for stabbing. So, just to be sure, I would ask your sifu before you spent any money to make sure you got a set that is compatible for you. I have been told that the length is also important and is relavant to the individual.

Wing Lam at www.wle.com makes some slick looking weapons custom made. As he is a martial artist, I would trust that he understands a bit about the nature of what he is making. He does carry several types of butterfly knives from the cheap ones to much better quality to custom made. The custome made ones are quite expensive and I would only reccomend them to the very serious practioner who has some bucks. LOL. But they are nice.

Also, any one know what Yip Man's knives looked like? I wonder if there are photos at either the Yip Man Tong or VTM that show his knives. Any one know where he got them?

Tom
________
FREE KMART GIFT CARDS (http://bestfreegiftcard.com/kmart-gift-cards/)

[marcoma]

How can I tell a 'good' pair of knives from a 'bad' pair. As I havent yet had any experience of learning the knife form I don't know what I should look for.

Do they all come in the same size/dimensions?


Marco

[TjD]

Originally posted by kj


If you train with Russell, there's a good chance he got them from World Class Craftsmen. The particular style they manufactured were based on specs by Ip Ching. I think it's been some years since they manufactured them though. Too bad, best quality craftsmanship I've seen. I had hoped they would eventually manufacture them in the other common style as well (the pointier version), but not holding my breath.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

yes i do train with him. (i try not to mention it because i dont want my beginners opinions reflecting on his ability or our school - politics are bad :D ). He ordered a couple pairs of knives last year, and they look the same as the ones our older students have... so perhaps they still are making them?

[Wilson]

Anyone have any good information or resources to share that talk about the history of the use of butterfly swords in Wing Chun (or other arts that use this style of weapon). In particular, traditional training methods, the development of their shape/size, their use on the battlefield, the mindset behind using(or training) them, etc.? Were they ever trained with one sword, or a sword/short knife combo, or any other combos?

Again, just looking for some input for resources on the history of their use and development. Not really looking for pictures on how to do forms, more the story line behind this Wing Chun weapon.

Thanks for the help.

Wilson

[marcus_pasram]

Hi Wilson,

SiFu Duncan Leung had answered one or two questions about knives on his discussion board (http://www.wingchunkungfu.cn/mb) He is very straight forward and speaks honestly about sincere Wing Chun queries.

Best wishes,
/Marcus

[Yaksha]

http://www.cheungswingchun.ashop.com.au/g/937/butterfly-swords.html

Scroll down to the bottom

[martyg]

Here's another interesting article by Hendrik that touches on the historical significance of the knives in our system -

Shanghai Connection (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=67)

[Yaksha]

Wow, that is an awesome article!

I heard or read somewhere that one version of the butterfly swords had blades that were only sharpened on one side so the blades fit together to form one edge (cross section like this: /||\. ) So they could be drawn and used as one sword and then seperated for emergency fantangle . Has anyone else heard of this?

[martyg]

Yes, amazing how Hendrik can write coherent and concise thoughts when he wants to. Eh? ;)


Wow, that is an awesome article!

I heard or read somewhere that one version of the butterfly swords had blades that were only sharpened on one side so the blades fit together to form one edge (cross section like this: /||\. ) So they could be drawn and used as one sword and then seperated for emergency fantangle . Has anyone else heard of this?

[Tom Kagan]

Wow, that is an awesome article!

I heard or read somewhere that one version of the butterfly swords had blades that were only sharpened on one side so the blades fit together to form one edge (cross section like this: /||\. ) So they could be drawn and used as one sword and then seperated for emergency fantangle . Has anyone else heard of this?


You are referring to a type of blade edge known as a single bevel. It's really good for mincing and whittling. A double bevel is better for chopping and slicing, and just about everything else except for preparing sushi.

A matched set of knifes or swords sharpened with opposite single bevels can never be used as one with any greater effectiveness than a similarly matched set sharpened with double bevels. Regardless of the tang configuration and handle shape, tolerances will not allow for the degree of matching that you are suggesting would be required to have any real effect on usage.

Additionally, to compromise so greatly on the handle shape in order to match the set to the degree in which you describe compromises the utility of the whole set. An asymmetrical handle is more unwieldy compared to more rounded ones in both grip and balance. A matched set of knives or swords wielded in the fashion you describe would require a much tighter and more restrictive grip to maintain proper integrity in usage as one or separately.

Lastly, for a given gross motor purpose, it is the blade shape along the entire length and tip, and the blade's balance points which ultimately affect its effectiveness far beyond any effect the type and bevel angle and/or its relative sharpness could have on usage.


A lot of folklore surrounds knives and swords throughout history and across cultures that, when viewed within the context of the quality of metallurgy and the quality of craftsmanship available at the time - along with a basic understanding of the mechanics of the intended usage of the blades - just doesn't make logical sense.

[Yaksha]

A lot of folklore surrounds knives and swords throughout history and across cultures that, when viewed within the context of the quality of metallurgy and the quality of craftsmanship available at the time - along with a basic understanding of the mechanics of the intended usage of the blades - just doesn't make logical sense.

So, now that you've got me interested, what was the quality of metalurgy and craftsmanship available at the time?

[CoonAss]

well,

the quality of Metallurgy and Craftsmanship are two different subjects.

first, Metallurgy - was in its hay-day back then. however the metal used for swords, knives, etc. was heated and folded Over and over. while this did lend to the strength of a folded blade - primarily it was done so that the Impurities in the metals (back then) (nowadays we have higher grade 'manufactured' metals to work with.) could be worked out, allowing the metal to be forged into a stronger billet or piece to work into its final shape.

craftsmanship is part of aesthetic/visual appeal And functionality. typically, if a combat weapon, the sword was not typically crafted for visual apeal or looks - but for application. if it was an ornamental, ceremonial, etc weapon - then it would be crafted with more care given to its visual appeal.

i beilieve that what was produced back then was ideal for the tools and technology which they had to work with.

SIDENOTE: although the skills, knowledge and methods of these bladesmiths was superb, alot of these weapon making qualities were lost through time. due to lack of documentation, Government and teaching.

Hope this Helps.

[Gangsterfist]

tom-

thats funny you mention that, well its not funny its a good observation. to my knowledge the double butterfly knives come from butchers. They were designed and used similiar motions that a butcher would use to chop up animals (pork, fish, etc). Also, from my knowledge the butterfly knives were not added until the last 150yrs or so of wing chun. So, from my understanding they were added to the system long after the open hand part of the system was developed.

[Tom Kagan]

well,

the quality of Metallurgy and Craftsmanship are two different subjects.

first, Metallurgy - was in its hay-day back then. however the metal used for swords, knives, etc. was heated and folded Over and over. while this did lend to the strength of a folded blade - primarily it was done so that the Impurities in the metals (back then) (nowadays we have higher grade 'manufactured' metals to work with.) could be worked out, allowing the metal to be forged into a stronger billet or piece to work into its final shape.

craftsmanship is part of aesthetic/visual appeal And functionality. typically, if a combat weapon, the sword was not typically crafted for visual apeal or looks - but for application. if it was an ornamental, ceremonial, etc weapon - then it would be crafted with more care given to its visual appeal.

i beilieve that what was produced back then was ideal for the tools and technology which they had to work with.

SIDENOTE: although the skills, knowledge and methods of these bladesmiths was superb, alot of these weapon making qualities were lost through time. due to lack of documentation, Government and teaching.

Hope this Helps.


LOL

See what I mean? A few tangental truths mixed in with a good story makes for compelling folklore. Deconstructing your post properly would require about 2500 more words than I care to to type right now. :)




Suppose, for a moment, that I suggested that Ving Tsun BaatChamDo was originally only sharpened on the topmost 3rd of the edge, and that the reason a BaatChamDo was not originally sharpened all the way down the the edge was because the relative poor quality of craftmanship and available ore in the rural inland areas of Southern China, thus preventing a decent quality edge which did not weaken the blade where one would have to sharpen against the grain of the alloy. Additionally, suppose I suggested it was not until more frequent migration occured to the more urban areas along the coastline with ongoing import/export trade that exposure to better quality ore and more skilled blacksmithing craftsmen allowed the last 2/3 of the edge to be sharpened without usability compromise.


If someone was so inclined, they could go out and and prove or disprove my above postulate. Why? Because, if something is true or not (or in this case, correct or not), considerable evidence will be found in many places - most beyond the martial art field.

Historians could provide information on population migrations. Government archives could provide figures on ore mining production and quality. Archeologists could provide examples of not just BaatChamDo, but other implements such as the butcher knifes Gangsterfist mentioned or a farm sickle. Scientists could run tests on the implements and local ore. The military could provide recorded information on usage incidents (The U.S. DoD alone has more than 200 years of deconstructed battlefield incidents involving both specifics and generalities of sword and knife usage.) Blacksmiths could provide information about the creative process and the pitfalls found in creating a small hand tool.


Now, suppose for a moment that I suggested instead that the reason for sharpening only the top 1/3 of the edge was because sharpening the bottom 2/3 of the edge was considered making the weapon "too deadly" and contradictory to the principles and morals of the "monk" carrying the weapon. [NOTE: A skeptic might point out right here that the weapon was already very deadly solely due to the nature of its shape and ask why carry it at all if just this one aspect made it contradictory for a "monk" to carry? - but this avenue is another subject entirely.]

How do you prove or disprove this postulate? You can't. There is no evidence, one way or the other.

The best someone could do is become a scholar of the culture and/or a buddhist monk and dig into the religious texts. Even then, they could only make (presumably reasonable) inferences.


But hey, what set of data could compete with the "wow" factor of an "ancient warrior code" where the lone "monk" wanders the countryside armed with a concealable deadly weapon? A code where they still have such compassion for the person trying to sneak up and slit the monk's throat while he sleeps just for a pair of slippers? Such selflessness that he'd modify his weapon so it lost only about 35% of its effectiveness in killing? A code where slashing with the first 1/3 is more honorable than a slash from the last 2/3? A man of peace who clandestinely belongs to a secret society trying to, against all odds, overthrow the tyranical government hellbent on erasing every reference to the memory of the utopia from better times?


I couldn't pack the kiddies into the matinee with a powerpoint presentation detailing coastal import/export activity of the era. I'd be too bored to tears just by collating the first thirty spreadsheets. But the peasants still remained peasants, even if most everyone ignores it. ;)

[KPM]

LOL


Suppose, for a moment, that I suggested that Ving Tsun BaatChamDo was originally only sharpened on the topmost 3rd of the edge, and that the reason a BaatChamDo was not originally sharpened all the way down the the edge was because the relative poor quality of craftmanship and available ore in the rural inland areas of Southern China, thus preventing a decent quality edge which did not weaken the blade where one would have to sharpen against the grain of the alloy.


Now, suppose for a moment that I suggested instead that the reason for sharpening only the top 1/3 of the edge was because sharpening the bottom 2/3 of the edge was considered making the weapon "too deadly" and contradictory to the principles and morals of the "monk" carrying the weapon.
;)

Hi Tom!

Good post and good points. How about a third theory to muddy the waters even more? :) The lower 2/3 of the blade was needed for defense against bigger heavier weapons. The knife form has lots of "chopping" against the shaft of the pole. A sharpened edge can be a relatively fragile thing and hard to maintain when consistently knocked against other hard surfaces (ie other weapons), regardless of the quality of the metallurgy involved. So why sharpen something that won't stay sharp? Additionally, by keeping the lower 2/3 unsharpened, blade thickness is maintained at the edge so it will stand up to blocking forces better. Another point.....a sharpened edge would "catch" or "lodge" in the wooden shaft of the opponent's weapon and potentially disarm the knife man or at least stop the flow of his response. And besides, how often can you bring the lower parts of the blade (especially near the handle) into play offensively? The majority of the offense work is just naturally performed by the distal 1/3 of the blade.

Keith

[Tom Kagan]

Hi Tom!

Good post and good points. How about a third theory to muddy the waters even more? :) The lower 2/3 of the blade was needed for defense against bigger heavier weapons. The knife form has lots of "chopping" against the shaft of the pole. A sharpened edge can be a relatively fragile thing and hard to maintain when consistently knocked against other hard surfaces (ie other weapons), regardless of the quality of the metallurgy involved. So why sharpen something that won't stay sharp? Additionally, by keeping the lower 2/3 unsharpened, blade thickness is maintained at the edge so it will stand up to blocking forces better. Another point.....a sharpened edge would "catch" or "lodge" in the wooden shaft of the opponent's weapon and potentially disarm the knife man or at least stop the flow of his response. And besides, how often can you bring the lower parts of the blade (especially near the handle) into play offensively? The majority of the offense work is just naturally performed by the distal 1/3 of the blade.

Keith


Very good points, too, Keith.

And, if we weren't speculating on mere conjecture, I might, hypothetically, agree with such suppositions. :D

Do you see how these things get started? I offer up a half-@ssed rumor (the 1/3 part to 2/3 part of a blade edge's belly to choil ratio), as The Truth (tm) with no evidence or supporting references (thus, yet to be proven sufficiently), and already we have a third "reason" why someone would make a few swords or knives that way to improve battlefield odds in "ancient times." :)


Now, don't get me wrong: I am of the opinion that there is sufficient basis and evidence to support your postulate - enough to make it a bona fide working theory. However, again there would be evidence found to add greater support to the idea that a choil of 2/3 of the length of the blade was necessary for "blocking". Since there are so many examples of knifes and swords from China, Europe, and other areas which were not made this way, I would have to remain a skeptic and suggest that reasons for making a blade this way leaned more toward the quality of blacksmithing and available ore rather than any improvements in combat effectiveness. Additionally, although the problem of getting a blade "hung up" is a very real one, I'll suggest the opposite by stating that any blade sufficiently sharp to "cut in" will "cut out" - if the practitioner knows enough not to loosen their grip to the point where they accidentally let go. Weapon retention is a one credit Blades 101 prerequisite. :)

I'm also going to point out that carrying such a sizable weapon has to have multiple purposes - some not originally intended. If a person is going to make what was a considerable investment in a tool, they would probably be inclined to want the greater utility that sharpening more of the edge would bring, if at all possible. Taking along additional blades for chopping wood, cutting food, etc. etc. becomes somewhat unmanageable after a point for the lone monk seeking satori by following a path of vengeance for the killing of his brothers. ;)

[Yaksha]

I heard from at least two seperate scources that the origional butterfly swords were not sharpened at all and were mass produced by casting out of relatively cheap metal rather than hand forging. The whole design was meant to be inexpensive as possible/practical at that time. One of my scources then goes on to say that later, the tips were sharpened by the wing chunners for stabbing, and much later, the entire blades were sharpened and/or custom made.

Does anyone know of any historical examples of butterfly swords still in existance? Say, in photographs or museums?

[CoonAss]

Tom,

dont know why you would say that about my post. i was replying to a question about the metallurgy and craftsmanship. granted, i'm NO expert - but i have done Sh!tLoads of research, reading and speaking with various people on the subject.

in fact, i am a bladesmith (knifemaker - not like it matters).

i would agree that my post wasnt very clear or concise, including references. but i was just shooting out some points to answer a question - while i could ( at work).

Steve

[Mr Punch]

OK, I confess I know absolutely nothing about the development of the Baat Jaam Do, but LMAO at the idea that monks would need easily concealable knives more than say, rebels, outlaws, thugs, performers etc...!

[KPM]

Now, don't get me wrong: I am of the opinion that there is sufficient basis and evidence to support your postulate - enough to make it a bona fide working theory. However, again there would be evidence found to add greater support to the idea that a choil of 2/3 of the length of the blade was necessary for "blocking". ;)

If we had a sampling of authentic chinese butterfly swords from the period in question we could settle a lot of debate. One big misconception that was originally found among western martial arts fans was that swords were "banged" together like you see in the movies. When people that knew blades and knew what to look for had the chance to examine real historical samples (not just museum hangers) they quickly debunked this myth.

Keith

[duende]

Here's some more info on the butterfly swords.
http://www.fightauthority.com/modules.php?name=Encyclopedia&op=content&tid=47

[Gangsterfist]

OK, I confess I know absolutely nothing about the development of the Baat Jaam Do, but LMAO at the idea that monks would need easily concealable knives more than say, rebels, outlaws, thugs, performers etc...!

Who is to say that monks created them? From what i have been told the wing chun weapons (long pole and butterfly knives) were added in the last 150 years or so of wing chun. Why would wing chun get the nickname of the assasin's art if buddhist monks created it? I am sure that a lot of developement of wing chun has been outside the temple. That is just my guess though.

[Tom Kagan]

Yaksuka,

If what you heard ultimately can be substantiated, then the implication is that the BaatChamDo did not start out created for its ultimate purpose. (Cutlers who make knifes and swords but leave every blade unsharpened?) To leave the initial grinding of every single blade to peasants proves difficult to believe unless the initial piece was not intended to be a weapon in the first place.

KPM,

Interesting. Your astute observation regarding what archaeologists have managed to determine from existing specimens of the knives and swords surviving in history lends more credence to the idea that if a blade, indeed, has a substantial choil of 2/3 of its length, the reason for it has little to do with considerations for "blocking."

Charmingly quaint and eccentric beast of burden whose name won't pass the forum's filter,

I said what I said because I find it difficult to accept what you are suggesting. For myself, I don't mind being wrong; it's one of the reasons I post at all - to see whether what I write can stand the heat of public scrutiny that this forum's quasi "peer review" can bring to the table.

Setting aside the foggy memories of world history floating around in my head which cause me to suspect you've transposed the iron quality of Europe and the craftsmanship of Japan with those of Southern China for a moment, let me also "shoot out some points" as you have. (I'm at work, too, and could be completely wrong on everything I post here. Feel free to rip me to shreds and make fun of me - isn't that why we all post, anyway? ;) ):

Why do the people of a territory need weapons? To conquer other territories or to protect their territory. Why does a territory try to conquer other territories? To obtain their natural resources.

Purely by comparison to other territories, the region where Ving Tsun was born was relatively peaceful throughout much of its history. [Note to historians: I said relatively] This would imply that not only its natural resources were sufficient for its needs, but its resources were not in such abundance or of great quality that other less bountiful territories would be interested enough to obtain them. (Having The Great Wall further north to create archer defensible positions, thus bottling up invaders into "kill zones" surely benefited the region, too. :eek: ) It was not until much later in the region's history when the "resource" of trade route access developed more prominence in the region created a stronger need to protect its territory and repel invaders.

By this time, militaries were already well on their way to using modern weapons. Gunpowder, rockets, mortars, muskets, along with the skills of archers and marksmen deploying the weaponry were already changing the face of warfare - making the need for well crafted blades secondary in a battlefield role.

Without a strong need for a good battlefield blade combined with the lack of years in the craft's skill refinement implies the region's craftsmanship was probably low. If there was a need and the process was easy (an ease mainly due to the quality of iron and lack of need for Blacksmiths skilled in press welding or smelting), there would literally be hundreds of surviving blade specimens of the eras for archaeologists to uncover and examine. Since they're aren't, making good blades was probably comparatively difficult. Along with the relative peace of the region, this casts doubt on the desirability of iron quality available for other regions to plunder - or at least the ease of mining it in the region. Also, the comparative dearth of superbly crafted specimens from the region and era implies there was not much ceremony surrounding such weapons which, in turn, implies there wasn't much use for bladed weapons. [NOTE: many other KungFu styles from history exhibit a contradictory path from this. But they aren't Ving Tsun. To determine why would require looking at the situations in the depth of their region's history which surrounded the development of so many varied weapons.]


Now suppose there is a region where the local iron quality was extremely poor and where other natural resources were scarce for hundreds of years before the influence of modern warfare (read: Gunpowder). Due to the very fact that it would be darned hard to make bladed weapons and they still need them, that region will develop:

- high skill in press welding (not enough coal to develop a smelting process).
- high skill in blacksmithing.
- high ceremonial and cultural emphasis on the use of the blade and the weapons themselves.

What region in history fits the above description? Japan.


I'll stop here for now. I've reached the point where I'm starting to annoy even myself at the moment (which is never a particularly good thing. :D ) Perhaps some day I'll get to the deconstruction of your "weapon making qualities were lost" comment and some of the other items in your post - though I can't imagine the kiddies sticking around for the credit reel to run if I continue along the weak matinee storyline. :)

[Tom Kagan]

(My final refrain on the subject)

Duende,


...blood grooves were added to the sides of the blade. This enabled blood to drain more easily when the point of the sword pierced the stomach or other organs.

I can forgive the lack of references in an article due to it being originally published in a magazine and was cut for brevity. However, the above lines can be independently verified. The above - just one snippet from the article - is most definitely folklore. Since it is so glaring and should have been caught, it casts a shadow of skeptism over the rest of the tenets of the article yet to be cross-referenced sufficiently to both inside and outside of the martial arts world. [ASIDE: It would be nice to see the article updated with references. However, I understand completely how time and priorities can affect what does and does not get done.]

Any blade sharp enough to "cut in" will also "cut out" - just don't get the blade hung up on bone and don't let go.

The real reason for the bloodgroove is to stiffen the blade. It may seem odd that removing material from a blade can make it stiffer, but the basic physics can be demonstrated with a piece of paper: A carefully fanfolded paper sheet can stand on edge and balance a plate on top. A bloodgroove in a blade supports the narrower tip area with the same principle (well mostly, but that gives an idea).

How the bloodgroove received its nickname was because of three factors: 1) During initial manufacture, the groove was not forged or polished well (either a time, quality, or skill/tool factor). making a rough surface. 2) The "capilary action" of blood would fill the rough groove, turning it red. 3) The groove is inherently harder to keep clean. [An alternative: It just rusted itself red. :)]

Soldiers and the local bad guys come back from a skirmish, have a few drinks, and: Voila! The folklore of the bloodgroove is born. The folklore around the bloodgroove is found in most cultures, not just Southern China.

Still, a bloodgroove on a weapon as short as a BaatChamDo does not stiffen the blade to any practical extent! So why is it found on there? Its purpose is decorative. It is most likely an historical signature of the sword making specialty of the bladesmiths. In my opinion, this gives credence to the claim that the BaatChamDo is decended from a shortened sword design (a broken scimitar?), not from an elongated knife.



A good bladesmith is just one of the many people from entirely separate fields who can independently either verify or completely refute what I just wrote. But, hey: I'm not one to suggest facts should stand in the way of a good story. So, don't believe me, either. I might be playing a trick, too. If anyone is inclined, go and find out. The nature of true science is that it begs to be proven right or wrong.

:cool:

[CoonAss]

Tom, i've inserted my responses -whereever they fit :cool:



Charmingly quaint and eccentric beast of burden whose name won't pass the forum's filter,

------ thats a cute way to say it ... :D



I said what I said because I find it difficult to accept what you are suggesting. For myself, I don't mind being wrong; it's one of the reasons I post at all - to see whether what I write can stand the heat of public scrutiny that this forum's quasi "peer review" can bring to the table.


------- well, no - i try not too respond that way. LOL, i actually read most posts in that tone though :rolleyes:



Setting aside the foggy memories of world history floating around in my head which cause me to suspect you've transposed the iron quality of Europe and the craftsmanship of Japan with those of Southern China for a moment, let me also "shoot out some points" as you have. (I'm at work, too, and could be completely wrong on everything I post here. Feel free to rip me to shreds and make fun of me - isn't that why we all post, anyway? ;) ):


---------- No, not at all. in fact, i'm not looking at any other country, only China. without any comparisons to other countries.




By this time, militaries were already well on their way to using modern weapons. Gunpowder, rockets, mortars, muskets, along with the skills of archers and marksmen deploying the weaponry were already changing the face of warfare - making the need for well crafted blades secondary in a battlefield role.

Without a strong need for a good battlefield blade combined with the lack of years in the craft's skill refinement implies the region's craftsmanship was probably low. If there was a need and the process was easy (an ease mainly due to the quality of iron and lack of need for Blacksmiths skilled in press welding or smelting), there would literally be hundreds of surviving blade specimens of the eras for archaeologists to uncover and examine. Since they're aren't, making good blades was probably comparatively difficult. Along with the relative peace of the region, this casts doubt on the desirability of iron quality available for other regions to plunder - or at least the ease of mining it in the region. Also, the comparative dearth of superbly crafted specimens from the region and era implies there was not much ceremony surrounding such weapons which, in turn, implies there wasn't much use for bladed weapons. [NOTE: many other KungFu styles from history exhibit a contradictory path from this. But they aren't Ving Tsun. To determine why would require looking at the situations in the depth of their region's history which surrounded the development of so many varied weapons.]


-------- Sounds good to me. makes sense, no disagreements here.




Now suppose there is a region where the local iron quality was extremely poor and where other natural resources were scarce for hundreds of years before the influence of modern warfare (read: Gunpowder). Due to the very fact that it would be darned hard to make bladed weapons and they still need them, that region will develop:

- high skill in press welding (not enough coal to develop a smelting process).
- high skill in blacksmithing.
- high ceremonial and cultural emphasis on the use of the blade and the weapons themselves.


------- granted, i dont know everthing - like the agricultural trades like ferriers (blacksmiths). but i would believe that being a primarily agricultural society that some of these things would be in place.



What region in history fits the above description? Japan.



---------- To a "T"..... no doubt about it. like i said - i was only speaking of China , within itself. now, compared to Japan - its like comparing a Bow/Arrow to a Crossbow....




I'll stop here for now. I've reached the point where I'm starting to annoy even myself at the moment (which is never a particularly good thing. :D ) Perhaps some day I'll get to the deconstruction of your "weapon making qualities were lost" comment and some of the other items in your post - though I can't imagine the kiddies sticking around for the credit reel to run if I continue along the weak matinee storyline. :)

--------- no problem, you've highlighted some things i aint thought of. but i think that my lack of explanation left a wide open door for "fill-in the blanks" :)

by the way, i'm speaking of China's weapon making processes. although many lived on, there is a bulk of knowledge which has been lost. Read up on it, you might find something :D

[duende]

(My final refrain on the subject)

Duende,
The real reason for the bloodgroove is to stiffen the blade. It may seem odd that removing material from a blade can make it stiffer, but the basic physics can be demonstrated with a piece of paper: A carefully fanfolded paper sheet can stand on edge and balance a plate on top. A bloodgroove in a blade supports the narrower tip area with the same principle (well mostly, but that gives an idea).

How the bloodgroove received its nickname was because of three factors: 1) During initial manufacture, the groove was not forged or polished well (either a time, quality, or skill/tool factor). making a rough surface. 2) The "capilary action" of blood would fill the rough groove, turning it red. 3) The groove is inherently harder to keep clean. [An alternative: It just rusted itself red. :)]

Soldiers and the local bad guys come back from a skirmish, have a few drinks, and: Voila! The folklore of the bloodgroove is born. The folklore around the bloodgroove is found in most cultures, not just Southern China.

Still, a bloodgroove on a weapon as short as a BaatChamDo does not stiffen the blade to any practical extent! So why is it found on there? Its purpose is decorative. It is most likely an historical signature of the sword making specialty of the bladesmiths. In my opinion, this gives credence to the claim that the BaatChamDo is decended from a shortened sword design (a broken scimitar?), not from an elongated knife.



A good bladesmith is just one of the many people from entirely separate fields who can independently either verify or completely refute what I just wrote. But, hey: I'm not one to suggest facts should stand in the way of a good story. So, don't believe me, either. I might be playing a trick, too. If anyone is inclined, go and find out. The nature of true science is that it begs to be proven right or wrong.

:cool:

Hey Tom,

Strange that you disagree so strongly when by your own words you state that the groove itself would not add structural benefits due to the relatively short length of the blade itself. Furthermore you state that they do provide a "capilary action"...

If by your own logic, you consider the bloodgroove decorative, then do you consider the blade guard decorative as well?? Do consider the tassles on the spear decorative too??

[Tom Kagan]

Hey Tom,

Strange that you disagree so strongly when by your own words you state that the groove itself would not add structural benefits due to the relatively short length of the blade itself. Furthermore you state that they do provide a "capilary action"...

If by your own logic, you consider the bloodgroove decorative, then do you consider the blade guard decorative as well?? Do consider the tassles on the spear decorative too??

I am perfectly willing to accept the premise that the bloodgroove serves a purpose. So I ask:

Why aren't bloodgrooves on all combat knives and swords? It is doubtful that the people of Southern China bleed differently than people of other regions. And, it takes a great leap in logic to suggest that a relatively peaceful region had such knowledge that all of the rest of the waring armies of the world somehow missed and still refuse to see even today.

I'll now suggest the primary purpose of a combat blade since shortly after the dawn of modern warfare is utility. Maiming and killing are secondary purposes. Given that premise, it stands to reason that all changes to combat blades since roughly the 16th century onward were: 1) geared toward improving its versatility as a tool, 2) improving durability, 3) improving portability, or 4) improving ease of manufacture. Any and all changes which improved lethality were freebies. The lethal benefits of such redesigns were small, unintended byproducts and would be discarded quickly if such a change can be shown to hamper its primary purpose as a tool to a soldier.


[TANGENTIAL ANECDOTE: It took Colt Manufacturing two generations of the M16 to solve the problem of a bent barrel from soldiers and marines using the rifle with an affixed bayonet to pry open crates. They were using their primary weapon in a utility role! No amount of training could convince them they shouldn't use a rifle as a substitute for a crowbar. The manufacturer had to add a heavier barrel to its weight, thus giving up what was a small improvement in combat efficiency.]

(Big Kudos for cooling off and reediting your post.)

[sihing]

Hi all,

Does anyone here know where to buy some good Butterfly Swords. A student here in Thunder Bay wants to buy some, and I told him I would help in the search. Any assistance would be appreciated.

Thanks.

James

[anerlich]

I've had good reports on these:

http://www2.rpa.net/~artmasters/page2.htm

I have a pair of "Leung Ting" butterfly swords, unsharpened, brass handles and steel blade. The handles are slightly thinner for my hands than I'd like, but manageable, and I like the weight and balance of them. Swish leather scabbard as well. I got mine from a local MA store, but your local friendly WT outlet might be able to set you in the right direction.

My instructor has a couple of pairs of really nice swords, but they are both handmade by local knifesmiths, and horribly expensive as by all accounts they are a gigantic PITA to make.

[Phil Redmond]

Next to my Cold Steel BJD the ones that Sifu Cheung had made in China are the best I've seen. All of mine are gone but Keith Mazza should still have some. They are combat ready and only sharp near the top portion of the blade as the BJD should be for combat. He can be contacted at 856-231-0362. I was going to psot a pic of the knives but the file is to large. I'll make it smaller later then post it.
Phil

[sihing]

Thanks Guys, I'll pass the information along to the student..

James

[nelsonmarcelino]

I give two thumbs up to these:

http://wcats.com/BJD/AboutWcatsBJD.php

http://wcats.com/BJD/BJDPricenPix.php

http://wcats.com/BJD/Sword-Term.php

[Phil Redmond]

Here are the knives.
Phil

[stuartm]

They look cracking knives Phil!:)

[Phil Redmond]

They look cracking knives Phil!:)
I think so as well. I was very impressed with the knives. They are real combat weapons. I'm ordering more of them. The man who is having them made in China for Sifu Cheung also makes other weapons. He demonstrated how good they are by cutting through a bundle of straw like the Samurai did. I had to have a pair after seeing how easily they cut through the straw bundle.They are oil "cooled" as opposed to water cooled. Now what that means I have no clue. Maybe someone here can explain if and why that is better.
Phil

[cobra]

They are oil "cooled" as opposed to water cooled. Now what that means I have no clue. Maybe someone here can explain if and why that is better.


Oil or water is just what they use to "quench" the steel after it has been heat treated. Oil gives it a good hardness and is less likely to crack the steel and has a more uniform hardness throughout the blade. Water is more likely to crack the blade and depending on thickness, the hardness will be less uniform throughout the metal. Water quenching will also cause the blade to be more brittle and susceptible to breaking, chipping, etc. because it lowers the temperature of the blade faster. It just depends on the application which is better. For knife blades oil would definitely be the better of the two.

[snakebyte8]

No swordmaker would ever water quench a quality piece of steel to begin with so it's not really an issue! I would pay more attention to the type of steel actually used to craft your sword. High carbon (e.g. 1095) means better edge retention and more "toughness" but also more work keeping rust off the blade (oiling regularly). Stainless is good for staying clean but is not quite as good at holding the edge, so you spend more time sharpening. If your going to be cutting stuff on a regular basis I would go with high carbon, if not choose stainless. Forget those chrome plated swords, the steel is usually crap.

P.S. Phil you should see my WEED WHACKER cut through a bundle of straw! No it's not for sale!:D

[Phil Redmond]

Oil or water is just what they use to "quench" the steel after it has been heat treated. Oil gives it a good hardness and is less likely to crack the steel and has a more uniform hardness throughout the blade. Water is more likely to crack the blade and depending on thickness, the hardness will be less uniform throughout the metal. Water quenching will also cause the blade to be more brittle and susceptible to breaking, chipping, etc. because it lowers the temperature of the blade faster. It just depends on the application which is better. For knife blades oil would definitely be the better of the two.
I used the word "cooled" as opposed to "quenched". That shows I had no clue. ;)
Thanks,
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . P.S. Phil you should see my WEED WHACKER cut through a bundle of straw! No it's not for sale!:D
When I come to visit T.O. next month I'll have a few Toonies in my pocket and we'll see. :D

I'm going to ask what type of steel is used in those knives.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Some of you have already ordered the knives. There are only two left until more come from China in a few weeks/months. Anyone interested email or PM me.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

The knives we have now are high carbon steel. We will have Do made from Damascus steel that is folded 2000 times in a few months. I will have a pics of them in a few days. They are made in China by sword makers who are personal friends of my Sifu. Some will have the TWC logo on the blades for those who want it. Of course we will have them without any logo for other WC practitioners. We sent two pair to a group member. He should receive on Monday. If he likes he can comment on them here.
Phil

[AmanuJRY]

Next to my Cold Steel BJD the ones that Sifu Cheung had made in China are the best I've seen. All of mine are gone but Keith Mazza should still have some. They are combat ready and only sharp near the top portion of the blade as the BJD should be for combat. He can be contacted at 856-231-0362. I was going to psot a pic of the knives but the file is to large. I'll make it smaller later then post it.
Phil

Phil,

Where did you buy the Cold Steel BJD?

[Phil Redmond]

Phil,

Where did you buy the Cold Steel BJD?
I bought them from Cold Steel. They used to have they on their website but they've discontinued them. They can pierce through a car door as can most Cold Steel weapons. I can take a pic of them and post it later on.
Phil

[Ernie]

Well I got 2 sets frim Phil ,
real nice blades , so nice niether my partner [who i gave a set to for a b-day present ] nor myself wanted to bang them up with the pole ha-ha ,
but then Gary grabbed mine and started hacking of tree braches with a big smole on his face !
thanks Phill
when you get some more in i will see if the guys want to pick some up !

[Phil Redmond]

AmanuJRY, here are some pics of the Cold Steel BJD

Do-case (http://www.sifupr.com/pics/cold-steel1.JPG)

Cold_Steel-Do (http://www.sifupr.com/pics/cold-steel2.JPG)
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Well I got 2 sets frim Phil ,
real nice blades , so nice niether my partner [who i gave a set to for a b-day present ] nor myself wanted to bang them up with the pole ha-ha ,
but then Gary grabbed mine and started hacking of tree braches with a big smole on his face !
thanks Phill
when you get some more in i will see if the guys want to pick some up !
Thanks for the endorsement bro. When we get more I'll call you. I'm getting a pair with black blades for myself.
Phil

[AmanuJRY]

AmanuJRY, here are some pics of the Cold Steel BJD

Do-case (http://www.sifupr.com/pics/cold-steel1.JPG)

Cold_Steel-Do (http://www.sifupr.com/pics/cold-steel2.JPG)
Phil

Thanx Phil, those look pretty cool.:cool:

[Phil Redmond]

Thanx Phil, those look pretty cool.:cool:
YW, I'm not sure why they discontinued making them.
Phil

[AmanuJRY]

YW, I'm not sure why they discontinued making them.
Phil

I'm sure it had to be supply and demand. The cost to produce a Lot of them (or however many they produced) vs. how many people looking to buy a combat quality Do.

[Hatsuyuki]

So how much does a good pair of Butterfly swords usually go for?

[anerlich]

They can pierce through a car door as can most Cold Steel weapons.

I might try that with my CS folder next time I come across an abandoned car. ;)

Hatsuyuki, it depends on where you are and your definition of "good" but you're probably looking at minimum $200 on up. Top quality custom jobs from professional knifesmiths could retail for thousands - by all accounts making them is a long, arduous, and difficult process.

[Wingchun100]

Hi,

I live in the uk and I have been trying really hard to find some butterfly knives that are affordable and just decent quality, the pair I am using came from Pagoda and the blades have started to wobble.

I have found these oh a UK site called Wing Chun World and just wondered if anyone has a pair and could let me know if they are ok. They are only £150 so I am not expecting miracles but just want a pair I can train with that I am not scared of loosing the blade!

http://www.wingchunworld.co.uk/silver-chopper-swords-117-p.asp

Thanks

[MOSHE]

Hi,

I live in the uk and I have been trying really hard to find some butterfly knives that are affordable and just decent quality, the pair I am using came from Pagoda and the blades have started to wobble.

I have found these oh a UK site called Wing Chun World and just wondered if anyone has a pair and could let me know if they are ok. They are only £150 so I am not expecting miracles but just want a pair I can train with that I am not scared of loosing the blade!

http://www.wingchunworld.co.uk/silver-chopper-swords-117-p.asp

Thanks
They are too heavy at the end of the blade , mine are more balanced and much lighter

[Graham H]

Hi,

I live in the uk and I have been trying really hard to find some butterfly knives that are affordable and just decent quality, the pair I am using came from Pagoda and the blades have started to wobble.

I have found these oh a UK site called Wing Chun World and just wondered if anyone has a pair and could let me know if they are ok. They are only £150 so I am not expecting miracles but just want a pair I can train with that I am not scared of loosing the blade!

http://www.wingchunworld.co.uk/silver-chopper-swords-117-p.asp

Thanks

Nobody sells decent useable knives in the UK. They are all for show and will not resist the battering they get from sparring. I am having some made at present and as soon as I've made sure the metal is durable enough they will be available to the public to buy. If you want me to keep your details in mind then PM me.

These ones are made to WSL spec. I will post a photo if there is interest.

Remember these knives are for sparring against other weapons. They are not for show. They have no sharp edges or points and are designed to take a beating.

[Jansingsang]

Nobody sells decent useable knives in the UK. They are all for show and will not resist the battering they get from sparring. I am having some made at present and as soon as I've made sure the metal is durable enough they will be available to the public to buy. If you want me to keep your details in mind then PM me.

These ones are made to WSL spec. I will post a photo if there is interest.

Remember these knives are for sparring against other weapons. They are not for show. They have no sharp edges or points and are designed to take a beating.

Hey why can't we all have a butchers at these Spiecial Wsl knifes were they endorsed by Wsl ?

[Paddington]

Pm me for a contact who makes them to wsl specs.


Nobody sells decent useable knives in the UK. They are all for show and will not resist the battering they get from sparring. I am having some made at present and as soon as I've made sure the metal is durable enough they will be available to the public to buy. If you want me to keep your details in mind then PM me.

These ones are made to WSL spec. I will post a photo if there is interest.

Remember these knives are for sparring against other weapons. They are not for show. They have no sharp edges or points and are designed to take a beating.

I am very much interested Graham. No offense Kev but your man is not very reliable, or so it seems from my end!

[Wingchun100]

Hi,

I live in the uk and I have been trying really hard to find some butterfly knives that are affordable and just decent quality, the pair I am using came from Pagoda and the blades have started to wobble.

I have found these oh a UK site called Wing Chun World and just wondered if anyone has a pair and could let me know if they are ok. They are only £150 so I am not expecting miracles but just want a pair I can train with that I am not scared of loosing the blade!

http://www.wingchunworld.co.uk/silver-chopper-swords-117-p.asp

Thanks

I found someone locally in essex that has got a pair of the stabber swords
http://www.wingchunworld.co.uk/silver-stabber-swords-114-p.asp
from Wing Chun World so I went to take a look yesterday. They handle really well, feel balanced and are a great weight, they seem really strong and surprisingly well made for the price. The finish isn't as good as the EWC knives I have seen but not far off and they are much more affordable for me. They actually look and feel great for £150.
I comparison to the ones I have been using with the cast aluminium handles and wobbly blade they are fantastic so I have placed my order.

Hope this is useful to some of you

[Graham H]

You must have more money than sense. :)

[Graham H]

Hey why can't we all have a butchers at these Spiecial Wsl knifes were they endorsed by Wsl ?

One of my current knives. Aprox 1 kilo. Although there may be subtle differences, depending on who makes them, the knives we use in WSLPBVT are all of this design. They are based on WSL's specifications.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XhIJ6MAMJpc/Uos6DmHzhPI/AAAAAAAAADg/UmHbSc1vA64/w648-h864-no/IMG_0244.JPG

[Wingchun100]

Looks Fantastic Graham, especially for trapping!

[Graham H]

Looks Fantastic Graham, especially for trapping!

Unlike your usual knives these are designed for sparring. The edges are blunt so we don't turn our poles into sawdust and for sparring other swords/knives they can withstand a good clash without fracturing or sending lots of swarf flying through the air. The hand guard is designed for maximum protection and also for punching and blocking. The tang is small so we don't get tangled up on other weapons like what can happen with the usual big curving ones. The weight of the knife is aprox 1 kilo for conditioning the arm and the wrist to be able to control the knife during fighting. This also increases punching power. The length of the blade is so that we have good protection whilst angling into long weapons but without making them cumbersome.

The problem is that not many people use Ving Tsun knives for sparring and hard drilling. For making a few applications against a pole and or just learning to twirl thinking that they are not an integeral part of the system then your usual knives will do.

[Jansingsang]

Unlike your usual knives these are designed for sparring. The edges are blunt so we don't turn our poles into sawdust and for sparring other swords/knives they can withstand a good clash without fracturing or sending lots of swarf flying through the air. The hand guard is designed for maximum protection and also for punching and blocking. The tang is small so we don't get tangled up on other weapons like what can happen with the usual big curving ones. The weight of the knife is aprox 1 kilo for conditioning the arm and the wrist to be able to control the knife during fighting. This also increases punching power. The length of the blade is so that we have good protection whilst angling into long weapons but without making them cumbersome.

The problem is that not many people use Ving Tsun knives for sparring and hard drilling. For making a few applications against a pole and or just learning to twirl thinking that they are not an integeral part of the system then your usual knives will do.


You can see from the offset these are made for action rather than show Hmm i see you've been putting them Knifes through there paces saturated edges quite impressive Graham :D And it does make logical sense Small tang, as usual ones do get tangled I can buy that You can PM me with price etc Sold to the man in the Hat :cool:

[Graham H]

I will let you know the price in the coming weeks. My new ones are still in development. Once they are to my liking....................................

[Wingchun100]

Unlike your usual knives these are designed for sparring. The edges are blunt so we don't turn our poles into sawdust and for sparring other swords/knives they can withstand a good clash without fracturing or sending lots of swarf flying through the air. The hand guard is designed for maximum protection and also for punching and blocking. The tang is small so we don't get tangled up on other weapons like what can happen with the usual big curving ones. The weight of the knife is aprox 1 kilo for conditioning the arm and the wrist to be able to control the knife during fighting. This also increases punching power. The length of the blade is so that we have good protection whilst angling into long weapons but without making them cumbersome.

The problem is that not many people use Ving Tsun knives for sparring and hard drilling. For making a few applications against a pole and or just learning to twirl thinking that they are not an integeral part of the system then your usual knives will do.

We use heavy swords for reps and building the wrist strength, and then PU knives for weapon vs weapon. They dont have the weight but there stronger and last longer than the metal ones and we learnt the hard way about those serrations that you get in the blade, they are seruiously more dangerous than even a sharp edge! By tang I guess you mean quillion which is what we call the trapping section on the top of the handle, it is one of the key aspects of the wing chun swords that makes them different from any other and if your not training with it your missing out.
I guess this is what makes Wing Chun so great, there are so many different opinions on everything and we all will always think our way is best.

All the best and stay safe

[BPWT]

Here we go.... :D

In 5, 4, 3, 2...

[Graham H]

We use heavy swords for reps and building the wrist strength, and then PU knives for weapon vs weapon. They dont have the weight but there stronger and last longer than the metal ones and we learnt the hard way about those serrations that you get in the blade, they are seruiously more dangerous than even a sharp edge! By tang I guess you mean quillion which is what we call the trapping section on the top of the handle, it is one of the key aspects of the wing chun swords that makes them different from any other and if your not training with it your missing out.
I guess this is what makes Wing Chun so great, there are so many different opinions on everything and we all will always think our way is best.

All the best and stay safe

Each to their own.

[BPWT]

I guess we'll never know, as no one is actually fighting with them these days ... but do you think they snapped off in actual use? ;)

Or do you think the Tangs are a modern add-on?

[k gledhill]

Our knives

[k gledhill]

I guess we'll never know, as no one is actually fighting with them these days ... but do you think they snapped off in actual use? ;)

Or do you think the Tangs are a modern add-on?

Depends where you are in the world. Home invasion can be answered with " showing " the blades. I held a Kali seminar for a fellow vt student from
Boulder last weekend ( Steve Joffe ) blade fighting makes us move faster and adopt different footwork for evasion and running attacks.
Steve teaches Philippine military all aspects of sword and blade. Machette is a common weapon in some parts. Quillons are bad for our thinking of speed and movement in tight lines.

[BPWT]

I've only met on a few occasions some Pekiti-Tirsia guys, regarding Kali, but yes the footwork is different to Wing Tsun weapons work. Is this the branch of Kali you teach?

But what I meant was, why would the Wing Tsun/Ving Tsun knives have been designed the way they were, if the Tang's are easily snapped off when used?

Or do you mean that the way you use them is particular to the WSL method?

[KPM]

I would think that if you are taking contact on the quillions hard enough to break them off, then you are likely doing something wrong! ;)

[k gledhill]

I've only met on a few occasions some Pekiti-Tirsia guys, regarding Kali, but yes the footwork is different to Wing Tsun weapons work. Is this the branch of Kali you teach?

But what I meant was, why would the Wing Tsun/Ving Tsun knives have been designed the way they were, if the Tang's are easily snapped off when used?

Or do you mean that the way you use them is particular to the WSL method?

I don't teach kali, just personal knowledge of other knife methods.

[LFJ]

By tang I guess you mean quillion which is what we call the trapping section on the top of the handle, it is one of the key aspects of the wing chun swords that makes them different from any other and if your not training with it your missing out.

Trapping section? :(

Trying to use that little space to catch, trap, and manipulate other weapons at speed is the fantasy knife-fighting equivalent to hand-chasing, only with greatly increased danger. Good luck with that! We'll miss you being able to type on the forum with us.

7931

[GeneChing]

Using a bent guard to catch a blade isn't that difficult, especially if you have two weapons. There's a longstanding history of such usage in European bladed weapons. You'll find parrying hooks on plenty of historical examples of fighting arms, which is testament enough for the practically minded.

I've played with this using parrying daggers and butterfly knives. It's well within the realm of practical techniques. I think the misunderstanding comes with the nomenclature. When someone says "lock" or "trap" or "sword catcher", people tend to equate this to an armlock that needs to be tapped out of, or maybe catching a baseball. The lock doesn't have to be that solid. It's just a modified parry, and most sword parries happen at the guard, and it only needs to be maintained until you stab back. When you have two blades, that can happen pretty quickly.

BTW, you can get Butterfly swords here, but I won't attest to the strength of their parrying hooks. :o

[LFJ]

I admittedly don't know much about European sword-fighting methods, but from what I've seen the swords usually have long crossguards used to protect the hands by parrying as more of a backup defense, and not short hooks for deliberate "trapping" like in the picture posted above, which looks terribly dangerous, especially if it's part of your method to go for traps like that to manipulate the opponent's weapon. Even if you were able to catch a katana like that, I would still bet on the leverage of the katana wielded with two hands. I'd like to see it actually done at speed with non-compliant partners.

[Grumblegeezer]

I admittedly don't know much about European sword-fighting methods, but from what I've seen the swords usually have long crossguards used to protect the hands by parrying as more of a backup defense, and not short hooks for deliberate "trapping" like in the picture posted above...

Sorry LFJ but you are mistaken about that. I used to own a 19th century French bayonet that had a hooked quillion very similar to what you see one many Baat Cham Dao. And a good friend who has spent a couple of decades practicing European sword-arts has several rapiers and some other blades with similarly hooked guards. They were applied in combat as Gene described. My friend does a lot of weapons sparring and I've seen him parry or deflect an opponent's weapon and use the hooked guard to control his blade on numerous occasions.

[LFJ]

It's no wonder people will think all kinds of things will work when this is what they consider "crazy free style wing chun knife sparring (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtaiDn5BCRk)". :eek:

[Grumblegeezer]

Thats the nail on the head mate. People believe a lot of their stuff works, (with or without knives), because they don't test at speed with non-compliant partners.

European and American history up through the 19th century is replete with verifiable records of such real tests against non-compliant partners, i.e. warfare and dueling. More recently, you cand find similar examples in Filipino Martial Arts.

However in as much as such testing of the real, sharpened weapon at spead against a "non-compliant partner" will typically result in the maiming or death of one or both participants, it would be illegal ...and pretty insane to try today.

Which is why I find this whole debate moot and a bit childish as well. In an era when (at least where I live) almost anybody can carry guns legally, but carrying Bart Cham Dao will get you arrested, who in their right mind trains these weapons with the intention of actually using them (As compared to training to improve your technique, structure and footwork, etc.)?

[Ozzy Dave]

Discussion about the quillion aside for the moment, I'd like to ask Kev and Graham a question about their training knives.

Graham, if I'm viewing the picture correctly your knives have the handle in line with the back of the blade while Kev, your handles are in line with the centre of the blade - could I ask the reason for the difference please as in my experience this changes the nature of wielding the weapon quite a bit?

Dave

[LFJ]

European and American history up through the 19th century is replete with verifiable records of such real tests against non-compliant partners, i.e. warfare and dueling.

Verifiable records of 19th century sword fighting, like written descriptions of what someone did? Okay... Any video of people replicating it today, at speed against noncompliant partners?


However in as much as such testing of the real, sharpened weapon at spead against a "non-compliant partner" will typically result in the maiming or death of one or both participants, it would be illegal ...and pretty insane to try today.

Which is why I find this whole debate moot and a bit childish as well. In an era when (at least where I live) almost anybody can carry guns legally, but carrying Bart Cham Dao will get you arrested, who in their right mind trains these weapons with the intention of actually using them (As compared to training to improve your technique, structure and footwork, etc.)?

You think the only way to realistically test the functionality of the knife-fighting method would be to use live blades and actually chop each other up? So you probably think this "crazy free style wing chun knife sparring (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtaiDn5BCRk)" is as realistic as you can get with the knives. :rolleyes:

As I train it, the knives can represent any short weapon of opportunity, bladed or non-bladed, that may be available. So, no, I don't do any quillion trapping nonsense, because I won't likely be using the baat-jam-do and don't train to be a reenactor. I train it to be as realistic as empty-hand self-defense though; simple, direct, and efficient, and I highly doubt quillion trapping practicality. To me, it is the equivalent of hand-chasing, or "sticking" which is equally nonsense.

Unless of course, someone can demonstrate it at speed against noncompliant partners... :)

[Graham H]

Discussion about the quillion aside for the moment, I'd like to ask Kev and Graham a question about their training knives.

Graham, if I'm viewing the picture correctly your knives have the handle in line with the back of the blade while Kev, your handles are in line with the centre of the blade - could I ask the reason for the difference please as in my experience this changes the nature of wielding the weapon quite a bit?

Dave

Changes the nature of wielding the weapon??? I suppose it depends on how you wield it but the position of the handle makes no difference unless it not there at all :). The knives go where you put them. Wouldn't you agree? Kev has informed me that the central handle is so that you can parry using both sides of the handle. I wasn't aware of that and it hasn't posed a problem to me yet where the handle is on mine.

[Ozzy Dave]

Changes the nature of wielding the weapon??? I suppose it depends on how you wield it but the position of the handle makes no difference unless it not there at all :). The knives go where you put them. Wouldn't you agree? Kev has informed me that the central handle is so that you can parry using both sides of the handle. I wasn't aware of that and it hasn't posed a problem to me yet where the handle is on mine.

Yes I agree, and its not a problem more a question of emphasis, again in my experience, the handle behind the centre of the blade facilitates thrusting actions better and would naturally offer more protection to the thumb side of the hand while handle inline with the back or spine of the blade in this case would make better use of the weight of the blade for chopping actions.

I can see benefits to both orientations and just wanted your comments / ideas on the matter, interesting info from Kev, thanks.

Dave

[GeneChing]

I suppose all of those historical examples of actual weapons with 'sword catching' hooks were designed just for those compliant attackers. :rolleyes:

Seriously, just google parrying daggers. You'll find main gauches with 'sword breakers' which is a bit of a misnomer as they were these side slots along the blade to trap. It's actually pretty difficult to break a piece of tempered steel with one of these. Also, you really wouldn't want to do that in a duel as steel breaks sharp so if you broke your opponent's blade, it would leave them with a short sharp in range of a quick stab. You'll find trident daggers, which were these three-pronged spring-loaded devices.

But on a basic note, anyone who has done any sword work (and I specify sword work because baton work isn't quite the same) knows that it's pretty common to lock up guard to guard. That usually stops the action in a sword fight, like a clinch in boxing or MMA. If you have two weapons, the second one is free to work while the locked up weapon is, well, locked up (but rendering the opponent's weapon into the same state). If your locking weapon has some sort of trapping capability, like a parrying hook, all the better to trap with.

[Vajramusti]

I suppose all of those historical examples of actual weapons with 'sword catching' hooks were designed just for those compliant attackers. :rolleyes:

Seriously, just google parrying daggers. You'll find main gauches with 'sword breakers' which is a bit of a misnomer as they were these side slots along the blade to trap. It's actually pretty difficult to break a piece of tempered steel with one of these. Also, you really wouldn't want to do that in a duel as steel breaks sharp so if you broke your opponent's blade, it would leave them with a short sharp in range of a quick stab. You'll find trident daggers, which were these three-pronged spring-loaded devices.

But on a basic note, anyone who has done any sword work (and I specify sword work because baton work isn't quite the same) knows that it's pretty common to lock up guard to guard. That usually stops the action in a sword fight, like a clinch in boxing or MMA. If you have two weapons, the second one is free to work while the locked up weapon is, well, locked up (but rendering the opponent's weapon into the same state). If your locking weapon has some sort of trapping capability, like a parrying hook, all the better to trap with.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Good points Gene. Besides- these days the bot jam do-s help with continued hand development rather than sword fighting.

[LFJ]

I suppose all of those historical examples of actual weapons with 'sword catching' hooks were designed just for those compliant attackers. :rolleyes:

Examples of sword designs and descriptions of historical applications don't demonstrate the practicality of "sword catching" and whether anyone can actually do it under realistic conditions. Especially with the modern fantasy fighters and reenactors who don't train realistically in the first place, or those who train BJD just to improve their empty-hand fighting.

And especially in the topic of BJD where people talk not just about having a guard that serves a parrying advantage should a weapon slide down, but where purposefully catching, trapping and manipulating the opponent's weapon with that little hook is a main part of their method and something they actively look to do.

I say trying to catch and control a swinging katana at speed with your little hooks like this is a quick way to lose your hand and your head. But again, if someone can provide demonstration...

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7931

[BPWT.]

Examples of sword designs and descriptions of historical applications don't demonstrate the practicality of "sword catching" and whether anyone can actually do it under realistic conditions.

For sure, a picture or an actual - and old - sword/knife/dagger doesn't demonstrate practicality in and of itself (it's just a picture or an old object). But the question is why would weapons be designed in a certain way and then used on the battlefield, and after continued use still be produced and later used again, if they don't work?

Why would the BJD have these 'hooks' if they serve no practical purpose under realistic conditions? Were the knives not developed for practical use?

Or is there evidence to suggest that the design of the knives was based on aesthetics - purely as ornaments?

[LFJ]

That's what we're getting down to. We can assume swords were historically used in a particular way based on their design and whatnot, but it does us no good to think so, and we could even be wrong. What matters is what one can actually do with it now in a realistic manner.

As you can see in pictures in this thread, not all BJD designs have large or fancy quillons. The WSL design reflects the practicality and basic principles of the entire system; to be simple, direct, and efficient. There is no sword-chasing or hooking just as there is no hand-chasing or sticking.

[LFJ]

Plus, I must reiterate that not everyone is like Vajramusti and doesn't train the BJD to be practical weapons:


Good points Gene. Besides- these days the bot jam do-s help with continued hand development rather than sword fighting.

Of course, we are very unlikely to enter a duel with BJD, but that is just another reason for our design not having a particular tool like the quillon used as a main part of our knife-fighting method. The simple design of the WSL BJD and its use transfer very well to any short weapon of opportunity, bladed or non-bladed, which we are more likely to use in a real fight. Working on trapping skills with the quillon is a waste of time unless you are a fantasy fighter or just having fun.

[BPWT.]

Of course, we are very unlikely to enter a duel with BJD, but that is just another reason for our design not having a particular tool like the quillon used as a main part of our knife-fighting method. The simple design of the WSL BJD and its use transfer very well to any short weapon of opportunity, bladed or non-bladed, which we are more likely to use in a real fight.

Okay, thanks - that gives me a better picture of why you do what you do (or rather, why you would modify the design of the knives).

Still.... ;)... I think the fact that the knives were designed with these hooks is an indication that they could/were used in application. If they served no practical purpose, I can't see why they would have remained.

All moot for me, of course, as I haven't learned the BJD yet. :)

[LFJ]

Still.... ;)... I think the fact that the knives were designed with these hooks is an indication that they could/were used in application. If they served no practical purpose, I can't see why they would have remained.

I could image them being there for added protection of the hand should another weapon slide down the back, and then later misinterpreted by modern people who only train at slow speed with compliant partners. You can think up all sorts of nifty uses for them that work... under those circumstances.

But then again, if they really were used like in the picture I posted, I'd love to see someone demonstrate the skill at speed against non-compliant partners. I have strong doubt about its practicality as it stands now, regardless of whatever historical artifacts and descriptions you may pull up.

[Graham H]

I think what is important here is how our knives can improve our own Ving Tsun as a whole. When trained correctly they have a very positive effect on all other parts of the system. Small quillions/Large quillions, offset handles, what does it matter? As long as they are functional for purpose and can be used by the practitioner effectively its no problem. The strategy of the knives is important. There are many systems where the weapons are seen as a traditional addition and some people advocate the idea that they were thrown into the mix sometime later. An incorrect idea IMO because both the knives and the pole are too involved everywhere else to not be part of the evolution of VT in its beginnings. Maybe there were other weapons that faded out. When people talk about weapons they usually talk about the forms or some rehearsed applications against each other. I am fortunate that in my lineage they have a lot more importance and are sparred with as well as the open hands. As with most things in Ving Tsun common sense should prevail but unfortunately in a lot of Ving Tsun common sense is in short supply. Its the fantasy vs Reality question like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j55d8uqvKDQ

[GeneChing]

I say trying to catch and control a swinging katana at speed with your little hooks like this is a quick way to lose your hand and your head. Your visualization of this might be wrong. You don't really catch the sword with the hook. You parry the blow with the spine of the weapon. Generally, when blades meet, they tend to travel towards the guard. When that happens, is when the trap is applied. I've done it with hook swords, although I suppose you could argue that the opponent was compliant as we weren't really cutting each other up. Granted, it would be much more difficult with a short blade like a butt sword or a jitte, but it's not impossible.

[k gledhill]

Your visualization of this might be wrong. You don't really catch the sword with the hook. You parry the blow with the spine of the weapon. Generally, when blades meet, they tend to travel towards the guard. When that happens, is when the trap is applied. I've done it with hook swords, although I suppose you could argue that the opponent was compliant as we weren't really cutting each other up. Granted, it would be much more difficult with a short blade like a butt sword or a jitte, but it's not impossible.

" parry with the spine " ?

[GeneChing]

Some blade enthusiasts describe weapon architecture using terms that used to describe anatomy. So the pommel end is called the 'butt' and the point is called the 'head'. The dull edge of a single-edged weapon is called the 'spine'. It's useful when describing attributes of a distinctive blade because you can deploy terms like 'ventral' and 'dorsal'.

[Wingchun100]

Said I would keep this thread alive so thought I would post an update....

Been using my new swords now for well over a month and have found them great. Used them for fair bit of sword vs pole word in our clubs weapons classes and they seem bullet proof. Two ther guys have brought some too from our club and they are great too, one has the curved blade ones, they look crazy to me feel good in the hand and are of the same quality as mine. Would definately recomend a pair if you are looking affordable as they are much better than anything else I have seen over the years.

Hope this helps.

[Paddington]

Said I would keep this thread alive so thought I would post an update....

Been using my new swords now for well over a month and have found them great. Used them for fair bit of sword vs pole word in our clubs weapons classes and they seem bullet proof. Two ther guys have brought some too from our club and they are great too, one has the curved blade ones, they look crazy to me feel good in the hand and are of the same quality as mine. Would definately recomend a pair if you are looking affordable as they are much better than anything else I have seen over the years.

Hope this helps.

Hello Wingchun100. Are those knives suitable for sparring vs other swords and metal weapons? Is wingchunworld sourcing their knives from Everythingwingchun (http://www.everythingwingchun.com/wing-chun-butterfly-swords-s/35.htm) ?

[Wingchun100]

Hello Wingchun100. Are those knives suitable for sparring vs other swords and metal weapons? Is wingchunworld sourcing their knives from Everythingwingchun (http://www.everythingwingchun.com/wing-chun-butterfly-swords-s/35.htm) ?

I cant see that they are from everything wing chun as they are much cheaper, I looked at swords from everything wing chun loads but just couldnt bring myself to pay £250+ and then have to pay the massive import duty.
I am not going to smash my up metal on metal as I now have my old pair to use, but they seem pretty bullet proof if that is what you want them for. They seem much stronger that other swords I have used in the past for weapon on weapon.

[Paddington]

So I contacted Aaron over at www.everythingwingchun.com because the knives at wingchunworld linked to here;

http://www.wingchunworld.co.uk/butterfly-swords---curved-hybrid---sold-out-113-p.asp

Looked remarkably similar to the ones made by everythingwingchun linked here;

http://www.everythingwingchun.com/Randall-Sasquatch-Style-Wing-Chun-Butterfly-Swords-p/bjd-md01-sasq-d2-s.htm

Aaron informed me that even the picture used at wingchunworld is perhaps one he took himself and he tells me he can even see the copyright mark on the picture despite attempts to remove it. Anyway, I'll post what Aaron said below.

<quote>

We are the only makers of these swords and if you ever see them anywhere else you can be guaranteed they are forgeries.

I am not sure what you would get if they actually delivered you something, but I can tell you for sure you will not get the same thing as well sell. Those pictures are ones I took myself and so I know they are not of the product they have. I can even see where they blotted out copyright notice out. We have seen Pakistani knock-offs of our designs and they are cheap materials and cheaply made. I assume that is what these are.

Best,

Aaron

</quote>

Wingchun1000, given that you started a similar thread here, http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/112504-Butterfly-Knives, I feel I must ask you if you are involved with wingchunworld in any way?

EDIT: It seems wingchunworld has removed their listing of the Randall-Sasquatch-Style sword. It looks like my inquiries are having an impact.

[Wingchun100]

So I contacted Aaron over at www.everythingwingchun.com because the knives at wingchunworld linked to here;

http://www.wingchunworld.co.uk/butterfly-swords---curved-hybrid---sold-out-113-p.asp

Looked remarkably similar to the ones made by everythingwingchun linked here;

http://www.everythingwingchun.com/Randall-Sasquatch-Style-Wing-Chun-Butterfly-Swords-p/bjd-md01-sasq-d2-s.htm

Aaron informed me that even the picture used at wingchunworld is perhaps one he took himself and he tells me he can even see the copyright mark on the picture despite attempts to remove it. Anyway, I'll post what Aaron said below.

<quote>

We are the only makers of these swords and if you ever see them anywhere else you can be guaranteed they are forgeries.

I am not sure what you would get if they actually delivered you something, but I can tell you for sure you will not get the same thing as well sell. Those pictures are ones I took myself and so I know they are not of the product they have. I can even see where they blotted out copyright notice out. We have seen Pakistani knock-offs of our designs and they are cheap materials and cheaply made. I assume that is what these are.

Best,

Aaron

</quote>

Wingchun1000, given that you started a similar thread here, http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/112504-Butterfly-Knives, I feel I must ask you if you are involved with wingchunworld in any way?

EDIT: It seems wingchunworld has removed their listing of the Randall-Sasquatch-Style sword. It looks like my inquiries are having an impact.

Interesting post, no not to do with me apart from being a customer. I posted threads on multiple sites when I was looking for my knives and updated them for a couple of months afterwards???
My club has now brought a load of kit from Wing Chun World including some Everything Wing Chun Swords and the curved looking ones that you reffer to above, which are still being sold there. The stuffs been great there own swords are good and lasting well and the guy that brought a pair of the Flagship line everything wing chun swords from wing chun world let me have a go and they are fantastic if your looking to shell out that sort of money.

I dont really understand what your post was about paddington and I have no wish to get involved other than to let people know where I managed to get my swords and what they were like.

I hope the post helped some people.

[Tong Chuang]

Hi,

They are only £150 .....

Thanks

Dude, only £150 sounds a lot for only a pair of training Bart Jarm Dao.
I recently bought myself a pair of training Butterfly knives 90199020
SPEC
Stainless steel Blade and guard
made in Taiwan
Blade length = 14'' (36 cm) UNSHARPENED
Blade Width = 3'' (75mm)
Blade Thickness (actual) = 1/8'' (3.0mm)
WEIGHT = APPROX 1 kg EACH - QUITE HEAVY
COST = 53.75 EUROS APPROX £43 INCLUDING SHIPPING FROM POLAND TO UK - NO CUSTOMS ISSUES AROSE.
They don't come with a case but you can buy one separately.

SUPPLIER:
http://martial-arts-shop.eu/
LINE ITEM
http://martial-arts-shop.eu/product/description/3237/Training_Butterfly_Swords%28GTTD462%29.html#.U-ox7KNO6XE

They are a bit long and heavy, but I plan to cut my down to about 12'' and taper the blade also. I'm not planning to sharpen the blade.

[Paddington]

Interesting post, no not to do with me apart from being a customer. I posted threads on multiple sites when I was looking for my knives and updated them for a couple of months afterwards???
My club has now brought a load of kit from Wing Chun World including some Everything Wing Chun Swords and the curved looking ones that you reffer to above, which are still being sold there. The stuffs been great there own swords are good and lasting well and the guy that brought a pair of the Flagship line everything wing chun swords from wing chun world let me have a go and they are fantastic if your looking to shell out that sort of money.

I dont really understand what your post was about paddington and I have no wish to get involved other than to let people know where I managed to get my swords and what they were like.

I hope the post helped some people.

You are a little late to the party with your post. After I pointed out that wing chun world was ripping off everythingwingchun, the respective parties were put in communication with one another and the latter offered to supply the former. In a way I played a part in that supply line being set up.

My question to you all the way back then was to assess whether you are a part of wing chun world, which is the commercial arm for an actual wing chun club or at least is run by someone who is also in a particular wing chun training club. So, what is the name of your wing chun club? Is it the same one that wing chun world is an offshoot of?

As for wing chun world still selling those curved blades, well, I will let Aaron sort that out for himself.

I too have a pair of 'flagship' standard knives form Aaron, the 'tough as hell' pair at an inch longer length than those Aaron supplies to wing chun world. They are a great pair of knives and are beautifully balanced. They are very addictive to use too and I find myself using them everyday, much to the lament of my neck and shoulders.

[slick69]

Hi,

I live in the uk and I have been trying really hard to find some butterfly knives that are affordable and just decent quality, the pair I am using came from Pagoda and the blades have started to wobble.

I have found these oh a UK site called Wing Chun World and just wondered if anyone has a pair and could let me know if they are ok. They are only £150 so I am not expecting miracles but just want a pair I can train with that I am not scared of loosing the blade!

http://www.wingchunworld.co.uk/silver-chopper-swords-117-p.asp

Thanks

Tried everything wing chun?

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h8OCZWpKkA

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/mzine/2001-5cover.jpg

SEPTEMBER+OCTOBER 2001 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=140)

Butterfly Swords (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?37393-Butterfly-Swords) @ KUNG FU TAI CHI 25TH ANNIVERSARY FESTIVAL (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?69762-KUNG-FU-TAI-CHI-25TH-ANNIVERSARY-FESTIVAL-May-19-21-2017-San-Jose-CA)

[GeneChing]

After boxerbilly's disparaging This forum sucks (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70869-This-forum-sucks), I thought I might pump a little luv into this subforum. It's not easy. It's our most specific style forum so it seldom pops up on my newsfeeds, and typically my workday morning posts fall out of my surfing for stories. Most aren't worthy of reposting.

Here's the first one I've found for this WC revitalization campaign. I'll just leave this here. ;)


Never a dull moment: Butterfly swords break out at Wing Chun Kung Fu in Lakeland
By Bill Kemp
Posted Jul 16, 2018 at 6:39 PM
Updated Jul 17, 2018 at 7:24 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooLHEVqmApo

LAKELAND — Butterflies may be harmless, but butterfly swords “can ruin your day.”
The 11- to 14-inch Bart Chum Dao swords, dubbed butterfly swords through the centuries because of the way a pair folds and their appearance displayed on walls, are being taught as part of the daily training workouts at Sifu Och Wing Chun Kung Fu in Lakeland.
Butterfly swords come in pairs, hold a dull edge, and have curved brass guards — one surrounding the bottom of the handle and a second protruding perilously to a point along the spine of the blade.
“The swords were originally from the Buddhist monks, so only the top curve was sharpened. These were not swords they used to kill people. They were Buddhist and didn’t believe in killing anyone. But they would break bones, tear limbs and really ruin your day,” explained Sifu Justin Och, 39, a black and gold sash fifth degree master instructor and owner of the dojo.
“The handle of the sword can be used just like brass knuckles in close range. The back of the sword is also butted out if you want to hit with the back of it,” said Och, who has been involved in martial arts since his grandmother enrolled him Kenpo Karate at age 7.
“The cool thing about these swords is because there are two of them, you can block and attack simultaneously and you can smack other weapons off.”
Sifu Och Wing Chun Kung Fu, founded in 2007, currently has 193 students — 265 counting the after-school program — teaches butterfly sword fighting to students once they grasp the fundamentals of Wing Chun and reach an intermediate level of combat in the discipline.
“The swords are really an extension of your hands. You need really good wrist power and they can get kind of heavy at times even though they weigh about 1 ½ pounds each,” said Garrett Brumfield, 42, who teaches and trains at Sifu Och’s Tampa dojo.

http://www.theledger.com/storyimage/LK/20180716/SPORTS/180717995/AR/0/AR-180717995.jpg?Q=75&maxW=660|http://www.theledger.com/storyimage/LK/20180716/SPORTS/180717995/AR/0/AR-180717995.jpg

“The swords make a workout very interesting and your arms can get very tired. You would not have them with you in a real-life situation but if you had two sticks, you could use the same movements. We also train with a long pole and that can be translated to a broom if it was available.”
Sarah Lister, 22, just started working with the swords a month ago. She holds a second-degree black belt from Kenney Karate, where she trained for 10 years. She moved over to Wing Chun three years ago and now also holds a green-white sash belt.
“The swords are definitely different, a lot heavier and deadlier than anything I have used before. They give me a feeling of responsibility,” Lister said. “The easiest part is translating the Wing Chun into the swords adn the most difficult part is learning not to cut yourself. It’s slow at first but the speed picks up as you go.”
Och said Wing Chun, a close-up blend of attacking and defending kung fu, was developed by five Chinese monks 350 to 400 years ago and the swords soon followed.
“It is made to have some of the best of the best of Southern Shaolin Kung Fu systems. If is like the Southern Shaolin’s system of mixed martial arts.
“Monks were attacked on their way into town to sell their goods or on the way back. They were being murdered, beaten, battered and bruised. This new system could be learned in three to five years if you trained it all day, and then you could use it in a very bad situation.”

Och said monks could conceal the swords very easily in their clothing and have them ready for combat in seconds. Additionally, the swords were useful for cleaning fish and other daily activities.
“The swords use same movements and techniques that Wing Chun does, which is to block and attack simultaneously,” said Och.
A pair of butterfly swords retail anywhere from $225 to $500, but you get what you pay for.
“The cheapest pair I have ever seen was $150, but you will usually get a warning not to use them for real practice. They are only for display purposes,” Och said.
“We have some made custom here. I have a gentleman, who is a blacksmith over in Europe, and he designs the swords from scratch for us.”
Och also studied Shotokan karate as a youth but eventually switched to Wing Chun after getting in a bad fight while exiting a bus. He described himself as that “geeky-looking kid” and was picked on a lot as a teenager.
“I started looking for something a little bit more realistic for self-defense. The other forms were great for me as a kid but they weren’t really teaching me anything realistic for self-defense when I got into those bad situations. That is what brought me to Wing Chun in 1999,” Och said.
Och finished the Wing Chun system under four different lineages. He is now the regional director the World Wing Chun Athletic Association and has traveled to 14 different countries, training with masters and grand masters.
Bill Kemp can be contacted at Bill.Kemp@theledger.com; follow him on Twitter @BillKempSports

Anyone know Sifu Och?

And here's some cheaper Butt Knives...I mean Butterfly Swords (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-69l.html).