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SevenStar
07-08-2005, 12:08 PM
In response to the thread you created then deleted, I deleted it, not hskwarrior. it was inappropriate. And, names were called out of people who did not give express permission to be named. If you read the sticky threads on this forum, it states that such posts/threads will not be tolerated.

hskwarrior
07-08-2005, 01:04 PM
sevenstar is right he deleted the thread, but not before i went in and erased my own comments because i realized no matter what transpired between my sifu and him and for whatever his decisions to stop practicing under "MR. Salvatera (somewhere he has lost his title i guess) as he and his students put it is not anyone's business, but i was ****ed when i heard what i did, and i took it out openly and basically only "spilled the beans" about the guy but it didn't turn out like that.

See, negativity seems to run through the veins of the characters on this forum. They seem to come to life at someone esle's expense. Instead of expressing concern, or curiosity, you people are quick to try and tear someone down without seeing the whole picture. It doesn't matter who is wrong or right, as long as you get to jump in on it and talk a bunch of mess from behind computer screens.

I would have never posted my post on here if his email addresses were not terminated. that was my mistake, and that is why i deleted my own post, because it didn't concern a bunch of nutcases (not all of you are nuts, just some HAHA!).

frank

sean_stonehart
07-08-2005, 01:23 PM
Frank... there's nothing wrong with his email address. Use the yahoo one you used the last time there was something on your mind.

If you don't have it or can't remember it, you can find it on the new website.

hskwarrior
07-08-2005, 01:43 PM
naw, that's cool sean. i tried a few and they came back to me as failed. but you got the message to him anyways, and like i said, what's done is done, let's move on and i hope you guys do pretty well out there. i'm too old to hold grudges against people.

if you can get a message to him for me........"no hard feelings, personally i knew this would happen and it did, so i am not too shocked. Sorry it turned out that way, just do your thing and i'm going to keep doing mine. Take care of yourself and your family. maybe will see you in future at atlanta braves, dude. "



frank

Fu-Pow
07-08-2005, 03:03 PM
In response to the thread you created then deleted, I deleted it, not hskwarrior. it was inappropriate. And, names were called out of people who did not give express permission to be named. If you read the sticky threads on this forum, it states that such posts/threads will not be tolerated.

The baby got thrown out with the bath water. IMNSHO, this forum has died a slow death because of over-moderation.

hskwarrior
07-08-2005, 03:49 PM
wha...wha...wha.....the hell? Someone threw out a baby along with the baby's bathwater? Who was that? They must be smoking crack. Call CPS and let's moderate his little rumpshaker......

SevenStar
07-08-2005, 06:05 PM
The baby got thrown out with the bath water. IMNSHO, this forum has died a slow death because of over-moderation.

which in my opinion is fine. I'd rather have the fewer yet meaningful discussions that are present than the hundreds of trolling / inflammatory posts that were present when I came on board. The stricter moderation ran off a lot of the trouble makers, which is great - I did a good job, IMNSHO

Eddie
07-09-2005, 01:59 PM
Over moderation is NEVER a good thing. Its right up there with Mogabe’s Government Censorship of Press policy. Our opinions on “ Troublemaker” might differ, and we might not agree on what you consider “meaningful posts”. I fear that you may not have only chased away the so called “ troublemakers”, but also many others, which is why there was a definite down grading of these forums. The people who practice martial arts usually have such a passion for what they do and for their styles or schools. When people have passion, there sure will be differences in opinions. These different opinions often brought us great posts, and while I agree they often got a bit out of hand, many of these posts had allot of valuable information for us. After all, this is why these forums are here. To exchange ideas and to get to know the broader martial arts community. Not just to promote the company who sponsor these forums, and defiantly not to entertain the moderators’ power fetish (I say this not aiming at anyone, its just a general statement of forums in general).

Im afraid Fu Pow is right. Ever since the over moderation started happening, these forums have become pretty boring, and often pretty useless. I have nothing against you sevenstar, please don’t see this in that way. You seem to be the type of person I’d really get along with in everyday life. But if I compare many of the moderators with someone like Gene (for eg), Gene is allot more open minded, tolerant and mature in his ways (talking moderation here) than many others. It is almost as if the moderators have no respect for the people who post here. When posts gets deleted, it takes allot away from the credibility of the forum. We are not children anymore, and I shudder at the idea that one person (ie a moderator) has the authority to simply delete any posts which he/she thinks is not suited. The idea of censorship scares the living daylights out of me.

I suggest do what other forums do. NO DELETE policy and create a dumping ground where the posts that you normally would delete are moved to. Forums in the dumping ground can not be replied to, but is still there for all to see. This way, we all win, and those posts (and often flames) are still available for us analyse junkies to study the content looking for some valuable info.

BTW- I didn’t see the topic with fu pow and hskwarrior you are referring to, my comments are just in general.

Fu-Pow
07-09-2005, 05:27 PM
NO DELETE policy and create a dumping ground where the posts that you normally would delete are moved to. Forums in the dumping ground can not be replied to, but is still there for all to see. This way, we all win, and those posts (and often flames) are still available for us analyse junkies to study the content looking for some valuable info.

Good point Eddie.

In the case of hsk's post it was an obvious slam on somebody but there were larger issues that were raised. Namely, how do you promote in your school and who do you let open a school under your name? I thought that thread had potential.

But...oh well....what do I know? :confused:

Eddie
07-10-2005, 09:26 AM
Im completely in the dark here with that issue, cause I never saw the threat, and the curiosity drives me insane, but Its ok.

The subject you mention, would make a good topic. If the mods can allow posts like " I get to train a pornstar" maybe the " fewer yet meaningful discussions" policy has been relaxed a bit.

So Fu Pow, why dont you just start a new threat?

hskwarrior
07-10-2005, 10:06 AM
i wanna clear something up.

fu pow, initially when that student came over to sf from his homestate he wanted to learn our CLF. For some time my sifu wanted to expand our lineage into different states. Originally that student was to learn at a very slow pace. since he already had a good amount of previous martial arts background he never really needed to be trained in martial arts, just CLF. He wa only supposed to be an instructor under us in that state. My sifu was going to be in control of everything.

Now that student was not just some square from around the way, he actually had some time in another style. Since the student wanted to open his own school
we decided to help him out, meanwhile we could set up one of our branches out there At first his learning our clf was to be a very slow and normal process (1-2 sets a year with regular visits and intense training under my sifu).

*****PLS, LETS KEEP HIS NAME OUT OF THIS, WHAT'S DONE IS DONE AND I HAVE NO NEED TO DISRESPECT HIM*************************

However, this student somehow lost track of his focus or originally had foul intentions in the first place. Certain events took place that made me step back and keep an eye on him. Now, I am very, very, very close with my sifu. I am almost 37yrs old now and I have been with him since i was 13 yrs old. so to set the mood, I lost my mother in early 1980 (35yrs old) and by the time i turned 15 my father had put me and my younger brother in foster homes. The Tien Loong Gung Fu was the only place i felt at home, choy lee fut was the only thing i felt i knew well, and my sifu was more of a father to me than my own ever was. naturally i will protect my sifu at all costs.

basically he broke all the rules of our organization and as a senior student and his senior classmate by more than 20 years it was my duty to say something. the only thing was i tried his emails and they weren't operable. so out of anger i posted what i posted and over night realised what the hell, this is not their problem and i felt if i told this forum then the beans would be spilled. but it wasn't anyones business, so i deleted my post.

in ending, we wanted to expand, took a chance and it backfired. Lesson learned and that will never happen again. In my groups of students in Kansas, SF, and texas i run a tight ship and they willingly follow the rules. if i don't advance them for 6 months they wait patiently. no problem, they just keep perfecting until i do advance them.

anyways, you made agood point about calling him an instructor and not sifu, but he already had alot of experience from another style. things didn't work out the way we planned it to. and on this forum i should have never put out our business.
done.


frank

Eddie
07-10-2005, 11:14 AM
This is a good topic.

I don’t know who this person is, and I don’t know the circumstances that lead to all this, but I have seen similar things happen, so I think I understand.

It seem that your sifu had good intentions. Its always good to promote your school and your style. Kung Fu can benefit so many people, so I’m all for all this. From your story, I get the feeling that this person didn’t exactly have the greatest intentions. If he really cared about his kung fu growth, opening a school would never have been an issue for him. I mean, to run a martial arts school takes allot of dedication, MONEY, and time, but allot of people think its some type of glamorous or cool life. I enjoy being a student much more that I enjoy being a teacher, but there are people who think differently.

A Martial Arts Association should be more like a family. Both the members (teachers and students) and the executives (or heads of the association) should treat each other like that and there should be a mutual trusting relationship. Without that, it doesn’t work, and your association becomes just another political group which is never good. Unless off course the structure of your Association is like that of some of these big kickboxing or karate groups, but in that case it still revolves around rank etc.

I noticed something in your post where you mentioned this guy had previous martial arts experience. I don’t know if this is valid in this case, but my views on this is simple. On our school application form we ask the new students to list their previous martial arts experience. I know now from experience that if a guy listed for eg, 1 year shaolin kung fu, 3 years – mantis, 6 months taiji, 2 years kickboxing or something like that, I know that this guy will probably not going to stay with me, and I know the chances that he will leave within the first 3 years are pretty big. I call these guys sifu hoppers, and it doesn’t bother me to much. In ten years’ time, he would probably have done the same to other teachers, and it would not really have mattered anymore. Jack of all trades, master of non.
The martial arts community out there is also not blind.

I guess its difficult to choose the right people to trust, but I think your sifu should not give up on his good intentions just yet. There are loyal people out there.

For me, LOYALTY is the most precious thing. Not just in MA, but in everyday life.

hskwarrior
07-10-2005, 12:04 PM
Loyalty is a very precious thing, and still is something very hard to come by. as i have said, i have been with my teacher since i was 13. and I will stay with him until he's long gone.

My sifu did have good intentions with helping that student. and somewhere the communication lines stopped. an email was sent to the effect of Closing down the school, hope all goes well in the future" only to learn he dropped our name and opened under a different name. now if that's not grounds to be upset about then what is?

There is way, way more to the story than this but i'll keep it off this forum. I don't hate the guy, i was just ****ed off at him for some dirty ****. I hope he does well in the future. in this case everything was Cause and effect.

i hope this settles something?!

frank

Ou Ji
07-10-2005, 05:14 PM
Seems to me that each parties expectations should be discussed before beginning training. Or at least within the first year. That way neither party will get disappointed and the goals can be revisited before going as far as calling it quits or giving a student the boot.

I just hate to see these things happen because it makes life tougher for the next guy. I've already had my share of Sifus who hold back because they distrust their students due to past experiences.

It seems to me the arts that survive and flourish are the ones that are handed out freely and the ones that are held too close eventually whither and fade.

Fu-Pow
07-10-2005, 05:27 PM
Its ok.

The subject you mention, would make a good topic. If the mods can allow posts like " I get to train a pornstar" maybe the " fewer yet meaningful discussions" policy has been relaxed a bit.

Ironicallly, that post was made by the mod of this forum......


So Fu Pow, why dont you just start a new threat?

OK....who should I threaten.....haha....j/k :D

Fu-Pow
07-10-2005, 05:31 PM
It seems to me the arts that survive and flourish are the ones that are handed out freely and the ones that are held too close eventually whither and fade.

Interesting point.

Eddie
07-11-2005, 12:23 AM
Ironicallly, that post was made by the mod of this forum......



OK....who should I threaten.....haha....j/k :D
****, I always get that one wrong. Thread/ Threat, they're all the same to me :eek:

SevenStar
07-11-2005, 10:42 AM
Over moderation is NEVER a good thing. Its right up there with Mogabe’s Government Censorship of Press policy. Our opinions on “ Troublemaker” might differ, and we might not agree on what you consider “meaningful posts”.

that I agree with. However, I don't think I over mod at all. It's real simple - stay on topic, no posting people's names without permission, etc. not a lot.


I fear that you may not have only chased away the so called “ troublemakers”, but also many others, which is why there was a definite down grading of these forums. The people who practice martial arts usually have such a passion for what they do and for their styles or schools. When people have passion, there sure will be differences in opinions. These different opinions often brought us great posts, and while I agree they often got a bit out of hand, many of these posts had allot of valuable information for us. After all, this is why these forums are here. To exchange ideas and to get to know the broader martial arts community. Not just to promote the company who sponsor these forums, and defiantly not to entertain the moderators’ power fetish (I say this not aiming at anyone, its just a general statement of forums in general).

difference of opinion is one thing. Calling out the names of people that are in no way involved with this forum is an entirely different matter. Heck, I disagree with most of the things most of the people on the forum have to say in regards to several things - fu-pow is one of them - but I don't delete threads/posts based on such disagreements. The threads that have been recently deleted involved the mentioning of someone who was not involved.



Im afraid Fu Pow is right. Ever since the over moderation started happening, these forums have become pretty boring, and often pretty useless. I have nothing against you sevenstar, please don’t see this in that way.

it's the internet, bro - I don't take anything here personally.


You seem to be the type of person I’d really get along with in everyday life. But if I compare many of the moderators with someone like Gene (for eg), Gene is allot more open minded, tolerant and mature in his ways (talking moderation here) than many others. It is almost as if the moderators have no respect for the people who post here. When posts gets deleted, it takes allot away from the credibility of the forum. We are not children anymore, and I shudder at the idea that one person (ie a moderator) has the authority to simply delete any posts which he/she thinks is not suited. The idea of censorship scares the living daylights out of me.

I completely agree, actually. I'm also a mod on the main forum, and if you notice, it's a lot more free there. I think some people on the southern forum have mixed feelings of how thins should be. Some months ago, there was a post about horoscopes that everyone wanted me to delete or close, as it wasn't pertinent to southern MA. I disputed that, as he stated he was trying to get to know his southern MA brethren - like finding a common denominator outside of MA. Gene agreed that it should stay. So, you guys want off topic posts disallowed, but want slander of uninvolved parties allowed? I disagree with that. If you can do it WITHOUT calling names though, then it's cool, as always.


I suggest do what other forums do. NO DELETE policy and create a dumping ground where the posts that you normally would delete are moved to. Forums in the dumping ground can not be replied to, but is still there for all to see. This way, we all win, and those posts (and often flames) are still available for us analyse junkies to study the content looking for some valuable info.

I actually think that is a good idea. karateforums does something similar - but they have it in an area where only mods can see. they use it to keep a papertrail of posters' offenses. Getting something like that implemented is not in my bailiwick though - I'm not one of the forum developers.

SevenStar
07-11-2005, 10:45 AM
Good point Eddie.

In the case of hsk's post it was an obvious slam on somebody but there were larger issues that were raised. Namely, how do you promote in your school and who do you let open a school under your name? I thought that thread had potential.

the larger issues are fine. but do it without mentioning names. that causes complaints from other posters. Since we are supposedly mature, you should be able to make the thread generic, no?



But...oh well....what do I know? :confused:

Do you REALLY want us to answer that?

Eddie
07-11-2005, 12:48 PM
thanks sevenstar,
I understand better now.