Dead Pattern Drills

[XINDU]

Many WC, Karate, JKD schools, etc... I have been to spend countless hours wasting time with dead pattern oriented drills rather than "Alive Drills." In other words doing a specific two man set where each participant cooperates (other than learning a technique what does this have to do with fighting). In fighting (sport or street) the opponent resists. I say once you've spent twenty minutes learning the technique it should be applied against a resisting opponent not in some energy drill that has no applicability to fighting. What goes on at your school? Do you spar against resistance in all ranges of combat. Kicking, punching, trapping/ clinching, grappling? Or do you sit in the pigeon toed stance practicing your fook sau for thirty minutes? I am just trying to get feed back on gyms.
To further elaborate on what I am saying I lift a quote written by a martial artist on another website.

Aliveness is not a dead pattern or drill. If the movements of the drill are repetitive, itÂ’s dead. If the movements of the drill are unnatural its dead. If the drill is contrived and not applicable to fighting itÂ’s dead. Next time you are doing one of the myriad of dead drills out there ask yourself this question, what does this have to do with fighting?





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[Thaegen]

drilling is important. You muscle memory need time to remember it. First against a passive opponent, later against a resistent opponent. In every MA is drilling! Even in MT we drill.

[anerlich]

Xindu/MSN13/Silent Warrior,

quite a few people here, myself included, follow Matt Thornton's philosophies, own his materials, are members of his forums, cross-train, etc.

There's no real need for you to regurgitate someone else's work, and go over issues which have been discussed here many times before, in a poor trolling attempt.

1.3

[Liddel]

Anerlich - i am new to this forum, ive only been reading and contributing for a month or so.
So please dont say stuff like -
"There's no real need for you to regurgitate someone else's work, and go over issues which have been discussed here many times before"
Because for new people that have just got here or people that havent yet joined and will come in the future,
these things ARE relevant - if you've seen/discussed a subject before
- just dont reply !

[anerlich]

Liddell,

I'm happy to have a discussion about "aliveness", though I'd prefer it not result from an obvious troll attempt, but what the he11.

So, what do you think about "Dead Patterns" and "Aliveness", anyway?

[Mr Punch]

Repetitive two-person drills are useful for beginners:

1) They get you used to hard physical contact in a safe way,

2) They add to your tool-box (like form work) for things to work in sparring... if you can't get it to work in sparring you need to find out why,

3) varying the intensity of a repetitive drill is a good way to learn about feinting, timing, distancing, and leverage, again without getting punched in the face (too hard!) or having your arms ripped off.

I use two person drills in wing chun, shooto (submission wrestling, boxing, thai, jujutsu, graeco-roman) and aikido.

In some schools where you practice longer and longer sequences of moves with less and less resistance there will be less and less productive time spent.

I think the key to statements like 'dead two-person drills are meaningless' is that the words 'too many' should be put in front of them! As usual, balance is important.

BTW, never read any Matt Thornton: the above is from my own observation (mostly) and a couple of good teachers.

[Edmund]

I think the key to statements like 'dead two-person drills are meaningless' is that the words 'too many' should be put in front of them!

Agreed. If I had never drilled a technique repetitively I don't think I would have learnt a thing. I guess I must be dead. Alive people just learn by watching and nailing it perfectly when the time comes :).

[Mr Punch]

I guess I must be dead. Alive people just learn by watching and nailing it perfectly when the time comes :)...........:D

[XINDU]

Xindu/MSN13/Silent Warrior,

quite a few people here, myself included, follow Matt Thornton's philosophies, own his materials, are members of his forums, cross-train, etc.

There's no real need for you to regurgitate someone else's work, and go over issues which have been discussed here many times before, in a poor trolling attempt.

1.3
You seem to want to argue with everybody that does not follow your line of thinking. If it don't apply let it fly!

[anerlich]

You seem to want to argue with everybody that does not follow your line of thinking.

If I don't agree with someone's POV, of course I'll argue against it. I didn't realise I had to agree with everybody on the forum, sorry.

I actually agree with the line of thinking you expressed in your post, unoriginal as it was. I still think it was a troll attempt.

[yenhoi]

1stly: "aliveness" is not the only criteria any person should use to evaluate any or all of his/her training methods.

2ndly: "aliveness" is more about marketing then it is about training. Schools, systems, styles, etc around the world that have been training successful fighters for years and years and years all already understand aliveness, and so do their students and other exponents. "aliveness" is about recruiting mcdojo students to real gyms. specifically sbg gysm now opening near you.

3rdly: What mat said.

:eek:

[Vash]

1stly: "aliveness" is not the only criteria any person should use to evaluate any or all of his/her training methods.

2ndly: "aliveness" is more about marketing then it is about training. Schools, systems, styles, etc around the world that have been training successful fighters for years and years and years all already understand aliveness, and so do their students and other exponents. "aliveness" is about recruiting mcdojo students to real gyms. specifically sbg gysm now opening near you.

3rdly: What mat said.

:eek:

teh tr00th!