Breaking Free from old instructor?

[leung jam]

Hi everyone just wanted to ask you guys if there is someway of breaking free from my old instructor without leaving any bad feelings. The background is that I trained with this guy for around 7 years ,first 4 years just in private sessions ,so you do build some kind of relationship, the remaining years private and class sessions aswell as helping out new guys and taking class for him sometimes. The problem(s) began a year ago when one day the instructor tells me that basically he hasnt got anymore to show me and that now we are more training partners rather than a student - teacher relationship. But I knew I still had more to learn so I decided to travel some distance and meetup with another instructor who teaches the wsl method, and to cut it short he played with me like a child ! So I knew there was much more to learn from this guy whereas with my old instructor although I found him an alright guy it did feel like we were just going over old ground all the time and some inherent mistakes pointed out by new instructor have never been noticed by old instructor, he infact makes same mistakes .

So my question is that as said after years of learning from this instructor,which I am greatful for, but now find I cannot learn anymore from him how do I go about letting him know without hurting his feelings etc, I obviously havent said anything yet to him although I ve been visiting this other instructor for 7 months, but am now finding its hard to keep mixing my training theres a lot of difference in forms ,apps etc plus I feel bad in a way by not letting him know, anyhow enough rambling if anyone has been in similar situation or has any advice please post it .

[KPM]

If the WSL instructor has more to offer and can continue the advancement of BOTH of you.....why not invite your old instructor along to meet him as well? Afterall, it sounds like your relationship is now one of training partners and no longer really student/teacher.

Keith

[anerlich]

The longer you leave this, the more you're going to feel that you're "betraying" your first instructor, and the harder it's going to become. Sooner the better, IMHO.

You probably could have handled it better by talking to the first guy BEFORE you went to see the second guy, but that's easy for me to say, and hindsight is a wonderful thing. The fact that you feel bad at least indicates that you have a conscience, and aren't a complete ba$tard ;) .

If he's said he has nothing more to teach you, then he really shouldn't begrudge you seeking out people with more knowledge. And really, if he's teaching himself and wanting to to this the best he can, HE TOO should be doing the same, as Keith said.

Disclaimer: the following story is to illustrate a point regarding learning or teaching any MA. The point of the story is not BJJ advocacy.

I recently saw a video interview with David Meyer, a BJJ black belt from California. Before he started BJJ, he had been a longtime black belt in a Japanese JJ style, and had had a school for a considerable time. After he'd been doing BJJ a few months and met the Machado brothers, he decided he had to close down his school, become a student again and go to train down the road with the Machados, and he advised all of his students to do the same.

[Mr Punch]

...Machados...Hmm, do they come in cheese flavour?! :D

Or is that just the Gracies!? :p :D

To the original poster, doesn't sound like your guy is serious about teaching anymore - if he's still serious about wc get him along to the wsl teacher... don't make a big thing of it, he should be fine.

[leung jam]

Thanks all for replies, it would be great if my old instructor was open minded enough to say he would be interested in learning more or at least still into training together if /when I do leave but hes part of ewto and although a nice guy he follows 'company' policy so to speak. I very much doubt he would ever leave them or risk training with other sifu's who are not part of ewto, they do not give there instructors any slack in wt, even cross-training is virtually forbidden for the students!
I was thinking more along the lines of writing him a letter so I could get across all my points clearly rather than end up in a no win conversation of 'why do u want to leave' etc, ..... its a shame that the politics of many wing chun schools prevents many from accessing other branches, but anyway wheres my typewriter..

[stuartm]

Hi Lueng Jam,,

Your situation is so similar to mine mate its eery. I was with a failrly well known UK Wing Chun association and trained privately with one of their instructors for three years, helped him open huis class, taught for him when he wasn't there as well as assisting with beginners.

About a year in I also started learning under my current teacher, as he was much closer to the source of Wing Chun. For a while it worked out OK , my treacher was cool about things, we shared ideas and i trained in both camps. After a while, I realised what i was learning under my current sifu made much more sense (IMHO) and i decided to leave the association. I think my teacher knew it was coming and we both agreed when my last lesson would be.

At the time we both said we'd meet up for chi sao etc but very quickly the politics becomes involved. When teh last class came around i was disappointed in that he never thanked me for the committment i'd shown, and did not wish me the bset of luck in my new school - it was all a bit cold-heated. Like you said , your teacher becomes a close friend, not just a sifu. I mde many attempts to keep in contact with him, dropped in for a cuppa etc but in all honesty he has shown no interest in remaining friends etc so ive just called it quits. :(

Unfortunately it is frowned upon by many associations if you train outside your school / lineage which i think is total b***cks :mad: If i ever i was told i couldn't train with someone Id leave the association and just teach independently.

Hope it all works out for you - PM me if you need some advice.

Regards, Stuart

[CFT]

Unfortunately it is frowned upon by many associations if you train outside your school / lineage which i think is total b***cks :mad: If i ever i was told i couldn't train with someone Id leave the association and just teach independently.Stuart,

This doesn't seem like such an unreasonable request, especially if the other training was in the same art but a totally different school/family. Usually there are quite different ways schools do things, whether developmentally or even fundamentally. How do you resist temptation and start "correcting" people based on what you think is best (for you)?

I'm not totally disagreeing with your viewpoint, especially when applied to cross-training.

[stuartm]

Hi CFT,

My point is though is that we should all be one family - I absolutely loathe the whole politics thing :mad: I appreciate that it might be a utopian vision, but i will strive to acheive it nevertheless.

If somebody has something to offer, no matter what school / lineage / family they are, i will learn from them.

Stu :)

[russellsherry]

hi leurng jam , i started my wing chun back in 1976. with a sifu whom claimed he trained with wong sifu for a year and was is representative here in australia by the time i met sifu wong he told me the guy olny learnt sil lim toa and nothing else as we say here its your time effort and money ,i if you think this new guy has more to offer go train with him it can olny beniifit you . I was with my sifu fourteen years before i found he had nothing to offer us other than lies , trin with as many peo[ple as possable it can olny hope you peace russell sherry

[Lindley57]

Leung Jam,

Your post brings up an interesting point of discerning the difference between a Sifu and a person who just teaches students. A "Sifu" takes on the responsibility of translating the system to students, not only through the physical means, but also commiting to helping the students in all aspects of being a martial artists and life. A commitment to helping the student achieve their goals in learning Kung Fu. Your story sounds much like mine, a person with a "incomplete" Wing Chun background, started your path and you caught up to him. And if I am mistaken that he has completed the system, he has no more to offer because he can not commit to going beyond what he knows. Often times this will happen when one does not have a Kung Fu family. No other resources. No where to go.

If this person was your "Sifu", then you could feel he was less threatened by your going "outside" to seek additional knowledge from experiences with others, without necessarily breaking your relationship with him. And, as mentioned, you could be in a position to share that knowledge with him without disrespecting his position as the instructor. When one decides to be a "Sifu", you should be complete in your understanding of the system with some credible knowledge to discuss, even if you are not as good or skilled as you want to be. This way, you are intelligently open to new things and learning more.

Some will argue that "Sifu" is nothing more than a title, like "Grandmaster". I disagree.

Interesting how your dilema almost sounds like breaking up with a girlfriend! It goes to show how relationships are still relationships, even in different forms, the elements are the same. Just as in the case of breaking up with your long time girlfriend, one should be honest and sincere, if you are to move forward to what you really want. It may seem awkward in the short term, but in the long run you know the truth is what will set you free.

"Don't stay married just for the kids".

Good luck in your Kung Fu...

[Ravenshaw]

The nice thing about being part of a bigger organization is that there are many people in the family; is there another suitable teacher within the EWTO that is near you? I'm in the IWTA-NAS and when my Sihing met up with his own teacher in terms of material (but not in skill or experience), he moved on to a different instructor within the IWTA-NAS in addition to regularly attending seminars to learn from Sigung. He still teaches classes and trains along with his previous instructor because they are still friends and continue to learn from each other. It would be nice if you could work out something similar.

But, like everybody else is saying, you should probably take whatever path you think would benefit you the most as a martial artist. If you've examined your options and feel like this new instructor is the best around, then go for it.

I didn't know that cross-training was frowned upon in the EWTO... I cross-train here and continue to do so and my instructor has no problem with it. Doesn't the EWTO incorporate Escrima?

[leung jam]

Have to say I totally agree with stuartm's post -'If somebody has something to offer, no matter what school / lineage / family they are, i will learn from them.'

It is funny how many of these guys who are masters today were all classmates together when yip man was alive yet today most try to distance themselves (and their students) from eachother. IMO if there was no politics we would all learn a more complete picture of wing chun.

Hi Ravenshaw Im in Uk and ewto here def does not like instructors cross trainin. As for finding another ewto instructor well I dont want to go down that road again and besides I have learnt all the hand forms and dummy already and as u may know the pole form is very expensive in ewto and involves trips to germany to learn it and the knives well not many ever learn that in ewto. OUt of interest have you ever compared your skills you have learnt in WT with any wsl lineage guys?
I could easily hold my own against similar (tech grades) and sometimes higher level WT guys but as said before couldnt do nothing against this wsl guy, thats what made me realise there was more to this than seen in wt. From what I know now I would have to say WT is more 'self-defence' while wSL is more to do with fighting. They do kind of compliment eachother :)

[Ravenshaw]

Leung Jam,

I have very little experience with other Wing Chun schools... only one or two other guys. Never a WSL student, though, so I can't really say. Interestingly, even though WT guys sometimes have a rep of egotism, my teacher definitely shows respect to some other WC guys, and I think that includes WSL. Once I feel comfortable with my WT, I might go check out some other WC schools around where I'll live soon... until then, I think I'll save myself the confusion ;) .

Anyway, good luck to you.

[Thaegen]

EWTO doesn't have a problem with cross training.
They have also Escrima which is a FMA and in Escrima their are also different lineages. I know that my sihing teaches another kind of escrima than in Germany.

From my humble student perspective it is important to meet and fight other styles. The changes you will encounter in a RL situation another WT/C is small.

leung jam what grade is your first teacher?
Is he a techniquer grade or stil a student grade?

[namron]

If the WSL instructor has more to offer and can continue the advancement of BOTH of you.....why not invite your old instructor along to meet him as well? Afterall, it sounds like your relationship is now one of training partners and no longer really student/teacher.

Keith

well put, cudos

[leung jam]

EWTO doesn't have a problem with cross training.
They have also Escrima which is a FMA and in Escrima their are also different lineages. I know that my sihing teaches another kind of escrima than in Germany.

From my humble student perspective it is important to meet and fight other styles. The changes you will encounter in a RL situation another WT/C is small.

leung jam what grade is your first teacher?
Is he a techniquer grade or stil a student grade?

Hi there Thaegen, yes I know some wt schools have access to latosa escrima didnt know that some schools taught other styles of escrima ?,thats news to me.
Its not so much about mixing other arts which bothers me though just the fact that I wanted to delve deeper into wing chun, the only way imo you can do this is to look at what other wc schools have to offer. My instructor was 3rd tech ,had been for a while but as I said he had shown me all he could ,I never had a problem with him or what he showed me no big ego or anything like some wt guys do, Im just glad I did check out something else. I would never drop or disreguard what I have learnt from wt but now is the time to move on for me.

Peace :cool:

[Thaegen]

Hey

Leung jam from which lineage is your new instructor? Our Sihing also teaches this form of escrima http://www.ikaef.com/english/index.html, which has nothing to do with latosa.

[russellsherry]

hi thergan it is good to see so many wing chun people do arnis escrmia kali, i train under guro david foggie. whom is the top student of roland dantes a most respected martial arts guro whom is a a 8th dan in modern arnis i see from your website your teacher does this as well ask him about guro roland he will have heard of him. peace russellsherry

[Miles Teg]

I was in a similar situation coming from WT to WC although not WSL style. It was less of an issue for me to switch as I hadn’t been there for so long, but I still felt sad to leave as I had friends there and the teachers were really friendly and helpful. The WT school actually welcomed cross training a lot. All the seniors cross trained, including the main instructor. Unfortunately they weren’t very receptive to alternative styles of W.C though. When I tried the other style of W.C, it challenged many of the core principles of my old school. As the whole system seemed resolve around these, it was difficult to challenge one without challenging the whole system. This obviously makes it difficult to exchange with old classmates or talk to the old instructors.

I wouldn’t write a letter to your old teacher, because that sort of makes a big deal of the whole thing. You should talk about it casually with him, explaining that there were a few things that this teacher did that you didn’t have answers for. Don’t say he schooled you because that reflects on your old teacher. Tell your teacher that you are going to commit to this school to find out if there are any merits and tell him you’ll let him know what you find. Don't tell him you've been doing it for the past 7 months. If you do it casually it may not come across as a big deal. If your teacher has some type of problem with this then he has issues, which you can’t concern yourself with.

[PlumDragon]

Why not just tell him how you feel? If youre open and honest with him, and he is an understanding individual, he will see that you want to move on. I think the fact that you are concerned about it is a good thing for him to ehar because it shows him that you genuinely care...

[AdrianUK]

Hi All

I was in the EWTO for many years and I too was told by others that cross training was not allowed, then I checked with my instructor and contacted the headquarters, no problem they said, though I did hear from instructors it was frowned on for them to cross train. I did leave the EWTO to go to a IWTA instructor, very different emphasis and slaughtered a few sacred lambs. Before abandoning all WT methods it may be worth checking out a IWTA / Hong Kong trained instructor to see the difference

Regards,
Adrian

[leung jam]

@Thaegen Im now training under a wong shun leung instructor , as said before I have found it very interesting seeing the differences between LT and wsl style.

HI AdrianUK yep I know there are some differences between german :) (european)
wing tsun and hong kong. I have trained in past with tam yu ming (hong kong wt) and with nic smart (ex- leung ting hong kong master) . I have to agree with you that the european version does have many different drills ,perhaps too many latsao drills :D . Overall though the key concepts are the same whereas in the wsl method there are some big differences and once known you have to question the practicalities of some WT techniques.

ITs like I said before all these guys famous today becuase they learnt from ip man
were all classmates longtime ago and it was well known ip man didnt have time for slow learners he would show a technique or concept once to a student but if the student didnt have the apptitude to pick it up it was there loss. That is why all those students had a slightly different picture of wing chun and why I say imo it is a good thing to check out these other ip man students to gain an overall better picture of ip man's teachings and a deeper understanding of the art, you cant just take one mans (or masters) word for it!

[lawrenceofidaho]

@Thaegen Im now training under a wong shun leung instructor , as said before I have found it very interesting seeing the differences between LT and wsl style.
Hi Leung Jam,

why not ask your old instructor to form a sort of "partnership" with you (a "secret" partnership, if need be, -although it's sad, IMO, that this kind of thing should ever be an issue) where you teach him new things that you learn from your wsl instructor, and he teaches you new WT stuff that he picks up from seminars, private lessons, etc.??

It might also be interesting to show him a few wsl things, and then at the next seminar he attends, he can ask the master-grade WT guys; "How would you defend this?", and see what they say.......

(It would only make both of you better.)

-Lawrence