OT: Explosions in London

[stubbs]

:mad:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4659093.stm

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13382111,00.html
________
Fordl?ndia History (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Fordl?ndia)

[TonyM.]

Geez I hate punks that prey on civilians.

[Nick Forrer]

RIP all those who have died :mad:

I live in C london and use all of the stations bombed on a regular basis. :mad:

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, not terribly happy about this.

Good Luck to all the Brits here.

[Merryprankster]

Thank you Mr Blair for sucking us into this mess and making us, like spain, a target for these fanatics

Not exactly true, and I think maybe not suitable for this thread.

Of course, if you want to have a lively debate on the issue on another, we can do that :D

[fa_jing]

Thank you Mr Blair for sucking us into this mess and making us, like spain, a target for these fanatics :mad: :mad: :mad:

Yep, from now on better to do whatever these people say.

[Chief Fox]

My heart goes out to the families of those people injured and killed.

Hopefully one day the human race will realize that violence, war and revenge solve nothing.

[MasterKiller]

Yep, from now on better to do whatever these people say.
Or at least just ask ourselves if bankrolling Isreal is worth all the trouble...

[mickey]

I extend my condolences to the people in the UK. This really sucks.

This is going to become an overt world war. It already is covertly.



mickey

[fa_jing]

Or at least just ask ourselves if bankrolling Isreal is worth all the trouble...


That's cool, blame the Jews.

[@PLUGO]

This news was the very first thing I woke to this morning. Dreadful.

I find myself thinking on how we all as members of the same species are on some level involved in the dynamic that's fostering these occurances...

At least at the moment (or should I say for myself) I'm hoping to avoid the assigning of Blame . . .

[MasterKiller]

That's cool, blame the Jews.
:rolleyes: Oh yeah...I forgot. 9/11 was about terrorists hating freedom, right?

[fa_jing]

:rolleyes: Oh yeah...I forgot. 9/11 was about terrorists hating freedom, right?

Do you think terrorists' actions lend legitimacy to their views?

[Mortal1]

Terrorists are lower than scum. I don't care what their views are. They should all be shot off the planet on a rocket to the sun! They just love killing civilians on their way to work. Those peices of ****!

"Thank you Mr. Blair for sucking us into this mess and making us, like spain, a target for these fanatics "

That is exactly what the terrorists want you to be thinking.

I thank Mr. Blair for sticking with us everyday.

Thank you Mr. Blair.

Finally a leader with some balls.

Spain and their leader can kiss my ass.

[Chief Fox]

Who's worse, the person commiting the acts of terror or the person who uses the emotions generated by those acts of terror to further their political agenda?

[Ford Prefect]

RIP to all the victims.


RIP to all the brain cells that have apparently died in some posters' heads.

[Golden Tiger]

Thank you Mr Blair for sucking us into this mess and making us, like spain, a target for these fanatics :mad: :mad: :mad:

Perhaps you would prefer living like the French.



Or at least just ask ourselves if bankrolling Isreal is worth all the trouble...

They have been hated and persecuted for about 2000 years now, why should we side with them.... :rolleyes:



Oh yeah...I forgot. 9/11 was about terrorists hating freedom, right?


More like the radical Islam hating anything non-radical Islam.



Who's worse, the person commiting the acts of terror or the person who uses the emotions generated by those acts of terror to further their political agenda?

Good thing this happened after both Blair and Bush were elected or else you might trying to say something......

I an not defending the current political policy but for all those that can somehow find a way to blame the innocent in these acts of terrorism, they tick me off just a tad.

How about the next time one of you slams SD, I go after your grand ma? If that doesn't get you to sign up, I hunt down fluffy or spot and hang them from a tree. I will justify it with "guilt by association". If in fact I ever get caught after wiping out all the family pets and relatives, I am just happy to know that you will sit down and try to "understand where I am coming from" and "respect and tolerate" my viewpoint.

Absolutely no offense to the ladies or crossdressers in the crowd but some of you need to put the panties on and STFU! You are not males, don't think like males and sure as heck wouldn't survive if it wasn't for the ones willing to protect you while you sit all comfy infront of your computers getting all drippy when you find a scammed copy of Star wars III on Kazaa. Repub, dem, whatever...if you find a way to justify terrorism then you need to get the **** out.....now! Heck, pull a Johnny Walker and join them. But be prepared for when you meet the Jar Heads face to face.......panty soiling time ladies....

(quietly stepping off my soap box)

[MasterKiller]

Do you think terrorists' actions lend legitimacy to their views?
I think our government lying about their motives undermines the legitmacy of our response.

[Chief Fox]

Good thing this happened after both Blair and Bush were elected or else you might trying to say something......

George bush was reelected after 9/11 and used that event to his advantage throughout his whole campaign. In fact, he's still trying to use 9/11 by trying to tie it to the war in Iraq. He's also used 9/11 to try to get his Patriot Act re-passed.

As far as any military personel go, they have my complete respect and my thanks. I'm talking about the dirty rotten sneaky underhanded politicians who are just as bad as the terrorists, if not worse.

[kungfu cowboy]

It's a sad, disgusting world, and it doesn't have to be like this. :(

[fa_jing]

I think our government lying about their motives undermines the legitmacy of our response.

If our (USA) government told the truth about the terrorists' motives ( more like properly emphasized all factors said to be part of their motives ) I would still expect that debate over whether our government should support Israel would be completely independant of both the actions of the terrorists and the terrorists motives. Which is why I disagree with your trying to tie examination of our support for Israel to terrorist attacks.

[Merryprankster]

fa_jing,

This is the internet. Please stop trying to be rational and make sense.

Thank you.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

my condolances to anyone effected.

[AndyM]

Just a wee thought.

Could those members who want to use this tragedy to enhance their political views perhaps **** off and do it somewhere else?

They haven't even finished counting the bodies yet, and I have a friend unnacounted for, as I'm sure others may do also.

Insensitive **** heads!

[northernArts]

The Globe and Mail(Toronto) has an interactive map (http://www.globeandmail.com/special/londonTerror/) of the attacks, you can see a photo from each location by clicking on the map. The BBC has a photo collection (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4662481.stm) available as well.

[Nick Forrer]

edited and moved to other thread

[AndyM]

To be clear these bombings are a horrendous atrocity and those responsible should be apprehended and charged with murder.

That said IMO there are a few things that this bombing demonstrates along with the Madrid bombing:

1) that for all its stated aims the so called war on terror, that is, the bombing and invasion of Afghanistan has, after 4 years, still not resulted in the capture of Bin Laden and has not diminished the terrorists ability *in any significant way*
to launch attacks against the west. After all you don’t need to go to Afghanistan to learn to make nitro glycerin – all you need is household chemicals, a bath, some basic chemistry knowledge and a recipe that you can get off the internet in 5 minutes.

2) that in fact by participating in the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq, in defiance of the opinion of the majority of the British public the British government have, in all probability, both

a)increased the support for terrorist/radical groups in both the middle east and the west

and

b)increased the chance of Britain being a target (for anyone who doubts this let me know when, say, Estonia or Finland will have their capitals bombed at rush hour)

This is in addition to the fact that these operations have killed thousands of innocent people (as much as 100,000 in Iraq according to London based medical journal The Lancet), scattered AL Q across a wider and much harder to monitor region (and even perhaps created a new base for them in Iraq), brought back to power in Afghanistan a ruthless gang of drug pushers (heroin production has gone back up to what it was pre Taliban), undermined international law, increased global instability, strengthened the perception of the US as a predatory and out of control imperial power, and provided a convenient pretext for tyrannical and corrupt governments to repress domestic political dissent .

Again, the perpetrators of these crimes should be brought to justice. However just as the RAF don’t go and bomb Boston (the source of much republican funding, arms and support) every time a bomb goes off in London, so too should the west think clearly about bombing and invading countries especially where that is done on a false pretext, without a clear UN mandate, and without a clear exit strategy.

And I dont think im being 'insensitive' by pointing these things out. I live in London, use the tube everyday, go to the stations bombed almost everyday (strangely enough to get to MA practice) and could easily have been one of the victims (thankfully im not and again condolences to the families of the victims). If anyone thinks i am being insensitive then i apologise.

Now flame away………..
I doubt there is anyone here whose thought processes haven't gone at least as far as what you have displayed above.
That said.
If you want to talk politics, go do it on a political forum and add your voice to the meaningless hum of the crowd.
Thanks for the meaningless apology.

[Nick Forrer]

Andy

Im sorry that you think my apology is meaningless.

However you are not the moderator nor the person who started this thread: other people have given their opinion, I have given mine. I could have started a different thread but frankly i dont see the point (unless perhaps the person who started this thread expressly requested it which he hasn't).

If i'm making a political point its because i feel this is (inescapably) a political issue.

[AndyM]

Andy

Im sorry that you think my apology is meaningless.

However you are not the moderator nor the person who started this thread: other people have given their opinion, I have given mine. I could have started a different thread but frankly i dont see the point (unless perhaps the person who started this thread expressly requested it which he hasn't).

If i'm making a political point its because i feel this is (inescapably) a political issue.
It's not a political issue, but it is a human, or perhaps humane issue.
The political agenda is your own.
I'd be cool with the political stuff kicking off, if they'd even finished counting body bags yet.
I come on MA forums looking to read about MA.
If I wanted to read underdeveloped rants about politics, policies, terrorism etc, there are plenty of better resources.
Have some ****ing respect for the dead man, let alone those unnaccounted for.

[Royal Dragon]

Can anyone explain "Why" these people are setting off bombs in subways?

I really don't understand it.

[Nick Forrer]

It's not a political issue, but it is a human, or perhaps humane issue The political agenda is your own.

I dont understand this statement. How is it not a political issue? We are dealing with the consequences of the policies of our governments are we not? Isnt that almost the definition of a political issue.
Certainly I have my own opinion just as you have yours. Whether its an agenda or not I dont know. If labeling it helps you dismiss it fine.



I'd be cool with the political stuff kicking off, if they'd even finished counting body bags yet.

So you're cool with political stuff on an issue which is non politial as long as an arbritrary length of time has elapsed? I'm afraid I dont get this statement either. .



I come on MA forums looking to read about MA.

Fine. Dont click on the link that says OT: Explosion in London then. The title is pretty self explanatory.



If I wanted to read underdeveloped rants about politics, policies, terrorism etc, there are plenty of better resources.

Im sure there are. Again people have given their opinion, I have given mine.



Have some ****ing respect for the dead man, let alone those unnaccounted for.


I have nothing but respect and sympathy for them and I take great exception to
your suggestion to the contrary. The points I am making are about lessons we can learn from this and hopefully prevent things like this happening again.

[AndyM]

I dont understand this statement. How is it not a political issue? We are dealing with the consequences of the policies of our governments are we not? Isnt that almost the definition of a political issue.
Come election time, it will be







So you're cool with political stuff on an issue which is non politial as long as an arbritrary length of time has elapsed? I'm afraid I dont get this statement either. .It's really simple. There are undoubtedly members of this forum who have lost friends and relatives in this event.
Ever heard of 'a minutes silence'?
Ever been told there is a 'time and a place' for comment?




Fine. Dont click on the link that says OT: Explosion in London then. The title is pretty self explanatory. Yup, for people concerned for friends in the area.




I have nothing but respect and sympathy for them and I take great exception to
your suggestion to the contrary. Your words speak for themselves. Do yourself and London a favour by shutting your trap.



The points I am making are about lessons we can learn from this and hopefully prevent things like this happening again.
Bob Geldof is taking on apprentices I hear.
I gather the first rule is STFU!

[Radhnoti]

Rest in peace to all the victims of this attack.

[Mr Punch]

You can all kiss my skinny royal arse.

My thoughts go out for the dying and the waiting.

[KC Elbows]

Can anyone explain "Why" these people are setting off bombs in subways?

I really don't understand it.

One reason is that if the perception exists that they can strike anywhere, then their enemies(us) must police everywhere to a higher degree. This stretches our resources thin, because we don't know where they will strike. The hope in Iraq was that we could draw most of them there, thus keeping them contained.

Overly simplistic answer, but there you go.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Just a wee thought.
They haven't even finished counting the bodies yet, and I have a friend unnacounted for, as I'm sure others may do also.



let us know how it goes bud. good luck to both you and your friend.

[SimonM]

Ok guys let's keep political commentary on BOTH sides in another thread. I have never supported the Iraq war but even I have to feel nothing but compassion for the poor people who were just on their way to work one morning and got blown up. My heart goes out to the vicitms of this tragedy.

[Royal Dragon]

That was a good tacticle answer of course, but what I want to know is WHY do they feel the need to do this at all? What motivates them to attacks us in the first place? Obviously the tactics they use accomplish the goal, but I want to know WHY they even have that goal in the first place?

[KC Elbows]

That was a good tacticle answer of course, but what I want to know is WHY do they feel the need to do this at all? What motivates them to attacks us in the first place? Obviously the tactics they use accomplish the goal, but I want to know WHY they even have that goal in the first place?

My opinion is that they operate under the reality that, based on past experience, allowing the US or Britain to have undue influence over their nations has not brought positive experiences to them*. However, their fundamentalism makes it so that they are easy to control by whoever wants to control them, and so they play like freedom fighters, but, were they victorious, would simply be the slaves of new masters,who would probably have the same thirst for the money of the developed world as their old masters. That's about what happened in Iran: we(the US) screwed them, they began hating us, their hatred meshed well with fundamentalism, we lost Iran, arms for hostages ensues.

The difference is that the stakes in Iraq are more direct: to fail to make something good of it would equate to victory in a way withdrawing from Vietnam never was: it would be a blue print for striking at us at will, not just when we attack. Actually, a blueprint for striking at any developed nation at will.

Just my take on it, and only posted here because I don't think anything I said here is particularly provocative toward the horrible bombings in London.


*Not meaning what's going on now, refering to our past in the middle east, and frankly, what country would consider having another country running its politics and economy a win-win situation- we certainly don't allow the interference in our elections that we caused in Iran's when the CIA ran things there.

[stubbs]

Whatever the politics behind this, nothing can justify these kind of acts.

On a smaller note, something I find disgusting, is a lot of the hotels whacked up their prices - some even trebled their prices!
________
Armenian cooking (http://www.cooking-chef.com/armenian/)

[AndyM]

let us know how it goes bud. good luck to both you and your friend.
Just heard from my mate.
He's ok thanks be.

[Nick Forrer]

Andy,

im glad to hear that..

[AndyM]

Andy,

im glad to hear that..

Thanks Nick.

[Merryprankster]

We are dealing with the consequences of the policies of our governments are we not?

Mostly no. It's a common strain of thought though. I can understand why people think this is true. But MOSTLY, no.

[David Jamieson]

Mostly no. It's a common strain of thought though. I can understand why people think this is true. But MOSTLY, no.

uh, how do you figure merry?

[Merryprankster]

I figure this because the ideology and goals of AQ and like-minded organizations has fantastically little to do with you, me, or Western policy.

They are largely of internal origin - internal to Islam. I am not blaming Islam. I am saying that the justification, the ideology, the mindset, is centuries old, circa mid 1200's. You are looking at the modern manifestation of virulent ideas espoused hundreds of years ago. We are merely the latest enemy in a long chain that they believe will not end until the entire world has been converted to THEIR version of Islam.

This does not mean I think that U.S. policy in the ME is particularly good. It means that it doesn't matter what we do at all. We will be their enemy. Britain will be their enemy, etc. You can get attacked now or later.

We can do things better to stem the spread and appeal of AQ and similar ideology (we are not doing a very good job of this). However, this reaches only those who might become terrorists. Those who have already bought in are lost to us. Still, the attacks themselves are hardly a consequence of Western action; they are the inevitable conclusion of a particular version of Islamic thought.

[red5angel]

Royal Dragon, pay attention to what MP is saying and you'll start to understand why terrorist do what they do and in the ways they do it. It starts with fundamental religious beliefs, right or wrong and moves out down a myriad of excuse chains. For each attack you could dig down through plenty of reasons why that group did what they did.



1) that for all its stated aims the so called war on terror, that is, the bombing and invasion of Afghanistan has, after 4 years, still not resulted in the capture of Bin Laden and has not diminished the terrorists ability *in any significant way*

Of course one has to wonder what all those foreign "resistance fighters" in Iraq would be doing if they didn't have to fight a war......

[Merryprankster]

It starts with fundamental religious beliefs


Red - to clarify - who are we talking about here? Plenty of non-religious terrorists out there.

It would be more apropriate to say that it starts with being or becoming a revolutionary. Terrorism is a tactic in a war, used by the weak against the strong. Revolutionaries, said most simply and best by Sergei Nechayev in "Catechism of a Revolutionary" are "doomed men." They care only for their cause. People, equipment, relationships, money, are nothing more than means to and end.

The mistake that people make in the issue of AQ and associated groups is that they impart a political (ie policy) cause and solution where none exists. This is reasonable. It is rational. It is entirely within the western realm of experience and tradition.

It is also wrong. AQ does not - DOES NOT - have a political agenda with an acceptable solution. There is no independence to be granted, no state to form, no action that will satisfy their ultimate goals other than adoption of their entire culture. Any "policy solutions," are stop gap measures - just time for them to gather strength as far as they are concerned.

Put simply, AQ has phrased this war in terms of culture. Consequently, it is a cultural war whether we like it or not.

[Nick Forrer]

'Of course one has to wonder what all those foreign "resistance fighters" in Iraq would be doing if they didn't have to fight a war......'

They'd probably be fighting in the former Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Kashmir or any other place they felt Muslims were being oppressed (just as they did in Afghanistan in the 80s against the Soviets).

[Merryprankster]

They'd probably be fighting in the former Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Kashmir or any other place they felt Muslims were being oppressed

Very much so.

Although I think its safe to say that blowing up Americans and Brits is probably more interesting and energizing to AQ's base than, say, Thailand's paramilitary...

[Merryprankster]

That's great and all Andy - and more Imams need to speak out against this.

But there are millions of people who disagree with both you and him. This is like a Baptist telling a Catholic he's not a real Christian.