Nick Scrima Tournament Videos [Archive]

jwvmn

07-07-2005, 09:28 AM

Hi y'all. I've been lurking for quite awhile and decided I would join the forums .. so hello to the people that I know (you know who you are)

If you're like me at all, you scour the internet looking for MA videos and rarely find anything new ... well I shot some video at Nick's recent tournament and I thought I would share it with anyone who is interested.

On my website is a Wah Lum logo that links to a page where I will put these videos. As of now, I just have the Lion Dance from the opening ceremony, but as I find the time I will put up more videos (If anyone is interested)

I went to the tourney to shoot my fellow Wah Lum students, but I did shoot a wide variety of other styles as well ... but I am not familiar with most of these, so as I add them to my website, feel free to contact me if you know the person doing the form or the style and I will try to add that information.

Also, if you ARE the person doing the form, and you do not wish to be on my website, please let me know and I will remove your video as soon as possible.

Videos are at:

http://www.veeneman.us

Ronin BaBu

07-07-2005, 10:15 AM

Let us know when some forms or sparring is up there. I'll take a look.

jwvmn

07-07-2005, 11:13 AM

Ok, I've added a few forms videos ....

A double broadsword form
A drunken form
A monkey form
An unknown form
and a Whip Chain form

stay tuned for more .......

sean_stonehart

07-07-2005, 07:42 PM

Unknown form == Baji Quan with some Pigua mixed in it I think

Neophyte

07-08-2005, 04:29 AM

Thats some good video there. Nice one.

I did enjoy the whip chain. That was vastly better than mine. Must put some more practice in.

Cheers

Three Harmonies

07-08-2005, 08:00 AM

Thanks for posting the vids! Very nice, but they all look wushu-ish too me no?? Were these traditional divisions?
The unknown form is Baji, I believe he is doing some version of Da Baji with a few extra moves added in (at least in reference to how I learned it, for what it is worth). No Piqua. Again he looked like a wushu player. Moves were Baji, but no power, no expression of Jin. No spinal rotation (kind of important in Baji). Looked pretty though.

Thanks again,
Jake :cool:

jwvmn

07-08-2005, 08:26 AM

All of these videos were of traditional divisions ... there were wushu divisions at the tourney, but I didn't shoot any of them ....

fwiw

sean_stonehart

07-08-2005, 10:40 AM

Jake...so those large swinging down palm slashes weren't a pigua include?

I knew it was Baji, but some of the motions didn't look like Baji I've seen before from Tony Yang in Ohio.

Cool... thanks for the clarification!

Frogman

07-08-2005, 12:00 PM

I think the monkey and drunk forms were in the open division. Not sure about the rope dart but I did see that guy do his form and it was very nice. As for the Baji guy not sure what his back ground is but can tell you his division sat waiting around all day and he most likely didn’t have his energy levels up enough to perform at his norm. I think they should let the old men go first. I mean it was almost time for my nap by the time I was up. Anyway those are really good vids look forward to seeing more. Good job Vman still think you deserve a Nobel prize for your work. Do you have any Mantis clips?

Peace…
fm

Frogman

07-08-2005, 12:26 PM

One more thing I did a seminar with Tony Yang what a cool guy, and an awesome form. Lots of good stuff that weekend. Just for the record they are planning on having it at the same place same time next year.

fm
:)

jwvmn

07-08-2005, 01:24 PM

Ok, I've added a few more videos ....

A couple of 2 handed swords, a monkey stick, a spear form, and a young guy doing a nice mantis form ... i wish I'd started when I was younger .....

http://www.veeneman.us

pingpong

07-08-2005, 01:28 PM

Just for the record they are planning on having it at the same place same time next year.

:)
hehehe. funny stuff frogman ....

mantid1

07-08-2005, 01:56 PM

Thanks for posting the video!

I have to admit, the only one I have used the "save as" function for so far is the kid doing Bung Bu :)

Frogman

07-08-2005, 02:37 PM

It wasn’t meant to be funny, but you can take it how you wish.

:rolleyes:

fm

German Bai Lung

07-08-2005, 03:05 PM

I agree on 3Harmonies statement. it all looks wushu - ish. The double broadsword was really disappointing. A lot of Butterflykicks but no really doublebroadsword techniques ...

I saw this kind of non traditional - traditional forms a lot. Just a catch for the eyes but not really helpful in developing some basic understanding of kung Fu, IMHO.

mantid1

07-08-2005, 03:33 PM

Gbl

What did you think of the mantis form, bung bu I believe?

German Bai Lung

07-08-2005, 03:45 PM

Mantid1: it´s weird with me, see: I really enjoyed the monkey forms. The guy was great in move like a monkey and was a great athlete.
But for the mantis form: I hate seeing people doing Mantis forms for the show. EG: Tong Long Bou Sim - double Mantis Hook. It´s a sincere technique with some great applications. So why reduce it to showelements? Nothing wrong with doing forms slow(er) and with crisp and coordinated hand/footwork. But I don´t like the posing in stances far too long ....

All in all: the kid is doing great, but I don´t like the interpretation of the Bang Bo with all that posing and hoping in it ... sorry, but anyway just my opinion!

Three Harmonies

07-08-2005, 03:58 PM

None of it looked traditonal to me.

I am no authority on Baji nor Piqua so I cannot say for sure. I learned Baji from TOny Yang and like you said, it looks nothing like what he does. Reason....Tony knows how to issue the power! Piqua movements are usually more open and bigger, but again I do not know. It looked like Da Baji, but he added some things into it.

Cheers
Jake :cool:

mantid1

07-08-2005, 04:12 PM

GBL

no need to be sorry. Just wanted your opinion.

Do you think it was changed for the tournament or is it from a different style of mantis than you are used to seeeing. It seemed to have the 7* bung bu base.

It would be great to find out what school the kid was from.

Ronin BaBu

07-08-2005, 06:04 PM

A big problem with this tournement is that it is very unorganized.
Last year I attended the tournement with my Kung Fu brother, and we were shocked to enter the TRADITIONAL mantis forms section only to see jumping and flipping all over the place. So, to keep up with the competition I added a few flips to my form, but I was very unhappy. One of the older, oriental judges started yelling at people because they were doing Wushu in the traditional forms area. But, for how large the tournement is, what can you expect?

We need some more huge tourneys like this.

yu shan

07-08-2005, 07:26 PM

Jochen

Unfortunatley here in the USA, forms are "changed" and "spiced" up for tournaments. Thus the so called traditional Mantis group seeing a display of fantastic aerials with screams/yells/yees with of course the lenghty pretty posing. All this does no good for the guy/gal doing the real traditional Mantis forms. The traditional forms are what they are, no more no less. These are wonderful forms but need to be kept in a group within themselves and not grouped with the ones who have to make their so-called Mantis into wushu. There needs to be a seperate division (especially in Florida) for so-called Mantis groups who have to alter their forms to make exciting and flashy. And Ronin, it has nothing to do with how large the tournament was, it has to do with politics! politics=I have more students than you and you play by my rules, or I pull all my students out and you have nothing.

jwvmn

07-08-2005, 08:16 PM

I humbly request that if anyone wants to dissect forms, traditional vs. non-traditional, politics, school vs. school -- then please start another thread and leave this one for discussion of the videos posted.

It will keep this thread less unwieldy for those trying to find new videos.

Thanks.

Lu Bu

07-08-2005, 10:20 PM

I did not like it, and I disagree that what he performed was traditional, also. At one point that was Beng Bu, but he Wushu-ized it ad nauseaum and what was up with the pauses? Oh wait, I know...."waiting for his opponent to get up off the floor", that's it. :rolleyes: Glad to know I didn't miss anything at the tournament.

Three Harmonies

07-08-2005, 11:07 PM

jwvmn
This is about the videos.... you mention you only taped the traditional divisions, yet the overwhleming majority believe it to be wushu. This is a recurring problem at tourneys, and few stand up for it. Steve Cottrell runs a tight division and tolerates no wushu in traditional divisions.
So I think it is relevent. :D

Jake :cool:

German Bai Lung

07-09-2005, 02:41 AM

We used to had the same Problems in the past on some tourneys. A lot of people changed their forms or even just performed a wushu-form on a traditional kung fu tourney. Most of the time they were the winners and the real traditional people get disappointed.

We got now a good and great tourney for traditional Kung Fu were those things no longer happen. It seems that their are enough traditional Kung Fu schools in germany, which didn´t change their forms for shows perposes. Also the judges get instructed to judge the performence of the forms without judging the number of aerials. (I know that, because I use to be judge there too) So if one wants to perform his form with a lot of kicks and aerials he can, but he didn´t win automatically when another one performs a traditional form better ...
Of course not always the judging is really fair. Their are judges who judge their own students better etc .. but this kind will never stop as long as people got egos ....

But all in all it´s a good tourney for traditional Kung Fu and the wushu-ish forms gets less and less each year!

The Bang Bo on the Vid got a lot of 7* elements but was sadly changed for the show ...

mantid1

07-09-2005, 06:08 AM

I think the bung bu was changed, but waht he did was very clean and crisp. Who would you score better that kid or someone who does traditional bung bo sloppy? He didnt put any aerials in the form just changed it up some. I know he could do the traditioal better than me even though he is a kid :) That may be traditional to his school. Who knows?

I know one thing. If you get video of steve Cotrell, Yushan, 3 Harmonies,108 and GBL doing bung bo, I can guarantee that they will be different. Which one of these guys will be the auhtority on what is traditional? Which one of their teachers stayed with tradition and which teachers departed from it?

I didnt like the rest of the wushu stuff because I did not feel the technique was clean or crisp enough amoung many other reasons.

I dont like people adding three butterfly kicks in a form either. Other than developing strength, flexibility and coordination for training, they have no usefull application. We could only hope the guy we will be fighting does alot of butterfly kicks :)

Shirkers

I am not trying to be negative just playing devils advocate. I have nothing but respect for the above mentioned people. I am sure that there bung bo performance would be better than mine.

But go ahead hammer me anyway, I know you cant help it :)

jwvmn

07-11-2005, 07:59 AM

I've had several (!) people ask me if I would host their videos on my website and I've tried to answer each personally, but let me just put it out there ... yes, if anyone wants to send me videos they have shot, I will put them on my site when I get a chance. Just try to make sure they are decent quality :) Windows media or quicktime files.

jwvmn

07-11-2005, 08:52 AM

Ok, I've put more videos up ....

A tiger fork, a monkey spear, and a bunch of stuff I don't know what the heck it is ... so help me out and identify it ok? :)

http://www.veeneman.us

mantid1

07-11-2005, 09:30 AM

unknown 2 - Hug ga tiger crane or a version of it

4 - like an eagel claw form or at least it looks like one by the way it is performed

Mok Ga tiger fork

It looks like they let a monkey put the spear together :)

shirkers1

07-11-2005, 09:46 AM

I know one thing. If you get video of steve Cotrell, Yushan, 3 Harmonies,108 and GBL doing bung bo, I can guarantee that they will be different. Which one of these guys will be the auhtority on what is traditional? Which one of their teachers stayed with tradition and which teachers departed from it?

I dont like people adding three butterfly kicks in a form either. Other than developing strength, flexibility and coordination for training, they have no usefull application. We could only hope the guy we will be fighting does alot of butterfly kicks :)

Shirkers

I am not trying to be negative just playing devils advocate. I have nothing but respect for the above mentioned people. I am sure that there bung bo performance would be better than mine.

But go ahead hammer me anyway, I know you cant help it :)

mantid1 I agree if you put two guys from the same family but different teachers and it will look different. I'm not a tourney guy and I hate to perform in front of people period so I have no clue how to judge the forms in a traditional sense. Unless there is a set guideline as to what is being judged before hand then you will know what to do in the form.. Like power, speed, fluidity, etc.... I can do the form fast at real speed with power.. but the non mantis guy isn't going to be able to pick up on what's going on a lot of the times. Or I can do it slow but still having power and even the average person might be able to make out what's going on... I don't think anything should be added for "Show" or to spice up a form period if it's going to be concidered traditional.... If I was a judge and someone added some kickups and crap to a traditional form no matter how good it was I'd give him very low points just because it wasn't traditional.

I don't think what you said was off base at all... So no need to look over your shoulder at what I have to say.. :)

shirkers1

07-11-2005, 10:00 AM

As for the mantis video.

the kid was quick and it was bung bo but I just get flustered when I see stuff where you know it's for show and the performer doesn't have a clue what he's doing tactic wise in the set. Just my opinion but traditionally I'd say the set has to make combative sense. The majority of that was flash and no meat to me.

mantid1

07-11-2005, 10:10 AM

My point is no one knows if the form is altered from they way it was taught. Who knows it may have been taught in that family that way for the last 70 years.

If they did add to the kids mantis form it wasnt the flashy stuff like butterfly kicks, and splits. I dont think it hurt the form. I dont have a problem with the extra foot work, and it would probably be a good idea to notice what is going on around you once in a while if you are in a fight. And yes there may be a pause in a fight from time to time.

I would have looked at the kids stances, focus, speed, timing, power and intent. Seems to me he was very clean and crisp and probably would have done the traditional bung bo better than most (if that wasnt traditional for him). If he had a butterfly kick in there I would just ignore it. That kind of stuff never brings up a score for me.

Oso

07-11-2005, 10:20 AM

Anyone got any thoughts on the two 2-handed sword sets?

Isn't that a bagua weapon?

Bung Bu, certainly take this with a grain of salt since I've been doing bung bu for barely a year and a half, but...where was the crushing/crashing?????? Changes could be made to the specific movements but when the flavor is gone.......

Brad

07-11-2005, 10:29 AM

In trad. forms competition it's up to the judges to be diciplined enough to ignore flash and see the basic princibles underneath. If they want to waste energy on unnecesary flash, then they should be allowed too (only hurts themselves). The exception is if they're doing a form where there's clearly another division for what they're doing (like if they do Yu Hai's modern mantis form when there's clearly a modern wushu division). This is all asuming the judges know what they're doing. If they don't then the final standing are pretty pointless anyway of course ;) I think you can't just restrict people to old trad. forms though, because no one can memorize every variation of every branch. But you can look to see if the way the form is put together makes since, and if they're following traditional kungfu basics.

shirkers1

07-11-2005, 10:38 AM

Point taken.. Like I said I'm no tourney guy.. never had much use for showing my forms so I don't know how they judge these events.. That is why I said it would depend on the criteria of the comp itself as to what is being judged in the form.

I myself would prefer to judge individually then again as a whole after seeing everyone.. Because one could get a low score for being first but after seeing everyone else go that first guy that had the low score could have been the best one there and deserve 1st place. ;)

If I were to judge on taste alone he would have scored low with me.. although the kid was quick and athletic. As oso said the essence of the form wasn't there. The speed didn't = power in his case... just speed. In bung bo momentum is where a lot of the power is coming from as well as body torque. Although he was crisp and looked okay, his little hops were annoying and took away from the form, the jump kicks I've never seen in bung bo from any one's line so that to me would have been added for show and I found it annoying. The double arm grabs having an upward motion shows me that the kid didn't really know how the tactic is applied, as well as some other things in the form performed a certain way but I can't remember specifically off hand what they were... So to me they were just for show and not really there for applied purposes which is what "traditional" forms are to me. Once again just my personal taste and I'm not a tourney guy so go easy on me.

sean_stonehart

07-11-2005, 10:50 AM

Ok, I've put more videos up ....

A tiger fork, a monkey spear, and a bunch of stuff I don't know what the heck it is ... so help me out and identify it ok? :)

http://www.veeneman.us

Unknown #2 -- Hung Ga mixed set... saw pieces of Tid Sin Kuen, Fu Hok, etc... I think I've seen somebody kinda famous do that grouping on a demo video once... :eek:

Unknown #3 -- dunno... Some long fist something or another...

Unknown #4 -- Eagle Claw... Small Cotton Palm maybe??

Unknown #5 -- mish mash looking thing of Northern/Southern/Wushu/Animals all blended together

Brad

07-11-2005, 10:55 AM

Anyone got any thoughts on the two 2-handed sword sets?

Isn't that a bagua weapon?
A classmate of mine visited some liu he mantis people in Qingdao a few years ago (Tony Yang hooked him up) and came back with a mantis two handed sword form.

mantid1

07-11-2005, 11:22 AM

oso

The crashing may be missing A bit, I think he did great for a KID.

SHIRKERS

You have never seen a jump kick in bung bo? What version of bung bu do you practice?

Brad

07-11-2005, 11:28 AM

The second two handed sword form is a modern form created by Yu Cheng Hui (evil general from the original Shaolin Temple movie) and is the "official" two handed sword form for modern wushu competition. I know a lot of Wah Lum guys do this because aparently Yu Cheng Hui and Chan Pui are friends. It looks like the guy doing the form changed a few things slightly (adding some hopping and dramatizing it a bit more). Even though it's "modern wushu" the form is very down to earth (no acrobatics, only brief pauses, etc.) The footwork is supposed to be swift and agile, but grounded. I really like the form but really can't stand watching people do it. After studying YCH on video everyone else looks kind of bad by comparison :D

shirkers1

07-11-2005, 11:34 AM

hong kong 7* sorry yes the one jump kick with the eye poke but not like his.. with the crane style after wards... The way he does it is like our kicks in chop choi.

http://shirkers.freewebpage.org

This is how we do it. Although done slow and each movement broken on purpose to see the individual tactics but you get the idea.

Brad

07-11-2005, 11:42 AM

5th video is some sort of combination of generic chang quan, nan quan, ditang quan, eagle claw (modern it looks like... I don't know what traditional is like, though), and probably a couple other random things thrown in there. It's really really wierd :confused:

mantid1

07-11-2005, 12:15 PM

Shirkers I can never get your clips to play for me. I must be doing something wrong.

Thanks for the try though.

shirkers1

07-11-2005, 12:22 PM

Sorry man... if you right click save target as to your desktop, it should play in your media player... Whether you have quicktime, windows or real player as your default player...

If you try to just watch the vids by left clicking on them it takes forever. So it's best to just save them and watch them that way...

Frogman

07-11-2005, 12:47 PM

Didn’t work for me either even after saving to my desk top, will try again later. I have seen some of your clips before and didn’t have any problems. So I’m sure it will work. There was a lot of stuff that didn't seem to make sense to me, lot of jumping around and not leading from one move to the next. No flow if you will, lack of power on the end of the attack, seemed weird to me too… but I’m am no one to talk the fork speaks volumes. Thanks Vman! For all it’s worth this is only a hand full of the hundreds of people competing, there was a lot of solid stuff going on as well. I think in all the tournament was pretty cool…

phoenix-eye

07-11-2005, 12:54 PM

Unknown Form 2 is actually Hung Gar's Ng Ying Kuen (5 animals form) with sections ommitted to shorten it for competition. Particularly from the opening "dragon" section.

Previous posters were pretty close as 5 animals is very similar to Tiger and Crane form and the dragon section is fairly similar to Tid Sin Kuen.

No.4 is eagle claw as sean said - I have seen this form from lili/gini lau school before but can't remember the name.

Suspect no.5 is some sort of eagle claw as well

Good vids.

Thanks!

Oso

07-11-2005, 01:04 PM

mantid1: sure, I'm not trying to beat the kid up...he was very tight in his movement....what I saw that seemed off to me was the three steps before the palm strike at the beginning of the first road. Shouldn't that footwork be tied to handwork and not the handwork coming after the foot work?

traditional or modern there seems to be body linking missing.

mantid1

07-11-2005, 01:49 PM

Oso

I think the two extra steps could just be closing the gap. I would have to see their ling side to say for sure. That may be the starting point and the form side may be moving in attacking the ling side. How does your ling set apply this technique?

Thanks

Lu Bu

07-11-2005, 03:31 PM

mantid1

Wah Lum does not have a two person Beng Bu form, the form that kid did was a spiced up version of their Beng Bu, "Big Mantis".

Ou Ji

07-11-2005, 03:52 PM

Definitely not Wah Lum Big Mantis.

Lu Bu

07-11-2005, 04:57 PM

You sure? It looks like a mutilated Big Mantis to me... :confused:

Ou Ji

07-11-2005, 05:18 PM

The only Big Mantis moves in there are the ones that are the same as Bung Bo. The ones that differ from BB are not there at all. Some angles are different than BM but consistant with 7* BB.

Seems obvious to me that someone jazzed up BB for show and left the apps out. I'm sure the kid doesn't have a clue and is just doing what he was taught the way he learned it.

I'll defer to the experts like Tainan Mantis, Mantis 108 and the others.

Oso

07-11-2005, 06:15 PM

mantid1: could be closing the gap, I'll agree with that.

each of our steps coincides with a defense or attack...no movement forward that isn't crowding the ling side...we play our 2 man very close to each other...I feel we are contantly 'tagging', 'following' and 'leaning' throughout the set...I've not seen anyone else's BB 2 Man but in other two person I've seen the two people are very far apart...to far to really be throwing an effective attack.

I agree with Ou Ji, the kid is probably doing exactly what he was taught and very well.

mantid1

07-11-2005, 07:21 PM

Oso

I agree. Many two person sets are done way to far apart. Most of the time the practitioners would not be close enough for positive contact with the technique at full extension. That is a hard one to get through to the students with.

Your ling bung bo sounds great. Is there anyway your could post a clip of it? It would be great to see.

I think there is a clip of hk bung bo ling set on the mantis quarterly video site. It is black and white but still nice to watch. You could check it out and see how it compares to yours.

CLFNole

07-11-2005, 07:28 PM

Monkey Spear ???????

When will it all end.

Shaolin Dude

07-12-2005, 12:28 AM

Mok Ga tiger fork

that's a wah lum form right? I think this is the same form sifu mai du practiced in class.

that kid trains in calvin chin's school. I've seen him perform this form in yao li's tournament

Frogman

07-12-2005, 05:11 AM

Yes Wah Lum tiger fork, but Grandmaster Chan’s family style is Mok Gar so mantid1 may be right… I will be sure to ask today.
;)

fm

yu shan

07-12-2005, 07:46 AM

The tiger fork form in video is the form I know, he left out a few things though. We always called it just tiger fork. Looks like they have tiger fork 1 thru 4 now.

Frogman

07-13-2005, 10:05 AM

The tiger fork is an awesome weapon and a lot of fun to play. Would not fight a tiger with one, think I might use it to make sure the tiger is dead after I’ve unloaded a full clip in its a$$. Just want to poke it a few times make sure it doesn’t move. This is a Mok Gar form it is also a left handed form. I have seen some of my Sihings do a right handed tiger fork which is similar flavor but is definitely different. The only thing left out was the beginning which starts with the weapon on the ground, and the prancing towards the end. I did the same form last year w/ the prancing.

fm

:)

fuhok-kid

07-31-2005, 01:33 AM

hi everybody. I've been really enjoying the comments on this thread and wanted to add my 2 cents. As far as the whip chain is concerned, it's definately a wushu form. I have the same form except sequence of some of the movements is in different places. As for the mantis video, shoalin dude is right. That kid trains at calvin chins in Newton,ma. I should know cause I used to train there too. Still do whenever I can find the time to drive 2hours from springfield,ma. The main style of the school is hung gar(lam sai wing) lineage, but we have a few northern forms that were taught to our late sigung(Kwang tit fu) That bung bu form was one of them. It is very traditional and that kid did not add anything to it. Granted he moved a little fast and some of his hand techiques were blurred, but he did the form as it was taught to us by sifu Calvin Chin. The school only recently added a wushu curriculum, but when I learnt that form almost 6yrs ago, there was no wushu and I learnt the same form. I had always been curious which branch of the mantis family it came from. I currently do wah lum/choy lay fut/wushu at my current school and I've come to know there is no bung bu form in wah lum. My currently sifu doesn't even recognize that form, but back to the topic, that bung bu is very traditional to my understanding. It might have been altered a bit before our sifu or si-gung got it but I know it has no wushu influence. Someone mentioned it resembled the one from 7* . If anyone has a clip of bung bu from any other mantis styles, I would very much like to see it. I enjoy comparing the same forms from different lineages and seeing how similar of different it looks.
Well that 's my 2 cents. Great thread!

fuhok-kid

07-31-2005, 02:11 AM

one more thing, Unknown form 4 is definately eagle claw small cotton palm(siu min geung). I thing i butchered the spelling :confused: recognized it from my eagle claw days.

Radplaiddude

08-01-2005, 12:03 AM

enjoyed the videos regardless of what style. Man that kid and kis monkey kung fu. Save that stuff for the young. After a set like that i would have needed some serious rehab. Hats off to the kid.

HungKuenPride

05-01-2007, 02:43 PM

The Bang Bo on the Vid got a lot of 7* elements but was sadly changed for the show ...

The kid's from my school (Calvin Chin's Martial Arts Academy), and that's actually how we do beng bu. It's the Hung Kuen version which is similar to the 7-star one, but varies at some places. Granted, he removed some of the shuffling and flourishing, but that's probably just a lineage difference.