good dit da jow??

[wind draft]

Does anyone know where I can order dit da jow ingredients that is reliable? I've seen Ancient Way Martial Art website. The 30 dollar package that has ingredient to make dit da jow. Is that good?

Any reliable source to get the ingredients are great appreciate it. Thank you!

[shirkers1]

mantisbxr@aol.com

He has the best stuff period. Just tell him what you're looking for and he'll hook you up. More bang for your buck as well.

[Oso]

ditto to shirkers1...I haven't actualy tried it yet but I met Shifu Biggie and am making a purchase this week.










lol, sounds like a dope deal...

[batgirl]

I just bought di da jow herbs from whitetigerkungfu.com, $20 + $5 shipping, makes 1 gallon of jow, I received it in a week. (from ca to east coast via usps)

[Vasquez]

I just bought di da jow herbs from whitetigerkungfu.com, $20 + $5 shipping, makes 1 gallon of jow, I received it in a week. (from ca to east coast via usps)

why would a girl need di da jow?

[David Jamieson]

why would a girl need di da jow?

For the same reason a boy would need it?

[Dale Dugas]

V,

What a total sexist remark. Again you prove to all here that your nothing but a clown. Keep it up brother as your not scoring any brownie points.

LOL.......

Why not come out with "hey only women can practice the secret skirt kung fu and they do not need to beat their limbs against each other or bags of steel shot to condition themselves"...

Your trolling is slipping a bit.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Lama Pai Sifu]

A good point to remember:

There is not one Dit Da Jao for everything. Make sure you are buying a Jao for a specific type of training.

My late Sifu, Chan Tai-San was one of the Directors of the Chinese Herbal Medical Association in NYC. He was also an herbal doctor in the Chinese army. Although I do not know how to write a prescription for Dit Da Jao, I have several formulas for different types of training.

Types:

Generic: Good for Bruises, Sprains, Training of Forearms and Shins.
Palm: Used specifically for training of the Palm
Finger: Used for finger training (striking with tips of fingers)
Knuckle: Used to train all knuckle joints of the hand
Body: Used for "Pai Da Gung" or the Self Hit Skill of Iron Body Training

If someone tries to sell you a Jao that is 'good for everything', you are most likely buying some snake oil.

Joa, to be effective, must also be aged a specific time. Each formula must 'sit' in rice wine (Mi Jao) for anywhere between 30 days, 6 months or up to 1 year. It depends on the formula.

I personally have 2.5 gallons of Iron Palm Jao that has been 'fermenting' since the day I sealed the jar in March 1992! I can't wait to use it!

If you expect to get results from your training, you must have the proper medicine. I'm not sure where these people get their formulas from, I would guess that some of them come from local Chinese Doctors. The only thing is that the Doctors making these formulas are not always martial artsists, and are usually just providing a standard 'bruise' medicine. Always ask about the source of the formula.

I have never sold herbs in their 'raw' form before. I guess I would if someone wanted them, but we have always sold it bottled up (4 oz. bottles). We sell one botle for $15 and 2 for $25. Depending on the application, they last for several months.

Feel free to email me if you have any questions.


PS, I am not an expert on Chinese Medicine. In fact, I have a limited working knowledge and I barely know what a lot of the individual ingredients do. I do know that it does take a special and specific knowledge to create a Dit Da Jao. Just because a Sifu is Chinese, and knows a bit about medicine, it does NOT mean he or she knows how to make a good Dit Da Jao, or several ones for that matter. Buyer Beware! Always get some background. And the old, "this formula has been passed down for centuries...." story doesn't cut it.

[Vasquez]

A good point to remember:

There is not one Dit Da Jao for everything. Make sure you are buying a Jao for a specific type of training.

My late Sifu, Chan Tai-San was one of the Directors of the Chinese Herbal Medical Association in NYC. He was also an herbal doctor in the Chinese army. Although I do not know how to write a prescription for Dit Da Jao, I have several formulas for different types of training.

Types:

Generic: Good for Bruises, Sprains, Training of Forearms and Shins.
Palm: Used specifically for training of the Palm
Finger: Used for finger training (striking with tips of fingers)
Knuckle: Used to train all knuckle joints of the hand
Body: Used for "Pai Da Gung" or the Self Hit Skill of Iron Body Training

If someone tries to sell you a Jao that is 'good for everything', you are most likely buying some snake oil.

Joa, to be effective, must also be aged a specific time. Each formula must 'sit' in rice wine (Mi Jao) for anywhere between 30 days, 6 months or up to 1 year. It depends on the formula.

I personally have 2.5 gallons of Iron Palm Jao that has been 'fermenting' since the day I sealed the jar in March 1992! I can't wait to use it!

If you expect to get results from your training, you must have the proper medicine. I'm not sure where these people get their formulas from, I would guess that some of them come from local Chinese Doctors. The only thing is that the Doctors making these formulas are not always martial artsists, and are usually just providing a standard 'bruise' medicine. Always ask about the source of the formula.

I have never sold herbs in their 'raw' form before. I guess I would if someone wanted them, but we have always sold it bottled up (4 oz. bottles). We sell one botle for $15 and 2 for $25. Depending on the application, they last for several months.

Feel free to email me if you have any questions.


PS, I am not an expert on Chinese Medicine. In fact, I have a limited working knowledge and I barely know what a lot of the individual ingredients do. I do know that it does take a special and specific knowledge to create a Dit Da Jao. Just because a Sifu is Chinese, and knows a bit about medicine, it does NOT mean he or she knows how to make a good Dit Da Jao, or several ones for that matter. Buyer Beware! Always get some background. And the old, "this formula has been passed down for centuries...." story doesn't cut it.

I does amaze me that secrets passed down over the centuries can cost $15 to $25

[Vasquez]

V,

What a total sexist remark. Again you prove to all here that your nothing but a clown. Keep it up brother as your not scoring any brownie points.

LOL.......

Why not come out with "hey only women can practice the secret skirt kung fu and they do not need to beat their limbs against each other or bags of steel shot to condition themselves"...

Your trolling is slipping a bit.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

blah blah blah ......... TTTH

[Dale Dugas]

No, not blah blah blah you clown.

Be a man and not the little boy pretending to be one.

Talk to the hand? What are you a Fran Drescher fan or something?

Your response shows us your true colors. A young untrained fool who hides behind silly arse abbreviations.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

I'll talk to you any time V. You make me and others laugh. Ill give you points for that.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Vasquez]

No, not blah blah blah you clown.

Be a man and not the little boy pretending to be one.

Talk to the hand? What are you a Fran Drescher fan or something?

Your response shows us your true colors. A young untrained fool who hides behind silly arse abbreviations.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

I'll talk to you any time V. You make me and others laugh. Ill give you points for that.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

One gets strong through meditation and training. Dit da, concentration, time leads to good chi kung and good chi kung is the secret to true strength.

[Dale Dugas]

V,

Im impressed. You posted something that is relatively true. Though be careful with concentration. You can lead your yi the wrong way with too much of that.

Stand more and post less and your fu will progress leaps and bounds. That is if you have any fu. Most here would dare to say, not...

In Boston,


Dale Dugas

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hey, Dit Da Jao is not an ancient secret, anymore than Kung Fu is. But, we all can attest to the fact that there is good KF and bad KF. The same goes for Medicine. Some formulas are very advanced; they have complex combinations of herbs to produce specific results - specific to a specific TYPE of training. Others again, are nothing more than medicine to break up coagulated (I can't spell) blood and help with Chi/Heih flow. Still others help to increase bone strength. Make sure your Jao is from a source that agrees with this philosophy. ***Disclaimer: I am not right about everything regarding KF, but I try not to speak about things that I am not extremely knowledgable or sure of. Use your own sense and ask lots of questions.****

Some ingredients are very hard to get (illegal) in this country. Rhino horn powder, Tiger bones, etc. In some cases, people subsitute these ingredients for others (might be weaker, not as good) that share similiar qualities. It can seriously effect the Jao.

I don't sell raw herbs because some of the stuff is not legal. (Shhh) I don't even have a formula where all the ingredients are legal. (Shh again!)

And as far as the price on bottles, I think it's reasonable. I wouldn't sell the formulas though. A sifu should provide thier students (at a reasonable price) the tools needed to train and to stay healthy.

[Dale Dugas]

Sifu Parella,

I agree with you that there are specific formulae for specific training. Way too many people bought into the Brian Gray one formula bit a while back. Not even a decent bruise formula it was.

Iron Hand/Palm medicine is totally different than a injury formula. They of course share some herbs(some hard to get in the US) but they also have different herbs for different actions.

Thanks for your input.

In Lama Pai do you ever use vinegar as a base for your jows? I have seen many Hakka as well as other southern arts use it instead of alcohol.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[shirkers1]

Please ignore vasquez he's a turd burglar.



Lama pai has it right....


That is why I said to let mantisbxr@aol.com know what you need and what it's for and he'll set you straight... There are even different types of bruise medicine. Allergic mixes, hot mixes, etc. So there will be something for you just let him know what you are needing it for and he'll get you the right stuff. You won't be dissapointed...

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Dale,

I have heard of some people using Vinegar, I think the Doo Wai, Jim Lacey people (bok fu pai) and I've read some stuff in magazines. From my limited knowledge of Chinese medicine and my Sifu's extensive knowledge (I asked him the same question once) in NO WAY ARE YOU TO USE VINEGAR! Alcohol releases the essence or the quality of the herbs. Vinegar does not. I know some people do it different, but I will listen to what my sifu said. As I mentioned before, he was a doctor of Chinese medicine. And a very respected one at that.

Additionally, I hope everyone on this thread knows what Dit Da Jao means.

Dit - (Deet) To Fall
Da - (Da) To Hit
Jao - (Jow) Wine

Literally, Dit Da Jao is - "The medicine you use when you fall, or get hit."

It is not Dit Da 'Vinegar" lol

Also, Chinese medicine itself is sometimes refered to as "dit da".

Best of luck in your training!

[Jamesbond_007]

I have used many jow receipes and my favorite is found on eBay. A store by the name of Shen Martial Arts sells a lot of different jows. They are all really good, but my favorite is called Shen jow. I love it!!! It is a very nice and smooth formula. You can by it premade, or the herbs to make 1 gallon. Personally, I like to make my own so I by the 1 gallon packs. The herbs are extrememly fresh too. When I first bought my first gallon pack, the herbs were very soft and fresh. I was used to hard and dry herbs and was a little worried, but I found out the fresher the herbs, the better the jow will be. Currently, I have 5 gallons of this jow brewing at my home for personal use. It is great stuff

[Oso]

Sifu Parella, do you feel there is a big difference between using the chinese wine and neutral grain spirits?

[shirkers1]

Sifu Parella, do you feel there is a big difference between using the chinese wine and neutral grain spirits?


oso, not that I'm answering for Sifu Parella.. But here is what I've picked up so far and I could be wrong.. Best would be to ask mike himself or the person that is making the jow for you as to what you need to mix it with... Different formulas are geared towards different alcohol for mixing... I know mike uses seagrams 7 for his main batch of bruise medicine.. This stuff I have brewing now that is a very "HOT" mixture uses vodka...

I had some of that stuff on when I was at the Hu Lin seminar in akron and my arm was on fire the whole time.. I ended up having to wash it off because it was just too much after while.. :)

[Oso]

interesting. I was surely going to follow Mike's directions, just curious. with what I've had before the direction was to use cheap vodka because it was more close to 'nuetral'.

i wonder what sort of proof levels chinese wine comes in?

'A think 'A need to do an experiment....

:D

[Dale Dugas]

Sifu Parella,

Jim Lacy is nothing but a crook, con and lying thief. His herbs are nothing but made up foolishness.

GM Doo Wai does not use vinegar in his jows. He advocates vodka or rice wine.

Sifu RIchard Wier King of the Ark Wong school has a jow that smells like they have some vinegar in it. Sifu Doc Fai Wong had an iron palm before liniment that used Vinegar as the base, hence I wanted to ask you as your style of Lama is similar in concepts to CLF.

I agree with Mark(Shirkers1), that you use different jows(alcohol) for different formula. I have used whiskey for my iron hand formulas and clear alcohol for my injury jows.

Shen Martial Arts makes some decent pre made jows as well offering whole herbs to make your own. Mario who runs Shen also has one of the better collection of hard to find training material on a cross sections of different kung fu styles/systems. Give him a look see on ebay: search Shen Martial Arts Store. I will write more about his video selections in other threads.

I know Mike Biggie personally, as well as many others who are involved in herbal medicine all around the world. Mike very much like myself has been fortunate enough to acquire the formulae for many different kinds of medicine used within the martial arts. I count my blessings that those who shared these 'recipes" felt I was worthy. Mike has some of the best formulae that I have used personally. Though like Shirkers1 was saying, some can be too hot or too strong for certain people. You need to find one that works for you and not against you.

As Sifu Parella warned us before. One jow mentality means you have limited training in herbal medicine.

Lacy, gray and others have hoodwinked people who have no knowledge that the low level or total made up medicine they sell is the bomb. Stay clear of Brian Gray, Jim Lacy and their toadies. Ive flung enough mud in the past, so if you want the lowdown on those fools email me or pm me off forum.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[David Jamieson]

If I can interject in this... wait a minute, I already did!

anyway...

I always understood Dit Da Jow to be:

Tiet Da Jiao

where tiet is teet or "Iron"
Da is "hit or strike"
Jiao is "wine"

or "Iron hit wine"

Never heard the fall part of it before.

also, they do have different names than iron hit wine when they are for superficial muscle ache and have more camphor and less blood stasis release herbs.
Some are for deep penetration and the massage techniques used in application of the stuff differs.

done!

[Lama Pai Sifu]

David, thanks for your post. Although I am an American, I speak Cantonese (My Sifu, Grandmaster Chan Tai-San, unfortunatly did not speak English) and can read and write a bit of Chinese as well. (aww..who am I kidding...my writing sucks!)

Anyway, the first character "DIT" is, I assure you, to Fall. The whole "IRON" thing is just a mistranslation coined many years ago by people who assumed the word was Iron. There are lots a Hom0phones in Cantonese (or any Chinese Language) and if you are not sensitive to the 'tonality' of the word or dialect, you can easily mistranslate a word.

Again, just so we are clear, there is no "IRON HIT WINE." And if someone says there is, they are full of it! As I mentioned in a previous post, the term DIT DA, is actually used do descripe many aspects of Chinese medicine, BEYOND formulas associated with KF training.

I hope this helps!

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I dont' think that the type of acholol matters. My Sifu said that any clear grain alcohol would do. Although sometimes I buy MY JAO (Chinese Rice Wine) by the case, many times I have made batches with Vodka. I haven't noticed any difference in the potency of the medicine, just the smell.

[shirkers1]

I dont' think that the type of acholol matters. My Sifu said that any clear grain alcohol would do. Although sometimes I buy MY JAO (Chinese Rice Wine) by the case, many times I have made batches with Vodka. I haven't noticed any difference in the potency of the medicine, just the smell.

But as you probably already know, some jows such as iron palm work on the sense of smell as well.. So that being said the "flavor" or "smell" of the alcohol could enhance the jow.... but yes they have to be over a certain alcohol content for sure....

I was also told that if you heat the alcohol up before you add it to the batch it doesn't take as long to mix.... After 2-4 months the herbs are used up and can be drained off...

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Although I have been involved in CMA for over 24 years, I have never heard of the "smell" enhancing the Jao.

As far as 'heating' the alcohol before you use it,...that is a NO NO that I'm am quite sure of. I think you need to speak to a Chinese Doctor/Herbalist and I'm quite sure that he/she will tell you the same thing. I have also heard of people trying to 'crush' the herbs up to bring out their inner 'essence'. That is also a NO NO.

There are obviously many different ideas (mostly by Americans, mind you) concerning Jao. I don't think that there are as many variations regarding formulas as people think. I do think that there are a lot of scammers and fakes out there though. Buyer Beware!

[David Jamieson]

ok, i can see how it's Dit as in Fall and not Teet.

What really interests me is the sheer amount of errors like this simple little misnomer/mistranslation running through Chinese martial arts that brings me to thinking that I am not sure how much of it has much use to us anymore.

Why are these little falsehoods perpetuated?
Why are there so many lies surrounding CMA?
How come there are so many half truths?

and so on?

Fake monks, questionable lineages, techniques that don't cut it against resisting opponents, egos, saving face and the list goes on.

I enjoy the practice of martial arts. And have many years of practice in. It is frustrating to have to go back and review everything, have it checked by the closest person I can find to competent and then proceed to toss out all the garbage of which there is startlingly...a lot of.

I think I'll just cut my losses and move fully into mma. :D

[Vasquez]

ok, i can see how it's Dit as in Fall and not Teet.

What really interests me is the sheer amount of errors like this simple little misnomer/mistranslation running through Chinese martial arts that brings me to thinking that I am not sure how much of it has much use to us anymore.

Why are these little falsehoods perpetuated?
Why are there so many lies surrounding CMA?
How come there are so many half truths?

and so on?

Fake monks, questionable lineages, techniques that don't cut it against resisting opponents, egos, saving face and the list goes on.

I enjoy the practice of martial arts. And have many years of practice in. It is frustrating to have to go back and review everything, have it checked by the closest person I can find to competent and then proceed to toss out all the garbage of which there is startlingly...a lot of.

I think I'll just cut my losses and move fully into mma. :D

what are you going on about? like you're having a bad day

[David Jamieson]

what are you going on about? like you're having a bad day


All I'm saying is that there is a perpetuation of fallacies in Kungfu like almost no other martial art.

You don't find nonsense like is found in CMA in lot of other martial arts. I shouldn't really say "cma", but just the "classical and traditional martial arts" in general.

It is astounding at how much of it is just pure bs.
To the point where I will not recomend training in traditional martial arts and instead there needs to be a component of rbsd , along with sound stand up, clinch and ground training(mma) or there just isn't a lot of value in it.

If there is no realistic application work then it just ain't realistic period.
And the language barrier thing is a cluster-hump all on it's own.

[Vasquez]

All I'm saying is that there is a perpetuation of fallacies in Kungfu like almost no other martial art.

You don't find nonsense like is found in CMA in lot of other martial arts. I shouldn't really say "cma", but just the "classical and traditional martial arts" in general.

It is astounding at how much of it is just pure bs.
To the point where I will not recomend training in traditional martial arts and instead there needs to be a component of rbsd , along with sound stand up, clinch and ground training(mma) or there just isn't a lot of value in it.

If there is no realistic application work then it just ain't realistic period.
And the language barrier thing is a cluster-hump all on it's own.

you should hear yourself speak sometimes. LOL. TTTH

[shirkers1]

Although I have been involved in CMA for over 24 years, I have never heard of the "smell" enhancing the Jao.

As far as 'heating' the alcohol before you use it,...that is a NO NO that I'm am quite sure of. I think you need to speak to a Chinese Doctor/Herbalist and I'm quite sure that he/she will tell you the same thing. I have also heard of people trying to 'crush' the herbs up to bring out their inner 'essence'. That is also a NO NO.

There are obviously many different ideas (mostly by Americans, mind you) concerning Jao. I don't think that there are as many variations regarding formulas as people think. I do think that there are a lot of scammers and fakes out there though. Buyer Beware!


Why is heating the alcohol a no no?

Wouldn't you say that crushing up "certain" ingrediants allow it to desolve in the mix faster than leaving it in a big hard lump of mineral etc? I don't think it's a matter of essence just a matter of time. I could be wrong but maybe that's why it's taking 2 years for your jows to cure? Or maybe that's what your mixes require I don't know, I have limited knowledge on the subject..

By sense of smell I mean there are certain ingrediants that are in iron palm jows that affect the sense of smell. When you do your internal exorcises and while doing the actual iron palm exorcises you are breathing in that smell. After a while the body remembers that smell and starts the healing process on it's own before you even apply the actual jow to the hand.

Or in your opinion is this wrong as well?

In your experience with jows, what does the iron palm jow actually do? What are the ingredients in it used for and how does it help in the whole process of practicing iron palm? I know what I think on the matter just wondering what you think..

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Hi, I don't actually know why heating is a NO NO. I do not that I had asked my Sifu many years ago about it and he made it clear to me that heating or crushing the herbs was bad. Again, he was one of the directors of the Chinese Herbal Medicine Association in NY's Chinatown. He was a master of Chinese medicine and I would not question his experience.

As far as the sense of smell and training? I don't know, people are really big into aroma therapy too. But what happens if you train it outside? Or if it's windy? I think that someone might have told you that, that the smell is important, but again, go ask an herbalist. I called up my good friend Dr. Yeh in NY regarding this, and he said that the smell is not important. He taught Doctors in Beijing and is a great doctor. I have worked with him for over 10 years. I take his advice very seriously.

I think that many Americans, with limited exp. in Chinese Medicine, try to either experiment or guess, when it comes to Dit Da Jao. Chinese medicine, the same as Chinese Martial arts, is not really open to as much interpretation as people think. (Obviously, this is my opinion) There are not 50 ways to throw the same punch, kick, whatever. There is usally one right way, and several other ways that people passed on that were wrong. I think the fact that 95% of all KF practitioners think that the DIT is TEET as in Iron, is just a symptom of a bigger problem here.

Sounds like an opportunity for a different thread.....

[Oso]

another question...I'm assuming that the herbs used are a one shot deal...there's no using the herbs for a second batch, right?

This will be the first time I've actually brewed my own....

[Dale Dugas]

Guys,

I have found some formulae using the iron(tit/tieh) character in the name but its was for Tit Za Jeurng Jow Fa/Tieh Sha Zhang Jiu Fa, "Iron Palm liniment recipe". I think some people have limited ability to read and write Chinese( I have a degree in Japanese but can read and write Hanzi/Kanji).

Maybe some people labelled the formula as Iron(palm) Strike Wine Formula as a label and not an actual name for it?? We could sit for hours and ponder this.

Transliteration is a big problem not only for herbal medicine but for the rest of CMA as well. Is it Choy Lee Fut, Choyh Lei Faht or Choi Li Fat? Dear lord...

Watch out Vasquez will come respond with anothe "pithy" sentence full of wisdom, LOL......

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[shirkers1]

Hi, I don't actually know why heating is a NO NO. I do not that I had asked my Sifu many years ago about it and he made it clear to me that heating or crushing the herbs was bad. Again, he was one of the directors of the Chinese Herbal Medicine Association in NY's Chinatown. He was a master of Chinese medicine and I would not question his experience.

As far as the sense of smell and training? I don't know, people are really big into aroma therapy too. But what happens if you train it outside? Or if it's windy? I think that someone might have told you that, that the smell is important, but again, go ask an herbalist. I called up my good friend Dr. Yeh in NY regarding this, and he said that the smell is not important. He taught Doctors in Beijing and is a great doctor. I have worked with him for over 10 years. I take his advice very seriously.

...


Thanks for your input.. well if what I've been using works and that's the way he does it then I'm not going to argue with it.. If someone has something better out there I'll be happy to try it. :D As for right now the info and batches I've used so far are the best I've tried and that's good enough for me.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Yes, people called it IRON because they associate the medicine with IRON PALM TRAINING. Chinese do not. This has been written about by either uninformed american authors or frauds; the concept of IRON STRIKE WINE. Articles written in magazines and crappy books by people trying to set themselves up as experts.

Frankly, I find it deplorable.

Look, not everyone is going to have access to authentic information. Some people learn from low-level studenst of a teacher with a good reputation. Some people learn from top-disciples of the same teacher. The knowledge and abilities of one vs. the other is a world apart. I have seen more scammy stuff in the Chinese MA world than I have seen good.

Half the Chinese teachers today, who teach in the country, came here when they were in the late teens and early twenties. They studied MA in Hong Kong or China for a few years. Then they come to America. They have slanty eyes so everyone thinks they are good. They teach and grow old. Now they are here for 30 more years, teaching. WOW> So and So Master, has been teaching in the NY/CA area for over 30 years! He must be good. Hey,..I know people who have been driving a car for 30 years, and they still suck at it!

Moral of the story, believe none of what you hear, half of what you read. Do your due dilegence and research what you are told. Find reputable sources and learn from them.

Again, another rant for another tread!

And just remember, getting results is good. Complacency is not. Looking for higher levels and better training will enable you to be your best. Just a thought.

[shirkers1]

Hi, I don't actually know why heating is a NO NO. I do not that I had asked my Sifu many years ago about it and he made it clear to me that heating or crushing the herbs was bad. Again, he was one of the directors of the Chinese Herbal Medicine Association in NY's Chinatown. He was a master of Chinese medicine and I would not question his experience.

As far as the sense of smell and training? I don't know, people are really big into aroma therapy too. But what happens if you train it outside? Or if it's windy? I think that someone might have told you that, that the smell is important, but again, go ask an herbalist. I called up my good friend Dr. Yeh in NY regarding this, and he said that the smell is not important. He taught Doctors in Beijing and is a great doctor. I have worked with him for over 10 years. I take his advice very seriously.

I think that many Americans, with limited exp. in Chinese Medicine, try to either experiment or guess, when it comes to Dit Da Jao. Chinese medicine, the same as Chinese Martial arts, is not really open to as much interpretation as people think. (Obviously, this is my opinion) There are not 50 ways to throw the same punch, kick, whatever. There is usally one right way, and several other ways that people passed on that were wrong. I think the fact that 95% of all KF practitioners think that the DIT is TEET as in Iron, is just a symptom of a bigger problem here.

Sounds like an opportunity for a different thread.....

What if you practice inside? Just because your inside or out It doesn't change the fact that it has that quality to the jow. The fact of the matter is that it's still there and is an important process to the whole training. There is a right way to train iron palm and many wrong ways. I can guarantee not many people do it the right way, and the jows used are part of that.

Back to the dit da jow questions.. :D With what you said above, and I'm not trying to attack you at all so don't get upset. Just wondering with the examples you've given before could it be possible that you need to ask yourself the same questions about who you are asking? "no don't do that, it's wrong" doesn't cut it, why is it wrong and why do you use certain things in the jow?

When I asked why something is used I was shown a medical journal as to what that specific herb is used for and why a background on individual items so on and so forth. I was lucky enough to sit in for a weekend and see different batches made and what went into them and why. So to say one is right and one is wrong might be a stretch in this case. When you are dealing with nature and medicine it can be cut and dry why certain herbs etc are used and why. Just some thought.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I understand what you are saying. I however, do not have to understand all aspects of herbal medicine in order to accept certain facts. There are lots of medical (american medicine) facts that we accept today. I'm not sure that I need to understand why we are alergic to certain medicines, I know that it is not good to take them though. I don't understand everything about my cars, but I rely on my mechanic to give me good advice to maintain them or fix them. I think neither one of us will every become doctors of chinese medicine. Let's look at the advice of EXPERTS in the field. That's why we have them. When my doc says don't eat broken glass, I don't need to know all the 'how' and 'why' about what will happen. I trust his advice and his expertise.

As far as the 'inside outside' thing goes, I wrote that to give an example. Are we now making Jao that only works when you can smell it? That's why I mentioned training outside. Would this mean that there are different Jaos for different for both indoor and outdoor training? Or that this Jao works best when you can smell it? If you are training in Iron Palm, the Jao/Medicine must do several things;

1. It first and foremost, be able to bring blood/Chi/Heih into the hands
2. It must allow for the breaking up of clots or coagulated blood from injury
3. It CAN have a specif herb that works as a mild anestetic (no lessen pain)

It order to make these and many others requirements, work, you must have many different herbs. It is not just the herbs that make a formula more effective, but the particular COMBINATION of the herbs. That is what makes the difference between a good Jao and a great Jao.

[shirkers1]

I understand what you are saying. I however, do not have to understand all aspects of herbal medicine in order to accept certain facts. There are lots of medical (american medicine) facts that we accept today. I'm not sure that I need to understand why we are alergic to certain medicines, I know that it is not good to take them though. I don't understand everything about my cars, but I rely on my mechanic to give me good advice to maintain them or fix them. I think neither one of us will every become doctors of chinese medicine. Let's look at the advice of EXPERTS in the field. That's why we have them. When my doc says don't eat broken glass, I don't need to know all the 'how' and 'why' about what will happen. I trust his advice and his expertise.

As far as the 'inside outside' thing goes, I wrote that to give an example. Are we now making Jao that only works when you can smell it? That's why I mentioned training outside. Would this mean that there are different Jaos for different for both indoor and outdoor training? Or that this Jao works best when you can smell it? If you are training in Iron Palm, the Jao/Medicine must do several things;

1. It first and foremost, be able to bring blood/Chi/Heih into the hands
2. It must allow for the breaking up of clots or coagulated blood from injury
3. It CAN have a specif herb that works as a mild anestetic (no lessen pain)

It order to make these and many others requirements, work, you must have many different herbs. It is not just the herbs that make a formula more effective, but the particular COMBINATION of the herbs. That is what makes the difference between a good Jao and a great Jao.


Okay I can agree with your points made..

Well the smell thing was actually a direct link to iron palm medicine.. The iron palm jow that I use has a certain ingrediant in it that affects the sense of smell and helps the body recognize that smell with the healing process.

There are also ingrediants in the iron palm jow that clog the pores of the hand to keep the poisens of the lead shot from entering the blood stream (yes lead shot not monk beads or steel). So when you heat the jow up and soak your hand in it before you begin the training, this is where the clogging occurs as well as beginning the healing process. Additionally the iron palm jow is used for injuries that the body knows is going to happen and you are prepared for through chi kung etc, where as the bruise jow is for injuries that the body doesn't know is going to be inflicted apon it.

[shirkers1]

another question...I'm assuming that the herbs used are a one shot deal...there's no using the herbs for a second batch, right?

This will be the first time I've actually brewed my own....

Oso as far as I know (and I'm sure some might not agree) it's a one shot deal.. Once I drain my batch off the herbs go in the trash.. I sometimes like to keep the stuff in the bottle so it looks cool. :)

Now it sounds like some have different views on how long the jow has to sit for it to be useful etc so that could be a factor.

[Oso]

gotcha. I had a gallon of jow that someone else started. I kept it in the closet and poured some off into a pint container after it had gone through the two months but left the herbs in the gallong jar till it was gone then dumped them. I feel like the stuff got better and better over time...by the time I got to the last of it it had been sitting for something like 12 years.

[shirkers1]

I noticed that it seems like when you use less alcohol (volume wise example half a gallon of alcohol instead of a gallon for a 1 gallon mix of herbs) for the batch it seems to get thicker and more potant as well.. Has a darker look to it and stronger scent.

[Oso]

I just checked, I still have like 1/2 an ounce of it.

I think I'll hang on to it and let Mike give it a sniff the next time I get up there....just to see what he thinks of it. It was something my hung gar teacher made a long time ago.

[PlumDragon]

Wow, lots of questions: Ill try to taclke some of them and clear the misconceptions:

- Heating jow: Some jows ARE heated, and for good reason. While I dont prescribe to the heating during the mixing process, some "warm" jows are heated a small amount prior to use. This has to do with the fact that warm jows (those used for iron palm type exercises) are, from the TCM perspective, "warm in nature". They deal more with "deficient yang", and getting more blood to the area for the healing process. It should be noted that heating or cooling jow TOO much will cause a breakdown in the herbs and isnt advised. Some herbs, like camphor, cant be heated too much or they wille evaporate off the mixture. Same goes for light: Keep your jow out of the light. Some of the herbs can break down with too much exposure to light.

- Cool jow deals more with "deficient yin", removing toxic heat, expelling stagnant blood, removing inflammation. They are more of a general purpose jow, and are used more for older bruises and the like. This is what most of you should be using in your general everyday martial arts classes.

- Herbs are used as a one shot deal unless you want weak jow next time around.

- using less alcohol wont necessarily get you anywhere...Using the *right* mixture of alcohol means there will be more alcohol concentration (surface area) for the herbs to interact with. The result is that youll pull more out of the herbs. Using too little means there wont be enough alcohol for the herbs to continually mix with for maximum extraction. Too much is bad, too little is bad.

- Ive smelled dozens of differnt jows and they all have their own aromatic smell. Some are worse than others, some are more pungent, and some are fairly pleasant. It really just depends on the herbs you use; one different herb can really change the way a jow smells. Going by scent is no way to tell how good a jow is.

I think that takes care of most of the questions.... ;)

[Dale Dugas]

PD,

You want to be very careful with dropping deficiency syndromes as they apply to TCM and TCM theory. One would need to be reading both pulses as well as using the tongue and other diagnostic tools to completely make sure that you have deficient yin versus excessive yang which would be a totally different scenario yet might give you the same physical manifestations.

Making the mistake of yin deficiency and using a cooling or cold jow would dampen the yin even more and cause severe reactions.

Just a word to the wise, paint the whole picture as your leaving out serious amounts of info. Not really geared to this forum as most people dont have a clue when it comes to TCM.

Warming jow is rather an idiosyncratic method that some schools use. Some do not believe in it as again too much heat after beating your hands on a bag of steel shot could potentially cause extra heat to be trapped in the meridians. Many people leave their jows at room temp as an extra protective measure. As well as use expelling breaths along with specific movements to rid the heat from the body.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[PlumDragon]

Agreed Dale. Theres LOTS of information to portray and its difficult to cram it all into a single message; I could have been a bit more clear, although, I think youre assessment is probably slightly too critical for the basic bruise that most of these people will see.

Most of the questions, and hence the answers, had to deal more with nuances of a given style/art and not necessarily diagnoses on certain things. But most people, as you said, dont have a clue, but they need to start somewhere...

[Dale Dugas]

PD,

I had very a very anal teacher at New England School of Acupunture. Hence my reaction as I know people here take things literally. Just wanted to get it out there.

I was trying to convey that Iron Palm training can induce stuck energy in various places within the body if one is doing it incorrectly and many people say they are doing it by video ala Wing Lam or another advertised method versus one on one with a teacher who has knowledge of the medicines and procedures involved.

Lots of qi gong/heih gung are involved to make sure the pathways are open and running smoothly. As well as using very specific and powerful herbal medicines(using an internal medicine as well for the advanced stages) to help make sure the internal energy you are cultivating and "coercing" to your palms from dan tian is not going to play dead halfway there.

Hence my reaction to your ad for an iron skills medicine without mention of the actual training.

My sihing under GM Gene Chicoine, Steve Hamp is going to be releasing his Iron Palm method very soon. It is a method that is very through and produces great results. You can look it up on Http://www.noweightsworkout.com

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Oso]

PD, welcome and thanks for the input.

[PlumDragon]

Thanks Oso, I appreciate the warm welcome! =)


Hence my reaction to your ad for an iron skills medicine without mention of the actual training.
I dont sell the training, I just sell the jow. I use it with great success in my iron palm training, but I dont teach iron palm. Its not yet my place to hand down that knowledge, and when it is, my lessons will be in person, not on some video or downloadable internet site.

[Vasquez]

PD,

I had very a very anal teacher at New England School of Acupunture. Hence my reaction as I know people here take things literally. Just wanted to get it out there.

I was trying to convey that Iron Palm training can induce stuck energy in various places within the body if one is doing it incorrectly and many people say they are doing it by video ala Wing Lam or another advertised method versus one on one with a teacher who has knowledge of the medicines and procedures involved.

Lots of qi gong/heih gung are involved to make sure the pathways are open and running smoothly. As well as using very specific and powerful herbal medicines(using an internal medicine as well for the advanced stages) to help make sure the internal energy you are cultivating and "coercing" to your palms from dan tian is not going to play dead halfway there.

Hence my reaction to your ad for an iron skills medicine without mention of the actual training.

My sihing under GM Gene Chicoine, Steve Hamp is going to be releasing his Iron Palm method very soon. It is a method that is very through and produces great results. You can look it up on Http://www.noweightsworkout.com

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

I've found that chinese doctors who sell the herbs can gie you tips on chi kung / iron palm / poison palm training. If you smooze them a little they are happy to volunteer info.