Old Masters and Dying Arts

[Anjentao]

Things are not what they used to be right? In any sense or context.

That being said, I am wondering if perhaps someone has more information than I do about how the "old masters" trained and why the number of students that train today, do not have the skills that previous masters had. Is it lack of time? Dedication? Lifestyle? Or are there people that have the skills, but are not interested in publicizing it?

My guess is that there are probably more people practicing today than say 100 years ago (or 200). With the WWW, videos, books, forums, etc. I would have to say that we are more "connected" than ever before. More information is available than old masters were ever privi to.

My questions stems from articles I read that speak of masters and their remarkable abilities that they are always (happily) willing to demonstrate.

An example: Liang Ke Quan was a very well known Xing Yi and Ba Gua exponent who would gladly demonstrate his skill by striking trees with his body and making the leaves and branches shake! I understand he would strike a (willing) person through the tree and knock them down!

Some of the articles I have read, speak of MA's with previous external training, who study internal boxing for two or three years with masters and gain incredible fighting abilities. Other articles speak of MA's that studied when they could because they were farmers, so the time they could practice was dependant on other factors, yet they too developed these incredible abilities.

Are the internal arts changing to the point of extinction? Do people these days just not "get it" because we are not imersed in the same culture? I would hope not, but I would be interested in hearing other people's opinions.

Best regards and happy training!!!

[SPJ]

Modern societies take away a lot of people's time.

It is still trendy to run, swim, yoga or Tai Chi etc.

Serious MA training is till possible. The question is always that do you have enough time for it.

I Kept a training schedule since high school in the late 70's. I stopped for a few years and then came back to practice again.

Everything takes time, years if not decades.

If you stop, it would take a while to get back on the track. And if you stop again, then it will take more time again to be back on the level you left behind. If you are not good at the basic drills to advance further is nearly impossible.

Dedication is there. But jobs, family matters etc. Who has the time to devote to MA alone?

If I can have 2 to 4 hours uninterrupted every day, I will be very happy. But I am mostly tired from work.

There is only so much time.

:(

[stonecrusher69]

My sifu has told a few times and I think there is something to it.One of the problems with T.M.A. is the sifu lack of passing on his skills to his students.sometimes it's the students falt for not trainghard,but if you have been training for a long time(20yrs or more) something is very wrong.Sure in a modern time we dont have the time like people had 100yrs ago,but you could at some point reach that level if you keep training and had the proper instructions..If it took 10yrs to master a style 100yrs ago you should be able to do it in 20yrs even or more.My sifu told me that M.A was improving every generation because the taecher taught all he knew,but then around the time of 1900's things started to change.almost every style declined .I believe it was do to the chinese not wanting the secrests to getting out to the outside world.If you ask a sifu about his teacher he'll always say if you tink I'm good you should see my teacher.Why is that? it used to be you where supose to get better thne the teacher.Again ,I think one reason is lack of information or disinformation.

[SPJ]

There is a scholar at UC Irvine.

She is an oversea Chinese from Indonesia. She studied Wu Tzu Quan and some Tai Chi.

She is interested in Fa Jing practice in Hu Lei Jia or sudden thunder forms of Chen Tai Chi.

She was amazed by the skills in the practice.

I said that the skills come from practice, practice and practice. There are no secrets holding back.

If you practice, you gain the skills. If you stop one day, the skills will be slipping away very fast.

True that modern tech may improve knowledge, communications and training props and medicine.

Still your skills come from daily practice and no short cuts.

She was disappointed that I said we may practice together. But I may not take her as a student. Because, that would commit me into her learning till she is comfortable to practice by herself alone.

Anyhoo, where there is a will, there is a way.

You may have tons of video or book info. If you do not practice, it is impossible to advance.

This is a Chan. If you look, you shall see. Or if you investigate and practice, you shall understand and master.

In other words, do not blame the teachers not teaching you all the fine points and holding something back.

The teachers may show you the ways, and we make the journey via practice and practice and practice.

:cool:

[qiphlow]

i agree with spj. there are very few who want to go the old way: spending a year or three training horse stance or standing meditation, then still posture training, then linking postures to get a form, then learning to apply the postures to combat....

when it's so easy to go to your local kung fu mart and get your guaranteed black belt within 3-4 years, it's no wonder so few want to spend ten, twenty, thirty years exploring their art. this doesn't mean that the old skills don't exist, just that not many want to find them in themselves. i'm glad that my fellow students and instructors are, for the most part, in it for the long haul. it keeps me going when i feel like i'm sick of it. after 8 years, i feel like i'm getting deeper into it, but because of this modern life (and my own sporadic practice habits), i know i'm not as skilled as i could be. i still keep going!

[bamboo_ leaf]

(there (are) people that have the skills, but are not interested in publicizing it?)

I think it’s a case of people expecting something and not really being able to see it. Its there and there are those that can use it. Its their world, it seems like most want them to enter into their world instead of the other way around.

[Scott R. Brown]

Modern culture conditions us to view life differently than life was viewed 100 and more years ago. With the advent of rapid transit, TV, movies, internet, computers, and other media distractions our minds are constantly fragmented. We find it more difficult to focus and our attention spans are shorter. Many train as a pastime and not as a necessity for their livelihood, survival, or as a means to gain insight into the deeper meanings of life. MA is one of many various activities we engage in and our choice of activities is frequently determined by what is the latest fad! We want results NOW because every material and entertainment need is satisfied so easily. We have forgotten what it means to work long and hard at anything. We do not perceive the rhythms of life that was part of the everyday existence of those living a slower paced agrarian lifestyle. Think of the simple activity of making numerous trips to the well or river just to fulfill the families need for water. Some family member would arise early every day and make numerous trips to supply the family water. This activity is similar to driving a distance to work everyday, but without the danger and distractions of rush hour traffic. People were more frequently alone with their thoughts. Today we are always doing something, listening to something or watching something. That is, a great deal of stimulation goes in without any time or effort spent observing what is inside and learning to bring it out!!

Parenting was easier in the old days because children participated in the family’s daily activities and livelihood. Today we see our children a few hours a day if they are not already preoccupied with friends, TV or video games! Years ago I took an anthropology class and I learned that hunter gatherer societies had about 90% of their time for leisure, I am sure there was less time for agrarian peoples, but they didn’t come home and sit on the couch to watch American Idol or NFL football or get drunk every weekend. I am sure some did waste their time, but for those engaged in MA at the end of the day they trained. During their non-training time their minds were less fragmented. Fewer distractions means more time for contemplation, introspection and simply observing nature. They didn’t have indoor plumbing or a/c. They were much closer to nature and they followed the rhythms of life and nature more intimately. There was less of a sense of urgency in their daily activities because there were no clocks to schedule every moment of their day.

Few people take the time to ponder how the “things” and luxuries of modern society condition how we perceive life. We simply do not perceive life in the same manner they did in the past and this affects our ability to delve into principles that require mental acumen and insight. It is said that Zen should be lived in ones everyday life, however, when this was said, life had fewer distractions. While the same principle holds true today, we must use greater discernment and self-discipline when allowing life’s distractions into our daily activities. The fewer distractions we allow the more time we have for cultivating the mind and body!

[Ray Pina]

I think there are a few reasons:

1) Not so easy to find a true master. Someone who was able to find a real master themselves and be willing to put in the proper time and study.

2) Students, especially western, are not willing to train the proper way. And here I'm not talking about hobbyists, but fighters.

Western fighters, for the most part men under 30, want everything now. They want to lift weights, run miles, do thousands of pushups ..... the internalist asks, how does any of those relate to fighting? Instead, they train how to link up multiple body parts to move with intention in a single direction.

In the beginning, it seems lime you'll never learn to fight this way and many get aggrovated. If you can fight so so already, then maybe you can have some patience. It takes about a year to a year and a half to learn the basic structure and movement requirements. About another year to year and a half to learn to relax and trust these basic princples, to know how to close the door, etc.

I went through all of these. I'm lucky that my teacher is good and can beat me easily so I could see and feel that what he was doing was better than what I had been previously taught, so I stuck in there.

Now, I'm on my third year with still lots to learn but feeling much better about everything ..... many side benefits (health and mind) of doing this sort of training.

No doubt training the other way will make you bigger and stronger though. You just have to ask, are you the biggest/strongest? And if so, how long can you hold onto it?

If not, maybe you need to find another way and the internal, under proper instruction, offers a solution to handle folks with better ability by using strategy, position and structure.

[bodhitree]

I believe it is much more difficult, yet possible to develop a high level of skill. Time is obviously a concern, however you can do things like if you watch tv, do it in a horse stance, or while changing stances. More people being out of physical labor also contributes, you can use internal force doing things like shoveling, ploughing, ect. So, you can practice integrating your whole body in something as simple as yardwork. Another impairment of course is in modern society it is not practical or rational to go around getting into fights. In the old days, if people settled their differences wth a fight, no big deal, nowadays there are things like assult charges. THere is an advantage to modern times though, knowing a broader range of styles from many places, and even getting to see some 'fighting' in the sports areana to assess what you deem necessart to work on and learn.
delibandit, how are you? See you soon.

[Ray Pina]

I'm amazed at how many folks equate training hard with holding stances -- especially internal stylists.

Do all of you hold stances regularly? My knees were killed by doing that for years in karate as a kid. The only static stance I hold now is San Ti and I only do it at certain periods, like a week before a fight or if I feel I've neglected my internal with too much partying and just need to jump start things.

Other than that, most of my "training" is moving, how to move muscle groups and sections as a whole. I would think training a rugget, double-weighted horse stance is counter to internal fighting principles .... you limit your mobility in a stance like that.

[ReignOfTerror]

I said it on this thread:
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37434

and will repeat it again:

kung fu and karate as well as aikido has never really been proven in any ring or at least on video, yet it survives and will continue to do so. The masters of old werent any better than people today, I mean what else could they have done with inferior training methods and techniques that people havent tried today to make themselves better? They had less equipment and methods of trianing today, they had less experienced in sparring/fights than people today due to the injuries accumulated through fighting/trainign with no or subpar equipment. Even one of the students of kyoukishin founder Oyama, said today's fighters have much better techniques and skill than the previous generations. People in all athletic competitions improve their scores and abilities over time as evidence by things like the olympic games. If you do only forms and push hands you can do it 15 hours a day, you will still be worse than someone who trains muay thai with sparring and drills like plum (neck clinching) for 2 hours a day.

[ReignOfTerror]

I went through all of these. I'm lucky that my teacher is good and can beat me easily so I could see and feel that what he was doing was better than what I had been previously taught, so I stuck in there.

how do you know this if you never actually sparred him? you yourself said in his school there was no sparring. drills and such don't count.

[woliveri]

SPJ,

Have your Scholar friend (and you if you're interested) to come by Master Tony Ho's class for instruction and/or push hands. We're right near UCI.

http://www.wustyletaichi.com/

We meet every Sunday morning. This next week will be the new location.

Come soon as he's going to Taiwan for a month somtime in August.

Welcome.

[SPJ]

hi;

Thanks for the invite. We are indeed neighbors. Wu style in Shanghai is considered Southern Wu. Wu style in Beijing such as Wang Pei Sheng is considered Northern Wu.

My sholar friend, she is a graduate student in UC Irvine.

I work as a local veterinarian from Tues to Saturday.

My free time is Sunday and Monday. But usually, the time is reserved for family matters and other "chores".

But thanks very much and say hello to your teacher.

I am working with the publisher for rolling out a new book on Ba Gua Zhang.

I brief thru all the Pa Kua or Ba Gua books in English. I think it is time to update or introduce more in an English text. The book is easy to follow with over 115 images. It is good for all levels of Ba Gua Zhang study and practice.

I will mention your school to my friend.

;)

[houstonwriter.c]

It’s true that most Westerners consider themselves too busy to invest the time it takes to really make a go of CMA. The funny thing is, I think, that a large chunk of that busy crowd creates its own busyness through unchecked consumption--status homes, new car every year or two, high-interest credit card balances, fast food, etc. Make $100k a year and spend $125k. Too many Westerners do too much spending and not enough saving and owning. Owning tends to free up your schedule.

Gotta run. Need to find my VISA card before this special on commemorative Elvis plates runs out on HSN! ;)

William Dylan Powell

[bamboo_ leaf]

(If you do only forms and push hands you can do it 15 hours a day, you will still be worse than someone who trains muay thai with sparring and drills like plum (neck clinching) for 2 hours a day.)

mmm No.

it means that you will not be good in muay thai and those in muay thai will not understand or be good in push hands which is only a training device for a skill not the skill itself.

On the surface it may appear that other arts are more easily learned and provide quicker results that is the nature of the other arts, the ideas of taiji and other arts like taiji are quite different and takes awhile to really develop true skill sets associated with the style.

The problem if one feels there is one, I don’t but some keep asking for proof and so on. The proof is with either yourself or those you meet. I do agree that there are very few at least of those that I have met that have inner taiji skills.

[Ray Pina]

What it comes down to is one's individual skill. As a whole, taiji is very poor for putting out fighters when even compared to Tae Kwon Do. How many people "practice" taiji? How many can defend themselves against any resisting attacker? Against a trained, resisting attacker?

I don't consider myself a "taiji guy" though I have learned some important principles and striking, believe it or not, from my taiji study but I have to say, it is a style very high on arm chair experts. You'll find folks so willing to stop mid-pushing and correct you on how you tossed them incorrectly.

I think one has to be careful not to get too caught up on all this "4 oz of weight" theory and what not. Understand the principle, the ideal, but make it work for you in real life, against a 200lb attacker when you are only 180lbs.

Or, recognize that one dose taiji only for healthy. Though I would argue that you're probably not getting the real taiji anyway because if done correctly you'd have big power from proper mechanics, timing and simply the training would build you up. If you had this power, fighting would be no big deal since the strong and powerful rarely shy away from challenges from the weak.

The problems arise when folks, the majority, from Group B open their mouths more than the folks from Group A .... they make the whole system look like a joke everytime they turn away from demonstrating their skills.

Taiji is a martial art. If you ain't beating some a$$ with it it's like a fancy sword you like to show off on the mantle but have no idea how to use it. Owning a sword does not make one a swordsman. Doing taiji form does not make one ataiji player.

I could strap on tap-shoes but that doesn't make me a Fred Asteir.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Ray:

I would generally agree with you about the mechanics of tcc and it's general principles.

there are some points which are not generally known in the teaching of tcc but i don't want to elucidate 'cause it could mean money in a teaching environment or be considered advertising for which i'm not paying.

tcc as taught to me by my kf sifu (whom has many years as a kf fighter in china) is merely a different lifelong method to achieving the same goals as hard and hard-soft stylists. with this in mind and an understanding of stand-up grappling and fighting one should be able to implement it's methods against the average 200lb street brute.

like wc, it works even better when combined with something else. IMO tcc and wc are great principle additives for a style, almost any style. but alone require continuous practice and refinement.

your general complaints about the average student is also not unique. if you need a serious student start a club or school near a university. sometimes its easier to train a novice to move correctly than it is to spend years correcting the styles of non-cma students from tkd or karate. tkd is well suited to the american lifestyle with progressive training, feats of skill at certain belts, and a sense of immenance combined with diligence. these attitudes basically don't exist in the chinese ma areas at the kids interest levels. the chinese mind is significantly different from the korean and even the viet. but the korean is more american-like.

so if you are gritching about your availabilty of students, rather the caliber of students available to you, try a demographic approach.

concerning the thread statements about the decline of available advanced knowledge: yes, i agree that good advanced knowledge is becomeing harder and more difficult to find as the months pass. those that survived the cultural revolution and went into hiding are basically reaching the end of thier life. some hong was passed to a tkd guy in korea durring the cr and that guy passed a couple years ago. Chan has retired. Lee Fang is still around but not well. Lam is getting on in years, too, but passes everything he knows on so it isn't lost. Kwong is in semi-retirement but didn't teach everything to everyone. Mountain Kim and Jhun Rhee are retired but each only taught three or seven advanced students. there are a lot of skills which are slipping away because there aren't a plethora of people with the right temperment to keep the skills and not shatter people on a whim. so they don't get taught. i'm glad a few have preserved thier forms on video, even if it's just middle intermediate level stuff: from that advanced techniques can be redacted or derived by applyuing the skills in principle to other sets.

[Ray Pina]

Ray,

Honestly, you have no idea about internal arts. None. I have said many times on this board that taiji is a high-level art that very few understand or can get. It is not a simple self defence art. There might be like two or three people in the US who can truly fight with taiji. People on this board seem to focus on how many fighters an art is turning out etc. Well, for taiji, it's not about that. Probably in your life, you'd be lucky to meet the real thing. I am lucky to have met the real deal taiji master, but still I can't fight with it, because it is an extremely difficult art to learn. Maybe I won't ever, because I don't have the time to develop the skill. I have to go to work and be involved in my realtionship etc.

And all this BS about sparring to develop the skill....how are you gonna spar with something you don't really understand? You'll end up trying to do forceful applications of the techniques found in the form, without truly understanding what is going on. And that my friend is not taiji. Lots of people do taiji externally and never have internal feeling or understanding. They do crap and call it taiji. And when thay get their a$$ kicked everyone blames the art rather than the poor gongfu of the artist.

I learn taiji for intellectual stimulation and enjoyment. There are a lot of very interesting things going on there that make me think differently about my main art tongbei.

Just because it hasn't happened for you, do not assume it hasn't happened for me. I have found a master that doesn't "fight" with taiji, he beats the hell out of people with it. I'm starting to do alright myself too, though I have a very long way to go still.

I am 100% against what you are saying though. I can learn some taiji concepts, like how not to be collapsed, yield, move the whole structure, than train "Hold the Ball" and then have my training brother, who also trained at the Gracie school, shoot on my time and time again and I'll learn how to use it.

So please, don't tell me what I do and don't know in one breath and then excuse yourself by saying you can't fight yet but know the best way to go about it. I am new to internal martial arts. But I've been training and studying martial arts since I was 4 years old. I'm 31 now.

I know what I can and can't do and I know I have the best person teaching me to get me where I need to go.

......
Yuan

I am not interested in students, other than those that want to train with my master. What I am interested in, always, is crossing hands with guys that are skilled. This is not so east to do with Taiji though and that isn't a dismisal of the style so much as its practioners.

[Ray Pina]

how do you know this if you never actually sparred him? you yourself said in his school there was no sparring. drills and such don't count.


The first thing my master did when I came to see about learning, which I've seen him do many times since, was invite me in and show me exactly how low my level of martial arts was.

On top of that, my master never turns anyone away and I've been around for a few of these encounters.

Most of all though, I spenmd time with my teacher and it's the little subtle things. Sometime you can take even a master for granted, but he'll do something every now and then that puts things in perspective. He got a pushing angle on me on the move from a rediculous angle while kicking me a few months ago. The blow was heavy enough to move me but I could feel that the power was ****ed, that he was merely driving through me not letting the kick go full power.

I have no elusions, that my master, if he wanted to, could kill me with his hands and I couldn't stop him no matter how hard I fought. I just haven't trained with him long enough. Maybe in 5 more years, he'll get a little older and I'll learn more, and then I might be able to hang. But not now.

As far as sparring in class, I go there to get technology, than I look for internet loud mouths to test it out on. If I hurt my training brother I take money from my master and I don';t want to hurt my training brother or sister anyway-- they're all good people. I don't want to hurt someone like you either, but at the same time I can't have someone talk smack and than beat me and post it on the internet either.

Do you live in NYC, we're having a throwdown soon?

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Do you live in NYC, we're having a throwdown soon?

no, but i'll stop in on my next trip to boston. there's another guy near white cliffs who i'm visiting in that area, too.

regaurding the sparring of tcc, i think most students of the art are cautious to use it with any kind of advanced skill due to the amount of damage it can create. there was a yang stylist whom made it to ufc back in 93-94. there have been chen stylists who've made it into the top 5 also. usually when a tcc stylist goes to ufc they're a little underprepared because they do not have as much skill with the grappling part of the art. when i was a beginner student a friend who had studied hop ki do wanted to know why i bothered with tcc and yang at that. i did a brush-knee push and some yin-yang hands on him and he stopped his hop-ki-do. i guess it's just who you train with. i see your sifu is chan style tcc, xing-yi and bagua. what styles do you come from and why are you in such a hurry to apply tcc in a sparring situation, that is, if you have no doubt that your sifu could cripple you rather easily?

[Ray Pina]

Oh, I know Taiji is good, though I haven't seen that much of it. My master teaches principles from all three arts as well as e-chuan, gives us excercises to develop ability and body and then we train it.

I come from an Isshin-Ryu background, about 10 to 12 years as a kid. After college I did a little Hung Gar and Wing Chun, got heavily into S. Mantis (though it was my teacher at the times Cliff Notes street version ... he studued with Masters Milton and Norman Chin but didn;t teach form.)

All of that gave me some ability but I really couldn't fight. Or rather, up until about January I was still fighting with everyone, being tough, that type of thing. Since January I had some growth, literally ... I now know why it's called internal... I stand straight, carry myself sttraigh with clear mind yet focus and intention. Since January I haven't "fought" with anyone, though I have wracked up a few beatings.

I don't think I'm that good yet, because I see all the stuff I still need to learn. The reason I fight, well, I'd be lying if I said lately, it's kind of like surfing, I miss it if its gone for too long. Alsom, to test myself. And, most importantly, I want to demonstrate that these Chinese arts can hang with the best of them.

I certainly didn'tm intend to come off rude to you sir. You seem quite knowledgable and reasonable. It's the other posters who come out and say I don't know (without knowing me or my level) that just irk me. Because I'd love to show them what I know and add to my video library, but you can almost bet the farm that when it's a taiji guy talking like that, you better pure yourself a fresh glass of lemanade and get comfortable, because he'll talk your ear off for 5 hours about what his master and master's master can do, but you know right away that guy aint fighting anyone ever ... to me, that's housewife or YMCA taiji.

How could someone like that judge my level, let alone their own teachers?

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

How could someone like that judge my level, let alone their own teachers?

well, as i have learned on the forums there are several kinds of martial artists. the kind that wield untempered words, like me on most days, come here to glean and tease. those that don't get as ruffled garner more respect and generally will get better answers to thier questions.

as for rudeness: i didn't percieve any. there are a few here you could take curtness lessons from. rude manners are someone else's game. aggressive is everybody under fourty in here.

e-quan, if it is what i think it is, is viewed by some here as a dangerous form of nei gung, similar to mantak chia's gongligung yu guilopugung. so i won't be going anywhere near your sifu or his guang.

good luck in your martial training and perhaps you won't be as affected by e-quan as others.

[ReignOfTerror]

well that wu style master that fought the white crane guy probably did push hands and forms many hours a day and when he fought he didnt even use a single mvoe from his tai chi forms, just arm flailing. Anyone have any example fo what tai chi looks like on video?

[ReignOfTerror]

well, as i have learned on the forums there are several kinds of martial artists. the kind that wield untempered words, like me on most days, come here to glean and tease. those that don't get as ruffled garner more respect and generally will get better answers to thier questions.

as for rudeness: i didn't percieve any. there are a few here you could take curtness lessons from. rude manners are someone else's game. aggressive is everybody under fourty in here.

e-quan, if it is what i think it is, is viewed by some here as a dangerous form of nei gung, similar to mantak chia's gongligung yu guilopugung. so i won't be going anywhere near your sifu or his guang.

good luck in your martial training and perhaps you won't be as affected by e-quan as others.

based on what someone says or whether they are rude or not doesnt correlate to their fighting skills. As Bruce Lee said the ultimate test is the ring/street/challenge match cause in a real fight only truth comes out. All the forms/push hands, etc. skills/deomstrations dont matter, only what you can do in a fight matters.

Here is an interesting discussion:
http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php%3ft=2522

[ReignOfTerror]

Not on video, but still frames of taiji in action. I was present for the first three pictures where my teacher intercepted an attack and it was pretty amazing. The last one is my teacher, the Chinese guy in the first pictures, being thrown by his his teacher, the great Wang Peisheng.


http://www.ycgf.org/News_Events/NYC_ZhiCheng_Open/images/MA-Demo_ZY_SC1.jpg

http://www.ycgf.org/News_Events/NYC_ZhiCheng_Open/images/MA-Demo_ZYbeatSC1.jpg

http://www.ycgf.org/News_Events/NYC_ZhiCheng_Open/images/MA-Demo_ZYbeatSC2.jpg

http://www.ycgf.org/Gallery/Hall_YinCheng/images/hall_y38.jpg


I am willing to bet the guy who threw the punches wasn't throwing them hard or unexpectedly, and only threw one at a time and waited along time ebfore throwing the other one possibly chambering his other hand on his weist, and probably held it in the air for 5 seconds allowing your master to do what he wanted. And again, it wasn't a hgih class opponent like a k1 fighter or a good muay thai guy or boxer. So it isn't too impressive, boxers can block and parry punches as well pretty easily. As for the last pic, it's only of a guy shoving another guy, that won't do anything against a fully resisting opponent who wants to really hurt or possibly kill you.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Waste of time, its never enough. People looking for something out side of themselves.

The last pic was nice. What a pic can not convey is the feeling of why or how something happens. Unless one has felt something like it they either don’t look like much or are called fake. Waste of time explaining, no need to justify they are what they are.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Internal Martial arts for the most part in this country is BS, but Zhang Yun is the real deal.

perfect mass lineage assault.

typical american response: "only my master knows anything."

just look around and try some different teachers.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi YuanZhideDiZhen,


perfect mass lineage assault.

typical american response: "only my master knows anything."

I think you have just done the same thing you are criticizing delibandit for!!!

A mass assualt is a mass assault no matter how you apply it.

Perhaps "typical response made by many americans i have some across..." would be more accurate don't you think? To attribute a characteristic of SOME of a group to ALL of the group is inaccurate and unfair!! If you don't like it, maybe don't do it yourself???

[SPJ]

I have studied Master Wang books and videos on Wu style Tai Chi. I like his book that showed 37 forms with apps. He also had very good insights in the theory in plain Chinese. He talked people and not scholarly. Compared with other classics and old books.

I was deeply influenced by his explaination about using intent and not the force.

Sadly, he passed away last September.

I quoted his remarks on Ba Gua Zhang in my new book. He used plain Chinese to explain a lot of difficult to understand principles.

I quoted him a lot in explaining Tai Chi principles.

:D

[ReignOfTerror]

If this guy was so good than he'd be a ufc champ by now, or at least his students would be, yet they are no where to be seen. And you have no proof for anything you said cause it isn't on video, proof needs to be captured on video, we lvie in the digital age where a digital camera can be bought for around $250. Also, plenty of mma or mt people whow ent to a seminar like that would pull their punches in order not to embarass the teacher or jsut sucked at their styles ehcne why they felt they needed tos witch styles.

[SPJ]

A good example about Yi or intent.

Master Wang said that when you practice Cloud hands or Yun Shou. When you move your right hand to your right and rotate your waist to your right. Your eyes follow the right hand or the lead hand or Yang hand. And your mind is actually on the left hand coming up or Yin Shou.

Because you are about to change. The Yin hand will become the Yang hand and vice versa.

So you think about both Yin and Yang and the change or Tai Chi.

This applies to everything, the power, steps, body turning, hands, feet etc etc.

There are more.

:)

[bamboo_ leaf]

(Master Wang said that when you practice Cloud hands or Yun Shou. When you move your right hand to your right and rotate your waist to your right. Your eyes follow the right hand or the lead hand or Yang hand. And your mind is actually on the left hand coming up or Yin Shou.)

you might want to check what was said as this seems very incorrect. First in mind is the phrase, The eyes should lead the movement. The mind is ahead of the movement the body follows this.


(If this guy was so good than he'd be a ufc champ by now)

not like you posting on the net :rolleyes:

Most of this thread can be summarized with the above statement always made by those seeking something out side of themselves. The only thing anything has to work against is ones self. Your own level determines understanding and level of practice.

[imperialtaichi]

...Your eyes follow the right hand or the lead hand or Yang hand. And your mind is actually on the left hand coming up or Yin Shou.

Because you are about to change. The Yin hand will become the Yang hand and vice versa.

So you think about both Yin and Yang and the change or Tai Chi.



Well said. Very similar to the way we practice in our system.

Except that we find if we think of both Yin and Yang then neither will happen; but think of one and feel the other occuring naturally. So the Yin/Yang is applied very similar to the "Chopsticks" principle: The non-moving chopstick provides stability, 49% movement and 51% power, the moving one does the manipulation, 51% movement and 49% power. But if you think of using both chopsticks simutaneousely (both yin and yang) you will not be able to pick up anything! And with the right amount of forces (usually very light) you can pick up a chunk of meat or a Tofu.

Just an example from someone who likes his Chinese stir-fry (me). Of course there's more :-)

Cheers,
John

[SPJ]

Yes, the mind is the minister or master and the body follows.

Rephrase "think" to "be aware".

We are aware of the Yin and Yang and the change in our move and that of the opponent.

:D

[ReignOfTerror]

ReignOfTerror,

Please go troll somewhere else. If you think UFC is the gold standard, then go train and fight there. I'm not interested in what you have to say. You're probably just a kid.

it's not just me, kung fu people do as well:
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37507
and notice msot of them don't fight or compete in it anyway but judge, so don't get all hatin on me for doing it.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Although I will say that Yang style has the concept of Yin and Yang reversed and that Chen style is really Pao Tui with some taiji concepts strapped on, but it is not pure taiji.

Fa jing is one of the least important skills in taiji, but people are obsessed with it. :D

well,
yang practiced hard looks more yin. yang practiced yang looks worthless. yang as yang-eye of yang is where tcc-y style is supposed to rest.

i don't know a thing about chen tcc.

fa jing is an important technique in all of martial arts chen teaches it very early in thier methods presumably so that you master it sooner.

[7th gen yang]

I'm new to this forum, trying to find my way around

No is the answer to the question of is the internal arts and high skill levels dying
as I am A disciple of the yang style Taijichuan I can attest to the skills you are discribing; They are alive and well preserved.

Tradition carries a Heavy Burden!

[SPJ]

Hi;

Welcome.

I would consider myself as the 19 th gen outdoor disciple of Chen Tai Chi.

Chen Fa Ke-> Chen Zhao Kui->

:D

[7th gen yang]

Hello

Thank you for the welcome

I am of the Li Ya Xuan lineage from emei

Xue Li Fu / Gomeng Lin

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

I am of the Li Ya Xuan lineage from emei

Xue Li Fu / Gomeng Lin

one of my teachers went to ermei shan to meat Abbot Gao after he went there. were you there durring the time Gao was there or are you a student of someone whom came to the states?

where do you study in sin city?

[7th gen yang]

I study with Master Xue Li Fu a.k.a. Jack Fu Temple city, California He is from Emei, China Yes I'm From Sin City, I have to travel to Him

[ReignOfTerror]

regaurding the sparring of tcc, i think most students of the art are cautious to use it with any kind of advanced skill due to the amount of damage it can create. there was a yang stylist whom made it to ufc back in 93-94.

glancing voer this thread I can attest that this is the funnies thing written so far. actually two funny things.

[phoenixdog]

If you have a commercial martial arts school in todays world, it is almost impossible to make it a traditional "old masters" training environment because most of the students don't want that. I've trained in big name thai boxing gyms in the us where women show up wearing jewelery and perfume and can't take any contact sparring but they are all part of the money paying crowd.If you made it "old school" traditional, you would have only one or two students at most. Military and police are your best bets for realistic martial arts because they have the most oppourtunity to use it, and if you want to fight, join a local USA boxing gym.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

glancing voer this thread I can attest that this is the funnies thing written so far. actually two funny things.

go look for old ufc tapes. there was this guy "ytcc" was listed as his style at the bottom of the screen.

method is merely method, guys. an advanced kf guy is as good as an advanced tcc guy. or tkd or karate. all the more advanced people are reticent to using what they know at the skill they practice it for it's uniform destructive capabilities. y'all blow smoke at the corner mcdojo. so do I. the closer you getto the top the more your arts look like that other guy's in terms of what you can do to one another.

the ufc from ten years ago is not what it is today. back then it was not as much MMa as it is now. chen and yang stylists often got into the top ten because chen and yang have grapping principle built into them something most styles have to go elsewhere for... :cool:

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

I study with Master Xue Li Fu a.k.a. Jack Fu Temple city, California He is from Emei, China Yes I'm From Sin City, I have to travel to Him

do you know what sect you are?
when did he emigrate?
thanks in advance. :)

[7th gen yang]

do you know what sect you are?
when did he emigrate?
thanks in advance. :)


Taiji men tradition is what I am told
the lineage I am told is
Yang Lu Chuan First Generation Yang Style
Yang Jian Hou
Yang Cheng Fu
Li Ya Xuan
Gomeng Lin
Xue Li Fu

Li Ya Xuan,Gomeng Lin, and Xue Li Fu/Jack Fu is of Emei, Chengdu,China
Master Fu Was here 2years before I Became a disciple 12/03 I had Known him for 1and half years before becoming his Disciple. When I met him I believe he said he had been here for six months

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Taiji men tradition is what I am told
the lineage I am told is
Yang Lu Chuan First Generation Yang Style
Yang Jian Hou
Yang Cheng Fu
Li Ya Xuan
Gomeng Lin
Xue Li Fu

Li Ya Xuan,Gomeng Lin, and Xue Li Fu/Jack Fu is of Emei, Chengdu,China
Master Fu Was here 2years before I Became a disciple 12/03 I had Known him for 1and half years before becoming his Disciple. When I met him I believe he said he had been here for six months

so Gomeng lin was your sigung? i believe he was with Abbot Gao for a while and added Go to his name, Meng, to honor him (there was an ermei monk who did that). the name Gomeng Lin is familiar to me, my sifu told me that story.

[7th gen yang]

so Gomeng lin was your sigung? i believe he was with Abbot Gao for a while and added Go to his name, Meng, to honor him (there was an ermei monk who did that). the name Gomeng Lin is familiar to me, my sifu told me that story.


Sigung Gomeng Lin is still alive(was) His 86th birthday (I believe)is coming up, Sigung Lin is part of the Zhui Hai group which included Yang Zheng Duo, Sun jian yun, Chen Zhenglei,and Many other of the Famous Masters. Sigung is Famous in China for His Push Hands Abilitys I sent an attachment Pict Sigung is sitting next to Chen Zhang lei

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Sigung Gomeng Lin is still alive(was) His 86th birthday (I believe)is coming up, Sigung Lin is part of the Zhui Hai group which included Yang Zheng Duo, Sun jian yun, Chen Zhenglei,and Many other of the Famous Masters. Sigung is Famous in China for His Push Hands Abilitys I sent an attachment Pict Sigung is sitting next to Chen Zhang lei

cool.

can you point out your family? sorry, i don't know what Chen Zhang appears like.

[SPJ]

That is a cool group picture.

All the Tai Chi contemporary masters are in them.

Chen Tai Ji and all.

Outstanding.

;)

[7th gen yang]

cool.

can you point out your family? sorry, i don't know what Chen Zhang appears like.


Sigung Lin is the front row third from the left

[7th gen yang]

That is a cool group picture.

All the Tai Chi contemporary masters are in them.

Chen Tai Ji and all.

Outstanding.

;)

Thank Master Fu for this one without him I would still be looking for a Taiji Teacher
next time you see him at a tournament or on the street Just Say Hi He is a wonderful person and has amazing skills

[7th gen yang]

Last week one of my teacher's elder gongfu brothers got into a fight at a restaurant in Wuhan. He had been invited there from Beijing for some sort of function, not related to martial arts. But the organizer of the event had also invited a young guy who is a military San Da champion. He is a really big guy, tall, strong, and had just recently won several championships in China. Well, in the course of the evening someone introduced the two of them and brought up the subject of martial arts and master Zhao's Taiji skill. After some discussion, the young champion wanted to try some push-hands to which master Zhao agreed. But when they began it became clear to master Zhao that the young guy was going to hit him. At this point master Zhao, who is 60 years old, threw the guy across a table, breaking a lot of dishes. Then the young guy came at him again only to be thrown into water cooler, which broke. At this point the young San Da champion got down an kou tou'd to master Zhao. True story, no B.S.

This is what Makes Taiji great! When I got thrown for the first time by my Sifu he bounced me from the hotel wall and back to him several times (about five feet). It seemed like my feet were never touching the ground, he did this seven or eight times in succession (he was sick with a cold at the time) we worked out in his living room one time and would throw me into the couch (same place every time) I tried to rush him but that only got me thrown further back almost breaking the frame of the couch as i heard a crack.

this is not a fantasy, or some made up skill, it's normal to real Taiji masters!

[Knifefighter]

Ihis is what Makes Taiji great! When I got thrown for the first time by my Sifu he bounced me from the hotel wall and back to him several times
(about five feet). It seemed like my feet were never touching the ground, he did this seven or eight times in succession (he was sick with a cold at the
time) we worked out in his living room one time and would throw me into the couch (same place every time) I tried to rush him but that only got me
thrown further back almost breaking the frame of the couch as i heard a crack.

this is not a fantasy, or some made up skill, it's normal to real Taiji masters!

Would he be willing to demonstrate this skill to someone who was resisting and was not his student?

[7th gen yang]

Would he be willing to demonstrate this skill to someone who was resisting and was not his student?

Absolutly!

he doesn't like doing it to others from the audience at shows because he has to worry about the person getting hurt(lawsuits) but usually if you ask he will show. In taiji there's a saying "Push people so they want to be pushed again" because when you get pushed you will want to know how it was done! This is very true!

Master Fu is the real deal! no tricks,all skill! His Taiji is truly outstanding! Resisting him only makes it BAD for you.!

[bamboo_ leaf]

(Would he be willing to demonstrate this skill to someone who was resisting and was not his student?)

not directed at the poster:

I often see this regarding peoples demos and such. My question to those posting or asking this. Do they feel that the people this is done to either don’t know anything? Have no experience in MA? Or are some how conditioned as some mentioned?

If Mike T, knocks his training partner out was the partner really not resisting it? Or conditioned?
People see this and can relate to it, I agree that it’s a little hard with many of the IMA
stories or demos, just reading or seeing it with out personnel experience to base it on, does not make it any less real for those whose exprinces are shared.

[Knifefighter]

Master Fu is the real deal! no tricks,all skill! His Taiji is truly outstanding! Resisting him only makes it BAD for you.!

Can you give me contact information on him? I would like to get first hand experience of his ability.

[7th gen yang]

Can you give me contact information on him? I would like to get first hand experience of his ability.

If you PM me I will give you the info you are requesting.

[Knifefighter]

If you PM me I will give you the info you are requesting.

My stupid, anitquated web browser won't support sending PM's. I can only receive them. Can you PM me the info?

[Vajramusti]

delibandit says:
Although I will say that Yang style has the concept of Yin and Yang reversed and that Chen style is really Pao Tui with some taiji concepts strapped on, but it is not pure taiji. And Chen villiage will be happy to take your money and let you think that you are learning pure taiji in it's birthplace. Kinda like the Shaolin temple welcomes the foriegners to play monk for a week, for a fee of course. And, I love all the discussions about the importance of developing fa jing. Fa jing is one of the least important skills in taiji, but people are obsessed with it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The comment above is a very superficial and under informed comment on Chen style. Old myths have been pretty well cleared away by careful scholarship. Chen style is the mother style from which other taichi styles evolved. See Doug Wile and others. Doug Wile's works include the "The Lost taichi Classics". The founder of Yang style learned from a Chen.
Taiji is very important in Chen style and is present throught the motions. Fajing is not insignificant but its not the only thing inChen. Sure tourists go to Chen village. So what... not directly related to "playing monk for a week at Shaolin".
There are now very good Chen style teachers outside of Chen village. Feng retired in Beijing, CXW lives in Australia- is teaching seminarsin the US currently.
There are top flight teachers in all the taiji styles- so this is nota put down of Yang.
But the average Yang stylist usually has almost no martial content to their taiji.
One can advance the virtues of one's teacher without putting down other styles.
joy chaudhuri

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The evidence or result is more important than what we "name" it.. Chen, Yang, Wu, Sun, etc... i'm more concerned with principles and applications than the name or lineage.. We are here, now.. we know the principles and the potentials.. why not pursue the evidence of principles regardless of name or style.. Chen Village is a bump in the road, barely discernable as a place.. it is not some mystical source of Taiji.. the source of Taiji is in the teacher and the student.. if the teacher "has it" and the student "gets it", Taiji advances..

Dying Arts? How did they become "Arts" in the first place? Some people expanded their awareness of principles into choreography and discipline that had observable results.. the same is possible today, anyone with appropriate intention and discipline can add to the Taiji legacy.. where one art dies, another is born.. it is evolution.. we do ourselves and Taiji a dis-service by ritualistic preservation of ancient concepts while excluding more recent insights.. i am deeply respectful of the contributions of Taiji's founders, and wish to preserve each nuance.. likewise, i see and experience current insights and recognize the consistency with principles and the progression of Taiji as a living Art..

Where the Eastern culture set in motion the concepts of Taiji, the western culture can contribute to its evolution.. but, that will not happen if our focus is only on preservation.. different perspectives offer a more complete vision.. Taiji is not anyone's exclusive property, it is a universal principle.. we, as a species (humans), share in unimaginable potentials.. to confine the Taiji potential to its past is to stagnate it.. arguements of style vs. style, originators, and other distractions are counter-productive.. truth is lost in the lack of authoritative accounts of Taiji's history.. speculation and embellishment are the most common current accounts of past achievements.. for me, i say honor the past and create the future..

Be well..

[SPJ]

Cool post.

Here is a link:

Bring it alive (http://www.cyberkwoon.com/new/viewtopic.php?t=3321)

:D

[Mo Ling]

"Indeed, later styles of Taiji are more refined and adhere to the classics more than modern Chen style."

An interesting view.. though not original.

I think someone with logical and critical skill might want to observe here that the standard (the classics) that you are expecting Chen taijiquan to be judged by are mostly all authored by practitioners of later variants (Yang or Wu styles). Since they were for the most part not written by practitioners of any Chen style, it sort of makes sense if they relate more to what people of the lineages who wrote them train.

Duh....

But just remember, these later variants came originally from Chen. Simply showing that there is a lack of any great wealth (in comparison to Yang style for example) of written material from the early Chen practitioners is not factually convincing that Chen is not following its original principles.

I will go one step further here and say, yes I agree the quote above is a thoroughly ignorant one. I have no interest or view on what style or lineage is "better" or any of that. However, it is not great feat to see that Chen, mostly is quite a bit more physically demanding. The greater acheivement would be to be able to be very refined at all when surviving the bitter training.

Besides that, to say that Chen is not "refined" to practitioners and disciples of the art is to show that you as perhaps a totally uninformed outsider have simply never ever actually seen this level of the practice. Mostly no one is going to show you (the public) that type of performance, it is closed door stuff.

People who have seen or trained it dont need to argue this, myself included. I am jjust taking a moment to let you know that however soft, refined, slow, deep, and rich those of you are used to seeing Wu or Yang style.... that is all there in Chen as well. I highly doubt that many people will ever get to see it though, and least likely are those who ignorantly dismiss whole systems based on what they have seen as an outsider.

M


www.taijigongfu.com

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Mo Ling: Chen exemplifies the Yin/Yang relationship.. Yin's soft fulid movements punctuated with explosive bursts of Yang energy.. more observable than softer versions.. yet, having trained in both Yang and Chen for many years, i can now see it all in both styles.. the problem is with the teacher's knowledge.. too many students spend 2 or 3 years learning Taiji choreography and precious little of internal cultivation, then.. they suppose they can teach "Taiji" to others.. when, in reality, they never learned it themselves.. Now, after 20-30 years of these "uneducated teachers" spreading out, the public perspective of Taiji is limited to pretty dancing in the park.. that's what they expect, that's what they want.. the few that have taken the time and invested their dedication to learn the depths of Taiji, suffer at the perspective of health and rehab as the core of Taiji.. and, when faced with real training and martial examples of Taiji they opt for the familiarity of "old folks in the park".. Many beginning students simply want to say "i do Taiji", some pretty hand motions and a few buzz words..

This year's (2005) Nick Scrima Tournament illustrated the perception.. in the Moving Step Push-hands competitions there was some spectacular events.. some of W.C.C.Chen's students matched against the Taiwan Team.. the action was fast and furious and exceptionally skilled.. but, many notable judges and officials could not see the intricate beauty and profound principles used in such an external "appearing" event.. subsequently, the Taiwan team pulled out just before being disqualified for "excessive contact".. the general perception was that Taiji had to soft and confined to someone's "perspective".. a visit to www.Wudang.com forums will illustrate the opposing perspectives.. many of these personalities are internationally recognized players..

Taiwan rules and Chen Village rules are designed to illustrate Taiji's martial potential.. not full-on Sanda or SanShou, but robust and permitting take-downs, US rules leave the spectator or perspective student wondering IF Taiji really is related to martial arts.. combat doesn't end when i force your foot to move..

Whether a particular style prevails over another is largely dependent on the quality of student/teacher relationships.. i sense that most styles are usable in the hands of the dedicated..

Be well..

[cam]

Delibandit, coud you please elaborate on the " load of crap" line. Seeing that you and myself have been training for roughly equal amounts of time, you seem to have a wealth of knowledge, myself I'm a dummy when it comes to taijiquan but I'm trying.
If I make a point it is from my own personal understanding, which I expect to be somewhat wrong, you, on the other hand, try to come across as some great sage, while it seems to me you are merely parroting the words of someone else.

[SPJ]

This thread is getting too long.

Check this one out.

Old masters bring life to a living art (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37958)

:D

[Vajramusti]

Check out the current issue of Kung Fu. There are several good articles in them
including feature stories on two Chen masters. See their polite but pointed comments on Chen style compared to Yang and others.

Except for Chen fake's students from his Beijing days- Chen style was not really widespread in China and some Chen village masters were victims of the cultural revolution. Then you have the vists to the west in the 80s of Feng zhi Quan,
Chen Xiao wang ... the later Zhu Tiancai, Chen Zhen Lei and others. The real coming out of Chen outside of the village and Chen Fake's Beijing students is a fairly recent affair. And one cannot judhe Chen style by seeing wu shu routines.

Some critiques including on this thread seem to show insufficient
understanding of the style to warrant the critiques.
Ofcourse there are top flight people in other taichi families- but best to see real
top flight Chen stylists before making comments.

joy chaudhuri

[cam]

No doubt, there are probably people that will call themselves "Masters" and are fakes, con-men(women), poorly trained, etc......and they may say the wildest things.
The problem is that you condemn the whole Chen style as being inferior, in a rather singular sense, or do you have any critiques of Yang, Sun or any of the other family/village styles?
Even my teacher has said to me that you should feel fortunate to find a high-level teacher, of any style. I'm sure your teacher would probably say that , perhaps you have misinterpreted his words.

[Mo Ling]

"Delibandit"

Perhaps this is outdated, but I just checked and your public profile states that you have been training Wu style Taijiquan for all of two years. Unfortunately, in the world of Taijiquan and internal arts, that is a very, very short time. In fact it is so short that you cannot be relied on to even smell an idea of what you are talking about, let alone have one for real ... of your own.

"Does the Chen style "closed door stuff" include rolling the dantian? If it does, that's a load of crap."

I am not here to reveal "closed door" information to you, heh...
If that is what your teacher tells you and that is the standard by which you define truth, then stick with that idea, I am not getting paid to enlighten you. I am very comfortable with the fact that it is not my job to argue with 2 year students about what their teacher told them versus skill I can realize.

2 years is a baby step in Taijiquan. It is best not to get to hard headed about training at such an early stage, nor get too comfortable defining external reality into immobile black and whites.
Judging by your posted training years, there are many people out there with much more experience than yourself, myself included, and its just a silly novice ego trip type of point for you to argue.

But good luck with your training.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


"Does the Chen style "closed door stuff" include rolling the dantian? If it does, that's a load of crap." Well, Ms. Cui Lu Yi, former coach of the Chinese National Chen Team, a QiGong master that i can personally attest to her healing skills, and a remarkably capable martial artist.. would disagree.. Her silk-reeling emphasizes Dantien rolling, in multiple directions, as directing mechanics and Qi flow.. Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming also utilizes DanTien rolling consistent with Taoist reverse abdominal breathing and the aforementioned Qi and mechanics control..

In college, i had a philosophy professor that on the first day of class asked us what was on his desk.. clearly, it was a bottle of Pepsi.. after the class agreed it was Pepsi, he turned the bottle 180° and it then appeared to be a bottle of Coca~Cola.. he pointed out that we only saw it from "one perspective".. finally, he opened the bottle and had a few of us taste it, it was root beer.. the point is: get more than one perspective, and experience it yourself before asserting so much "knowledge"..

There have been many great teachers, but.. what they taught was not particularly consistent with good theory.. A master from China was here in the states (northern California) and visited a local Taiji class.. at the conclusion, after witnessing an almost flawless synchronized performance of movement, he bowed to the teacher and complimented him on his teaching ability.. but, he said, your Taiji is crap.. Not all great teachers teach great stuff..

Think for yourself, be open minded..
Taiji is not open to interpretation. Actually, it is.. Taiji movement is an "interpretation" of Taiji principles, hence the different styles.. i have seen good Taiji by lumberjacks, potters, fishermen, football players, golfers, square-dancers, etc... people using good universal Taiji principles to accomplish routine tasks.. the source of Taiji is the mind, it can applied anywhere.. the discipline/art of taiji is simply a refinement of the principles..

Be well..

[delibandit]

It has been brought to my attention by a friend of mine that I have not been acting in a very dignified manner in my discussions on this board. After some reflection, I would agree that is the case. Actually, I am embarrassed at my behavior. It doesn't reflect well on myself nor my teacher and his students. None of my posts should be considered sponsored by him in any way. It was my own big mouth and bad behavior. I guess it is my fervor for martial arts recently coupled with my stress at work and the somewhat anonymous nature of the internet that have fed my disrespectful behavior. Sort of taking out my frustration in cyberspace. Certainly, I do not know enough to speak as an expert on any martial art and if I did I should do it in a more polite and respectful manner.

So I have deleted some posts that I think are unbecoming and will continue to remove others that are not in the spirit of good discussion, although the damage is pretty much done. And I apologize to all on the board for my behavior. I guess I just didn't realize how out of control my behavior was getting. I think the internet becomes an excuse for behaving in a way we wouldn't do in person. Or maybe it allows us to reveal something about our true nature, which in this case would indicate that I'm a jerk. But I really didn't mean any harm and I really don't want to be that kind of person So I again, I apologize and I will be more respectful in the future if I continue to post at all. Thanks and I hope you guys can find it in your hearts to forgive a novice.

[cam]

Hey all is cool Delibandit, I think everyone can understand stress, I've sure pulled some bone-headed things and I know there's more to come.
I guess it's because there's enough people that bad-mouth tai chi, some of it richly deserved but there is some good stuff out there and it's a shame that it gets lumped in with the trash!
Cam

[Mo Ling]

No problem, good for you. Happy training.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi delibandit,

Any damage you may have done has certainly been undone by your latest post!

I have never read such a gracious apology! You have done yourself credit and set a standard of behavior for others to emulate!

Good Job!!!! :)

[Vajramusti]

Good job- Delibandit

[Anjentao]

I have checked on this thread from time to time and have enjoyed reading everyone's opinions.

I think there are a lot of valid points and important views on this topic, however, in going back to my original post, I am still left wondering about a few things.

Of course, I have my own opinions on these matters, but I am always looking for more than just my own opinion.

Many have commented on a teacher not sharing his knowledge, different styles, inner vs. outside perceptions/perspectives, etc., but leaving that all behind and assuming that a person has a qualified teacher, that is willing to openly teach their art, is that enough? Say the student is bright and "gets it". It will still take even the best student time to develop internal power, experiential body knowledge, rooting, sensitivity, etc., right? Okay, well, what if this master passes away as the student is still learning? This is what I mean by old masters and dying arts. I do not believe that this student could go it alone and develop the abilities, or have the insight to have the same level of training at that point. The internal arts seem to be an infinite number of developmenal layers that can only be discovered through the mastery of previous layers. If that is so, how can a master fully impart his knowledge to a student. Time doesn't seem to permit this. Of course, I could be completely wrong...

Li Zi Ming had many students and taught his art for decades, but did he pass his complete knowledge to any of his students? Is this knowledge an "experiential" knowledge or did he leave behind all of his books, which can only be deciphered through demonstration? Is that not the way some things are learned? Afterall, as some have commented, you can read all the books, or watch all the videos, but unless you practice (correctly) you will not understand it. Yes?

What about masters who were very skilled in their art, but took only a handful of students? What about masters who have learned but never taught their art?

Although there may be other arts that spring forth where others have died, this may not always be for the best. It's unfortunate that there are in fact people out there who have not truly learned the essence of the internal arts and pass them along all the same. It would be most unfortunate if the "not-really masters" out numbered the true masters!

...Still just thinking.

Thanks again for all the comments.


Best regards and happy training!


Practice, Patience, Persistence.