Offense Vs. Defence

[hskwarrior]

We all have heard before that having a good defense is having a good offense. But if one person is completely consumed by utterly wiping out his adversary as opposed to self preservation sorta develops tunnel vision, all he can see is the attack. Possibly, while he was so focused on his offensive the other guy is clear minded and sees all the open doors and walks right thru, in and out and around the backyard and such with ease, all the while being on the defense side of things and does not end up injured.

Now, in the Shaolin Temple they had a saying: Defense like a virgin, Attack like a tiger, Meaning the same way a virgin protects her virginity you should protect your life. while the latter explains itself. but, in a lot of schools the focus even in tournaments is on the offensive. Everyone is too busy trying to get the points instead of stopping the other guy from getting his.

Personally, i believe in having both as opposed to having one stronger than the other. but i would like to hear the opinions of you here on what you prefer to strengthen.


thanks,

frank

[yutyeesam]

this is a really good question you bring up frank, because i remember some time ago there was a thread on self defense and what not, and i was trying to maintain that it is important to teach blocks and defensive strategy.
everyone on that thread got all up in my case about that and said offensive is the only way to go.

now, i just got a frail 73 year old man who joined my class. he wants to learn to protect himself, because he'd been attacked a number of times in the past. he walks with a hunch. and yes, while i am teaching him how to generate power with chop, gwa, sow, kup, pow, etc and where and when to strike with them, but i am still teaching him how to protect his head/neck with chuin, his chest and stomach with kum, and his low abdomin/groin area with jeet.

he told me that he appreciates learning these striking techniques, but feels that they won't do to much damage to these "powerful and fast, and extremely strong young attackers". what he expressed was that he feels safer knowing how to block.

but in general i agree that a good defense is offense. i just think that it is not exclusively the only way...especially when you are overpowered, and the attackers are faster and stronger than you.

[hskwarrior]

Blocking is a natural human reflex. if your eyes were touched they close instantly to protect, right? if you were being confronted by someone with a knife one may keep his hands out in front of him to keep the knife wielder away, in one way that is also blocking, right? And if your attention was elsewhere, and someone came from behind and hooked you to the stomach, the first reaction you will have is to cover your belly. if you slap someone, instantly -even if you miss- people try in one way or another to protect their face. So yes blocking is very effective, especially if you don't want to fight but are being attacked.

If you're being attacked and not wanting to fight back, would you just let the attacker hit you? Whether you run away, put your hands up to protect yourself from harm you are blocking. it is one of the most basic human reflexes, except we as martial artists train and fine tune those natural human aspects.

So, if the offensive fighters only see one way, then let em.' Or, if you really want to test out my viewpoint, catch someone not paying attention and pop them upside the head and see what they do. Don't worry, defense is just as good as offense if not better. Regardless of how good he may be, if he can't hit you because you keep blocking his offense, then what good is it?


Frank

[SevenStar]

this is a really good question you bring up frank, because i remember some time ago there was a thread on self defense and what not, and i was trying to maintain that it is important to teach blocks and defensive strategy.
everyone on that thread got all up in my case about that and said offensive is the only way to go.

If I'm thinking about the same thread, it's not that everyone was preaching offense, it's that they were preaching against blocking - especially blocking TOO MUCH. when you have that defensive mindset, it's easy to get overwhelmed. Not only that, but you won't block every strike that comes at you, plus you are temporarily leaving something exposed. They were saying attack and move - sidestepping, bobbing, slipping, etc - all are viable, leave you less open and you can do them easily in conjunction with your attack.


now, i just got a frail 73 year old man who joined my class. he wants to learn to protect himself, because he'd been attacked a number of times in the past. he walks with a hunch. and yes, while i am teaching him how to generate power with chop, gwa, sow, kup, pow, etc and where and when to strike with them, but i am still teaching him how to protect his head/neck with chuin, his chest and stomach with kum, and his low abdomin/groin area with jeet.

or covering up - chin down, hands up, forearms and elbows to protect the body... he'd probably pick up on that quicker, which was another point in that thread and others similar.


he told me that he appreciates learning these striking techniques, but feels that they won't do to much damage to these "powerful and fast, and extremely strong young attackers". what he expressed was that he feels safer knowing how to block.

He's probably right. However, I'd rather fight than just cover up and take the beating. One of my judo coaches at around age 74 chased a robber out of his home - barehanded.


but in general i agree that a good defense is offense. i just think that it is not exclusively the only way...

agreed.

[SevenStar]

Blocking is a natural human reflex. if your eyes were touched they close instantly to protect, right? if you were being confronted by someone with a knife one may keep his hands out in front of him to keep the knife wielder away, in one way that is also blocking, right? And if your attention was elsewhere, and someone came from behind and hooked you to the stomach, the first reaction you will have is to cover your belly. if you slap someone, instantly -even if you miss- people try in one way or another to protect their face. So yes blocking is very effective, especially if you don't want to fight but are being attacked.

but there is a difference between blocking and blocking effectively. Anyone can ATTEMPT to block...


If you're being attacked and not wanting to fight back, would you just let the attacker hit you? Whether you run away, put your hands up to protect yourself from harm you are blocking. it is one of the most basic human reflexes, except we as martial artists train and fine tune those natural human aspects.

I wouldn't stand there - but I wouldn't just block either. I would clinch with him and tie him up. At the club I work, we have a no strike policy...even though we do strike sometimes. So, if a guy gets rowdy, even though he is swinging, restrain him. standing there and blocking doesn't help to stop anything.


Regardless of how good he may be, if he can't hit you because you keep blocking his offense, then what good is it?

yes, but realistically, how likely is it that NOTHING he throws will hit you? if you and your sifu do that drill, are you so good that he will never touch you?

[hskwarrior]

See, I was just talking about having the ability to effectively block punches. Of course people all vary in hand speed and if one intended to only stand there and block, yes chances are you will be hit. But haven't you ever heard that a moving target is hard to hit?

You will have your answers to whatever comes up, but I am very confident in my CLF hand skills and actually know beyond the shadow of a doubt i am good with my blocks, plus i have had more than my fare share of street fights so I don't speak on this ignorantly. If a person practices to block, over time he becomes very effective with it, even able to break bones with blocking.

Now, i never said anyone should stand in place and just block. but if the guy is just randomly throwing jabs, hooks, or whatever, and you don't want to hurt the guy, as long as you keep your distance, out of range of his punches, anything that comes into your danger zone you can block, but if they don't you can dodge, and evade, simple as that.

oh ****, gotta go to chinatown with my sifu, get back to this later.

peace



frank

[Ou Ji]

I typically have a viewpoint that conflicts with the majority but I'll say it anyhow.

I feel the priority is to not get hurt. With that in mind I think the first thing you need to get a handle on is defensive movement (blocking, evading, etc.). Once you feel somewhat comfortable under attack you can start thinking about offense. The ultimate goal is to combine the two and defend/attack at the same time.

I just feel learning aggression first will have you eating more knuckles than you should. I'm sure most of you know how frustrating it is when you can't hit or get your hands on your opponent. And attacks consume more energy than defenses. That's why boxers will lean back on the ropes and let the other guy punch himself out.

Of course it all depends on your opponent. I don't fight fire with fire, I fight fire with water.

Now I'm not suggesting pure defense only. Sooner or later you'll get taken out. I just feel that too much focus on attacking at the beginner level is the wrong approach. Defense first, offense second.

[TenTigers]

I take the completely different approach. I teach only attack-oriented drills. Or defense is also attack oriented, meaning that we step into the attack, and our "blocks" are strikes. I do not teach any other movement other than forward for the beginning of the training until it is ingrained in them.
"When your opponent moves in-you move in,
when your opponent moves out-you move in
when your opponent stands still-you move in"
We also teach Sam Jien Kuen and "iron Body" conditioning.
Contact, contact, contact. From Day One.
Once the student has his attack sequences down, and can fight with them, can jam up his opponent's attacks, or cover. Then we teach other movement.
This comes directly from experience. If you teach a student to back up, and avoid and play defense, when he is pressured, he will do just that. It will be ingrained in him. Trying to then make him develop forward movements will be very difficult, if not impossible.
Yat Dahm,Yee Lik, Sam Gung-Fu"
"Courage First, Strength Second, Technique Third"
You can aggree or disaggree, but I have been doing this and I am quite pleased with the results.

[Eddie]

Counter attacks are still blocks in a way, the only difference is that you have the opportunity to do counter damage to your attacker. Why would anyone just simply do a block, instead of a counter attack. In Lee Koon Hung’s book Dynamic Art of fighting he said clearly that CLF has no defined blocks (I assume he meant the types of blocks as in some styles of karate or kung fu which is only a block), only counter attacks. The strategy of Offence rather than Defence does not mean you don’t block and you only charge, not at all. A Gwa choy (back fist) becomes a very good block, but it also serves as a pretty effective counter attack. Even if you didnt get to your opponents face with your gwa choy, you should have done some kind of damage to his forearms, even if it is just to bruise him slightly. Then there is also the thing that your gwa choy pretty much helped to lower is attacking arms which should open him up for you.

Taiji meihua tanglang quan (in the beginning) is only about counter attacking. Very few actual offensive attacking techniques, instead you wait for your opponent to attack, and you follow up from there (ok, not really as simple, but for the sake of this argument this will just do). What I like about CLF is that it allows you to attack your opponents advances which is exactly what you want to do in a street situation. If he attacks me, I am not going to just stand there and block.

Obviously there are times when you block your attackers advance, and it ended up just being a block, but if you kep focussing on attacking while you block, it makes things much easier.

This of course works VERY well in combats sports like Wushu San Shou and even Thai boxing. In San Shou we try to cultivate this habit that you MUST grab every kick he delivers, instead of blocking it. From the grab, you obviously throw, which actually is a block, and then an attack.

Im struggling a bit to put my thoughts over to writing, so if my posts are not clear let me know.

[Eddie]

I take the completely different approach. I teach only attack-oriented drills. Or defense is also attack oriented, meaning that we step into the attack, and our "blocks" are strikes.

only saw this after my post. This is exactly what I mean. :cool:

[mantiskilla]

"I take the completely different approach. I teach only attack-oriented drills. Or defense is also attack oriented, meaning that we step into the attack, and our "blocks" are strikes. I do not teach any other movement other than forward for the beginning of the training until it is ingrained in them.
"When your opponent moves in-you move in,
when your opponent moves out-you move in
when your opponent stands still-you move in"


Agree 100%. It is more work to reverse momentum.
________
Michigan Medical Marijuana Dispensary (http://michigan.dispensaries.org/)

[hskwarrior]

the point that was being made was this:

If I did NOT want to fight, and a guy was to attack me, and although I do NOT intend to fight, I would not be a dumb ass and just stand there, neither would I only block in a fight. EDDIE is only speaking from an offensive point of view.

Just for a second, stop being eddie, and be gibert, the skinny little guy at the busstop and you get bullied by some punks. you are not a figther, so if someone corners you and you CANNOT run would you just let the punks kick your ass or would you protect yourself? and if you would, isn't blocking protecting yourself. i don't know about you eddie, but well, let me tell you this story again, i've said this before.......

a classmate of mine was out in front of the COW PALACE in SF around midnight, hanging out and flirting with this girl he just met. allbeit, he had been drinking and was kindof drunk when this girls boyfriend came out of nowhere and confronted my classmate. No fight ensued at that time but the boyfriend walked away. my classmate was still there talking to this girl when out of the corner of his eye he saw something coming at his head, so instantly he reached out to block what ever it was. The girls boyfriend came back with a machete and swung it at my classmates head. If my classmate didn't try and protect himself by blocking, he would have been missing a head because the machete landed right between his middle and ring finger. In that case i would say the block saved his life. what do you think?

Now, eddie i don't know about you, but i probably would have blocked in that last second moment as well. a machete to the head is slightly worse than a punch to the head. I'd take a few stitches over half my head missing anyday.

anyways, all the offensive fighters here are only being one track minded. and that's ok, nothing wrong with that. you do what you do, and if i choose to work on having an impenetrable defense (key word-"work on") thats my choice. No one is trying to teach anything to anyone here, we're just trying to have a regular conversation. now remember, i am only speaking on one very miniscule element to martial arts, and because i like blocking, don't fool yourself and underestimate anything. I may just have a good offense too. but im not here to share that on a public forum filled with nutcases.

If you don't want to develop blocking skills (intecepting, attacking, or defending) then don't. But if I'm going to get hit in the face, you can bet your ass whoever is throwing the punches is going to have to work hard to accomplish his goal. it won't be easy, or pain free either.

frank

[Eddie]

the point that was being made was this:

If I did NOT want to fight, and a guy was to attack me, and although I do NOT intend to fight, I would not be a dumb ass and just stand there, neither would I only block in a fight. EDDIE is only speaking from an offensive point of view.

Please sir, don’t try to turn my posts and to put words in my mouth (or letters on my monitor in this case), I think you are completely missing my point. I am not speaking from an offensive point of view, I am speaking from a fighting point of view. As I said in my post, and tentigers really put it nicely, any attack can become a block. The key is that it doesn’t only stay a block, why would one only want to to one thing if you can do so much more. Its pointless I think….


Just for a second, stop being eddie, and be gibert, the skinny little guy at the busstop and you get bullied by some punks. you are not a figther,

Oh ok, I thought that this topic was between martial artists and how we approach these situations. I am not interested in Gilbert, I am interested in talking to fellow martial artists, and experienced ones, and exchange ideas. If you do martial arts, you learn these skills, and it is just so logical for me to teach gilbert the best way I understand it. If I have experience in this, its even better.



so if someone corners you and you CANNOT run would you just let the punks kick your ass or would you protect yourself? and if you would, isn't blocking protecting yourself.

But blocking doesn’t only have to be a block …. Erm ok I get the feeling that my linguistic skills are not adequate enough to explain. Basically, I agree with you sir. All I am saying is that I don’t want to waste moves, so instead of just blocking, I will try to use my block in a way so that I can do some kind of damage to my opponent. Kind of like the way some kickboxers (for eg) block low kicks by turning their knees into the kick so that the opponents shin hits the hard knee…. Hope that clears it up. Suffice to say, I do agree with you on this one.



a classmate of mine was out in front of the COW PALACE in SF around midnight, hanging out and flirting with this girl he just met. allbeit, he had been drinking and was kindof drunk when this girls boyfriend came out of nowhere and confronted my classmate. No fight ensued at that time but the boyfriend walked away. my classmate was still there talking to this girl when out of the corner of his eye he saw something coming at his head, so instantly he reached out to block what ever it was. The girls boyfriend came back with a machete and swung it at my classmates head. If my classmate didn't try and protect himself by blocking, he would have been missing a head because the machete landed right between his middle and ring finger. In that case i would say the block saved his life. what do you think?
I see, but if he blocked the first time, and then followed up with a take down, it might not have gotten to the part where he had to block the machete. Lets just say, his first block was a gwa choy where he struck the dudes arm down wards, he would have time to drop down and take the opponent down. Even if he just dropped down and pulled his legs from under him, or he could have blocked and swept him. Do you understand what I am trying to get at? You classmate is a martial artist after all, and if you refer to him as your classmate, it indicates to me that he is pretty senior up. Most often a throw or take down should be the end of the fight, and you can get away or do what ever.



Now, eddie i don't know about you, but i probably would have blocked in that last second moment as well. a machete to the head is slightly worse than a punch to the head. I'd take a few stitches over half my head missing anyday.

Yip, I agree. But I would have at least tried to disarm my opponent while I try to block him. If he had to come back with that machete who knows, that’s why I would have used a counter attack instead of just a block.

After typing this, I do get the feeling that you don’t exactly understand what Im getting at. As a san da fighter, I am all for blocking… the right way…



anyways, all the offensive fighters here are only being one track minded. and that's ok, nothing wrong with that. you do what you do, and if i choose to work on having an impenetrable defense (key word-"work on") thats my choice. No one is trying to teach anything to anyone here, we're just trying to have a regular conversation.

I use these forums as an educational tool as well as a place to meet like minded people. Your quote in the first post on this topic asked for out thoughts, and when we give it, you attack us?



Personally, i believe in having both as opposed to having one stronger than the other. but i would like to hear the opinions of you here on what you prefer to strengthen.

See?



now remember, i am only speaking on one very miniscule element to martial arts, and because i like blocking, don't fool yourself and underestimate anything. I may just have a good offense too. but im not here to share that on a public forum filled with nutcases.

Sure, I like blocking too. And I believe you that you that you have a good offence. That’s exactly why I wouldn’t want to waste time. If, for arguments sake, it was you who attacked me, and I didn’t know who you were. I would have been much better off trying to disarm the situation and run away, than to just stand there and block until you kick the crap out of me :) . My counter attack would just be a bridge (if you may) to my next move, which would be to run away. And trust me, running away is not as cowardice as many would want you to believe.



If you don't want to develop blocking skills (intecepting, attacking, or defending) then don't. But if I'm going to get hit in the face, you can bet your ass whoever is throwing the punches is going to have to work hard to accomplish his goal. it won't be easy, or pain free either.
frank

I think this is just going to go in circles.

Now don’t take offence to this, as it is not intended as such in anyway.

You are a very knowledgeable and very dynamic person, and we are lucky to have the likes of you post here, but to me it seems that you take things way to personal on this forum. When people don’t agree with you, or when you think they don’t agree with you, you think they are against you. Which is NOT the case. Many of us use these forums to learn from people like you, about our arts and about strategy etc. You know, I might not agree with something someone says at the time, but it somehow sticks in my head, and who knows maybe one day I get in a situation where I actually realise that I was wrong all along. And Im sure it has happened before. These forums are really excellent training tools.

I have great respect and admiration for both you and your sifu, Master Dino. But please, if I don’t always agree with you, don’t take it up in the wrong way. We can agree to disagree sometimes.

It probably boils down to experience. I more than likely still lack the experience you have, and as I said, in a couple of years (or months) I could end up saying the exact opposite as I do now. That’s whats great about martial arts. You tend to grow into things . :cool: :p
Ed

[hskwarrior]

I haven't taken anything personal because i don't feel like i am being attacked.

but thank you for the kind comments you made about me and my sifu. don't worry, the old me is long gone.


as a matter of fact i do actually turn all my blocks into strikes, its just you weren't seeing where i am coming from.

oh, in regards to the machete and my classmate the machete was being swung at his head very quickly and only had time to raise his arms to block. the blade struck him in the hand splitting it wide open down the center. eddie, pls tell me how would you take the guy down with your hand that way? Sorry, don't take that offensively.

and if you say anything smart....i'll kick your god darn arse!!!!!lol!


frank

[Fu-Pow]

I think what you guys are getting at is that no technique in CLF (or any good martial arts for that matter) is straight. There is always a line and a circle which = a spiral. Furthermore, nothing is ever moves in a straight way, there is always this twining motion of the waist and limbs.

This has a 3 fold reason:

1) The body naturally wants to move in spirals.

2) It protects the joints from hyper extension.

3) Every technique can serve the dual purpose of a block or an attack.

[Eddie]

oh, in regards to the machete and my classmate the machete was being swung at his head very quickly and only had time to raise his arms to block. the blade struck him in the hand splitting it wide open down the center. eddie, pls tell me how would you take the guy down with your hand that way? Sorry, don't take that offensively.

and if you say anything smart....i'll kick your god darn arse!!!!!lol!


frank

the beauty of training competition san da is that you learn to grab and hold with gloves on. This mean, even if your hand is busted, you still have some opportunity to do a take down using your arms, elbows and shoulders. I have been stabbed before, and I know that your body releases morphine and stuff which help you cope with these injuries right at first (so that you dont go into shock). So, if you act quickly enough, you should still have some use in that hand. Boy how I love adrenalin.

If a guy was swinging a machete (I am thinking of the right thing - its a large blade type that is used to cut grass - right?) he is obviously out to do some serious harm. The level of threat is different. I wouldn’t just block, cause that would just leave him a gap for follow up attacks. This example illustrates my point really well, come to think of it.

I ha something smart planned out to type, but the last thing I want is having my a$$ being kicked by a senior martial artist, so I decided to leave it at that :D :p

[hskwarrior]

eddie, you keep missing the point. this situation was a matter of life and death. The machete was coming from behind my classmate who had no clue that he was being attacked. they were not going head to head, the guy snuck up from behind and intened to chop off my classmates head.

with literally no time to do anything but put his hands up to block my classmate saved his own life. it would have been a different scenario if they were facing each other and my classmate had clear visibile view of what was happening maybe the outcome would have been different. maybe he could of locked the guy up, or something, but it didn't happen that way. Remember, my classmater was super drunk and focused on the girl. yes he let his psychological guard down, as most people do when partying. but blocking (just one move)saved his life.

there is a lot of "I would of done this" but unless you had a machete speeding downwards with the intent to separate your head from your body, i think the more realistic point of view is a street fight is a street fight, most likely even if you lose the fight you still go home and sleep in your comfy little bed. However, when a true life threatening situation occurs there is only one of two things you are going to do, "fight or Flight".

Eddie, pls don't take anything i say in a negative way because it could just be my dedating character you deal with, it's not personal. but let me ask you this......
since you say you have been stabbed before, do you now have that natural fear of knives?

Pay attention, i know what i am talking about. My older brother was stabbed pretty severly in a gang fight back in the 1970's. My brother sacrificed himself when he noticed his good friend was about to be shredded by a huge buck knife. my brother reached forward to push his friend out of the way and he himself got stabbed in the middle of his chest and ripped all the down his bicep. and like you said the adrenaline kicked and it took his friends to put him on the ground to wait for the ambulance.

as well as another student of mine gets stabbed at work by the boyfriend of a woman stealing a t.v. set. my student was store security and when he stopped her turned around and sprayed him with mace, then called her boyfriend who came over and tried to kill my student. but because my student knew to protect his vital organs the guy stabbed my student in the armpit where he filet (Filayed?) his artery, he could have died too.

now in both cases my older brother and my student get very anxious around knives and become very serious. Eddie, since you have been stabbed do you experience what they do?

Eddie, i don't wanna kick your a$$, just don't make me kick your "ARSE", oaky? LOL! Does anyone know what i mean?

frank

[Eddie]

Nope, I dont take things negatively. Thats what I am here for, as I said, Im learning. And I know where you are comming from (we are all family under CLF) so I dont worry to much.

Im curious, what happened after the guy hit your friend with that machette? Did he not try again with follow up blows? That is my whole point, but i am getting what you are saying.

I dont have a big fear of knives, besides the obvious. Knive attacks are most common down here, and one need to be aware of that constantly, so I cant really afford to have a big fear. But this is a topic for another debate.

Dont worry, I know you dont want to kick my a$$ or my arse (not sure abotu the difference though) :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

no, i think the guy with the machete intended to kill my classmate, but since it failed he took off. actually, most of the time someone doesn't want to get caught by the police so they never stick around. hell, shooters never stick around to see if they dropped their target. that is why so many innocent bystanders get hit by bullets.

sometimes attacks are just too quick and fast to ever really allow you to get a clear mindset in the middle of it. that is when survival instincts kick in. and most people revert to the old cave man way of doing things. martial artists like us usually have a game plan for most situations. that's what we train for right?

frank

[Eddie]

sometimes attacks are just too quick and fast to ever really allow you to get a clear mindset in the middle of it. that is when survival instincts kick in. and most people revert to the old cave man way of doing things. martial artists like us usually have a game plan for most situations. that's what we train for right?


Now this is exactly why I come here :cool: . I guess I have never thought about it in that way.
Thank you sir, :cool:

[Ou Ji]

"I teach only attack-oriented drills. Or defense is also attack oriented"

My comments are personal opinion and what works for me but I can see your point. I guess I'm more of a yin/yang type. All sunshine makes a desert you know.

Having only one gear, full speed forward, works in a lot of situations but I don't believe it's appropriate for all situations. Not that I'm saying you advocate that approach but I've seen others who do believe that's the only way to go.

What do you recommend for dealing with a drunk brother-in-law at a family get together?

My fight strategy involves doing the opposite of what my opponent is expecting. I give them the tough guy when they're expecting a pushover. A quiet non-fighter when they expect a tough guy. It throws them off their game and gives me the advantage. I prefer fighting on my own terms so I'll manipulate, physically and/or mentally, until I'm in a comfortable position. I also give them a way out that saves face (unless I'm the aggressor, then I make sure there's no way out).

For the swift attacks out of nowhere I advocate full blast aggression though. Not really any time for anything else.

Edit: I forgot I wanted to comment on this as well:

"If you teach a student to back up, and avoid and play defense, when he is pressured, he will do just that. It will be ingrained in him."

This sounds like the argument that if you alway spar holding back, light to medium contact, that you will end up holding back in a real fight. I know, based on previous posts, that most on the forum agree with this viewpoint.

From my own personal experience I haven't found that to be true. Maybe it's because of my intrinsic violent streak, or many fights before I had any formal training, but my early training involved light to medium contact sparring with minimal protective gear. Even though I practiced like that I never had any trouble going full bore in a street fight.

I'm just saying not everyone fits the pattern. I'm usually the odd man out so I generally disagree (based on personal experiences) with blanket statements like that.

[SevenStar]

See, I was just talking about having the ability to effectively block punches. Of course people all vary in hand speed and if one intended to only stand there and block, yes chances are you will be hit. But haven't you ever heard that a moving target is hard to hit?

of course I have, which is why I mentioned bobbing and weaving in my post.



You will have your answers to whatever comes up, but I am very confident in my CLF hand skills and actually know beyond the shadow of a doubt i am good with my blocks, plus i have had more than my fare share of street fights so I don't speak on this ignorantly. If a person practices to block, over time he becomes very effective with it, even able to break bones with blocking.

as have I. But, we weren't talking about our abilities. we were discussing teaching a newb - you were speaking about the natural human reflex to blcok - but the natural human reflex is to attempt to block. Doesn't mean the will be good at it. Another natural human reflex is to flinch. I would venture to say that more people flinch than block - actually like a mixture of both...flinching and a weak attempt at a block.


Now, i never said anyone should stand in place and just block. but if the guy is just randomly throwing jabs, hooks, or whatever, and you don't want to hurt the guy, as long as you keep your distance, out of range of his punches, anything that comes into your danger zone you can block, but if they don't you can dodge, and evade, simple as that.


you can, but that still doesn't end the situation. He can punch all day. eventually, there will likely have to be SOME form of physical interaction. Grappling and restraining him is one way to end it without hurting him too bad.

[7th gen yang]

hello everyone,

I use to teach self defense in the norm By the book way block/ punch/kick etc. but then I was shown something by one of my sigungs; I think you would like to know if someone hasn't shown you already Maybe most will have the answer with out Telling or maybe none at all, when I teach self defense now I teach with this information In my Mind, Now I'm talking Self Defense this is something To ponder or throw in the trash its up to you I'm interested in hearing other peoples definitions of this?

"What is Self Defense?"

[7th gen yang]

hello everyone,

I use to teach self defense in the norm By the book way block/ punch/kick etc. but then I was shown something by one of my sigungs; I think you would like to know if someone hasn't shown you already Maybe most will have the answer with out Telling or maybe none at all, when I teach self defense now I teach with this information In my Mind, Now I'm talking Self Defense this is something To ponder or throw in the trash its up to you I'm interested in hearing other peoples definitions of this?

"What is Self Defence?"

Don't get me wrong, If you have a Definition please share with me, Its not about who's right or wrong
its information we could all learn something from each other Most of you have been on this forum quite awhile from what I can see This question probably has come many time's already and Im sure others are here just to talk smak but some of us would like to see other people grow and think alittle bit more about what true Martial artists are really about (not just because Im from this style or that). as I sit and read the threads and some of the things said from all of you (some stuff is really good) others Just smak youll always have that (THE SMAK) But to be Honest, some need some help and when people talk they show they trully either don't understand or are on some Mystical journey That exist in their Minds. I just want what is practical Im not saying my views are correct or incorrect I go by what works more than anything else, when it comes to Self Defence as far as what Works, everybody has their own answers and realitys of course I cant speak for anybody else but I believe information is needed to grow in martial arts that why I've Joined this forum some of us learn or have break throughs just from one thought brought to this forum so please feel free to give me a definition of this I think some just might learn something, Maybe even Me! and I will tell you what one of my Sigungs Had said to me It might be of use it might be useless but either way It will make you THink!"""NOT TRYING TO OFFEND ANYONE

[SevenStar]

What did he tell you?

[7th gen yang]

What did he tell you?


I asked the question first? :) What is Self Defense ?

this must be a loaded question For anyone to answer?Just be honest, No Dictionarys please!

[Eddie]

It looks like english, but its not ....

wish I knew what 7th gen yang actually said.

no google translation tool for geberish

[7th gen yang]

It looks like english, but its not ....

wish I knew what 7th gen yang actually said.

no google translation tool for geberish


Sorry I'm not English :) . But I still haven't heard anybody else speaking up,

what about you Eddie The question was( What is Self Defence?) or Is this not a question? :confused: anybody???

Here's a Clue? One of these masters taught it to me!

[7th gen yang]

I asked the question first? :) What is Self Defense ?

this must be a loaded question For anyone to answer?Just be honest, No Dictionarys please!

Ok The picture had no clues but it did come from one of these masters anyhow I did give you one clue "no Dictionarys please" the reason I say this is because This is a definition of Self Defence from the common man. Unless your not a Martial Artist then this question might be too hard to answer. but what Is the Definition of "What is Self Defence" mean to as it pertains to a Martial artist.

Do some of you that teach think its important for your students to know this question? do you believe that the Dictionarys Definition of this is suitable to teach students?.
It may not be of any issue to anyone, But is important to Self Defence as far as one of the highest levels of martial arts training!


we all strive for some of the same things (train like the Masters to be Like the Masters) how can we grow in martial arts if everybody worries about thier STATUS in this forum or in our daily Lives,in the training hall. My answer may or may not be the best, that is for you to decide. But I'm pretty sure that you might actually use it sometime, Heck some of you will probably be teaching it to your classes Because it is an Honest statement! (whoops gave away another clue)


We have to Have a clean slate to live in the TAO we have to be honest because lies destroy lives and takes up too much of my energy and probably alot more for other people that live it daily, Im not here to hide from behind this computer, but so far nobody seems to want to share thier views of this, everybody wants something for free! :( Just wanted to share

No Hard feelings,, I was just asking a question? :)

[SevenStar]

I don't think it's an issue of status at all - it's more an issue of comprehension... we really don't understand what you are wanting, but we do know what we want - which is to know what your teacher said. Now, as for your question, I would say that it depends on who I am teaching and why. If I am giving a seminar, self defense is awareness - because the people who attend the seminar will not receive enough training to use any technique to a great degree of proficiency given the limited training time that they have. They can, however, change their mindset - that is something that they don't necessarily need extensive training for.

If I am talking in reference to students, self defense is the ability to end a confrontation quickly - not necessarily from a defensive mindset, as the term implies - in addition to the awareness training referred to above.


Now, what did your teacher tell you?

[hskwarrior]

This is going on in circles. If no one is answering the question, then maybe you should either drop it, or give a little better clues than you are giving, or just repeat what your sifu said so we may take it from there.

Self Defense from a martial arts point of view (not some esoteric bs) is basically "Self Preservation". it is whatever you believe it to be because self defense is a individual concept. how ever you choose to protect yourself in a fighting situation whether it is running, carrying a weapon, having the ability to talk your way out of danger, or just plainly fight for your life it will always be up to the person in danger. this is one aspect of it.

I just hope that when you finally reveal what your teacher has told you it will make us all go HMMMMMM, not HUh? :confused:
but im having a feeling this will come from the far left.

7* is right about it also being awareness. most of us go through life thinking nothing will ever happen to me so we are not aware of the dangers lurking around. yet the ones who are prepared are called nutjobs, still they are the ones who survive.

Hell, Choy lee Fut rules forever.

choy lee fut is the answer to the question, not forgetting that Handsome Joe Keit is in the running for Choy Lee Fut Pimp Of The Year Award".

SO there you go.............CHOY LEE FUT IS THE ANSWER, NOW THAT'S IT LET'S MOVE ON!!!!! LOL!

[hskwarrior]

Just over last weekend i alongside of Handsome "Big Pimpin" Joe Keit watched the San Shou fights as well as a few other masters present they agreed their was too much offense and very little if any at all defense. in all the matches both fighters came out swinging like mad. in some cases one fighter was bigger than the other and the bigger fighters all came out looking for first round k.o's and petered out after the first round.

For example, Joe's student Andre just fought this shorter but massive fighter and in the first round it looked like the bigger guy was going to beat Andre. but when the bell for round two rang, the bigger fighter was all out of breath and Andre kicked it into gear and beat that guy good. for myself it was an exciting match because the underdog won, as in most of the matches here. all the big guys just petered out.

if none of the smaller guys protected themselves then the bigger guys would have finished them off early.

in regards to my original post of offense vs. defense, if most fighters want to come out swinging like what i saw at the taiji legacy, then i am surely sticking to having a strong defense. See, street fights are not as safe as san shou or tournaments, and in the street if a bigger guy gets into it with a smaller guy, chances are that if the smaller guy doesn't have a good defense and only focuses on offense, then going toe to toe with a big huge gorilla might be the demise of the little guy. because street fights usually don't last that long.

however, if one was to work at having both, and be equally good at each, then any fighter has a winning chance.

frank

[7th gen yang]

This is going on in circles. If no one is answering the question, then maybe you should either drop it, or give a little better clues than you are giving, or just repeat what your sifu said so we may take it from there.

Self Defense from a martial arts point of view (not some esoteric bs) is basically "Self Preservation". it is whatever you believe it to be because self defense is a individual concept. how ever you choose to protect yourself in a fighting situation whether it is running, carrying a weapon, having the ability to talk your way out of danger, or just plainly fight for your life it will always be up to the person in danger. this is one aspect of it.

I just hope that when you finally reveal what your teacher has told you it will make us all go HMMMMMM, not HUh? :confused:
but im having a feeling this will come from the far left.

7* is right about it also being awareness. most of us go through life thinking nothing will ever happen to me so we are not aware of the dangers lurking around. yet the ones who are prepared are called nutjobs, still they are the ones who survive.

Hell, Choy lee Fut rules forever.

choy lee fut is the answer to the question, not forgetting that Handsome Joe Keit is in the running for Choy Lee Fut Pimp Of The Year Award".

SO there you go.............CHOY LEE FUT IS THE ANSWER, NOW THAT'S IT LET'S MOVE ON!!!!! LOL!



OK! well just Move on

I said I would tell you and I am a Man of my word! I'm sure everyone will find thier own conclusion as to what this means, I Have come to Many conclusions for myself....
So do what you will with it is your own right, like i said you can throw it in the trash as far as Im concerned, Im sure Ill get plenty of that! but there is truth in it and If one person learns what this statement has to offer, then I have helped one person That's fine to me, everybody else is just Geniuses.

it's only Information! :)What is Self Defense? "Something we do naturally everyday"

[hskwarrior]

care to expand on that? break it down for us. obviously you wanted to share something with us. so take it from there and go a little further with it so we may have something to discuss.

I take a **** everyday, but you should break it down to exactly what you mean. how do we "self defense" ourselves everyday?

Please don't get me wrong, i am giving you an opportunity to clarify yourself so all these wacko's don't jump all over you.


frank

[7th gen yang]

care to expand on that? break it down for us. obviously you wanted to share something with us. so take it from there and go a little further with it so we may have something to discuss.

I take a **** everyday, but you should break it down to exactly what you mean. how do we "self defense" ourselves everyday?

Please don't get me wrong, i am giving you an opportunity to clarify yourself so all these wacko's don't jump all over you.


frank

I will try my best to explain
passive offensive reaction of action within an action
Perfect eg. I was telling a joke to one of my teachers( Don't ask me What the joke was I don't remember as I got thumped :eek: )any how the joke contained kissing on the forehead of My teacher At which I grabbed his head and pulled his head in to kiss him he continued the force and head butted me in the face ( I know you shouldn't grab people :D ) Of course i have to learn the best way I can The hard way! but point well taken!Of course he did not have to put his power into the technique, I did that for him, all he did was bow!

when concerning an attack on your person you have to blend with the action of the assailent your attack on me is my offensive, Its the fighting without fighting, direction without direction, A way without a way, Its use is to pacify which connot be pacified .

[hskwarrior]

Thaaaaat's way too deep for me, man! :eek:


Thanks for explaining though.

frank-

[hskwarrior]

Oh my god, I'm a gung fu flunky!

That last paragraph makes me want to smoke a blunt! ;)

Yeah that's it, i'm twistin' one up and then i'm going to read that last paragraph again.

Be right back. LOL



Frank

[7th gen yang]

Better be carefull, That's how I burned My unibrow, NOW I HAVE TWO EYEBROWS!

:eek:

[7th gen yang]

HSK Warrior

I didn't mean to offend anyone! :) I just feel Strongly about Certain issues, as I have had some good, and bad experiences. people talk smack to me in public or in forums and I can be as much a jerk as anyone else! I Grew up in California and Fought many types of battles with gangs and violence I was surrounded by Them and These forums seem that way! You say one thing out of context and your eaten by the shredder!
So I appologize to any one I have affended In my previous posts.

I really am a nice guy :)

I have studied M/A very dilligently for the Last 15 yrs, I have never studied in a School With other students, I was trained personally by every master I have ever met, To this day I still do not go to schools (Not trying to offend anyone :) ) My study has been very deep, Deeper than I am Capable of putting into words here in this forum, And with this I Say I am Sorry for any offenses

[hskwarrior]

i don't think you've offended anyone bro.

never take these nutjobs too seriously. Just remember, if you put on here something personal such as your mother passing away, they will most like come back with "good she was a bad mother for having you" or something like that.

Just like i have uncovered so much information recently about the green grass monk and i want to share it here but it will get eaten alive by the hungry hienas who tear **** apart just to do so. so i will not put what i've learned about this elusive character of the CLF family here on this forum.

so take it with a grain of salt and keep doing what you're doing regardless of these knuckleheads.


peace

frank