San Sik

[taichi4eva]

I am learning the san sik from Yuen Kay San Wing Chun Kuen right now. I was wondering if there was a formal way to practice them. My teacher just teaches me the technique and applications. I was wondering if there was an opening and a closing form, as well as a number of repetitions that is common to all practicioners.

[bonetone]

You must mean SumNung Wing Chun, YKS didn't do the 12 SanSik, he was a purest it would seem. The 12 SanSik come from Cheung Bo, a cook and who only knew those 12 SanSik wing Chun moves.

[Edmund]

You must mean SumNung Wing Chun, YKS didn't do the 12 SanSik, he was a purest it would seem. The 12 SanSik come from Cheung Bo, a cook and who only knew those 12 SanSik wing Chun moves. Why does sihing73 keep editing my posts for me? Is he afraid of the truth? Was anyone realy insulted when i said if Cheunf Bo were rich he could afford to learn the whole Wing Chun system and get stoned like all the other Wing Chun masters?

What the ? You don't know where the San sik comes from at all. Truth my butt!

Sum Nung created 12 san sik from the san sik that Cheung Bo taught him.
Cheung Bo probably had more than 12.

Yuen Kay San also learnt San sik from Fung Siu-ching!
Sheesh! Where did you learn about YKS wing chun, bonetone?

It means a collection of techniques, ideas or drills.
There's no set number of times or whatever because it's not particularly formal.

taichi4eva,

Why did you ask about the Sun Hei Gwai Yuen Faat in that other thread if you already learning YKS WC?

[taichi4eva]

I just started...I just wanted to know

[bonetone]

What the ? You don't know where the San sik comes from at all. Truth my butt!

Sum Nung created 12 san sik from the san sik that Cheung Bo taught him.
Cheung Bo probably had more than 12.

Yuen Kay San also learnt San sik from Fung Siu-ching!
Sheesh! Where did you learn about YKS wing chun, bonetone?

It means a collection of techniques, ideas or drills.
There's no set number of times or whatever because it's not particularly formal.

taichi4eva,

Why did you ask about the Sun Hei Gwai Yuen Faat in that other thread if you already learning YKS WC?

The 12 San Sik of Sumnung Wing Chun aren't anything that YKS taught. Please provide proof that the 12 SanSik of Sumnung WC are something that YKS did and taught. Sure there is a lot of breakdowns of the forms and individual techniques but to have a specific number of them is a limitation. I still say YKS has nothing to do with the SumNung 12 SanSik, and to refer to them as YKS is disrespectful of YKS.

[Edmund]

The 12 San Sik of Sumnung Wing Chun aren't anything that YKS taught. Please provide proof that the 12 SanSik of Sumnung WC are something that YKS did and taught. Sure there is a lot of breakdowns of the forms and individual techniques but to have a specific number of them is a limitation. I still say YKS has nothing to do with the SumNung 12 SanSik, and to refer to them as YKS is disrespectful of YKS.

Pfft.
Read what I wrote: YKS learnt san sik from Fung Siu Ching.
Sum Num learnt san sik from Cheung Bo. I never said they were the same.

YOU claimed that Cheung Bo taught only 12 due to him not learning the full WC system. That's incorrect. He learnt it how it was taught.

He had more than 12 techniques and the type of WC he learnt was taught in san sik form - just like Fung Siu Ching taught his WC to YKS.

AND YKS did pass these Fung Siu Ching san sik techniques on to Sum Nung. Sum Nung also taught Fung Siu Ching techniques to his students although they were not formally part of the 12 that he called Sup Yee (12) Sik. A lot of the Kum Na that Sum Nung taught was from san sik that YKS learnt from Fung Siu Ching.


to have a specific number of them is a limitation

And you're saying I'm disrespectful. You think techniques that Sum Nung made into the 12 San Sik are a limitation?

There's other Cheung Bo techniques placed within the dummy form.

Where did you learn YKS WC?

Apologies to taichi4eva for sidetracking the thread but this sort of misinformed "opinion piece" has to be corrected for factual accuracy.

[martyg]

The 12 San Sik of Sumnung Wing Chun aren't anything that YKS taught. Please provide proof that the 12 SanSik of Sumnung WC are something that YKS did and taught. Sure there is a lot of breakdowns of the forms and individual techniques but to have a specific number of them is a limitation. I still say YKS has nothing to do with the SumNung 12 SanSik, and to refer to them as YKS is disrespectful of YKS.

You're partially right, though appearing to come off a bit dissrespectful your self through some of the accusations.

Sum Nung had two teachers, the first being Cheung Bo and the second being Yuen Kay San. It is still not entirely clear what Cheung Bo's san sik were based off of (early research suggested them a descendant of Gulou/Koo lo, but more recent research suggests a more direct fukien white crane weng chun derivitive).

Yuen Kay San told him to combine his knowlege of Cheung Bo's system with what he was teaching him in order to preserve and respect. And you would be incorrect - the 12 san sik are a combination of the san sik Sum Nung learned from Cheung Bo and Yuen Kay San. So the fact that Sum Nung taught the organized 12 san sik was actually being respectfull of YKS's wishes.

Secondly, there's no such thing as a "purist". Every sifu puts their own stamp on things and continues to evolve their system. Even Yuen Kay San.

[reneritchie]

This is what Sum Nung sigung told me personally:

Cheung Bo only had San Sik, numerous San Sik. Yuen Kay-San had San Sik and Kuen To (Siu Lien Tao, Chum Kiu, etc.)

When Sum Nung began teaching, he had a number of students who needed to learn to fight quickly, so Sum Nung organized San Sik from both Cheung Bo and Yuen Kay-San into the Sup Yee Sik. Some were from Cheung Bo, some from Yuen Kay-San, some were common to both, though each had their own way of doing it.

Yuen Kay-San himself integrated Fung Siu-Ching's close range San Sik into the longer bridge system he learned from Fok Bo-Chuen. It sounds like Yuen sijo was interested primarily in results, and was open minded enough to seek out teachers who could fill what he felt were gaps in his skills. Sigung kept improving his system right into his latter days. He was an applicant in the truest sense of the word.

As to the original question, you can open the San Sik the same way you open the Kuen To. The set number of reps is 'as many as you can with improving quality to each'. If you start to get sloppy, stop or switch and come back when you are mentally focused again. (Bad reps can be worse than no reps).

Rene/Montreal (Sum Nung > Ngo Lui-Kay > Me)

[Firehawk4]

What about Cheung Bo s San Sik coming from White Crane is this true ? Is there any comparison that we can tell between Cheung Bo s San Sik and Fukien White Crane ?

[reneritchie]

Cheung Bo learned from Wai Yuk-Sang, who learned from a student of Fung Siu-Ching named Ngau Si. You can find them in the Wing Chun Archive's Biographies Section (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Encyclopedia&op=list_content&eid=3)

There are some things to suggest that the Weng Chun Kuen descended from Fujian Weng Chun White Crane, which was originally more San Sik in nature.

[stonecrusher69]

When you say san sik is that the same as san sao?or is there a difference?

[reneritchie]

San Sik = "Free Forms"
San Sao = "Free Hands"
San Da = "Free Hitting"

San Sao is often used interchangeably with both San Sik and San Da, but for that very reason, isn't as clear when out of context.

San Sik are like *very* short forms. They can be so short as to be just one technique (e.g. Tan Da could be a San Sik), or a combination of a few movements like a section from Siu Lien Tao or the Muk Yan Jong.

San Sik systems don't have the longer routines (Kuen To) like Siu Lien Tao, but instead have a set, just as formalized and progressive, of much, much shorter San Sik

[taichi4eva]

My sino-vietnamese is not good enough to read this. I got this off a Hong Kong forum. The thread is about the san sik.

十二散手....的確冇一招叫白鶴擒狐
依次係
1.日字衝捶 --------------->2.偏身衝捶

3.上攔手------------------------->下攔手

5.外廉手-------------------------->6.內廉手

7.外攤掌----------------------->8.內攤掌

9.外(立)手------------------------->10.內(立)手

11.三品掌------------------------>12.圈手
但係外(立)手同內(立)手因為動作一樣...只是內外門的分別..所以有d師傅會成(立)手個.,,,, 將獨龍捶.....放係第12....
你說的會否是(立)手呢....可能名稱有別

Can anyone translate this? From what I can read, there are only three techniques that are common to the YKS wing chun listed here- the sun shaped fist, side body punch, and triangle palms. All the other techniques are different- huen sau, lop sau, etc.

[taichi4eva]

I'm sorry for all the smilies...I swear I did not do that ;)

[CFT]

Unfortunately the smilies do get in the way - probably some kind of unicode problem.

Rough translation, done v. fast:

[In] 12 "free hands" (san shou) ... there is definitely not a single set called "White Crane seizes the Fox". According to categorisation:


Sun-character thrusting punch
Side body thrusting punch
Upper barring arm (laan sau)
Lower barring arm (laan sau)
Outer sickle hand (spelling mistake for sickle character? Should have the gold-character radical I think)
Inner sickle hand
Outer taan sau
Inner taan sau
Obliterated by coding error
Obliterated by coding error
Three Product Palm ("bun" usually means product, or grade. Google returned a page (http://www.21bowu.com/jiangwutang/tutorship/Detaildayi.asp?id=667) which described this as representing qualities of paak-da, gaan-da and taan-da)
Huen sau

Next couple of lines are again spolit.

Something about the inner and outer hands having the same action, but with inner and outer gate difference, so some sifu would ,,,,,
take the single dragon punch and put it at number 12.

What you say could be xxxxx .... possibly just a different term.

[taichi4eva]

The ones that were obliterated...I went back to the page...in sino vietnamese it's pronounced "lap" meaning to stand. I think in cantonese the whole term is "lap sau"

How can the tan sau be used on the inside and outside? How about the sickle hand and lap sau?

[stycx]

Didn't know if this is the best plae to start but thought I'd jump in anyway.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am a disabled man Spina Bifida (L4L5 for the technically minded).

Briefly, I am a man on crutches who, looking for an effective fighting style,
chose wing chun for its excellence but also I liked the square facing (I have no balance side-on) the ambidexterity and the fact that my legs kinda naturally fall into the YCKYM stance ( I call it the you can kiss your mother to remember it) when I stand without my crutches
I think I believe in the WSL which I experienced in Sydney, Australia.

The help I need is as follows:-
1. Can I generate the right kind of power if
a) my hip tortion is not great though I can kind of shunt it forward with the strike a little BECAUSE
2. I can not step, not once, not even a little bit. On the upside I think that my "over-rootedness" helps ( I have learned to balance very well in the forty years+ I've used crutches).
3. One last "advantage" I perceive is my inability to initate attack. Instead I am counting on my adversary doing the closing/bridge building for both of us but this raises the problem of acquiring the centreline on the opponent while not being able to turn as fast as they may.

I used to attend classes but my needs don't fit well into a group situation
and in any casev i cannot adopt the whole system, so I would say I try to cultivate as many WC attributes as I can based on the SLT ( even my chi sao experience is limited

Thank you for any assistance you feel able to offer.

One final query: would the San Sik of any WC/VT lineage be useful to me?

Cheers
Stycx

[reneritchie]

The sickle hand is another name of the Dap/Joining hand. Tan can be done inside or outside, a pointed roof sheds rain both ways.

Many of those are similar to Sum Nung's SYS, others not.

Stycx, what you need is a very, very good teacher who can tailor the material to suit your individual specialized needs, and work with you in whatever manner you need to achieve those skills.

Martial arts and teacher are separate abilities and need to be developed specifically. What any individual technique may or may not suit you will only be determined by how good a teacher you find (assuming you work as hard as it sounds like you will :)

[taichi4eva]

What I am wondering is the delivery of the Tan Sau different if it's inside or outside? Basically, the arm is out and the palm is slightly curved out. So would it look different?

I have read your book, Mr. Ritchie, and I think it's great. A student of Tom Wong is training me, and there are slight differences between what I am being taught and what is displayed in your book. I thought perhaps you could explain the solo practice of inside join/ outside join with more details. For me, the pictures and the description are hard to follow. Also, my teacher does not use any stance changes.

[Edmund]

What I am wondering is the delivery of the Tan Sau different if it's inside or outside? Basically, the arm is out and the palm is slightly curved out. So would it look different?


Perceptive question. I'd say yes, it looks different. With the tan sau on the outside the need to turn the palm out is less.

[KPM]

Hi Styzx!

I am a disabled man Spina Bifida (L4L5 for the technically minded).

--If your level is L4/L5, then I will assume that your strength around the hips is reasonably intact.

my legs kinda naturally fall into the YCKYM stance ( I call it the you can kiss your mother to remember it) when I stand without my crutches

---Yes. Again...I have to make assumptions here....I would bet you have a some spasticity that actually helps with rooting and stability in the YGKYM. Unfortunately, that same spasticity likely limits your mobility.

The help I need is as follows:-
1. Can I generate the right kind of power if
a) my hip tortion is not great though I can kind of shunt it forward with the strike a little

---Using your hip function will be key for you. Do a search for my posts in the past on "short power" and on the "wave" action. Power generation can be initiated at the tan tien and conveyed by the hips (this is called using the Kua). This is transmitted up the spine as a "wave" or a "whipping" action, can be accentuated by using the shoulders, and is finally expressed thru the arms to the hands. Picture your lower body as the wooden handle of a whip that remains relatively stationary....your Kua/hips as the area where the handle meets the leather portion of the whip....your torso, shoulders and upper arms as the body of the whip itself....and your forearms/hands as the "popper" at the tip of the whip.
You can also use this type of mechanics to "angle" to your opponent even if you do not do a full pivot.

I try to cultivate as many WC attributes as I can based on the SLT

---Nothing wrong with that, given that SLT is the core of the system! :)

( even my chi sao experience is limited

---Not sure why that should be, given that the majority of chi sau in the Yip Man system is done square on to your partner.


Thank you for any assistance you feel able to offer.

---As Rene pointed out, it will be very important for you to find an instructor that is willing to work directly with you to learn your abilities and limitations and then "customize" the WCK system for you as an individual. But you are on the right track. I agree, that for someone in your situation WCK is an excellent choice as a martial art to study.

One final query: would the San Sik of any WC/VT lineage be useful to me?

---Absolutely! Many of the initial San Sik are done standing in YGKYM without footwork. Then there are two-man drills that compliment what they teach. Be creative. Make your own San Sik to practice based on techniques from SLT adapted to your own abilities. If you can't find a good instructor to work with you, at least find a willing training partner and work with what you do know to "functionalize" it for yourself.

Hope that helps

Keith

[reneritchie]

taichi4eva,

Please, just Rene is fine :)

The way I learned, inside and outside Tan Sao in terms of SYS look the same, absent a partner to give them context, you would probably have difficulty telling one from the other. There are other hands which look similar with slight differences, like Tun Sao. If you're training Sum Nung's system, you'll get through all of them.

The Chinese have a great expression: big same small different. Having been lucky enough to train with Sigung and meet some of the my sibaksuk, even though none of them are (or could ever be) exact clones, I can his reflection and his amazing attention to detail in all of them.

The book is just a frozen snap-shot of my understanding and ability to communicate at the time, and all responsibility for errors is mine for those very reason. If it leads people to train with any of Sum Nung's students or grandstudents, where they can get the direct, one-on-one attention, then that's all I can hope for.

Regards to the family out west (and below the equator, Ed :)

[taichi4eva]

I'm a college student so I thought I would be respectful...

Thank you for your response.

[Edmund]

Regards to the family out west (and below the equator, Ed :)

Due to the international timeline, I consider myself in the Far East (and Far South) :)

My reasoning on the outside tan sao is that since the contact is going to be on the inside of your arm, it's not as important to turn the palm out if you get my drift.

[reneritchie]

I can catch how the Ed is drifting :)

[wongjunlam]

Something that has not been addressed, or I might have over looked. is The person originally asking this question was asking about the San Sik. This could of course be as everybody was saying the Sahp Yih Sik. But after Byu Ji, and before the Wooden Dummy there is another San Sik section which contains over (counting in head) 30 different San Sik techniques.

as to answer the original question about whether you could pratice them as a form. There is no real reason why not, just tack on the normal way to open the horse in the forms. But What benifits would it give you? Personally I prefer to run through them one at a time with a minimum of 100 reps for each.

WJL

[reneritchie]

But after Byu Ji, and before the Wooden Dummy there is another San Sik section which contains over (counting in head) 30 different San Sik techniques.

Do you mean Hong Jong (dummy form done in the air?) Otherwise, there's no other formal San Sik extent in Sum Nung's teachings, but it may be something some of his students do. Many of his students went their own way both during and after his life, and you can find all sorts of extra sets some of them developed (some very good ones too).

You can find 108 rattan ring sets, chaotic steps sets, different types of dummies, and a variety of other stuff.

[kung fu fighter]

Yuen Kay-San himself integrated Fung Siu-Ching's close range San Sik into the longer bridge system he learned from Fok Bo-Chuen. It sounds like Yuen sijo was interested primarily in results, and was open minded enough to seek out teachers who could fill what he felt were gaps in his skills. Sigung kept improving his system right into his latter days. He was an applicant in the truest sense of the word.

Hi Rene,
What's your defination of the longer bridge system of wing chun that YKS learned from Fok Bo-Chuen. Can you give us some examples of this and how it works.
What's the difference between long bridge and short bridge wing chun in terms of generating power with the bridges and footwork?

Thanks
Kung fu fighter

[reneritchie]

Long Bride = what you see in Leung Jan/Yip Man punching, kicking
Close Body = what you see in Chi Sim standing grappling

[kung fu fighter]

Thanks Rene,
So what you are saying is short range in at the shoulder range and long range is at the elbow and wrist ranges. Short range is more for standup grappling throws/chi na and long range is more for striking.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Rene,


According to our idea we do not consider the fist range methods Long Bridge.

As Leung sifu stated:

The short bridge attack must stick closely to the body!

Long bridge for us would be more like Wing Chun big spreading wing stuff or what most see in Choy Li Fut swinging actions!


Peace,

[reneritchie]

Hey Jim,

That's just how I heard the terms used in YKS/SN, probably because Fung's stuff got a lot closer than Fok's.

Everything is relative. :)

[Jim Roselando]

RR,


I think I also heard Leung Sheung guys used that term! Long Bridge!

NBD tho! Basically same idea being discussed!

:p

Thought I would give you Fung POV.


Peace,

[kj]

I think I also heard Leung Sheung guys used that term! Long Bridge!

I think I heard those Leung Sheung guys use that term once (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37513) or twice (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=601013#post601013) too. ;) :)

Regards,
- kj

[wongjunlam]

Hey Renie.

Kind of Yes and no. The hong jong gets taught after it. AFAIK most teachers out here in between BJ and HJ teach a bunch of san sik techniques. Most are found with in the dummy form. they are trained in an individual manner though, not in one continuous flowing motion. Pretty much like how you practice the Sahp Yih Sik. It might just be something my sifu does. I will check, although I believe people like Siu Lei do it too. I can see some of them coming from the Rattan ring too.

WJL






But after Byu Ji, and before the Wooden Dummy there is another San Sik section which contains over (counting in head) 30 different San Sik techniques.

Do you mean Hong Jong (dummy form done in the air?) Otherwise, there's no other formal San Sik extent in Sum Nung's teachings, but it may be something some of his students do. Many of his students went their own way both during and after his life, and you can find all sorts of extra sets some of them developed (some very good ones too).

You can find 108 rattan ring sets, chaotic steps sets, different types of dummies, and a variety of other stuff.

[reneritchie]

Hi Keith,

When I trained with my sifu, and ever so briefly with sigung, every movement in the sets, from Siu Lien Tao on, was taken apart and broken down in San Sao and Chi Sao drills. In that sense, in addition to SYS, there were countless other Sik strewn throughout the training cycle. You supposedly didn't 'graduate' a training set until you could use every movement in application. :)

[wongjunlam]

Hey Rene,

That sounds about right ;)

Keith



Hi Keith,

When I trained with my sifu, and ever so briefly with sigung, every movement in the sets, from Siu Lien Tao on, was taken apart and broken down in San Sao and Chi Sao drills. In that sense, in addition to SYS, there were countless other Sik strewn throughout the training cycle. You supposedly didn't 'graduate' a training set until you could use every movement in application. :)