How much force is the right force to get the job done?

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Everyone,

Many of us seem to have different opinions here....

In push hands and combat, some of us would say that it is ok to use a lot of force, as long as internal skill is applied. Some of us would say that it is critical that we use minimum force.

Drawing from my own experience in dealing with other Tai Chi, Wing Chun, Bagua, Karate, Aikido and Jujitsu guys varying from 50kg to 90kg plus, I find that if I use only just enough force to sustain my posture with plenty of free-flowing and internal redirection of forces, I become more effective. Especially if I have to deal with someone much bigger or someone using a lot of joint lock and pinning.

Speed wise, as long as I can dominate the pace right from the beginning I do not find I need to be extra fast, but just fast enough.

What would be your experiences here?

What level of force and strategies do you find useful in dealing with other martial art styles? Do you think it is necessary to use a fair lot of force, or should we stick to the 4 ounces? Do we need to learn to kick/punch hard/fast?

Cheers,
John

[Ray Pina]

My soul jumps for joy if someone wants to trade hands with me and will only use a part of their potential force. I will use full force and full intention.

There is a big difference between using full force and power and figthing against someone else's power. This is where many internalists make a mistake. They tell you to "relax, relax, relax."

But when I'm resisting their efforts they can't do anything to me. Only if I stand there like a straw dog can they move me .... what good is that?

So, don't go against the other guy's force -- drop it, dump it, borrow it, whatever you need to do -- but certainly beat the $hit out of the guy with everything you got. When you know you can do that, you are automatically relaxed.

Relaxed is staying calm. I'm relaxed when I'm dropping in on a 10 foot wave, but I need to crank a good bottom turn, have to kick the board out to throw spray off the lip, etc. Their is expenditure of energy, their is work, but relaxed is a state of mind and it results in a relaxed, untensed body. But you can't go surf big waves or fight if you carry yourself like a marshmellow.

[SPJ]

In response to the first post:

Positioning is the key.

The left, the right, the front, the rear, the up and down are general considerations.

1. Never overextend or underextend. Wu Bu Kuo Yu Bu Ji.

2. You are in your front side and the opponent is in his backside. Wo Sun Ren Bei.

The maneuvering to gain advantage or elbow room and waist room holds the key.

In Tai Chi, you move in 5 steps.

In Ba Gua, you move in 8 directions.

They are to take care of the front vs back positional problems.

The force is only as needed, if you are positioning into being able to exert more force and fully while the opponent is reversing to balance himself.

If you only focus on forearm position only, you lose the big picture of the steps and the waist rotation.

:D

[Chief Fox]

But you can't go surf big waves or fight if you carry yourself like a marshmellow.

This is a great line. :D

[Anderzander]

How much force is the right force to get the job done?

The answer would appear to be - 'depends on who your teacher is'

In my training I do not use a structure to divert or break the opponents force. I train to use emptiness to break their structure.

By having an absense of intent within the body I 'give up myself to know the others'. With no intent in the body the body becomes empty to the point where it simply becomes a conduit for their force, but without receiving any of it - 'they do not know me'

The use of force - even internally generated force - is against what I attempt. The use of structure is very much involved with controlling the other persons body. The use of emptiness is very much to do with controlling the other persons mind.

So......"How much force is the right force to get the job done?" - then answer for me constantly seems to be "a lot less than you think!"

[qiphlow]

how much force? 4 ounces. (but only against 1000 pounds)
hahahahahahahahaha!
sorry--i couldn't resist....

but seriously, one only need use enough to get the job done. match your opponent, blend with him. fill in his empty spaces. connect to him, then connect him to you. then he will move.

[hellhound]

When diverting an oncoming attack I feel the 4 ounces will get you where you need to be if used correctly. For other things such as offence and defense in regards to an attack that you did not thwart then force will usually be needed.