Horizontal fist in WC

[bonetone]

I know a lot of you guys will say the energy isn't right with the horizontal fist. However, when executing a punch directly from fook sau, jut sau, bong sau, etc. isn't the horizontal fist even more efficeint than the vertical fist punch? Giving the fist the extra quarter turn from these postions to punch with a vertical fist is almost like the full karate punch rotation, which has been called less efficeint by more than a few. I'm not trying to troll here, I'm trying to get some honest opinions about this. i personally like to mix up horizontal and vertiacal fists(and other punches), and sometimes keep my chin tucked, other times keep the head back. I don't think any style should be confined to such geometric limitations as always keeping the fist vertical. Maybe that's only the way wing chun is taught to beginers, but I prtetty much was only trained through chum kui, and have just worked on SLT and my own experiences since then. I'm sure I'm not the only one to have these thoughts, so probably nothing new, just thought I'd bring it up.

[nojack]

Remember to utilize what you have learned, set no limitations, is up to you when you can or will apply it.

[Ali Rahim]

My opinion is that the Jik-Chun or “Sun Punch” is stronger,, for these reasons… When using the horizontal fist you always use the first two knuckles or top knuckles of the punch… If you take your finger and draw a line straight down towards the wrist on the back of your fist starting from the second knuckle of the fist,, you will see that there is hardly any support from the wrist or forearm,, and by the elbow not being dipped,, there is no chum or sinking energy,, and the punch can sometimes be easily pull or blocked…

The Jik-Chun or “Sun Punch” uses the bottom 3 knuckles… The wrist must remain straight when executing the punch… When using the bottom 3 knuckles,, the top 2 knuckles line up automatically with the bottom 3 upon contact with the target,, when done correctly… If you take your finger and draw a line beginning with the 2nd knuckle down towards the wrist and straight down the forearm,, you will see that you have 10 times more support of the forearm and elbow by using the bottom 3 knuckles to line up the punch… That’s just my opinion and also the opinion of Woo Fai Ching…

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[Liddel]

I agree with Mr Rahim.
Futhermore
VT teaches us to use elbow power for the most part right ? (maybe not for some)
You loose elbow power because you derive power from another source with a horizontal punch (from the turning as you mention), but a good VT student may be able to draw more power from thier elbow than the power generated from the turning wrist...because our forms promote these actions.
It depends what suits you in MO. (also excluding inch power/body mechanincs of the wrist)

I think a good exponent of both may find that Jik Chun also takes less time.
(even though it may only be a fraction of a second)

Also another point that hasnt been made, when an opponents guard is tight (not too many wholes) you need to use the space you have especially when in close contact and Jik-chun requires less space to get through. It can slip small gaps.
Just one positive point that Jik-Chun can exploit.

In my mind there is a time and a place for everything.

[XINDU]

My opinion is that the Jik-Chun or “Sun Punch” is stronger,, for these reasons… When using the horizontal fist you always use the first two knuckles or top knuckles of the punch… If you take your finger and draw a line straight down towards the wrist on the back of your fist starting from the second knuckle of the fist,, you will see that there is hardly any support from the wrist or forearm,, and by the elbow not being dipped,, there is no chum or sinking energy,, and the punch can sometimes be easily pull or blocked…

The Jik-Chun or “Sun Punch” uses the bottom 3 knuckles… The wrist must remain straight when executing the punch… When using the bottom 3 knuckles,, the top 2 knuckles line up automatically with the bottom 3 upon contact with the target,, when done correctly… If you take your finger and draw a line beginning with the 2nd knuckle down towards the wrist and straight down the forearm,, you will see that you have 10 times more support of the forearm and elbow by using the bottom 3 knuckles to line up the punch… That’s just my opinion and also the opinion of Woo Fai Ching…

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)Good post I love your website. Excellent chi sao demonstration with Phillip Redmond.

[anerlich]

Jack Dempsey advocates the vertical fist in his book and gives as good an explanation for its use as any, along the lines given above.

The boxing jab gives arguably better protection to the head while punching, the WC vertical fist gives better body protection with the elbow down.

There's no rule that says you have to use the top two knuckles in a horizontal punch. You can use the bottom three.

IMO the horizontal fist gives a better striking angle if hitting downward to the body; it's a bit hard to hit a vertical surface with the bottom three knuckles when you're punching at a downward angle.

Of course, a boxing trainer would insist you change levels with your stance and punch horizontally to a low target anyway, making that argument academic.

If you want to be sure, get some equipment and MEASURE power output. And what works for someone else may not work as well for you.

Why is the WC fist vertical, when you can use multiple hand configurations for the palm? and reasons other than wrist / power line alignment?

[bonetone]

Basic biu jee palm down strikes are the same as horizontal fist, except your hand is open. Its hard to punch someone's throat and other tight areas with vertial fist.

[Sam]

In Fut Sao Wing Chun we use all types of fists. The reasoning is that we hit many points with different knuckles. We use a loose hand with a whipping motion as well as power punches. Certain techniques need specific fist formations in order to enter and attack vital points. James Cama Sifu is known for his power and technical expertise in fist formations and power punching. http://www.futsaoyongchunkuen.com/

[Mr Punch]

I think Ali and anerlich pretty much nailed it.


Basic biu jee palm down strikes are the same as horizontal fist, except your hand is open. So, that means, they're not the same as horizontal fists, it means they're palms! :D

Eg, I can use a palm against your forehead, but I don't want to punch you there using a horizontal fist. I can palm your nose, but if I'm using a fist, I'd prefer the vertical than the horizontal so I can drive it up or down on the way in, and so I have less chance of catching a hard part of your skull and getting the boxers' fracture.


Its hard to punch someone's throat and other tight areas with vertial fist.It's hard to punch somebody's throat full stop. What makes you think it's harder with a vertical fist?

[azwingchun]

We use both actually. Just as you don't use an erect palm to someone's abdomen, we don't use a vertical fist there either (very unnatural and too much of a bend in the wrist for either).

We follow the rule that as the hand moves down the torso (whether it a palm or fist) is turns. This movement for us starts just about the midline for both palms and fist. Once at the lower abdomen it is a horizontal fist. The movement for the fist is in towards center and the palm is out away from center as it moves downward.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I was taught that the quality of the fist has to match the quality of the target.

With the assumption that you're standing face-to-face with a similar sized opponent:

If you're punching someone's bladder, doing so with a vertical fist is awkward. Using a palm down horizontal fist is easier. If you're aiming for the ribs, Solar plexus, diaphragm, or kidneys, a palm up horizontal fist (sometimes known as an "uppercut") works well. From the sternum to the throat, vertical punches efectively come into play - other punches in this area aren't as effective at stopping, dropping, or launching your opponent. From the throat and above, the vertical, horizontal and ginger fists can manifest efficiently. In a way, it depends what target you're aiming for... are you trying to crush the nose, the cheekbone or the jaw?


Au Revoir,
CSP

[azwingchun]

Agreed 100%! My post was a generalization at most, as opponent's height and positioning can also change things. The uppercut being just another tool and example of this.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

opponent's height and positioning can also change things.

One of Wing Chun's contributions to all of this is the low elbow principle. It can be present with any kind of fist shape. Just keep the elbow down and in front, and you can strike with whatever shape you want. Ideally, it should be the shape that is most suited to the situation, but what will be will be.

CSP

[azwingchun]

Agree again!

[Mr Punch]

Just reread Ali's post and I'd misread it before...

Just to say, although, if you train it it's a good penetrating strike to punch to downward targets with the top two knuckles of a vertical twist (make one and check the straight wrist structure out - perfect for extra penetration on soft targets like stomach/bladder)... I also use the horizontal fist downward. Sometimes the elbow position in that drive down is actaully better protection than with the vertical.

[lawrenceofidaho]

I also use the horizontal fist downward. Sometimes the elbow position in that drive down is actaully better protection than with the vertical.
When your elbow is acting as a downward wedge on top of someone's forearm at the same time as you are hitting them in the belly (or bladder), it is a very cool (and safe!) feeling.

-Lawrence

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, sure. That would be an optimal position.

But when all things are equal, especially when fighting someone who doesn't come from a non-sparring Chinese style and will automatically be pulling their arm back as soon as they've punched, it's very very difficult to achieve.

That's when you need to follow their arm back as they retract, to exploit the opening they will probably leave to their body... and on the inside in this situation a somewhat round-elbowed downward-palmed horizontal punch will defend your centreline and open theirs much better when punching downward, IME.