A gun to your head...

[bonetone]

I've had training and have seen lots and lots of articles, videos, books, etc, where they give some technique you're supposed to do if you have a gun pointed at you from close distances. this seems like risky business if you ask me. Its true that if you react first to the armed person's weapon hand quickly enough they might have a slow enough reaction time where you can pull it off. Is there any one that has successfully disarmed an attacker that had a gun pointed at you? I suppose if you knew that they were really going to kill you, you might as well give it a try to disarm them. I'd probably be just messing myself and saying a few last prayers to think clearly.

[pakuakid]

I've been in a situation where there were 2 people with guns robbing me.I seen the first one coming and went to take care of him,but my eagerness to show my ass let the second guy firmly put a 9mm to the back of my head ending any plans I had.Would I recommend trying to disarm a gun wielding foe..........no.If someone is going to shoot you then they are going to shoot you.Most people just use a gun as a means of intimidation but putting up a struggle you run the risk of scaring or agitationg the attacker which could lead to you getting shot.

[hskwarrior]

why would you just let someone shoot you. I have had guns pulled out on me but they did it only in fear that he was going to get jumped at a party.


Now, in oakland Ca, last year a group of teenage kids were hanging out in their driveway around midnight when two guys jumped out of a car with guns and demamded all of their money and whatnot. no one had anything and everyone was shot, a girl was killed. it wasn't bad enough that they were broke, but the gunmen hand to steal something, their lives. that is so god**** foul.

but my point is, if you knew the guy was going to shoot you anyway, wouldn't you want to at least want to try and get the gun away? at least if you try you will have a 50/50 chance for survival.

i have seen video clips of shootings that were close range and becaus the guy kept dancing around the gun wielder missed every shot.

frank

[Samurai Jack]

This is a controversial topic, but here're my thoughts:

Normally, when someone pulls a firearm on you, they're going to be just as agitated as you are. With adrenaline pumping, and thier attention focused on thier weapon, they're going to be very sensitive to any move toward it. Empty hand defenses should only be used as a last resort in these cases. Always assume that if someone's pulled a weapon on you, they intend to use it.

To see yet another gun disarm technique, and a few comments from a master, check out the Robert Koga article in our archive.

[Reggie1]

but my point is, if you knew the guy was going to shoot you anyway, wouldn't you want to at least want to try and get the gun away? at least if you try you will have a 50/50 chance for survival.

I've got to believe that you give yourself a lot less than a 50/50 chance. I would think more like 20 or 30%. But, I can see what you're saying. If you are 100% sure that you're going to be shot, 20-50% is better than no chance at all.

[Sifu Darkfist]

it is always best to carry a gun legally and keep it wear your wallet is so that it can come out instead of the wallet. otherwise a friend of mine works in SWAT for the FBI and i have learned numerous removal techniques all of then effective if you practice them repeatedly. I do agree with most of the replies on this issue due to the abstract nature of the subject. I always carry my 45 glok model 30 and an extra clip of ammunition. I also feel you must spend as much time with your weapon as you do with your other martial arts training. It is sad that the United States has become a place where you are more likely to encounter a perp with a gun rather than a knife or some other weapon. Remember most states allow those that have a squeeky clean record and reasonable skill to apply for a concealed carry lic.

[hskwarrior]

my whole point is this.....

I live in San Francisco, and was raised around 16th and Mission. If anyone knows the city, then you know its not a great area. Hell, its not even a great idea. but where i am from if a gun is getting pulled on you, 9 x's out of 10 you are going to get shot. Now, possibly because i almost died from a 50foot fall i am not afraid of death anymore.

But, i don't want to die from being shot, "that's not nice" (LMAO) but if that is how i am meant to die, (obviously it wasn't meant to be from falling 50ft.) then so be it.
still, i am not the kind to just stand there and take a bullet then ask "why, why did you do it?" i think i would fare a little better if i gave it a last ditch effort for preserving my life.

I could never just stand there and say "pls don't shoot me, pls no. I have......"
I would be more like "****, this punk a$$ mudafooka is going to shoot me, I ain't goin' out like that!" still, $hit is so unpredictable, it is stoopid funny to hear people and their theories about what they "Would Do' as opposed to what they will do.


hskwarrior

[TonyM.]

Last time I had a gun pressed up against my head was thirty five years ago. I gave the guy the cigarettes he asked for.

[northernArts]

I feel confident that I would excrete a turd into my boxers. :eek: But I wear loose boxers and loose pants so there's a decent chance it would roll out my pant lag. If I could catch it on my foot I could kick it up at him hackey-sack style to distract him. I used to play hackey-sack every day at lunch during high school so I can use the top, inside, and outside of my foot to launch the turd. ;) That gives me the opening for escape. :D

OK let me give a serious reply. Yes there are a lot of disarms out there - that's why the magazines can show different techniques every few months. Here's the deal - if you look in Practical Chin Na: A Detailed Analysis of the Art of Seizing and Locking (http://www.plumflower.com/frames6.htm) by Zhao Da Yuan you will find 50 entry methods for chin na are shown. These 50 methods are not the locks themselves - they are how you set up the locks in terms of the position of your fingers/hand/wrist/forearm/elbow shoulder to your opponents fingers/hand/wrist/forearm/elbow/shoulder. I don't think every style uses all 50 methods to set up chin na but assuming you know how to apply the set-ups from your style you would have many options for control of the hand. So going for a disarm itself might not even be the best way - the best way might be a turning or winding lock that allows you to disarm the gun as a second step. Basically you have to know chin na well and although I know the theory I don't have the training to apply it - so I would do nothing.

BTW the two-volume video set(Un)armed and Dangerous (http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=897) by James Keating always looked like a nice collection of disarms but again a thorough understanding and skill in chin na might be best against a resisting opponent. I just don't have the confidence to wing it against a gun.

[Sifu Darkfist]

this is an fyi for any of us that are willing to stand up for ourselves against a handgun and try to take the initiative away from the perp. (and this is from an fbi friend as well as military background) make sure whatever method you use you place your hand on the top of the upper receiver(slide) if it is an automatic and clamp down with all your might to stop it from cycling another round. this insures that the perp only gets one shot off. If the individual is using a revolver go for the hammer at the top rear and in the case of a recessed hammer clamp the cylinder from the underside with fingers on cylinder and frame and clamp on like a virgin on prom night. Of course you need to remove the weapon asap preferably muzzle down toward the perp so that his tendons look (a form of that Chin na spoken of earlierand point it toward their body they will instinctively retreat in some manner out of the autonomic desire to survive.

i know its hard to picture however the stopping of the weapons mechanical system is fairly simple for those that dare to attack and attack and attack

[Mr Punch]

I'm well up for defending yourself in most situations, and have done so passively and aggressively against people with a knife, a bottle, a chain etc... but for disarms I think this statement is badly misleading:
...i have learned numerous removal techniques all of then effective if you practice them repeatedly.How effective? And how are you effectively practising them?
(and this is from an fbi friend as well as military background) make sure whatever method you use you place your hand on the top of the upper receiver(slide) if it is an automatic and clamp down with all your might to stop it from cycling another round. this insures that the perp only gets one shot off. If the individual is using a revolver go for the hammer at the top rear and in the case of a recessed hammer clamp the cylinder from the underside with fingers on cylinder and frame and clamp on like a virgin on prom night. Of course you need to remove the weapon asap preferably muzzle down toward the perp so that his tendons look (a form of that Chin na spoken of earlierand point it toward their body they will instinctively retreat in some manner out of the autonomic desire to survive.
How do you practise something as fine-tuned as this grabbing of the slide in a split second depending on what kind of gun you're facing?

In realtime something like 90% of the officers attacked with knives didn't realize it till afterwards (can't remember the actual figure - check Laur's site), so how keen do you think your powers of perception would need to be to identify and grab the gun in this manner in a pinch? I'm not saying you can't do it if you practise enough, but I am saying it's well beyond most people's level of dedication (obsession?!) and time available.

But then I don't live in a dodgy area in the States.

[Sifu Darkfist]

Well the statistics needed to sum this subject up are more likely to be found at www.fbi.gov or www.cia.gov. however i will concede that practice is needed. however you must resolutely defend yourself in the presence of a handgun due to the fact that you are on the verge of death. I choose to fight and i do practice with my students and you can take a glock thirty and rmove the mag and all rounds pull back the slide and race the trigger pull (fact action is always faster than reaction unless you are disabled. plus the individuals that explain these methods to me are not run of the mill officers of the law they are shall we say special weapons and tactics trained and fellow students of the 10th inf. with ranger tabs.
so yes you can die fighting but you can also die crying. (you are right there is very little in the way of gun violence in Tokyo) in fact your society is so advanced that murder is almost a thing of the past. unlike our barbaric streets of the United States. I guess we need to evolve in order to understand Japans peaceful existence.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Sifu Darkfist,

Japan may have a lower murder rate, but they seem to compensate for it with a high suicide rate! They internalize their violent tendancies. I wouldnt call that a peaceful existence myself! ;) :)
____________________________________

My brother-in-law had a friend (Kempo Instructor, Bouncer, Army Ranger) who attempted to take a .32 away from an ex-girlfriend! He and his new girlfriend are dead now!!

According to the account by my brother-in-law I don't think his friend used the wisest choice under the circumstances! And that really is the point! Each circumstance is unique and each Martial Artist has different skills. Sometimes run, sometimes talk, sometimes fight, sometimes shut up and give them what they want! It seems to me the decision "what to do and when to do it" is what takes the most skill and insight and in the end will determine whether one lives or dies!

Unfortunatley we can easily Monday Night Quarterback for those who don't succeed, like my brother-in-law's friend. Under the circumstances he apparently felt the odds were best to attack. Who knows whether he would have died if he had tried to talk it out or run!

For myself and depending upon the circumstances:

If close enough: I think would attack.

If medium distance: I think I would either give what he wants, talk or run.

If at a longer distance: I think I would run in a serpentine manner, roughly 3 seconds in between direction changes.

Of course other present circumstances would influence my decision.

Most criminals can't really shoot that well and it is difficult for even an experienced handgun expert to hit a moving target if they dont know where to lead.

[brothernumber9]

I've never had a gun put to my head. But twice in my life I was right next to someone who did when it happened. The first one was in the Junior College library, we were studying for exams and a guy both of us knew pulled a piece on my buddy's head because he thought he was cheating with his girl. I froze up, didn't know what to do, luckily nothing happened, the guy hit my friend in the head (not very hard) with the gun, said "that's what I tought" and left.

The second was playing a pick up football game. When the game was over I was trying to help one of my friends find his keys in the grass, it had just turned dark. I was looking around a few feet behind another one of my friends who was sitting faced away from me with another guy sitting next to him, assuming he was friends. I saw the one guy get up and hold the gun right in front of his face and yell something about some money. My friend grabbed the barrel with both hands and forced the aim above his head (in my direction at the time) and yelled out for his brother. It didn't even register at the time with me that it was a gun. This guy then pistol whipped my friend one time, then jumped in a car with his friends and drove off. Afterwards my 'friend' got about 20 of his compadres, geared up and went to the apartment buildings where they assumed the guy lived. I don't know what happened after that. I'm not sure how I would have reacted if I had been in the other seat. does anyone really know how they would have either.

[PangQuan]

I have had guns pulled on me a few times. All but one occasion police officers pulled the weapons. And I was the one calling them!! rookies...

But the one time it was not the police, I was staying at a friends place for the night. Sleeping on the couch by the door. All of a sudden the door busts in and a 300lb guy is choking my ass into the cushions while two of his buddies have thier pieces pulled. I managed to knee the guy several times in the face causing him to release his hold.

The only thing I could think of at this point was that two masked guys had guns pulled on me and they are all yelling at me for the "money". I instantly reacted by yelling for my friend telling him to grab his shotty and diving behind the couch i was sleeping on.

through the tussle with the fat man and i there was not a clear shot and as soon as I could breath again i decided instead of confronting two armed men i would seek cover. Out busts my friend with his mossberg (sp). The thugs take one look at this and realize all 4 of us are in the line of sight from what is most likely a pump full of buckshot. realizing some asses were about to be filled with some lead they of course took off out the front door. My friend ran after them and ruined thier paint job, dont know if he hit anyone or not, but they left.

point is I didnt think, i simply reacted. I did what I could to survive, based on my situation.

You cannot know what will happen when a gun is pulled on you because there are many factors that come into play during any given situation. Depending on why they pull the gun, where your at, who they are, how many, time of day, etc.

[GreenCloudCLF]

I was a cop working in DC (5D-if you know it true ghetto) and living in Suitland, MD (if you know it even truer ghetto). We learned some gun disarms at the academy and they were without a doubt the gayest things ever.

Then I took some Krav Maga training...these are some good disarms. Very fast, very effective. There is a gun Krav video out I believe Krav Maga Homepage (http://www.kravmaga.com)

I am also of the belief that the situation sets up whether or not to attempt a disarm. You have to kind of play it by ear. You know what they (who the hell is they?) Train for the worst but hope for the best.

But of the disarms I have seen I like the Krav Maga ones. I have seen some "Traditional Chinese" disarms also, and they had some good merit. But you need to train them obviously...keyword SPEED

[TenTigers]

I only practice and teach 4 disarms-right and left from the front, right and left from the rear. Any other angle is simply a variation of these. I see no need to teach several, when all you need is correct response. I do however teach variations after the basic entry,, so you can do either a wrist lock or use the triggerguard as a fingerlock, or whatever. But the main technique is always the same. KISS.
Here's something that has given me some problems: the "ghetto style" holding of the gun, where it is sideways above you as you point it at the victim. We've all seen it. It makes disarms almost impossible, except for bum rushhing the guy. I am wondering if it is not a product of Hollywood, but a technique that developed behind the walls, in the prisons, by inmates, just as jailhouse rock did, specifically so as not to be disarmed.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

I was a cop working in DC (5D-if you know it true ghetto)


when did you work 5D? i lived on levi street.

[Jason Martell]

I don't know what I would do, but something to increase your chances is pretend to look at something behind them with a surprising look on your face, they will wonder what is, and when they turn their eyes for that half a second, that's when you try to disarm.

[jetli68]

Jason Martell you are right if you can make the one with the gun look away from you that the time to attack but you will have to be fast . i learnt a few gun disarming tech but i dont think i would like to have to try them out. here in the uk knifes are more the problems than guns at the min but more gun are coming over here.
but like what already been said there is diff kinds of gun attackers or knife attacks

1 the mugger who want your money so use a weapon to scare you into giving him your money

2 the one that is out to kill some one and he has only one thing in his mind is to kill somebody

[paradoxbox]

I don't know what I would do, but something to increase your chances is pretend to look at something behind them with a surprising look on your face, they will wonder what is, and when they turn their eyes for that half a second, that's when you try to disarm.

Definately on the right track but this particular application would fail miserably I think. Something better would be spitting in their face as you get off the line of fire, twist your head and body and control the gun and limb so you cannot be hit even if the gun goes off.

Looking behind them and making a surprised face is apt to make them think you're scared of them, maybe prompting them to do something really unnexpected and unwanted. Spitting in their face as you get off the line will make them flinch every time though.

[TenTigers]

"wet birds don't fly"
This was taught to me by a Dept. of Treasury Agent,(secret service). It causes a momentary hesitation in the perp's mind, as he tries to make the connection. Kinda like when your dog ****s his head to one side, and goes, "huh?" That split second is all you need to make your move. try it.

[Doug H]

nobody is faster than a bullet. anyone wielding a weapon close enough for any disarming techniques simply doesn't know how to shoot straight. most people can accurately shoot someone from at least five metres, try covering that distance in the time it takes to pull a trigger. I think not.

[Cobra Commander]

#93 Today, 01:41 PM
Cobra Commander
Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1

For those in CALIFORNIA. Do any of you remember that America's Most Wanted clip???

It was about the Wah Ching street gang member chasing some guy from Asian Boyz in a Los Angeles billiard and shooting him to death.

The Asian Boyz member is first seen near the door of the billiard trying to wrestle the gun outta the Wah Ching members hand. It didn't work. The WC member chases the Asian Boyz member and shoots him to death. 2 shots to the head as he lay on the ground trying to cover under a pool table.

It is not as easy at it always seems huh?

Seen this clip anyone?

[Hatsuyuki]

I have long held the belief, that if someone has a gun to your head... You put up your **** hands. No matter how fast you are, a bullet will always be faster. Guns are too dangerous to screw around with, far too much room for error. The best way to will a fight is, as always, not to start one.